Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[VP Baltar]

but something tells me neither or them are gonna hear it

I agree with you and I'm intentionally not responding to his wall because it is a huge distraction 2 days from deadline. I certainly have THOUGHTS, but I've tried to keep my response why this is dumb concise.

All we need to be doing right now is yeeting midway.

[VP Baltar]

Andres, why is midway town?

[Andresvmb]

answer my earlier q of where you got the feeling baltar was encouraging me into pushing dunn? like i know you think i'm focusing on the wrong things or whatever so please can you work w me here?

I was going through the entire game to try and give some thoughts. I’ll get to this point once I’m done re-reading I’m sure. What I’ll say though is that maybe my earlier description was incorrect. VPB has been insistent throughout that Dunn is Scum. So instead of them encouraging your read of Dunn as Scum, perhaps you guys were just looking to agree on what made Dunn Scummy. I think some of this you have seen today as well.

[Andresvmb]

can you tell me why you're town on midway

My read on midway is kind of soft. If you recall, I was skeptical of Lunar Martian (midway’s predecessor), and indicated that I felt they could be Scum. See 516, 531. And in 655, I was very critical of their POE. I even emphasized that they wouldn’t look good if Italiano flipped Town, which of course is what we found.

However, RTP in 1566 made a point about their predecessor. And so I have over time tempered my skepticism to account for some of the arguments RTP was making.

I didn’t find the Vanilla Town claim sway my read either way. I do think midway needs to post some more and put more content out there. And I definitely wanted them to vote more aggressively D1 for example (see 1588).

[Andresvmb]

where is andres setting himself up to vote you?

Gotta admit I was sort of trolling when I said 2340, but part of me viewed it as some sort of shade that Andres could point to when he decides to hammer me.

There’s also something inherently ridiculous about this post that I don’t believe Scum would make.

Assume for a minute that my view of the game is dead wrong. Which, again, absolutely a possibility. Say VPB is Town, maxwell is Town, and their pushes (or their predecessors pushes) and votes against RTP and Italiano were just wrong-headed, and others have hid behind say RLotus and you as the loud Town voices (or RLotus is Scum). Why is midway not full on TR’ing me, asking me for help, instead of trolling me and pushing me as Scum. How is that a sensible way not to get executed, when out of the three people that they identified as Scum, I was the last one sitting outside of their wagon and could have voted for them in a heartbeat with them at E-1?

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

[Andresvmb]

And why in the hell is maxwell now having second thoughts about midwaybear? That definitely raised some flags for me. You didn’t find that somewhat suspicious? What has midway done at this point at E-1 that would really change your view of how things are developing?

[RLotus]

I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

I disagree so much. Why are scum taking such a hard route as opposed to just jump on RTP or Elements when that would be so much safer. Like you are a highly townread slot and my push on you already has shown to have a lot of resistance.

Because it is stupid and bad faith. It hasn't met resistance so much as you're making terrible points that you're trying to take out of context. Anyone can go read the stuff you're pointing to and see how much of a misrepresentation it is.

Multiple people calling you town is indeed resistance. It's like you're not even trying to evaluate the people pushing on you, but instead calling them scum with blanket terms like bad faith.

I'm not surprised as you haven't been trying to solve anyone this game. It's funny that you call my logic stupid
when it is indeed true that you haven't been trying to solve and mainly riding the fence.

It is also rich that you call my logic stupid when your two top scumreads are 1. OMGUSing me, with terrible reasoning(bad faith blahblahblah) 2. Dunn for lurking, even though you've been repeatedly told that he lurks as both alignments. But, you keep Dunn as one of your top scum you can't get it through your head it seems.

@RLotus, why after posting this (and I agree), are you voting Dunn? Do you actually believe Dunn will flip Scum? VPB is still doing what you have previously criticized them for - but this time, to me. Do you not agree?

Yes he is doing the same thing he did to Duchess and I trying to undercut and discredit your arguments with bad faith arguments even though I don't think you are in bad faith here. It is a scummy looking reaction, but I iso'd a town game from where he did exactly this. It seems this is just how he defends himself. Not to discount that he could do this as scum.

About dunn idk dude. I don't like that maxwell and dgb went from midway to dunn and I assume vpb and datisi will probably join too. The reason I didn't like the midway wagon was because I figured there had to be scum on there, but it seems like this one will be identical. I don't know what's going on.

[Andresvmb]

midway's responses here are making me doubt myself somewhat. The comment about him "sort of trolling" andres, the paranoia that andres is scum setting up to vote him. it looks believable enough?

It’s funny, this is what they said was the reason, which I agree with mind you. But unless maxwell knows midwaybear’s and my alignment, why is this their interpretation? I could be Scum avoiding their wagon since they’re my buddy, and we could be distancing. I know for a fact that’s not the case. But maxwell doesn’t. It’s almost like maxwell is chickening out last minute from executing Town.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

[RLotus]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

You think midway is more likely scum than dunn now?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

You think midway is more likely scum than dunn now?

Yeah. I think my wagon analysis of italiano points heavily to midway as scum there.

I do think if midway flips scum, dunn's vote D1 is worth looking at, but when I went back and compared Dunn's play here vs. te game we were scum together, he was right that he was more aggressive that game than here.

Not saying I love his play this game, but it was enough for me to question myself.

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi can you comment on VPB’s jarring about-face on Dunn here?

[RLotus]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Meaning one of the people that left his wagon are scum or?

[Andresvmb]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Can you elaborate on this? Because the breaks were applied by DGB and maxwell. Are you saying those players hopped on for Town cred, but one or both of them are potentially Scum?

[Datisi]

Why is midway not full on TR’ing me, asking me for help, instead of trolling me and pushing me as Scum. How is that a sensible way not to get executed, when out of the three people that they identified as Scum, I was the last one sitting outside of their wagon and could have voted for them in a heartbeat with them at E-1?

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

iirc, scum!midway has troubles coming up with reads. like his read on the three of us being scum bc we're active is pure nonsense, and he walked back from it not long after. like i can easily see hm knowing i'm about to latch onto him if he doesn't present *something*, and then he presents the first thing he comes up with, which was like... bad. why is he even voting baltar? because he's actively posting??? i don't know.

also he's not really pushing you as scum? hell he's voting *with* you right now.

[Datisi]

also like i know you said the vt claim doesn't sway you either way but look at the context around it. he's being grilled, his response to pressure is... like let's be real it's awful, but once he realized people aren't buying what he's selling and he's under intent he pops in, naked claims, jumps back into the void. that's not a town mindset. if his thoughts about me/you/baltar being scum were actually yknow genuine, i imagine he'd be in here arguing about it??? except he just disappeared???

[Datisi]

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

bc the dunn wagon sprung to life *after* he claimed? and he hasn't been in thread since that happened? like iirc, at the time he voted baltar, it was looking like a genuinely possible counterwagon, since you were voting there, and cookie was voting there before she decided to lolvote herself?

[Datisi]

And why in the hell is maxwell now having second thoughts about midwaybear? That definitely raised some flags for me. You didn’t find that somewhat suspicious? What has midway done at this point at E-1 that would really change your view of how things are developing?

i don't know if you missed it, but literally my first words today were "hello why is midwaybear still alive". while i didn't call out max by name, i said i think literally nothing midway's done should get him out of being executed today, so i think it's at least implied that i don't think maxwell's vote change makes any sense.

[VP Baltar]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Meaning one of the people that left his wagon are scum or?

Certainly plausible. Andres could be chainsawing here too, idk.

I want to flip midway and figure it out from there. There is certainly no reason based on his play to not flip him

[Datisi]

@Datisi can you comment on VPB’s jarring about-face on Dunn here?

if he's scum, he's making his own life more difficult than it needs to be. like how e a s y would it be for scum!baltar to go "oh look dunn wagon eh this isn't my ideal right now but i was sus of dunn so whatever haha i can vote there". instead he's here arguing for a midway yeet. it doesn't make sense for scum!him, unless baltar/dunn are scum together, and my dude, you're gonna need a lot to sell me on that.

[Datisi]

also he's not really pushing you as scum? hell he's voting *with* you right now.

actually like i wanna go back to this. andres, without looking at midway iso, why is midway voting baltar? ok, now look at his iso. why is he voting baltar? now i'm thinking about this and i feel more and more that the vote is agenda driven. i dunno if he's plain old trying to counterwagon or if he's trying to buddy up to you by encouraging your pet wagon but like

[Andresvmb]

Why is midway not full on TR’ing me, asking me for help, instead of trolling me and pushing me as Scum. How is that a sensible way not to get executed, when out of the three people that they identified as Scum, I was the last one sitting outside of their wagon and could have voted for them in a heartbeat with them at E-1?

And unless Dunn and midwaybear are both Scum together, why is midwaybear voting for VPB instead of trying to vote Dunn and survive?

iirc, scum!midway has troubles coming up with reads. like his read on the three of us being scum bc we're active is pure nonsense, and he walked back from it not long after. like i can easily see hm knowing i'm about to latch onto him if he doesn't present *something*, and then he presents the first thing he comes up with, which was like... bad. why is he even voting baltar? because he's actively posting??? i don't know.

also he's not really pushing you as scum? hell he's voting *with* you right now.

I’m not going to defend midway’s approach to their Scum Reads today because frankly what you’re saying is true - the reasoning was horrific. But think about what that means for a second. Did the Scum really think that the best way to approach the game was to attack the loudest players in the game, instead of say pressuring some of the easier slots to execute? Because let’s get real for a minute. There are much easier targets than VPB or me for an execution.

[Andresvmb]

if his thoughts about me/you/baltar being scum were actually yknow genuine, i imagine he'd be in here arguing about it??? except he just disappeared???

Multiple players have utterly failed to do this though. Do you not agree? What is DGB doing, for example? Are their positions genuine? How do we even know? They are not aggressively fighting for anything. Momrangal? They listed their view of the game, and they had Dunn as their top Town, and who did they have as Scum again? Me and maxwell? And where are they? How do we know if those reads are genuine? Because as far as I can tell, they’ve explained their read on maxwell but have completely failed to explain their read on me.

I guess my point is - not everybody playing subpar can be Scum. I have a tremendous amount of trouble differentiating bad from Scum. You could potentially be succumbing to a bit of that here.

[Andresvmb]

And I mean Italiano self-hammered, Elements repeatedly voted for themselves wanting to prove others were wrong by their own death. Green Crayons really didn’t claim properly I don’t care what anyone says. Cookie Monster claimed completely unprompted. I mean the list is long regarding sub-optimal play coming from Town.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no universe in which all those actions are all coming from Scum, and we know some of it came from Town for certain. So I would just caution against thinking that every player needs to be aggressively be putting their thoughts out there or have a strong presence to be Town.