Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

[Untrod Tripod]

Votecount 5.3

Gamma Emerald
Gypyx - 2 (Gamma, MariaR)
Jingle
MURDERSUNNY - 3 (Jingle, Noraa, MURDERSUNNY)
MariaR - 1 (Zaiden)
midwaybear
noraa
SirCakez
Something_Smart
Zaiden

Not Voting - 4 (Gypyx, midwaybear, SirCakez, Something_Smart)

With 10 alive, it's 6 to ask someone politely to leave. Deadline is 3/1 at 8PM EST.

[MURDERSUNNY]

Well it's a response to what I said but I'm looking for a more general overview of your game and things that don't make sense as scum. Like here's things that I think don't make sense for me to do as scum:

-Hard push cake and back off to push my scum buddy instead
-TR Pooky for protecting Kanna
-Claim MT is scum instead of Monty

What is your list of things that don't make sense in a scum you world?

[Gypyx]

'ight i'll try, what do you think about the points i already brought up? (goes for rhe rest of the game)

[Jingle]

The only things I found compelling about murders ‘case’ on you were the awkward interactions scum had towards you, tbh, and I don’t see any way for you to debunk “it was weird that scum had a detailed read on a bunch of players but called gypyx town with functionally no reasoning.”

If you’re town here, you should focus on two things: litigation of your strong reads and pointing out things that make you strongly town. If there’s something that isn’t being considered that strongly makes you town, that’s worth bringing up. But honestly, a better use of your time would be trying to explain the things you feel strongly about that will matter if we do flip you.

Do you have a strong scumread on Noraa? Why? What discounts the mountain of circumstantial evidences pointing to Noraa town? Where do you get the pings that Noraa is a deep wolf looking to endgame?

Do you townread Maria? Why? Is there some interaction where scum just treated her in a way that would be unnatural for a buddy? Some push she made that we’re not considering?

Honestly, the latter is more useful than the former, because by their nature at this point, all towncases have to be either genuine or correct (or both).

[Jingle]

-Hard push cake and back off to push my scum buddy instead
-TR Pooky for protecting Kanna
-Claim MT is scum instead of Monty

FWIW:

1. I don't think a hard-push on cakez to a largely reactionary stance shift in the face of PB's case is particularly town indicative, and is in fact the sole reason you're so low in my PoE, other than sheeping the reads of the dead.
2. I don't see why agreeing with the majority there is particularly towny.
3. I actually would like to hear more about this. Where would you say you tried to shift the Monty-lim onto Tweets? I don't remember that, but if it did happen that is 100% the kind of thing that would make me reconsider my vote.

I think that the best argument for Murdertown is that early D1 he played a really strong town game. That fell apart when we got to the gated dayplay portion of the game, as Cheet put it, but that's completely understandable to me.



This game has been mired in a shithole of inactivity and low inertia plays, and to an extent I blame our success at PRs. I think both PB and Cheet played their roles incredibly well at night, and kinda shittily during the day. We haven't had a chance for people to make waves or push their own choices since early on D1, which produced an environment where scum pretty much didn't need to do anything to blend in. I fully believe we would have lost this game to Pooky if Cheet hadn't caught him mechanically, because town is so fucking demoralized. If the game ended right now and I had to award tiebreaks (assuming murder scum), my list would be PB>Cheet>Noraa>Cakez>Zaiden, and I know the primary pushes from Noraa and Cakez are wrong because they're on me. Murder would 100% be somewhere near the top as town, and tbh I'd probably put spf at the very top of the list because they didn't contribute at all to the dangerous position we're in.

This game has functionally changed. We're not looking at interactions anymore, but rather survivalism. Town no longer has to care about looking town themselves, they have to figure out the people who are trying to outlast the game. And the traditional skill of "Being town" is completely useless here, because the sole motivation of scum as of Pooky's flip is "Being town". Cheet acknowledged that he left us in a shitty position, and we (including me) have done nothing so far today to remedy it.

I put forward my list, and my reasoning, and I'm fairly certain I'm not so godlike that literally no one disagrees with it, but I HAVEN'T HEARD ANY ARGUMENTS THAT GO AGAINST IT, WHEN THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE BEST THING FOR THE THREAD RIGHT NOW.

Noraa and Cakez both put out paranoia feelers of "Maybe Jinglescum" and no one bit. I see two arguments for me to be town (and frankly, while they're valid or I'd be screaming for a maria/murder lim here instead of just passively supporting it, they're not locktowning by any means, even without the paranoia normally attributed to my scumgame by anyone who has been told anything about me, which I assume is everyone in this thread by now).

[Jingle]

Maybe I should write a MD article about why keeping a guilty in your pants until there's actually a wagon for the day is a good idea after this game is over.

[Zaiden]

Okay, I've been living under a rock and only just caught onto the situation in Texas. Stay safe, Jingle. Hope you, your friend and your family over there make it through no problem.

Thinking back on interactions throughout the game, especially the steep dropout in activity, I can accept that Murder is within the POE range. But the way Murder is saying vote Gypyx after they die makes me think it might not be them? I dunno, I really hesitate when people go in with a death wish in real life because it's quite often townie frustration rather than scum resignation. But you can't read these things like tone/body language on an online game. So I'm gonna have to go with unsure here. But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning. However, I just feel that MariaR has been so much scummier this game. If this game is four scum as people have posited, I've already given my prior reasoning for believing why it's MariaR. And I'm not convinced by the counter arguments suggesting why she might be town. Maybe I just don't know her well enough. But I find it crazy how many people are giving her a pass for behaviour I perceive to be obv scum.

Going back, my biggest gripe with Murder's kamikaze proposal which makes me doubt them is that I don't think it's Gypyx due to how he was focused on the Clidd/MT slot. Gypyx was the one who highlighted Clidd's meta being indicative of the slot's scumminess before Pink Ball caught Morning Tweet out - which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that. Especially when MT was universally middle of the pack read back in D1 until PB exposed her. Also the fact that MariaR voted Gypyx. I distrust her and I feel compelled to innately believe in the person she's voting for.

[SirCakez]

murder's AtE is working on me :/
feeling tempted to vote Gyp
his post sorta feel like scum frustrated a miselim is slipping through their fingers

[SirCakez]

-Hard push cake and back off to push my scum buddy instead
-TR Pooky for protecting Kanna
-Claim MT is scum instead of Monty

FWIW:

1. I don't think a hard-push on cakez to a largely reactionary stance shift in the face of PB's case is particularly town indicative, and is in fact the sole reason you're so low in my PoE, other than sheeping the reads of the dead.
2. I don't see why agreeing with the majority there is particularly towny.
3. I actually would like to hear more about this. Where would you say you tried to shift the Monty-lim onto Tweets? I don't remember that, but if it did happen that is 100% the kind of thing that would make me reconsider my vote.

I think that the best argument for Murdertown is that early D1 he played a really strong town game. That fell apart when we got to the gated dayplay portion of the game, as Cheet put it, but that's completely understandable to me.



This game has been mired in a shithole of inactivity and low inertia plays, and to an extent I blame our success at PRs. I think both PB and Cheet played their roles incredibly well at night, and kinda shittily during the day. We haven't had a chance for people to make waves or push their own choices since early on D1, which produced an environment where scum pretty much didn't need to do anything to blend in. I fully believe we would have lost this game to Pooky if Cheet hadn't caught him mechanically, because town is so fucking demoralized. If the game ended right now and I had to award tiebreaks (assuming murder scum), my list would be PB>Cheet>Noraa>Cakez>Zaiden, and I know the primary pushes from Noraa and Cakez are wrong because they're on me. Murder would 100% be somewhere near the top as town, and tbh I'd probably put spf at the very top of the list because they didn't contribute at all to the dangerous position we're in.

This game has functionally changed. We're not looking at interactions anymore, but rather survivalism. Town no longer has to care about looking town themselves, they have to figure out the people who are trying to outlast the game. And the traditional skill of "Being town" is completely useless here, because the sole motivation of scum as of Pooky's flip is "Being town". Cheet acknowledged that he left us in a shitty position, and we (including me) have done nothing so far today to remedy it.

I put forward my list, and my reasoning, and I'm fairly certain I'm not so godlike that literally no one disagrees with it, but I HAVEN'T HEARD ANY ARGUMENTS THAT GO AGAINST IT, WHEN THOSE ARE LITERALLY THE BEST THING FOR THE THREAD RIGHT NOW.

Noraa and Cakez both put out paranoia feelers of "Maybe Jinglescum" and no one bit. I see two arguments for me to be town (and frankly, while they're valid or I'd be screaming for a maria/murder lim here instead of just passively supporting it, they're not locktowning by any means, even without the paranoia normally attributed to my scumgame by anyone who has been told anything about me, which I assume is everyone in this thread by now).

really good post Jingle
I concur with pretty much everything

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Noraa

awww why'd you roll scum

Easy vote

yes, that was an entrance vote, peoples rarely go on a hard serious push with those

plus the only way to sort noraa is emotion, so like, lol

huh okay

i think their reasoning is scummy, but applied in a towny way so it's ~fine~

I feel like this is a scum thing to say to justify getting off a bad read

not understeanding this one so idk, feels like it's stretchy to me tho

VOTE: cheetory6

what's pinging you?

This interaction went nowhere after SB responded.

maybe 'cause the answer was 300 posts later and i just didn't find answerable stuff / lost interesting? idk

People are legitimately scumreading me?

mostly that you're painfully null compared to your postcount

if ya got any super duper town post i'd be happy to have it pointed out though

Immediately walking back a scum read

ah yes, because only scum has changing viewpoints / a team to confront opinions with and see if their reads are just craziness

mostly that you're painfully null compared to your postcount

Ok, so you think I am scum trying to look good by highposting then? Bad method to get a read tbh.

Noraa, if you think I am scum for "bad faith approaching you", then I think you need to reconsider that read. I just don't want you to get away with doing nothing. Sure, you might think that me accusing you of that is surface level, but at the time, you really weren't doing much.

nah, it's more that like, if you were town, i'd expect you (including anyone else) to say something towny, here idk if i just can't see it, but your ISO is nullville to me

Same here.

same answer, although i don't feel proud about this post tbh

and also that i don't have anywhere else to go tbh lol

lolwut

no one pinging me basically

Pooky does nothing with this.

you think it's worth a push? if so why didn't you push when i posted it

wait wtf where does that spring wagon comes from

Oof

spring wagon came from basically nowhere tho

and pretty sure i don't just stand there completely static as scum just saying "huh, that's a quick wagon

well, i'm gonna trust the peoples with meta on mwb so far VOTE: Cheeotry

cuz what has been said so far + this post

I'm not gonna not vote someone if I think their posting is scummy-looking just because it comes right after a vote on me. Lol.

overjustificaton imo

No substance here.

sorry to not make 5 pages long cases / have any super ultra strong tr's my guy, agree it's kinda scummy but that's all

Sup y'all

Iv has a TR on mwb so imma leave him be UNVOTE:

Dunno where to go next though

Forgetting where his vote was? Also has no idea where to push, waiting for town to do something.

forgetting where my vote is is a thing i do as town as I said before, i'd even argue it's more likely to happen to me as town but whatever

love that conclusion tho

has no idea where to push = he's scum waiting for town to eat himself while his buddies are getting pushed, man, i'm so big brain scum

So just pressure?

I can get behind that, don't expect me to stick around if his answers are decent though VOTE: zaiden

Fake pressure, setting up the hop off the wagon. Not something I think you say if you think the person you are voting has a chance of being scum.

ah yes, deliberately making zaiden see he's not being really pushed by me, t'was prob a bad post, but i could've definetly sticked to him in a parallel universe

Cake and Maria are scum together

VOTE: Cake

VOTE: Cakez

i can get behind that

Pure sheep

yes

Even if the Murder case wasn't that good, these responses read scummily to me.

[midwaybear]

5202 It ain't much. Pushing MT and feeling average about Pooky are totally feasible options as scum imo. Iirc, you didn't really push MT, but it was more like throwing suspicion at her? If I'm wrong, you can pull up quotes. Also, I don't know if this game is completely binary between you and murder right now. You said you were sus on Noraa, and I actually thought that a little as well. Maybe you can dive into others like Noraa. We have time, and there's no need to rush as long as we're using it well.

5207 Nothing about Gypyx's posts have given me that impression. Also, Murder isn't even ATEing really.

which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that.

I actually think Gypyx's scumread on clidd might have been too good to be true.
Of course, I don't want to scumread people for being too good, but I normally don't see people scumread for making six ok posts and then replacing out without relation to the game.

Also, this might have been missed. But my read on Maria has shifted to lean-town because she has changed virtually nothing about her play. Her general trend for the beginning few days has been to push a couple of reads and make some hammers. I think it was initially suspicious, but I think the repeated nature of it makes it somewhat townie.
That being said, some people were saying that Spring's interactions with Maria looked good for her. These people pulled up quotes where Spring had paranoia on Maria iirc. I think I actually thought that those interactions were scummy at the time because the paranoia could be TMI Maria scum. Definitely need to revisit that and expand my thoughts.
Also, agree with Jingle about apathy. I'm guilty of it too, but I'm also slightly more optimistic that we'll be able to figure things out (fingers crossed).

Even if the Murder case wasn't that good, these responses read scummily to me.

What reads scummily? This is completely unhelpful, and it makes you look a little scummy. Come on, give us some more

[midwaybear]

Also, we have two flipped power roles, and there probably should be more?
Right now, with only watchers flipped, it seems like a lot of our power is based around that role. I'm not sure if we only have two TPRs and watchers get somewhat stronger as game goes on? I don't think we should massclaim, but it is definitely an option and could provide a nice spark for the game.
However, I do think scum are incentivized to fakeclaim watcher here, and I'm not sure if I can tell between a real and fakeclaim.
Hmm

[midwaybear]

Why are people townreading Gamma? I think he has been extremely underwhelming and is being townread for doing nothing.
I see that he has softed some kind of role, but he still doesn't inspire much confidence.

[Gypyx]

5202
I actually think Gypyx's scumread on clidd might have been too good to be true.
Of course, I don't want to scumread people for being too good, but I normally don't see people scumread for making six ok posts and then replacing out without relation to the game.

i got an SR on clidd because MT was pinging me, and while discussing with my team, iv went "clidd has also pretty weird posts"

so no, that's far from me seeing clidd's 6 posts and being "ya this is scum, bring forth the holy hand grenade"

[Gamma Emerald]

I think it’s less that people TR me and more that they don’t SR me, at least not as much as Maria/Murder/Gypyx

[Gypyx]

Okay, I've been living under a rock and only just caught onto the situation in Texas. Stay safe, Jingle. Hope you, your friend and your family over there make it through no problem.

Thinking back on interactions throughout the game, especially the steep dropout in activity, I can accept that Murder is within the POE range. But the way Murder is saying vote Gypyx after they die makes me think it might not be them? I dunno, I really hesitate when people go in with a death wish in real life because it's quite often townie frustration rather than scum resignation. But you can't read these things like tone/body language on an online game. So I'm gonna have to go with unsure here. But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning. However, I just feel that MariaR has been so much scummier this game. If this game is four scum as people have posited, I've already given my prior reasoning for believing why it's MariaR. And I'm not convinced by the counter arguments suggesting why she might be town. Maybe I just don't know her well enough. But I find it crazy how many people are giving her a pass for behaviour I perceive to be obv scum.

Going back, my biggest gripe with Murder's kamikaze proposal which makes me doubt them is that I don't think it's Gypyx due to how he was focused on the Clidd/MT slot. Gypyx was the one who highlighted Clidd's meta being indicative of the slot's scumminess before Pink Ball caught Morning Tweet out - which is something I definitely didn't know and assume many others didn't either. I don't think scum would bring their partner into the spotlight like that. Especially when MT was universally middle of the pack read back in D1 until PB exposed her. Also the fact that MariaR voted Gypyx. I distrust her and I feel compelled to innately believe in the person she's voting for.

by the way zaiden, there's only one scum left, so for your last paragraph, if you think anyone is scum, that means everyone else is town

[Gypyx]

The only things I found compelling about murders ‘case’ on you were the awkward interactions scum had towards you, tbh, and I don’t see any way for you to debunk “it was weird that scum had a detailed read on a bunch of players but called gypyx town with functionally no reasoning.”

If you’re town here, you should focus on two things: litigation of your strong reads and pointing out things that make you strongly town. If there’s something that isn’t being considered that strongly makes you town, that’s worth bringing up. But honestly, a better use of your time would be trying to explain the things you feel strongly about that will matter if we do flip you.

Do you have a strong scumread on Noraa? Why? What discounts the mountain of circumstantial evidences pointing to Noraa town? Where do you get the pings that Noraa is a deep wolf looking to endgame?

Do you townread Maria? Why? Is there some interaction where scum just treated her in a way that would be unnatural for a buddy? Some push she made that we’re not considering?

Honestly, the latter is more useful than the former, because by their nature at this point, all towncases have to be either genuine or correct (or both).

i see, busy rn but will do

[Jingle]

I think gamma's play is overall decently town, but not locktown.

The lack of awareness of the plan to vend to cheet, the softclaim, and the forgetting pooky flipped scum all seem town at a glance. We just have a really high bar for towntelling this game.

I'd be surprised if Murder/Gyp didn't end the game.

These are my town reasons for gamma. I’d be happy to hear another view mwb

[Jingle]

Okay, I've been living under a rock and only just caught onto the situation in Texas. Stay safe, Jingle. Hope you, your friend and your family over there make it through no problem.

Where I’m at in Texas and due to my old hobby of winter survival camping I’m in absolutely no danger and never was, just fairly inconvenienced. Thanks for the thoughts though.

[midwaybear]

I’d be happy to hear another view mwb

I wouldn't put it past him to fake any of that as scum. I remember townreading him for similar reasons in a secret alt game where he was scum.
Forgetting Pooky flipped scum is just WIFOM and shouldn't be used to make a read upon imo.
Not being aware of the plan to vend fruit to Cheetory points more towards not being aware of the thread in general which is nai.
His softclaim is probably a bit more complicated, but him wanting to play it cagey with his results seems more like scum secrecy than town. I do remember you pointing out he softed a while back, and that might change my mind.

[SirCakez]

What reads scummily? This is completely unhelpful, and it makes you look a little scummy. Come on, give us some more

I was hoping nobody would ask because I can't really explain it. Mostly the tone of it feels indignant in a bad way.

[MURDERSUNNY]

3. I actually would like to hear more about this. Where would you say you tried to shift the Monty-lim onto Tweets? I don't remember that, but if it did happen that is 100% the kind of thing that would make me reconsider my vote.

I didn't, there was no point I had no town cred. But I very explicitly said to not be surprised if Monty was town and MT was the scum and I don't think I would have done that as scum.

[MURDERSUNNY]

But if people reckon town Murder would fight his way out of being wagon'd, then I reckon this resignation is rather damning.

I am fighting out of it, using slight AtE which is exactly what I would do as scum because I have the same motivation here that I would have as scum. Which is exactly why you should discount all of it. I admit I have some suss interactions with scum and I said to BoP me at the start of the game. I haven't really gotten to make good on that, except that I was very willing to flip SB and I did call that MT could very well be the scum of the 3 watcher results. Pooky I missed on. So there's not really a chance for me to do that now, except to take my shot and you can all decide to lim me now and give me my shot posthumously or let me take it now and kill me tomorrow.

[MURDERSUNNY]

That being said, some people were saying that Spring's interactions with Maria looked good for her. These people pulled up quotes where Spring had paranoia on Maria iirc. I think I actually thought that those interactions were scummy at the time because the paranoia could be TMI Maria scum. Definitely need to revisit that and expand my thoughts.

My read pre SB flip was that Maria could be scum with SB, fwiw.

[MURDERSUNNY]

I think it’s less that people TR me and more that they don’t SR me, at least not as much as Maria/Murder/Gypyx

pretty much