Mini 630: Council of Eville: Game Ovah!

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I could definitely get behind a BaB lynch. Though I'd like an alvinz one as well.

Unvote, vote BaB

That's L-3.

[alvinz95]

Well, I could definitely get behind a BaB lynch. Though I'd like an alvinz one as well.

Unvote, vote BaB

That's L-3.

That is just plain MORONIC because you're scum. Way to completely blow your cover and help my case =). Goat, stop trying to attack random people to get attention off forbiddanlight, it just makes me think harder and more assertive that you are scum with StrangerCoug. Your case against Sthar failed to pull votes off, so now you attack BaB. Also, I'm leaning towards trio of scum of the obvious.

[forbiddanlight]

That is just plain MORONIC because you're scum. Way to completely blow your cover and help my case =). Goat, stop trying to attack random people to get attention off forbiddanlight, it just makes me think harder and more assertive that you are scum with StrangerCoug. Your case against Sthar failed to pull votes off, so now you attack BaB. Also, I'm leaning towards trio of scum of the obvious.

After the game, I will look back at this statement, quote it. Then I will look back at the mod telling you how I flipped. Quote that. I will then very snidely laugh at your foolish tunnel vision and refusal to substantiate a case that DOESN'T depend on me being scum.

[alvinz95]

That is just plain MORONIC because you're scum. Way to completely blow your cover and help my case =). Goat, stop trying to attack random people to get attention off forbiddanlight, it just makes me think harder and more assertive that you are scum with StrangerCoug. Your case against Sthar failed to pull votes off, so now you attack BaB. Also, I'm leaning towards trio of scum of the obvious.

After the game, I will look back at this statement, quote it. Then I will look back at the mod telling you how I flipped. Quote that. I will then very snidely laugh at your foolish tunnel vision and refusal to substantiate a case that DOESN'T depend on me being scum.

Appeal to Emotion.

[forbiddanlight]

Have you also noticed I honestly don't care what you call what I say? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar kid. And may I ask what you call your non cases?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Also, I now note that your attack on me has changed directions. Originally, my connections with forbiddanlight were just a small aspect of your case that you would bring up if forbiddan was scum. Now they are the bulk of your case.

that's a complete

lie

.
I never said the connections with FL were a small aspect. I have mentioned that I suspect FL as scum more than you did. THe only reason I mentioned my suspicions on you was to get people to get a read on me. Normally I wouldn't have mentioned my suspicions on you at all. That's because it's weak.
It's all weak until FL turns up scum. It's all gone if FL is a townie.

Why specifically do you think forbiddan is scum? I've heard you talk more about how I'm scum if she is scum than I've heard your reasons for finding her such.

Is there any reason to repeat all the myriads of scummy things she's done? I'll give you a choice:
a) I stay with the current discussion and am able to defend myself.
b) I spend the next week or more digging up evidence that's already been cited on a player that's going to be lynched in a week anyway.

Which option helps the town more?

[alvinz95]

Have you also noticed I honestly don't care what you call what I say? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar kid. And may I ask what you call your non cases?

I didn't really ask you if you cared. Still Appealing to Emotion and just disregarding it rather than defending. And NO you don't have to say if you care or not.

[forbiddanlight]

I didn't really ask you if you cared. Razz Still Appealing to Emotion and just disregarding it rather than defending. And NO you don't have to say if you care or not.

Just to be contrary, I don't care. And what am I to defend? From you, um...I honestly can't think of anything you've accused me of except for some random fallacies that really don't matter at this point.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

1. The reasons I laid out earlier today about Ghostwriter and how I found his posts scummy

I said I'd be more than willing to defend myself against those tomorrow. I am playing so that I will be able to be actively involved in the current discussion. I'll write the defenses over the night, and if I'm alive tomorrow, I'll post them.

2. His attack on me.

1.

Originally it was because he found my votes weak, and the tie between me and FL was an afterthought.

2.

I defended myself against those points and he has not acknowledged those defenses or conceded any of those points, but yet he subtly changes his case such that my tie with FL is now the meat of his case and those points are just side points.

3.

In other words, the entire focus of his case on me has changed, suggesting his realization that he was wrong about my other points, but yet he has not acknowledged such and has

4.

instead taken to attacking me basically because I'm defending myself from his attacks while I'm not a lynch target. Under that same logic, sthar8 should not have defended himself from my attacks, but yet BaB has made no attempt to prevent Sthar8 from doing so. And why should he? Defending oneself from attacks is perfectly natural as town or scum. In other words, his assertion is ridiculous.

holy mother goose.
So many things wrong with this.

1.

Wrong. That was never the focus of the case. This is a huge EXAGERATION. Read my previous post. The strongest part of my case is your connection with FL, who I believe to be scum.

2.

Strike two. Again you claim the main point of my case was your voting when it never was. Also, you say that it's scummy to not concede points? Are you fucking kidding me? Do I need to pat your head everytime and say, "oh, good defense?" How does that help the town?

What if I don't concede your points? Maybe I'm just

choosing

to not respond because I know that will drag the conversation out, intent on talking until you convince me.

You will not convince me of your own alignment.

Ever

.

3.

Strike three. The third time you mentioned that I changed the focus of my case.
YOu really need to read my posts before you attack me for things I didn't do.

4.

THIS IS A HUGE MISREPRESENTATION!
I am not attacking you because of your defense in isolation. That's freaking idiotic.
I'm attacking you because of the context. There's no need to defend yourself until tomorrow. Likewise, same for me. It appears as if you're preemptively defending yourself so you won't have to do as much tomorrow.

3. His willingness to lynch FL rings insincere. He's more focused on me being scum if FL is scum than he is of FL being scum in the first place. I don't recall him expressly stating the reasons for why he thinks FL is scum outside of a blanket "I agree with the evidence provided" statement, so if he could point that out it would be appreciated.

Read the previous post.

[Rage]

What if I don't concede your points?

Maybe I'm just choosing to not respond because I know that will drag the conversation out, intent on talking until you convince me

.

You will not convince me of your own alignment.

Ever.

Bolded:

If you're not going to respond, why should he? Goatrevolt has presented his defense, but says you haven't , why don't you change that? I'm not necessarily taking Goat's side here, in fact I strongly agree that both you and him should be acknowledging each other's posts before you make accusations.

If I remember correctly, I'm seeing both of you make mistakes about what the other has said a lot, and I'm not liking it.

Italic's/Underlined

(You added this, not me, but I'm commenting on it): Is there something you know that the rest of the Town don't?

Either:
1) I'm calling out a Cop to claim, which wouldn't be too smart to do if there's a Cult (no night kills, "council" game, meaning there is the possibility of some sort of corruption involved) nor a Mafia choosing not to kill
2) Or I'm calling you out on "knowing" Goatrevolt is scum.

I'd like to think the latter, but I want to know what others think of this.

And, although this is very recent, it's attention-worthy. Three consecutive posts are as follows:

If she's town.. then I'm truly at a loss.. She has shown such a mountain of tells that if she's not scum, I would have to re-read the whole game from the start. It would make sense however that the possible scum would be the ones she attacked -- skillit and alvinz.

Well, a re read is always good. Sorry to add extra work. I suppose I fill the too scummy tell?

Yep, BaB is scum in both of my scenarios, so I should be voting him.

Unvote, Vote BridgesAndBalloons

I'm going to continue my attack on sthar, though, as I also believe him to be scum and would like to keep pressure there as well. However, it's been over 24 hours since I've last slept, so I'm going to sleep. I'll address sthar/veerus tomorrow.

Well, I could definitely get behind a BaB lynch. Though I'd like an alvinz one as well.

Unvote, vote BaB

That's L-3.

Forbiddanlight's filling the "too scummy" tell, all right. I see this as very obvious buddying.

[StrangerCoug]

I am resisting the temptation to insult alvinz95 right now, but in any event, he's still not being of any help.

[Rage]

Bolded:

If you're not going to respond, why should he? Goatrevolt has presented his defense,

but says you haven't responded to it, so

why don't you change that? I'm not necessarily taking Goat's side here, in fact I strongly agree that both you and him should be acknowledging each other's posts before you make accusations.

Fixed, underlined.

[Rage]

I am resisting the temptation to insult alvinz95 right now, but in any event, he's still not being of any help.

I'm tempted to give up my PBPA. I mean, I probably won't, but I don't like that I've asked alvinz several times to respond to my question, yet when he makes a post he does no such thing, and responds to someone he has admitted to having tunnel-vision on.

I'm also very tempted to vote for him, but if that's going to happen, that'll come after I've presented the PBPA.

[StrangerCoug]

I am resisting the temptation to insult alvinz95 right now, but in any event, he's still not being of any help.

I'm tempted to give up my PBPA. I mean, I probably won't, but I don't like that I've asked alvinz several times to respond to my question, yet when he makes a post he does no such thing, and responds to someone he has admitted to having tunnel-vision on.

I want to see the PBPA so I can claw alvinz95 to shreds.

I'm also very tempted to vote for him, but if that's going to happen, that'll come after I've presented the PBPA.

Go ahead. You'll have my support.

[Dean Harper]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

forbiddanlight - (4) Goatrevolt, alvinz95, veerus, sthar8

alvinz95 - (2) StrangerCoug, forbiddanlight
BridgesAndBalloons - (1) Megatheory

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch a player - YOU ARE IN L-1.

Didn't Goat move his vote to sthar8 too?

Not that I have seen...

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT:

forbiddanlight - (3) alvinz95, veerus, sthar8

BridgesAndBalloons - (3) Megatheory, Goatrevolt, forbiddanlight

alvinz95 - (1) StrangerCoug

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch a player. Your deadline is Monday, September 15th at 7:00 PM PST.

Prodding skillit.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I switched votes here.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, now what? Something has to be wrong with the vote here too—it also still has me as voting alvinz95 when I switched seven posts before that. If that's the only thing wrong, then forbiddanlight should have been lynched.

I'm completely and utterly confused as to what the count should be.

[veerus]

OK, now what? Something has to be wrong with the vote here too—it also still has me as voting alvinz95 when I switched seven posts before that. If that's the only thing wrong, then forbiddanlight should have been lynched.

I'm completely and utterly confused as to what the count should be.

That's a good catch, SC. However, before your vote, Goat moved his to sthar8 as I initially said but apparently the mod missed it, so your vote put FL back to L-1. Goat's switch is here and here.

Someone should check the vote count since the mod keeps missing votes.

[Dean Harper]

OK, now what? Something has to be wrong with the vote here too—it also still has me as voting alvinz95 when I switched seven posts before that. If that's the only thing wrong, then forbiddanlight should have been lynched.

I'm completely and utterly confused as to what the count should be.

That's a good catch, SC. However, before your vote, Goat moved his to sthar8 as I initially said but apparently the mod missed it, so your vote put FL back to L-1. Goat's switch is here and here.

Someone should check the vote count since the mod keeps missing votes.

I found out what I did. SC voted forbiddan and I mistook it as he was voting for alvinz. Goat voted for sthar8 but i totally blew that one and accidentally said he voted for forbiddan. There would have been no lynch in any case, but it was a big error on my part. Sorry about that. Feel free to check my counts when I post them as I do make mistakes.


Vote count in post 914 is now accurate.

[Goatrevolt]

That isn't the only reason that I no longer think FL is town. Perhaps she's exceptionally skilled at WIFOM and I'm buying into it but I feel

her play has been pro-town as of late

. Her suggestion that we lynch her so the town can move on to discussing other targets, thus expressing worry about the town losing track of scum by focusing solely on one target, speaks to me of a pro-town mindset. Her dropping of suspicion on me after I stopped attacking her doesn't come as a surprise to me, as I considered her attack on me to be 100% OMGUS anyway.

At this point, I really get the feeling that forbiddan is a mislynch and thus I am switching targets.

How do you explain away her earlier inconsistant behavior that got her into her current predicament?

Bad play. Her earlier play was scummy, yes, but my recent read is that she's been more pro-town, and combined with my outlook that sthar/you are scummy it makes me feel she is a mislynch. I'd say she's about 4th on my scum list right now, behind BaB->sthar->veerus, and the situation is such that I feel if FL is town then sthar->veerus are scum, and if FL is scum then my suspicion on sthar->veerus is lessened. Likewise, I feel if sthar->veerus is scum that FL is likely town.

Your reasoning here is that sthar8 was a mind reader? That sthar8 knew others had theories about who was scum with forbiddan, but nobody voiced them yet? He's just that good at reading people's minds?

Horse Laugh. With the number of people who had expressed theories about FL's partner, and having such theories myself, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the evidence is indicative of a trend. That's not actually what happened, but attacking that assumption as you have shows poor reasoning.

Wrong. This is an example of Hasty Generalization. If 3 players express in the thread that they have a theory of who is scum with FL, it's a logical fallacy to assume that others have a theory as well. Furthermore, I cannot know that you have a theory of who is scum with FL because you didn't announce it as such.

In other words, you mentioned that one of the reasons why we should lynch FL is to figure out the validity of theories about who is scum with her. When I attacked that standpoint on the basis of the theories currently presented, I was attacked back with the idea that I should have known about theories which were not presented. That's an absolute ridiculous argument, and clearly based on fallacious logic.

I mentioned BaB's as being not very meaningful because he wasn't pursuing it. At the moment, it's now the meat of his case against me, which does lend validity to your stance, although after the fact. I don't recall that post by megatheory, but it's valid in your defense. Veerus's post is completely irrelevant.

Why is it not meaningful that BaB's waiting for the evidence that I said he was waiting for? And veerus's post is entirely relevant. It's a summation of an argument between SC and alvinz that assumes a particular result from FL's lynch, making it a theory that needs the info from her lynch in order to develop.

BaB's wasn't meaningful, because his original case on me wasn't based on FL's alignment (I'll get to that in a moment, when I address BaB). Veerus' quote still seems completely irrelevant to me. I can't see at all how that quote relates to FL, considering it looks like discussion over alvinz being a cop and what that means for SC.

I don't and they're not. Without the solid information from the lynch, scumpartner theories are worthless, which is why I've kept

mine

out of thread. My vote is based entirely on the

pile of scumtells

that FL has cranked out this game. Everything else is bonus.

Here:

At this point, though, a good number of the theories being discussed assume you to be scum, and we can't act on any of them until after you're dead

That's additional justifcation for her lynch based on theories of who is scum with her.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! When did I say my read on you was strong? And how is it scummy that it isn't? To my eyes, this looks like you're suspicious of me because I'm not sure enough of your alignment to outright defend you, even though I expressed my opinion that you are probably not scum.

It's not scummy of you to have a less than strong read. Your manner of presenting your information was scummy though. I honestly don't see any problem with you saying "I'm not sure about goatrevolt" or anything along those lines. I do have an issue with you saying "verdict: town, but here are some scummy things he's done. I personally don't think they make him scum, but here they are anyway."

You seem to be arguing that it's anti-town to point out town tells on someone unless you are doing so to prevent their lynch. I agree. You also seem to be insinuating that it's pro-town to point out any scum tells you see in the thread whatsoever of circumstances. I disagree, or at least disagree with the notion of scum tell in this sense. Scum tell is something that you consider makes someone else more likely to be scum. The purpose of pointing them out is to get players lynched who you think are scum. If you find me town, then my scum tells aren't really scum tells, because you don't think they suggest I'm scum. In that case, why point them out? There's no pro-town reason to do so. The argument "I'm just providing information to the town and maybe they can act on it" is exactly the same argument I'm calling you out on over and over again. You're providing information to the town that would allow them to pressure a player you have listed as townie. That is not a pro-town action, and completely fits scum mentality.

Why? Isn't it in the town's best interest to make sure that everyone has all of the information? If I were wrong about you, or anyone else, providing my thoughts on any anti-town play could allow someone else to point out the error in my thinking and help us catch scum. I would agree that it would be counterproductive to provide examples on someone that I'm sure enough about to defend, but there are only a few people matching that description in this game, and none of them are under serious attack currently.

Again, I've addressed this above. If your entire point of reviewing my play was to say that you didn't think I was scum, then it's completely counterproductive for you to also in that same breath provide reasoning why others might find me scum. If you yourself do not think that it means I'm scum, then you don't think it's worthwhile information to pressure me on. Why give it to others and allow them to pressure me on that information then? You personally don't think it's indicative that I'm scum, so you obviously aren't going to act on it, right? Why allow others to do the same?

It's like saying this: "Goat has committed A. I don't think A means goat is scum. However, it's suspicious because of B. So maybe you will think goat is scum from A." You personally don't think it's a meaningful scum tell or else you'd be voting me for it. Why then would you present it so others could vote me for it?

So I'm suspicious because you think I'm defending against something that isn't a scumtell? Why would changing my mind on you reflect poorly on me

at all

, if I provided solid reasoning to go with it?

For the exact same reasons that my change on FL is reflecting poorly on me right now. Earlier I provided reasons why I thought she was scum, and now I've changed my mind. I've come under a lot of pressure for that change. If I had previously been wishy-washy and been like "Well I think FL is scum, but here are some town tells and maybe you'll think she is town from them" then I could have been able to cite that and say that my read wasn't strong and that I now consider those town tells to override my idea that she was scum, etc. It wouldn't seem as much of a drastic change and would likely allow me to make a swap like this less noticeable.

Show me where you refute.

1. "I don't like his reliance on meta" is not a scumtell, it's just bad play. (in my opinion)

You didn't mention that in the post.

2. "the end of yesterday's alvinz wagon makes my skin crawl" corresponds to "The shifts in opinion seem honest to me, and they coincide with things like rereads that explain the sudden changes satisfactorily." This would be obvious to anyone who checked the context of the alvinz wagon.

That doesn't correspond at all, and it completely non-intuitive to connect, considering the first point was early in the paragraph and the 2nd point was later in the paragraph and is very seemingly unrelated. Also, my change of opinion on Alvinz/Skillit didn't have anything to do with a reread.

3. "goat doesn't respond to posts that answer him, presumably unless he disagrees, but if that assumption is correct there is nothing anti-town about this behavior." I hope I don't have to point this one out

Nope, that one is obvious and the only point in your favor.

So you agree that I shouldn't announce town tells in thread, but not doing so makes me suspicious if I also express my own suspicions?

And since when is three suspects and one worry too much for a twelve person game?

Three suspects and one worry is understating it. I listed 7 suspects that you had shown some suspicion of in somewhat of a recent time frame.

As evidenced by my single-minded pursuit of FL today, right?

Single minded pursuit of

lynching

FL. You've attacked and generated plenty of suspicion on other targets as well throughout the day which is what I find suspicious.

For example: You think FL being scum makes Alvinz look better. You mentioned an 85% chance FL is scum. By that logic, you should feel that Alvinz is probably town, yet you have been pressuring him. I don't think it would be absurd to assume that you would be able to be on an Alvinz wagon, should things start to change towards lynching him instead. That's what I find scummy. You are completely open to pushes in plenty of directions.

But my desire for information that would allow us to evaluate these theories, because they are held in part by someone who I find suspicious, is scummy?

You yourself claimed that this was not a reason for your vote. I'm assuming here you renege on that?

This is horrifyingly flawed. The fact that we've pointed out FL's scumtells, and she subsequently stopped displaying them, only proves that she can read. Nothing she has done nullifies the huge amount of scummy behavior we've seen in any way. And the suggestion that her "giving up" is a town tell is laughable as well. In her situation, it would make sense for scum to emulate the behavior of alvinz from yesterday, as that made you drop your suspicions of him and saved him from a lynch. In addition, the "lynch me, it's best for the town" strategy is a good example of WIFOM, and could be used to scare votes off of her wagon, as we have already seen.

I think her mentality has been pro-town, mainly in that she seems interested in steering the town towards talking about productive things. Furthermore, my read that you are scum does play a role in my perception of her.

I'm no longer suspicious of BaB or SC, and I've never been suspicious of you. I see no difference in the situations, because your

interpretation

of my suspicions is a list of everyone I've suspected

all game

plus some random guesses that are only tangentially supported by a misinterpretation of my arguments.

If I'm able to interpret that you're suspicious of those players, it's just as easy to see how you could get on their wagons without it being an issue. Again, the alvinz example I provided above is kind of the idea I'm talking about. I could seriously see you on almost any wagon today and it wouldn't be a stretch.

The issue is that if I were scum looking to do this, I would have picked a target that was easier to accomplish it with.

I've already brought this up, but it has no bearing on the fact that your argument was a straw man. Had you expressed

this

sentiment, your objection would have been valid.

I did express this sentiment.

Response to BaB to come...

[Goatrevolt]

Also, I now note that your attack on me has changed directions. Originally, my connections with forbiddanlight were just a small aspect of your case that you would bring up if forbiddan was scum. Now they are the bulk of your case.

that's a complete

lie

.
I never said the connections with FL were a small aspect. I have mentioned that I suspect FL as scum more than you did. THe only reason I mentioned my suspicions on you was to get people to get a read on me. Normally I wouldn't have mentioned my suspicions on you at all. That's because it's weak.
It's all weak until FL turns up scum.

It's all gone if FL is a townie.

Oh. Really. Post 683 is your post where you lay out your suspicions on me. Let's have a look shall we?

While Goat and FL have been connected to an extreme extent, that doesn't mean anything until FL is lynched. Anyway, I will bring up these connections if FL turns scum. And, If FL is scum, I will be that more confidant with Goat,

but if FL is town, I will probably still be suspicious of Goat.

Bolding emphasis mine. In fact, this is the only mention of connections to FL in your original case on me, the rest deals with my votes and how you find them scummy. Is it so ridiculous for me to assume that connections with FL are a secondary aspect of your case when you even said that you would still find me suspicious even if FL is town? That suggests that those connections are not the bulk of your case.

Is there any reason to repeat all the myriads of scummy things she's done? I'll give you a choice:
a) I stay with the current discussion and am able to defend myself.
b) I spend the next week or more digging up evidence that's already been cited on a player that's going to be lynched in a week anyway.

I honestly cannot find a place where you've specifically said why

you

think FL is scum, outside of the inconclusive "slip". And yes, it's certainly meaningful for you to say why you think she's scum. Blind agreement with the leading wagon and then just saying "I agree with what others have said" without any indication of what specifically you agree with is not enough. Since I haven't seen you provide anything like this at all, it definitely feels to me that you want to lynch FL specifically for the purpose of your case on me.

1. Wrong. That was never the focus of the case. This is a huge EXAGERATION. Read my previous post. The strongest part of my case is your connection with FL, who I believe to be scum.

Yes, your previous post states that it wasn't he focus of your case. Originally, it was, based on 683, which is my entire point. The focus of your case changed and you haven't acknowledged why that is.

2. Strike two. Again you claim the main point of my case was your voting when it never was. Also, you say that it's scummy to not concede points? Are you fucking kidding me? Do I need to pat your head everytime and say, "oh, good defense?" How does that help the town?

Again, the main point of your case was my voting as referenced above, and again I find it scummy that your case has changed gears but you haven't given any reason why that is. Since your case on me is now entirely based on FL's alignment (and originally was not) I can only assume that something has changed. I want you to explain that.

What if I don't concede your points? Maybe I'm just choosing to not respond because I know that will drag the conversation out, intent on talking until you convince me.
You will not convince me of your own alignment. Ever.

Again, this isn't the point. You seem to think that the only reason I'm defending myself is so I can get you to change your mind and feel good about myself, or some BS like that. I'm defending myself because you've attacked me and suggested that you find me scum, and it's to my benefit as both town and scum to counter arguments that suggest I'm scum. Furthermore, the reason I keep bringing up the issue of you conceding points is unrelated to my defense. It has to do with my attack on you, which is that your case is crap, and has changed gears without you giving any indication why but yet you continue to push it.

3. Strike three. The third time you mentioned that I changed the focus of my case.
YOu really need to read my posts before you attack me for things I didn't do.

I'd suggest you reread your own posts.

4. THIS IS A HUGE MISREPRESENTATION!
I am not attacking you because of your defense in isolation. That's freaking idiotic.
I'm attacking you because of the context. There's no need to defend yourself until tomorrow. Likewise, same for me. It appears as if you're preemptively defending yourself so you won't have to do as much tomorrow.

Again this is stupid. Was there no need for sthar to defend himself either then? Let me ask you this, do you find his defense scummy? Why does Rage continue to push Alvinz to defend himself? Clearly Alvinz shouldn't defend himself until tomorrow.

It's to the town's benefit to have as much information as we can get and clear up as many loose ends as possible before the end of the day. It's pro-town to get people to defend themselves prior to the end of the day and it's not scummy at all for me to defend myself for attacks against me, much like it wasn't scummy for sthar to do it or Rage to ask Alvinz to do it.

Your argument is along the lines of: we're going to lynch FL, so let's not discuss ANYTHING else today because it detracts from us lynching FL. That is wrong in so many ways. First, it assumes FL's lynch is a foregone conclusion. Second, it leaves us with considerably less information to consider tomorrow. Thirdly, based on NK's it will diminish the impact of information. Say I get NKed, and you address my original case on Ghostwriter tomorrow. Perhaps I have an excellent rebuttal to your points, but nobody else thinks of it. I'm dead, and cannot provide that information, thus it gets lost.

[Skillit]

I go by the theory that if you are looking for jack the ripper you look for the guy with the knife and bloddy hands. Alvinz and Fl are the top of my list, as i have stated previously, because i think that town wouldnt act the way they did, but i really can see scum doint it. I dont think anything could make me think that Alv is town, and Fl has reeked to me since the hammer of rage, and just got worse since then. if either of you are town then i cannot fathom your motives. i havent seen anything that implies to me that these are not our 2 though. waiting on a votecount before I vote forbiddanlight <=not an official vote

[Rage]

Crap, my internet has been cutting out a lot all day, so I'm not sure if I can dedicate much time to my PBPA of alvinz. I'm almost done, though.

[Dean Harper]

Vote count in post 914 is now accurate.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

sorry for the less-than-desirable amount of posting, I'll try to post more tomorrow. I never really got into this game.