Open 802: Jungle Oligarchy [Game Over]

[The Bulge]

that's E-1 on the kitty

[MURDERCAT]

The Bulge, Titus, Ahsoka

I hate the back end of the wagon from yesterday

Lol it's literally the exact same wagon on me

[MURDERCAT]

Seriously clidd you are the only one in here that I think is town so if you read this please unvote me or there is basically no way to win from here

[VP Baltar]

Intent to hammer. Murdercat, you better start town spewing

[clidd]

UNVOTE: Murdercat

I still think you're scum, but I'm ok giving you more time to play.

[VP Baltar]

What in the what?

[VP Baltar]

Put your damn vote back clidd

[iamausername]

i definitely thought we were already at E-1 or i would 100% have done that myself

VOTE: Murdercat

that's E-1 once more

[clidd]

It is confusing me why he is not defending himself more vigorously and appealing to me instead of other people who is voting him or outside.

I'm also weak to appeals, so..

[clidd]

Idk, just do what you have to.

[VP Baltar]

I'll give MC a few hours to put some reads out and to respond to username. If I don't see that, it's hammer time

[MURDERCAT]

What in particular do you want me to respond to?

[iamausername]

i guess i would like to see some honest thoughts from Murdercat on who the wolves are

you can even frame it in terms of still pretending to be town if you really want

[MURDERCAT]

lmao

[VP Baltar]

other gut feeling from rereading stuff: Murdercat is totally mafia. besides his generally conflict avoiding nature that i noted yesterday, there were a few weird interactions i picked up on with the BM/galaxii slot. there's a steady stream of "hey, BM is sorta scummy" posts with no real effort to do anything with this (43, 199, 348 and 399), then in 679 listing his opinions on everyone he just sort of... forgets to have a conclusion on the slot? and in 712, galaxii is somehow right in the middle of his reads, equal to VP who "replaced into a meh slot and towns it up". this doesn't feel like a real progression of reads on a slot that did basically nothing at any point.

then there's 728 as a response to the wagon starting on galaxii which is just wretched, given his apparent thoughts on VP. and then he made a big show of giving intent to hammer instead of just getting on with it, presumably while he and his other partner scrambled to figure out a new hitlist now that the Titus/Klyne dichotomy had dissolved.

[VP Baltar]

And I agree with username, who are the wolves MC?

[The Bulge]

it would be cool if iv were here

[MURDERCAT]

I'm responding let me post please

[VP Baltar]

it would be cool if iv were here

Waiting for iv to actually do something today after getting a reprieve yesterday.

[MURDERCAT]

it does not sit well with me that Titus and Klyne went hard after each other yesterday, and now both are on Plus today. my instinct is that one of them is a wolf who genuinely thought the other was mafia, but changed their mind after the flip. inclined to think that is Titus, because there's no particular reason for wolf!Klyne to stop thinking Titus is mafia as far as i can tell. still think Klyne being on the hitlist means he is not mafia, so i guess he's actually town.

other gut feeling from rereading stuff: Murdercat is totally mafia. besides his generally conflict avoiding nature that i noted yesterday, there were a few weird interactions i picked up on with the BM/galaxii slot. there's a steady stream of "hey, BM is sorta scummy" posts with no real effort to do anything with this (43, 199, 348 and 399), then in 679 listing his opinions on everyone he just sort of... forgets to have a conclusion on the slot? and in 712, galaxii is somehow right in the middle of his reads, equal to VP who "replaced into a meh slot and towns it up". this doesn't feel like a real progression of reads on a slot that did basically nothing at any point.

then there's 728 as a response to the wagon starting on galaxii which is just wretched, given his apparent thoughts on VP. and then he made a big show of giving intent to hammer instead of just getting on with it, presumably while he and his other partner scrambled to figure out a new hitlist now that the Titus/Klyne dichotomy had dissolved.

pedit: ok, Murdercat and Titus both posted a bunch while i was writing this up. my conclusions are really not at all challenged by these posts. i think we want to aim for a wolf today, but i also think Titus might be at E-1 already?

I'm curious if people actually read these posts when username posted this. I am quoting them all here with context so you have no excuse.

Titus is my best guess for scum on the wagon atm. Weird sheep without comment, and then the fuss about E-1 without unvoting.
MURDERCAT's vote seems NAI, and tbh I'd expect Battle Mage to do the E-1 vote as any alignment. The sus votes are in the middle, when the wagon is actually being talked about as a wagon. A decent question at this point is, is there anyone adding pressure on you that wouldn't have done so as town? If so it's going to be somewhere in {PlusJOYED, Marashu, Titus, Klyne}.

But also there's almost certainly bound to be town guiding the wagon as well

I think I'll take your word for it that BM does that as any alignment, but that seems like a reason to not give him a pass for his vote lol. I think his is worse than plus, who was basically just RVSing with me. Does town Titus prefer to accelerate a wagon to generate data or let it form naturally to avoid impacting the data? I've played with Titus a bit recently but none of the games had both of us in from the start so I don't know

Username is saying that I am calling BM scummy in these posts but that's not really the case. I was pretty null on him, like many people were as he had like 10 posts. This isn't an example of me "calling him scummy" it was a direct response to someone giving him a pass for no reason.

i feel like people are ignoring me in this game

I townread this and Marashu.

Murdercat, what do you think of my reads so far?

Klyne's tone is not pinging me. I'm not good at tone reads so I'm not gunna TR an alt for tone, but I disagree with your read there.

"Marashu isn't likely scum"

Agree with this one, at first I thought the read on me was fake to the point that I actually thought it was a reaction test but the followup sounded genuine.

"I townread this" (in reference to BM)

BM has done nothing which is weird to me because my experience is he likes to lead. But also I SR'd BM as town one time and he yelled at me a lot

But I find your question kind of weird because I had to iso dive you to even see if you had any reads other than Klyne. I don't think you've been very vocal about them.

Again, this is a reaction to someone giving BM a pass for nothing, this time Titus. Again, BM had like 10 posts so my reaction was to people letting him off the hook, not me scum reading him in particular.

My "thoughts" earlier were that I wasn't really feeling the Titus wagon anymore, and I don't think she's especially likely to be scum. I left my vote on for a while to see what she'd do, since she hadn't posted in a few pages, and I wanted to see more from her. She's given more, and my vote no longer has a purpose.
UNVOTE:

As for being sheepy and agreeing with other people's ideas, well, guilty as charged. But I actually do agree with them, so I'm not going to say I disagree just for the sake of being original.

VOTE: Battle Mage
I feel like everyone has been leaving him alone like they're saving him for later, and I'd rather start figuring him out now.
What are your thoughts on, well, everyone besides taly? And do you SR me for the same reason as Titus, or for a different reason?

VOTE: ORAM

I'm VLA for weekend

I'm looking through the iso to see if BM responded to this and now I'm seeing what a bad OMGUS this is

Yes, I called his OMGUS an OMGUS. This is the only time I actually said anything that resembles real suspicion on BM.

Are Mara and BM scum and BM didn't want to deal with no teammate?
*tin foil*
This line of questioning worked really well in my last multiball game

Yeah that was mostly a joke for Plus/username/Titus

This is a joke.

These are the posts that apparently mean "'hey, BM is sorta scummy' posts with no real effort to do anything with this"
Yeah I was null on him as I said.

Spoiler: reread though page 10

Also if someone could explain how to actually approach this setup that would be great. I'm guessing wolves first and try to go into good nightless numbers is ideal because there won't be cross kills? But I'm not sure how we actually manage to control that

We don't? I'm not sure what you're asking here. We hunt scum, and try to figure it out from there.

VOTE: Taly

In retrospect, I think it's weird how fixated Mara was about me talking about this with no discussion of Titus talking about it with me. Maybe I am too tunneled on Titus? This is one of the ways I like to start open setups because it gives us something to talk about so I don't think it's weird at all, but if it is weird shouldn't it also be weird that Titus is discussing it too? Also, if this is apparently weird why is the vote on Taly instead of me?

Taly is at E minus 1

I feel like this is LAMIST in retrospect. As Titus admits it's not her normal play.

Cat that does murder... sounds a lot like an evil but wolves are dogs so they're the Mafia!

VOTE: MURDERCAT

I wonder if JV had read at this point and chose not to join the Taly wagon or if he just wasn't aware.

I'll admit I'm tempted.
Reading up real quick, lecture's about to start though so it might be a bit.

This is kind of sketchy but like, you wouldn't say this as scum right? It's just kind of dumb to say.

Titus is my best guess for scum on the wagon atm. Weird sheep without comment, and then the fuss about E-1 without unvoting.
MURDERCAT's vote seems NAI, and tbh I'd expect Battle Mage to do the E-1 vote as any alignment. The sus votes are in the middle, when the wagon is actually being talked about as a wagon. A decent question at this point is, is there anyone adding pressure on you that wouldn't have done so as town? If so it's going to be somewhere in {PlusJOYED, Marashu, Titus, Klyne}.

But also there's almost certainly bound to be town guiding the wagon as well

I still think that I like the conclusion about Titus but taking BM out for free here is still super weird to me.

Was thinking some good thoughts but most of them come to

Well does Kilck really think that an innocuous RVS wagon would have some deeper meaning to it, or is he merely postulating? Is it..sincere? Maybe he just really hates RVS and enjoys the sounds that come out of his RGB LED Mechanical Gaming Keyboard"

I had a townread on Kylne until his italics post.

I don't think there is anything AI in that at all. I wasn't sure how serious Titus was about this but evidently the answer was pretty serious??

lso feel iffy with the assertion that i am town based on the wagon

/shrug I still think that if Taly is scum there would have been more JV votes and fewer BM votes.

Taly is at E minus 1

Isn't it E-2?

It was E-2. I think murder being on point/correcting is NAI but I think titus being wrong (votes less than 1) is an association if taly ever flips non-town. But on it's own it's probably a towntell since mistakes usually come from town.

I think this is silly. The idea is Titus purposely tried to slow the wagon while still voting for it? I don't think and unvote there looks that weird if that was her goal.

It's funny that tracy basically did 79 in our last game and was scum, but here I think you are towny for it. I think because you do into more effort and are providing actual thoughts.

ding ding ding

VOTE: Klyne

Username definitely doesn't care about perceptions

Hm. Early takes right now: I'm thinking Titus is town. I was townleaning Taly based on reactions to the wagon until I saw the post about meta reads. That one makes me feel apprehensive (though I can at least promise that I will not be reading through those games to fact-check). I'm feeling scum!murdercat is a very real possibility. I'm also getting gut scumpings from Klick, but I also know BM is better than me at finding scum. Klick did have a good point about Klyne, though.

Light TL on Plus. Deas might be scum? So right now I'm feeling {Murdercat, Klick, Klyne, Deas} with one more to find.

UNVOTE:

P-Edit: VOTE: Klyne - now explain your vote.

Wrong side of Titus/Taly still I think.

That makes me feel a little guilty honestly

I should have pushed DV for more thoughts here, he read up but kind of ignored the major events of the early game.

Page 1>

- Ping on post 8 (mc), it is common sense to know that town only has scumhunt, while the scum side (maf, ww) needs to better understand the setup to be able to play properly.

- I didn't like Taly's answer very much and I can understand the increase in votes on him.

Page 2>

- I had a strange feeling reading Jackson's posts, but I don't classify it as ping.

- Positive impression of Klick and MC.

- Taly has not improved in the posts and I feel that Titus is very apathetic in the sense of WIM.

Page 3>

- BM, Klyne and PlusJOYED void.

- Delay on vote by Titus is towny.

Page 4>

- Um, I don't know how to read Taly.

And.. That's it. I don't think I will do more than that. Maybe I'll adapt to the real-time chat.

VOTE: Titus

I'm having many mixfeelings right now, but I want to sort this first ^

I see your analysis

I see your vote

Reconcile the two? I cannot see it.

Did you mean to Vote Taly?

I wonder if I am being pocketed by clidd, I recently was told I am susceptible to pocketing
BM does have a good point here.

I believe ORAM is scum.

This is important to remember for later

I like Taly and clidd for town. Klick and DV too, though not as strongly.

Marashu, talk to me about 90 because most of those reads are the opposite of how I feel.

I'm not exactly a hyperposter, but I'll be around for a while rn. Anyone on, let's talk

Also important for later.

Your townpool is basically what I'm thinking too.

Maybe Clidd is trying to buddy up to Taly here too? I have to look at how he approaches Titus later because it looked like a kind of towny wavering to me but maybe it wasn't.

I feel awkward bragging but my scum game is usually better than that.

I wonder if this is Titus trying to lessen some pressure by saying "you wouldn't catch me as scum." I do that as town a lot actually, I wonder if she would do it as scum.

Back

I'm leaving you guys a freebie on Marashu. This isn't the greatest catch but I'm feeling charitable.

Marashu saw an impending wagon on my slot and tried to push me. Bad news: He didn't expect for me to bring the tea. Noob scum thought I'd just lie over and take his fdnsjkanfsd vote

ANYWAYS

I already talked about why it sucks, but I'm gonna tell you why everything else sucks. Look at the way he disengages from me. That is NOT a conscious town who made a mistake, it's scum who realized they were biting off more than they chew. He says he hates being wrong and that I still have a chance being scum. Fine. Great. Cool. Great. Whatever. Fine. Cool.

Then as if nobody heard him he says "w-well that fake E-1 post seemed pretty genuine" and here I'm thinking OK, let's see what this dope does

HE FUCKING UNVOTES
I'm going back to swearing btw fuck you
--

I tell him why I don't like Titus and now the dude doesn't even seem interested at all. His posts following that is completely dodging the issue like it never fucking happened. NOOB SCUM FEAR. He didn't expect me to throw the ball back at him. You don't show up to play ball and then decide you can't hang with Michael Jordan after all

I will dunk on you
------------

I really really really dislike the way he engages other playesrs, like clidd. He's just all like "OH hey buddy please townread me" proceeds to make a bunch of uncharitable quoteposts busywokr JUST VOTE MURDERCAT YOU'RE AFRAID OF MAKINg THE SAME MISTAKE TWICE

This really feels like town with a strong read to me. If only I knew who you were I'd know if you are good enough to fake this

My heart says Taly is town posting but he's also one of the players I don't trust myself to read well given recent experience.

A few days later and this feeling has mostly passed.

What do you think of my wagon?

Like this is a weird thing to ask someone on the wagon right? I don't get where these questions are coming from.

I'm using players as a sounding board to get a feel for them.

For instance, I feel like scum from both factions are on my wagon. At first, I thought it was just one faction but the votes on me are from people who have lazy positions at best, which is exactly why I was supposedly voted.

I'm getting this weird feeling on this page that Titus is talking to me as if she knows I'm town even though that's not actually possible. But she would probably have a pretty good idea still as scum.

For instance, this is lazy and agreeing with almost every wagon but Kylne.
Very sheepish and not really solving.

Seems like Titus is happy with the ORAM wagon that develops later.

Now, I feel like this conversation is a bit like pulling teeth to get a reads discussion and a feel for you. It feels rather oppositional.

Like this is what I'm talking about. In one post it seems like Titus is addressing me as a strong TR and then she comes back with this where she apparently needs to get a feel for me?

Ok I realize it's not going to be fun to read so here's the cliffnotes with higher level thoughts.

Taly - town I think for wagon comp, that meta post, and a general lack of anything that I really think is scummy

Titus - Still think Titus is scummy. Nothing in the iso seems solvey, it's mostly defending (e.g. calling all the votes on her wagon lazy) and there's a number of posts that ping me. Plus I think Klyne v Titus is TvS

iamausername - Null through this point, but I did like some of the stuff that came later where he actually did anything.

The Bulge (JacksonVirgo) - Worried about this as a partner to Titus, but otherwise null.

PlusJOYED - Has done nothing to this point, which is unfortunately consistent with town meta so null. Not really sure what to make of his opening post still.

DeasVail - Looking back, I don't like how DV ignored Titus in the early catchup he did.

Datisi (Marashu) - I am sheeping Klyne here, but on reread there was stuff that pinged me. Could definitely be scum with Titus.

galaxii (Battle Mage) - Put Taly at E-2 but otherwise was pretty absent so far. Pushed for ORAM over Titus?

Klyne - This is a strong town read for me for tone and also I think we agree about the gamestate.

clidd - Ugh I am a little more worried about being pocked by Clidd now but I'm still town binning this for now.

Klick - Really bad association with Titus and in retrospect the iso is kinda empty.

VP Baltar (ORAM) - Totally null but becomes a CW to Titus and I think this is a case where VP replaced into a meh slot and towns it up. But I'll get there soon enough.


I have a meeting to run to, but I will continue later.

This is where "I forget to have a conclusion." which is apparently inconsistent with my previous posting, but I think in context you can see I never had an SR on BM? Username acts like everyone had these strong reads on BM through page 10 and I'm scummy for not having one, but I truly didn't have a read on him, few others did, and some were suspicious looking town reads.

Going to try to go a bit faster this time sorry.

Spoiler: Reread page 11-24

UNVOTE: Titus

MC, what do you think about Titus after her last set of posts?

I was rereading the game and started to detect small towny sparks from Titus, so I started to wonder if the static gamestate would say something AI about the wagon's position.

I should be looking at this more closely if Titus is actually scum. Clidd might be deciding the bus isn't necessary here as the wagon stalled a bit.

I think I figured out what about Klick's posts has been bugginig me. Klick keeps drawing attention to how there's a large number of scum in this game, either directly or indirectly. (post 38 directly but also implied in 42 by how there's bound to be scum on the early wagon but also town on the early wagon, and in 229 with a line of how there must be scum even if Klick thinks they are towny). This bothers me because it's shifting focus away from reading players.

Klick's townread of me I think comes out of nowhere - or rather, it seems to have shifted after more people have expressed townleans on me. I'd like to know what that thing I did was that changed your mind. And wait, why is Klyne in your townish section?

VOTE: Klick

It's sort of interesting how Mara is kinda always off doing his own thing, it's probably + town points, it doesn't feel like he is trying to drive attention away from other places at all, just giving genuine analysis.

323 is kinda the first real content from DV. It's a lot of shade without a ton of substance, I think I want to see more here. Like I think username is playing to town meta but I'm not sure if it deserves a town read, there were still only like 3 posts in the iso. Maybe I'm just biased because there is shade thrown my way too.

Who is your top TR?

it might still be Plus, it might be DeasVail. i'm pretty sold on both of them as town at this point.

There's these weird groups forming. Plus/DV/username, me/clidd/Klyne.

I like how clidd is interacting with me around here, fwiw.

VOTE: Titus

I think this in response to Klyne trying to get the game going again (which by the way is still ++ townie to me) basically made my fears evaporate in regards to clidd.

mcat i see your questions but tbh I barely remember anything about the titus wagon. gimme a bit

Bulge hasn't really done anything yet

Halfway update:

Y'all realize Titus and Marashu are scum together, right? They both defended each other as town with like zero coherent reasoning at all in the very early pages of the game. I'd maybe even guess werewolves since I'd suspect that pair to be highly defense of each other if they have any hope of winning the game.

Klick and Klyne are my strongest townreads based on me vibing with the things they say. Klick early pages and in analysis of the Taly wagon, Klyne more pages 5-9 when he's busting up Marashu & Titus with zero fucks given.

clidd is probably clueless town based on early impressions.

VP is joining the Klyne/MC/clidd group that formed. Bulge too. I wonder if one of these are scum trying to get into a town block? VP is a bit more opportunistic in regards to his position relative to Titus but his posts also feel better.

Reading Datisi intro posts (492 and beyond). I don't like the kinda "worried about TRing Titus but still gunna TR Titus for all her posts" thing that is happening. And then in the next post Titus is TSTBS?

Da'Vonne is amazing and you're officially top tier human for this hiiii <3

It is known.

if anyone will even read it

I'm reading it!

Oh snap. The business happened over night.

Sorry you drew scum though. Will catch up later today.

I feel like the game is going to come down to figuring out where the scum is in the two groups that I pointed out. Overall I like datisi's posting but I think I might be mega tunneling on Titus so that is coloring my perception of the slot. I don't get VP's confidence here :/

VOTE: plusjoyed

This is big + town for me I think because Datisi scum probably votes for VP here if he is scum with Titus and that was basically my big worry about the slot.

i'm realising now why i have felt no desire to join the Titus wagon despite not townreading her at all. i'm feeling some level of bad vibes from every one of these people.

I find such a range of reads on me to be really weird. It makes me think the SRs on me are fake but that's probably unfair

Titus arrives, I think this will be telling.

That static gamestate is because of scum not wanting to push opposing scum or do anything really. I am making moves and scumhunting, but still wagoned. There's no discussion elsewhere because half the game doesn't want it. There's no incentive to push elsewhere if a wagon that's not on their team develops. When both scum find it, why would they bother? Doubly so when I am not around to defend myself.

How can you say this when you were just V/LA...
I hardly consider Titus to have done much scum hunting so far, plus you can't really say that you are doing a lot but also that you take a while to get going.

@Clidd, I take off later.

DV comes in with 558. I'm kinda wary that scum DV saw the read on me was unsustainable and dropped it, but maybe I am just more town now. I do agree with the reads on both username and clidd.

Klyne just seems all hot air to me and little in the way of organic substance. It just all seems very rah rah whatever works and I’m looking forward to seeing how they respond to votes.

I really think klyne is town still.

Bulge is saying a lot of stuff but I want him to pick a side and give some reads.

I am mindmelding with clidd here I think.

Feeling something like this at the moment.

{taly, clidd, klyne}
{username, datisi}
{galaxii, ben, VP}
{bulge, plus, dv}
{titus}

Going to respond like normal from here as I'm almost back up to date.

The commentary about this post claims that the galaxii read is suspicious in relation to the VP read. But I was null on galaxii as I said and if you actually read the spoiler you'll see that I'm having conflicting opinions on VP throughout the second part of my reread. So I put him in the middle tier.

Deadline galaxii speed-yeet?

I actually don't hate this. But I'm not sure that I like you leading it.

As stated, this is not inconsistent with my read of VP, especially when you consider that I did the second part of my reread more recently to this post and was still having doubts. And remember that FMPOV it looked like a hard deflection from the Titus wagon which I still think was on scum.

[MURDERCAT]

Seriously the exact same people are jumping on me as the end of the wagon yesterday and no one thinks that's weird??

[innocentvillager]

yeah sorry please don’t hammer yet at least let me commit to a Stance on the MC wagon

I will put at least some reread effort in tonight

[innocentvillager]

it’s objectively bad townplay to rush this imo

[VP Baltar]

This game has been at a standstill for some time because of the holiday. It is hardly rushing.

[VP Baltar]

@MC, so your basic counter is that you were completely null on BM and username is overstating your position? Do you find that scummy or is username just misreading here?

Fwiw, I did look at the posts he linked and I don't think he is overstating by a significant amount.