Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[RLotus]

As far as my interactions with Datisi, I've found him increasingly town over the course of the game. Once that happens, scum is fucked there. I will town block Datisi hard and NKing is the only way out of that. We have played a reasonable number of games together, and Id like to think I know his town play reasonably well.

Yeah I can buy that like I said I'm not jumping to conclusions with that yet

After rereading IVD, maybe I was being unfair at a couple points. I can't say I town read him exactly, but I'll give him breathing room and keep evaluating there

UNVOTE:

Where specifically were you being unfair to Italiano?


Also, who has played with Lotus before? I have a question.

italiano who would you vote for if you had to vote somewhere?

I’ve reread the game

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

Everyone else is pretty null

So what I did irt to the Green/Duchess interaction is I read both sides as different alignments and Duchess was the most likely town between the two. In a t/s connection I couldn’t see Duchess as scum and Green as town. It could be a t/t connection, but after rereading the interaction multiple times, I feel like Duchess was more pure than Green was, so would town . It also isn’t that likely it’s a s/s bus connection on Day 1, so...

VOTE: Green Crayons

Although I’d be okay with anyone within my limpool.

This I called him scummy for since he was already settling on a POE when so many alignments are up in the air. Reading back RTP was actually prompting him to give who he wants to elim, so that was a bit of an unfair read.

My suspicion of Italiano isn't gone to be clear. I need to keep evaluating there, a tentative scumlean you could say.

[RLotus]

Does anyone have an actual reason to townread VPB? Like other than tone and gut, and actually evaluate his play today. If you look back he really sticks out like a sore thumb.

[DkKoba]

Does anyone have an actual reason to townread VPB? Like other than tone and gut, and actually evaluate his play today. If you look back he really sticks out like a sore thumb.

I just see his play as making logical sense from a town PoV - VP has been the target of scum pushes before as FL has taken advantage there, for example in Bending.

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

Does anyone have an actual reason to townread VPB? Like other than tone and gut, and actually evaluate his play today. If you look back he really sticks out like a sore thumb.

I just see his play as making logical sense from a town PoV - VP has been the target of scum pushes before as FL has taken advantage there, for example in Bending.

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

OH FFS

i am so bad

[RLotus]

RL has also dropped in my reads

His iso being stagnant with reads the entire game, then when this is pointed out he comes back and starts being active in a way that to me seems like scum panic to put out good town stuff.

Yes panicking when obvtown #1 is trying to elim obvtown #2. Good scum tactic.

[VP Baltar]

The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP.

So? I'll change my reads whenever the fuck I want. If I see you acting scummy I'll flip on you like a gator with a turkey leg on Thanksgiving. (I'm definitely not making up Florida sayings here).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RLotus

See! Did it again!

[RLotus]

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

yeah because BM is town

[Reformed Toxic Player]

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

yeah because BM is town

but wai

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

do you think elements is scum btw?

[RLotus]

The easiest example to see is your absolute lack of progression of RTP.

So? I'll change my reads whenever the fuck I want. If I see you acting scummy I'll flip on you like a gator with a turkey leg on Thanksgiving. (I'm definitely not making up Florida sayings here).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RLotus

See! Did it again!

Yeah the thing is you keep trying to gauge interest that you make no mention of being scummy beforehand. And with Italiano and andre specifically, you were fence sitting them, yet you were trying to gauge interest on a wagon of them. Like wtf kind of solving are you doing???

[Datisi]

Harumi Ayasato *
Green Crayons
Lunar Martian midwaybear
Reformed Toxic Player
Testarossa * Battle Mage
Andresvmb
Elements
ItalianoVD
VP Baltar
Datisi
Dunnstral
Duchess *
RLotus

from memory, it would be something like:

town:
baltar
battle mage / duchess
green / midway
---
confusing null:
? elements ?
???? rtp ????
? dunnstral ?
?? andres ??
? lotus ?
---
scum:
harumi
italiano

confusing null is probably the biggest priority for figuring out rn

pedits: not read

[RLotus]

I'm just having trouble seeing Elements/BM/Baltar team, but we'll have to hear from GC more. I hope GC is not purposefully avoiding thread to avoid having to answer about my scumread on them.

yeah because BM is town

but wai

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

do you think elements is scum btw?

Elements is kinda null. Idk I kinda liked his reaction to BM. I wouldn't say that's a bad wagon to push, but I have 0 confidence in it.

[RLotus]

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

BM does these shitpushes constantly when he is town. If he has actual good reasoning on day 1, then he is probably scum.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE:

Y'all spewed 10-some-odd pages since yesterday afternoon and work threw up some emergencies on me. I'll start reviewing tonight.

(It better be a fun read.)

[Reformed Toxic Player]

like counter the points ive made against them in how they are approaching the game.

BM does these shitpushes constantly when he is town. If he has actual good reasoning on day 1, then he is probably scum.

that's annoying lmfao - but it doesnt clear the elements / BM interactions looking rly bad.

[RLotus]

Why is he so willing to jump on like whoever's name gets thrown around as scum? That's not a towny mindset. He isn't coming from a solving perspective. He was willing to elim Duchess, Italiano, Andre, Elements, Dunn, me, and you thus far, based on the mood of the thread and if they can get traction.

I often do this as town simply because my vote is all I get. If I don't throw it around wildly what's the point? I don't think this is inherently scummy.

Being willing to wagon whoever whenever is blatantly scummy. Like his opinions aren't coming from his own convictions.

nah, moving the vote is more townie for me. scum scared to move their vote to ruffle feathers. depends on circumstances though

Moving votes isn't scummy. The way I see you moving around your vote, you have some kind of reasoning. And usually you do land on someone that you are fixed on. VPB entertains any option he gets to wagon on. He does not usually have reasoning. You push where you think scum are, VPB where he thinks will get traction.

Btw you are pushing a town elim

[Datisi]

i'm rereading 869

then i'm rereading this page

and i'm wondering if lotus is town here, for the sole reason of "is scum really *this* tone-deaf?"

[ItalianoVD]

There’s a couple of things that are bugging me:

ok let me try something
VOTE: italiano

What were you trying to do here?

I don’t like 696. Why do you have favorable reads for players you scumread.

I went back and read 659 again as I didn’t catch it the first time. Maybe I’m townleaning the wrong slot.

Also what was your goal in 541? Is this why you voted me? If so, doesn’t make sense for you to be townreading me now.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

There’s a couple of things that are bugging me:

ok let me try something
VOTE: italiano

What were you trying to do here?

I don’t like 696. Why do you have favorable reads for players you scumread.

I went back and read 659 again as I didn’t catch it the first time. Maybe I’m townleaning the wrong slot.

Also what was your goal in 541? Is this why you voted me? If so, doesn’t make sense for you to be townreading me now.

that post in 696 was an exercise in finding reasons to townread ppl.

why shouldn't I townread you? are you not town?

[ItalianoVD]

that post in 696 was an exercise in finding reasons to townread ppl.

So why did you scumread people after doing it?

why shouldn't I townread you? are you not town?

Your progression feels weird. You townread me by gut which is fine, then I assume you scumread me when you voted for me, and now you townread me for seemingly something you scumread me for?? I have no clue really because you never said why you voted me.

And you didn’t answer all my questions.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

that post in 696 was an exercise in finding reasons to townread ppl.

So why did you scumread people after doing it?

why shouldn't I townread you? are you not town?

Your progression feels weird. You townread me by gut which is fine, then I assume you scumread me when you voted for me, and now you townread me for seemingly something you scumread me for?? I have no clue really because you never said why you voted me.

And you didn’t answer all my questions.

Because they didn't come out as towny enough??

bruh?

why are u asking me to restate shit ive already gone over.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

i already stated i had voted u for the contradiction from our scum pt in 799 and what u said in this game

[VP Baltar]

Gonna shoot some hip reads as promised:

Town as fuck:

Battle Mage

- Stated this already, but his play is just loose and ready to rumble. Not what i saw from scum BM before.

Datisi

- Felt a little slow off the blocks, but he's not pushing in lots of directions and I'm frequently nodding along with his posts.

Probably town:

midwaybear

- his play here reminds me a bit of when he was town in a game we shared. Reads are consistent with his pushes.

Green Crayons

- Has made logical, if aggressive arguments. I am probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased toward the olds.

ItalianoVD

- He has said some scummy things, but he's just spewing a ton if he is scum. Also, Lotus' laser focus is disingenuous, meaning IVD is likely town.

Andresvmb

- I think he has had some weird opinions (like calling Testa town off nothing, though now that read seems correct), but overall he seems to be making logical pushes.

I still have some concerns, but unlikely to want a yeet on them today:

Elements

- I can't say I hard disagree with their positions, but wish they were in the thread a bit more.

Duchess

- I'm still not settled on whether their aggression with GC was legit or fabricated. I also don't love that they've disappeared from the thread when the spotlight went off. Still, some of their thread spewing felt like it would be very hard to fake as scum.

I go back and forth:

Reformed Toxic Player

- Main reservation here is the point I made about laughing off a considerable goof, and that RTP is a good scum player. I will say that their play this game seems less chaos making and more trying to actually solve the game, which gives me town vibes. I'm still trying to sort how much of that I'm feeling based on the changed playstyle.

Harumi Ayasato

- lol, who?

Kill, kill, kill

Dunnstral

- explanation given.

RLotus

- this dude tunneled the fuck out of Italiano all game, and then is acting like I'm taking public polling to decide where I place my vote. Bad faith arguments and tunnely behavior is two strikes in my book.

[Duchess]

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

hot take but the top 3 wagons here are TvTvT

I think the likelihood they are all town seems quite low actually.

Italiano is opportunistic enough to just be bad scum here, but maybe elements has some thoughts to add on that since he caught him before.

Dunn's answers sound like they are coming from a vitamin salesman. "You will FEEEL younger, I swear."

Elements has been pretty absent, but I felt town there early.

"Absent" is an extremely generous way of describing Elements's thread activity at the time. Were you aware they were dodging my direct questions while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines? There is substance in Elements's absence that you didn't touch on here at all.

I don't like the way you've approached RTP in this post. Rather than caring to understand how they've come to those conclusions, you show up to throw a little one-liner grease on the fire for each wagon and then drop it. What's your current read of RTP?

Re: GC - over aggression is way more likely to be a scum trait, imo. Scum are fake scum hunting, so will often push points past an obvious conclusion because that would mean the scum would then have to come up with an entirely new angle to push. That is work when you are scum. Town is way more relaxed because those lines of inquiry emerge naturally as a result of having no actual clue what is true and what is false.

That, of course, doesn't mean town can't be aggressive. I'm just looking at authenticity vs. manufactured outrage.

Re: "dodging" your questions and elements - I don't know what you want me to say. You think I should be hyped up about some interaction you're having with Elements? I don't remember reading anything of substance there, but maybe I skimmed it or it seemed boring to me. We're other players picking up on this? Or you think there is a reason I, in particular, should have noticed this?

My current read of RTP is lean town. I'm trying to recalibrate to the change in style by Koba. They are a very good player, and I tend to not assign concrete reads early in a game anyhow because I'm often wrong and need to stay flexible until I have a good working theory of the game. I try to especially stay flexible on players who are very good.

You didn't answer my question. You have mentioned the Duchess/GC/Italiano debacle several times but haven't provided any conclusions, up to this point. Why did you say "aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious"?

My point is you made the assumption that Elements's lack of activity was merely being an "absence" when it was clearly evasion (something to which they themself have admitted), which tells me you haven't exactly been paying attention to the slot in a way that town looking for answers might be. If Elements was not enough on your radar for you to notice the blatant question-dodging and thread-fleeing, why did you choose to comment about them here at all? I find it harder to trust that the statements you make are true and genuine.

This answer doesn't address my concerns about your interaction with RTP. If you think it will be more difficult to read them than other players, or if you're giving special attention to your read of that slot, why didn't you engage further on that point if your reads were so opposite? Did you not care to understand how (or why, if scum) RTP came to those conclusions?

[Duchess]

The thread length has doubled since last I played, so you'll all have to bear with me. I didn't anticipate such a busy weekend, but I'm hoping to be re-established and fully caught up over the course of this week. I'm still working on a thorough readthrough from the top as well, but I will say 20 pages was a lot easier to commit to than 40.

[Reformed Toxic Player]

Gonna shoot some hip reads as promised:

Town as fuck:

Battle Mage

- Stated this already, but his play is just loose and ready to rumble. Not what i saw from scum BM before.

Datisi

- Felt a little slow off the blocks, but he's not pushing in lots of directions and I'm frequently nodding along with his posts.

Probably town:

midwaybear

- his play here reminds me a bit of when he was town in a game we shared. Reads are consistent with his pushes.

Green Crayons

- Has made logical, if aggressive arguments. I am probably due for an iso reread of GC to make sure I'm not biased toward the olds.

ItalianoVD

- He has said some scummy things, but he's just spewing a ton if he is scum. Also, Lotus' laser focus is disingenuous, meaning IVD is likely town.

Andresvmb

- I think he has had some weird opinions (like calling Testa town off nothing, though now that read seems correct), but overall he seems to be making logical pushes.

I still have some concerns, but unlikely to want a yeet on them today:

Elements

- I can't say I hard disagree with their positions, but wish they were in the thread a bit more.

Duchess

- I'm still not settled on whether their aggression with GC was legit or fabricated. I also don't love that they've disappeared from the thread when the spotlight went off. Still, some of their thread spewing felt like it would be very hard to fake as scum.

I go back and forth:

Reformed Toxic Player

- Main reservation here is the point I made about laughing off a considerable goof, and that RTP is a good scum player. I will say that their play this game seems less chaos making and more trying to actually solve the game, which gives me town vibes. I'm still trying to sort how much of that I'm feeling based on the changed playstyle.

Harumi Ayasato

- lol, who?

Kill, kill, kill

Dunnstral

- explanation given.

RLotus

- this dude tunneled the fuck out of Italiano all game, and then is acting like I'm taking public polling to decide where I place my vote. Bad faith arguments and tunnely behavior is two strikes in my book.

i dont get why ur so hung up about the mistake when i very clearly had an immediate reasoning for it - one that is completely plausible.