Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

also i believe you haven't answered me some stuff from yesterday.

If you want an answer to something ask it now. I am not going to go back and look for questions I may have missed.

[VP Baltar]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

Probably should check your facts on that

[Andresvmb]

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

You could make this point about literally anyone not voting Italiano at the end of the day.

[Andresvmb]

Probably should check your facts on that

You’re voting with them on Dunn. What do I have wrong in your view? I’m just trying to understand - why are you so confident you’re right when all of you were so wrong yesterday?

[Datisi]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

[Datisi]

also i believe you haven't answered me some stuff from yesterday.

If you want an answer to something ask it now. I am not going to go back and look for questions I may have missed.

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

[Andresvmb]

i mean like
ok

let's imagine town!italiano for a moment. from his pov, you got me. this annoying fucker who keeps calling you scum right. you're being voted. you go "ok vote me out then catch the scum on my wagon on day 2". who is scum on his wagon? no clue. his green flip will "give insight" on those who weren't on him. what insight? none.

like if you're town and you're being voted you already know your own alignment you know the votes are wrong. if you're showing some thought about the game ("there's scum on my wagon") then surely you're actually thinking about who tf is the scum on your wagon. and i'm trying to get it out of him, like i'm trying to provoke him into actually giving a response.

(a) in response, he actually gives insight on who he thinks is scum, who isn't scum, shows any sign of a will to live, or even tells me to go fuck myself, idk literally anything
(b) he shuts down, goes "people will figure it out", and shuts up again bc of fear of spweing partners

what do you think, which way does (b) cut?

I don’t have any confidence you can correctly point out the Scum at this point. So I’m going to formulate my own views while I buy some time. Ending the day quickly and not letting any of the players sitting on the periphery just remain so is not going to help long-term.

[Datisi]

???
i'm not trying to "end the day quickly", i'm voting who i find suspicious, and i already said if there's a lolhammer they're getting policied tomorrow

[Andresvmb]

???
i'm not trying to "end the day quickly", i'm voting who i find suspicious, and i already said if there's a lolhammer they're getting policied tomorrow

I didn’t accuse you of wanting to end the day quickly. But multiple votes all quickly piling on absolutely risks that possibility. And we’re not really in a good enough place to want to see that happen.

[RLotus]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

They did include you in the poe for a while

[Andresvmb]

The problem here is that everybody is looking at the game as if Italiano was the inevitable conclusion to the day and no one else had any chance of getting voted out. But I don’t remember it feeling like that at all. I thought Italiano ended up being the execution because, yes, to some extent none of the alternatives really mustered enough support. That’s obviously the case. But it’s not like no one else was suspected or pushed, or that no one thought Italiano could possibly flip Town. We really don’t think the Scum sealed the outcome in any way? If the Scum felt no pressure during the day, then yeah maybe they didn’t care to create any sort of stir and they just let the Town eat themselves. And that does happen a lot around here so I might just be overly positive on folks in general. But given the player list, I want to believe this is not true.

I think the loudest pushers for anything are probably Town here anyway because well, it’s how it tends to be. But I will be damned if I don’t at least push people to think a little harder about what’s happening.

[Datisi]

it was start/early day i believe, that's my point. iirc, wasn't in either poes they put out (the before and after hammer one) and i don't think they mentioned scum!me for a whike before that either. (correct me if i'm wrong, i'm working on sleep deprived memory atm)

pedit i'm not reading

[Andresvmb]

and rn im looking between andres/datisi for most likely scum.

theres a reason i think pearl fey is town but i wanna wait to reveal it to see if that wagon builds cuz i wanna see game state before i out it cuz i think its relatively strong of a reason to townread them.

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

I think you're a bit too complacent + just ur energy feels off from when I have seen you as town.

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

ur whole energy is complacent - its not just 1 post its the way u present urself.

i cant just quote 1 post - its the whole collection of them that screams it to me.

rtp, why are you asking me that when you still refuse to work with me?

I'm not sure where I'm refusing to work with you.

I don't think its unreasonable for me to ask what your progression on a slot has been.

i think italiano is v towny here

I feel as though if i am right on elements/GC then datisi/vp contain last maf based on how quick they both reacted to my fos on those 2 - please sheep this if both elements and GC indeed flip scum.

The idea that RTP had Datisi consistently as Town is obvious horseshit.

[Datisi]

andres, that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing tehy had me consistently as town *after a certain point* - i believe it was somewhere around me voting them, or a bit later. like i k n o w they suspected me for a while on d1

[Andresvmb]

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

This is literally incorrect as I just pointed out. So you did argue it, and are wrong. So please stop.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dunn

Works for me.

I will not be consolidating onto Dunn. Sorry.

[Andresvmb]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

andres, that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing tehy had me consistently as town *after a certain point* - i believe it was somewhere around me voting them, or a bit later. like i k n o w they suspected me for a while on d1

And these are far from the same. Like obviously not the same. So the second one is just revisionist history once you get called out on your bullshit. Because the first post is that - bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

You were clearly trying to convince whoever expressed any doubt that Italiano was Scum. And you did it repeatedly. Even making the argument that if they were Town, they weren’t that useful (implicitly - particularly in that long post I quoted on this page), so what’s the harm? Why would I TR you for all of that?

[Datisi]

ok. i misremembered. it wasn't for a little bit, they showed *some* suspicion on me for a while. i remembered 275 as being close to the end of their scumlean on me, bc i forgot about the "oh datisi/baltar reacted quickly to suspicion, scum there if these are red" bit. sorry, i'm running on fumes, and it was a while ago.

i'm saying that at *some point* (which i thought was closer to start of day 1, but turns out is around the middle) rtp switched their read of me, and was consistent in it until eod. which brings me back to asking why are you singling me out like that, acting as if they didn't have a townread on me at all. (and like, i'm going with the assumption that someone's reads in the later part of the day trump those in the earlier part.)

[Datisi]

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

You were clearly trying to convince whoever expressed any doubt that Italiano was Scum. And you did it repeatedly. Even making the argument that if they were Town, they weren’t that useful (implicitly - particularly in that long post I quoted on this page), so what’s the harm? Why would I TR you for all of that?

yes. yes i did because i thought he was scum. and don't put words in my mouth, i didn't say you should/need to townread me for that. i'm asking why is it scummy. if you think my arguments were bad, fine, say that and let's discuss it, but i don't feel like that's the argument you're making?

[Andresvmb]

which brings me back to asking why are you singling me out like that, acting as if they didn't have a townread on me at all. (and like, i'm going with the assumption that someone's reads in the later part of the day trump those in the earlier part.)

I’m not just singling you out. But you’re voting Dunn while thinking everything is good and dandy when you were so obviously wrong D1 and you don’t seem to even want to re-evaluate what happened. I would say that applies to a lot of the Dunn voters who’ve remained where they are actually. And you were vocal and wrong - and seemed smug about it. You should feel the need to re-read and make some arguments and you’ve made a basic one about Dunn and that’s it. Do you agree with RLotus that there’s few chances of there being Scum on the Italiano wagon? Do you really believe that’s the universe we’re in right now? And what are the rest of your reads?

[Andresvmb]

if you think my arguments were bad, fine, say that and let's discuss it, but i don't feel like that's the argument you're making?

What is there to discuss? Italiano is dead and it’s in large part because of you. So unless you want to actually express some more detailed reads all around, why would I not put you on the spot? You deserve it.

[Andresvmb]

Where is @Elements? I want to see what you think now.

[Andresvmb]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

You kidding? You know scum know who the town are, right?

You said you were SR’ing Dunn and midwaybear. Today. But your explanation is something that literally didn’t happen. So what are you saying exactly?

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

Also then why is Dunn again voting for midway then? Do you think it’s a Partner that is insisting that their buddy is Scum? They could easily pivot somewhere else if that were the case no? Do you think there’s no chance midway gets flipped here?