Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

RLotus Green Crayons is not very Towny. If they were, RTP would not have suspected them. And you can’t get away from all the bad votes. Some discussion around two slots is not good enough to outweigh all of that.

We should listen to RTP's D1 suspicions.

Didn't Koba Express a scum read on you and well?

Yeah they placed me on their solve towards the end of the day.

Listen, if after everything I’ve been fighting for, you want to execute me first here, by all means. I’m so tired of this game, I won’t fight it too hard. You want to burn the Town to the ground with the worst mis-execution I would have ever been subjected to, go right ahead.

We shouldn't listen to RTP's D1 suspicions.

I didn’t say we shouldn’t act on RTPs suspicions D1. If you want to rely on them to execute me, by all means.

this is stupidly LAMIST

Andres would obviously kick and scream against his elim, regardless of alignment

I really won’t. It’s time that you actually commit to your nonsense and vote me.

[Datisi]

so... why did you join my midway's push yesterday? and you said in hindsight it doesn't seem mailicious to you, so why's it lowering your estimation of me?

you've got it backwards, i suspected midway before your push.

because midway flipped green

i know you did. but you joined when i was pushing there. therefore you obviously didn't have issues w it or you would've, idk, said something? and *after* midway flipped green, you said you reread and that you don't think my points were malicious. so how tf am i still getting out worse from it?

[Andresvmb]

I'm not 100% following what you're saying about comparing momrangal and midway though? Are you saying you think momrangal is in a similar situation today to where midway was yesterday?

Yeah slightly. But I’m playing the role of Datisi. I don’t know if anybody is really strongly defending Mom though.

[Green Crayons]

RLotus Green Crayons is not very Towny. If they were, RTP would not have suspected them. And you can’t get away from all the bad votes. Some discussion around two slots is not good enough to outweigh all of that.

We should listen to RTP's D1 suspicions.

Didn't Koba Express a scum read on you and well?

Yeah they placed me on their solve towards the end of the day.

Listen, if after everything I’ve been fighting for, you want to execute me first here, by all means. I’m so tired of this game, I won’t fight it too hard. You want to burn the Town to the ground with the worst mis-execution I would have ever been subjected to, go right ahead.

We shouldn't listen to RTP's D1 suspicions.

I didn’t say we shouldn’t act on RTPs suspicions D1. If you want to rely on them to execute me, by all means.

this is stupidly LAMIST

Andres would obviously kick and scream against his elim, regardless of alignment

I really won’t. It’s time that you actually commit to your nonsense and vote me.

scum gamesmanship

[Andresvmb]

I'm not sold on maxwell and GC being town.

I had maxwell in my earlier solve. But I think Town is somewhat underpowered without what I think their role is, which is why I’m thinking they’re somewhat clear.

I don't want to get into setup speculation too much, but we had a cop/doc combo this game, even if they were nerfed a bit. That's a good deal of town power. Unfortunately, the dice roll was strongly against town this game.

I can see this. But generally speaking whenever I feel in these games that the Town has a lot of power, it’s balanced out by more Town power hahaha

[Green Crayons]

gamemanship = trying to take control of the game

[Green Crayons]

so... why did you join my midway's push yesterday? and you said in hindsight it doesn't seem mailicious to you, so why's it lowering your estimation of me?

you've got it backwards, i suspected midway before your push.

because midway flipped green

i know you did. but you joined when i was pushing there. therefore you obviously didn't have issues w it or you would've, idk, said something? and *after* midway flipped green, you said you reread and that you don't think my points were malicious. so how tf am i still getting out worse from it?

i joined because i wanted to end the day and i thought midway was a good elim. i don't remember being swayed by your reasoning, but it didn't strike me as wrong either in the moment.

if you don't understand how a push against a town is a negative point that i consider as part of the totality of evaluating you, i don't know what to tell you. i don't know if your intentions were pure. just because i didn't think your points were "malicious" (your word that you've chosen for this convo repeatedly, scum don't need to be malicious btw) doesn't mean that they couldn't come from scum

[Green Crayons]

like, i'm still town reading you (I've said this, right?) but you being defensive about me having concerns that you were a strong push on a green flip--which is an obvious "whoa that's a thing I should consider" moment--is really thin skinned. what are you worried about?

[Andresvmb]

scum gamesmanship

Why are you attacking me without a vote? If you really think I’m trying to psych you out, I can honestly tell you that I’m not. Here the way I see it is you’ve been quietly in the background executing Town without explaining yourself really. I will grant you that if I’m Scum here, my Partner is probably Dunn (since I’ve basically attacked everyone else). But why am I specifically Scum? What convinces you I’m the best execution here? And what makes sense then as a holistic view of the game? Why have I defended (and at times really aggressively) every single Town member that’s been flipped?

[Datisi]

if you don't understand how a push against a town is a negative point that i consider as part of the totality of evaluating you, i don't know what to tell you. i don't know if your intentions were pure. just because i didn't think your points were "malicious" (your word that you've chosen for this convo repeatedly, scum don't need to be malicious btw) doesn't mean that they couldn't come from scum

there's 2 types of players on a town yeet - misguided town who didn't know what they were doing, and shitpushing scum who very well knew what they were doing. right, ok. when i ask "do you think my points were malicious" i'm asking whether you think i fall in the latter rather than the former category. if you're town, you obviously agreed midway was scum or else you wouldn't have voted him. and i ask you if you think i was malicious and you say "no", then i take that to mean i wasn't shitpushing midway, i.e. i was genuine in my view of him. so when you come *from that claim* and say "but btw it still sunk my view on you" do you see why i think you might be pulling shit out of you ass?

[Datisi]

like, i'm still town reading you (I've said this, right?) but you being defensive about me having concerns that you were a strong push on a green flip--which is an obvious "whoa that's a thing I should consider" moment--is really thin skinned. what are you worried about?

don't think you did, 2899 doesn't sound like a townread to me. and i'm gonna be defensive because you're apparently sinking me without proper reasoning. you thought midway was scum, you said my points weren't shitpushing. "hurr durr you were on town elim" is level zero. so what exactly are you ~considering~ then? also did you read the lotus case?

[Andresvmb]

gamemanship = trying to take control of the game

I’m going to say 2 things about this real quick.

(i) Why would I bother trying to take control of the game now when the game is so fractured? As Scum? What do I stand to gain? The Scum Team isn’t two of {RLotus, VPB, Datisi}, and me, you would agree right? So why do I have to take over from them if they’re doing such a bang up job of finding the Scum? Why get in heated debates with them about the next course of action instead of trying to say stay on their good side and either encourage some but not all of their pushes, and stay out of the fray? As far as I can tell RLotus has had me as Town for some time, and VPB and Datisi have expressed varying degrees of suspicion against me but nothing too strong (with VPB even proposing to give me their vote if I can agree with RLotus about a target). Why feed any of that? Why not simply calmly engage them as to why they’re wrong but not stand too much in their way? Does it really make sense to you that as Scum at this stage, after I’ve accrued immense Town cred from actually being right a lot (called Italiano Town EARLY in the game, never voted there, argued for Town, presented a balanced case, was looking for an alternative - go look it up; argued that Duchess after accruing a lot of early votes was more likely to be Town [and was correct, and then after pushing Cookie Monster realized AGAIN that the slot was Town, Unvoted]; also battled with my read on RTP a lot, concluded they were Town, did not participate in the shitpush; argued against the midway execution quite aggressively with VPB, to the point were my exasperation is OBVIOUS if you just read the damn game, and was AGAIN right), I would want to stick out like a sore thumb?

(ii) How do you explain the fact that none of my actual preferred pushes have succeeded throughout the game? If I had Scummates, and we were to some extent trying to coordinate what happens, why isn’t RLotus dead (D1)? Or you for that matter? Could it be that I’m not getting any support from anybody and convincing stubborn Town that they’re wrong is actually hard?

[Andresvmb]

What I would like you (and Mom for that matter) to actually do is look to answer these questions instead of just saying duh you seem aggressive what the hell, Scum. Like no. Why is that acceptable at this stage? Yeah I’m clearly trying to get my voice heard. But why is that Scummy? And why do I in particular have to do it at all? I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but I don’t have to do much not to get executed today given how the game has gone. I just don’t. That’s blatantly obvious to anyone that is even paying limited attention to the game. I don’t actually need to be aggressive. Because I’m not getting executed if I don’t stick out, and the momentum isn’t aggressively swinging against Dunn who you have as my potential buddy. Particularly not after my argument as to why midway didn’t make sense actually turned out to be correct.

[Green Crayons]

scum gamesmanship

Why are you attacking me without a vote? If you really think I’m trying to psych you out, I can honestly tell you that I’m not. Here the way I see it is you’ve been quietly in the background executing Town without explaining yourself really. I will grant you that if I’m Scum here, my Partner is probably Dunn (since I’ve basically attacked everyone else).

i'm not on Andres' voting schedule, that's why. i want to revisit BM's posts and look at Lotus's Datisi case before i vote. which I've already said.

you saying that you aren't trying to be manipulative doesn't meant that you aren't being manipulative

But why am I specifically Scum? What convinces you I’m the best execution here? And what makes sense then as a holistic view of the game?

I don't see how you can be asking this question with a straight face when you have just accused me of "attacking" you. Those "attacks" are literally just points I've made about what I think is suspicious of your play.

Why have I defended (and at times really aggressively) every single Town member that’s been flipped?

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

[Green Crayons]

if you don't understand how a push against a town is a negative point that i consider as part of the totality of evaluating you, i don't know what to tell you. i don't know if your intentions were pure. just because i didn't think your points were "malicious" (your word that you've chosen for this convo repeatedly, scum don't need to be malicious btw) doesn't mean that they couldn't come from scum

there's 2 types of players on a town yeet - misguided town who didn't know what they were doing, and shitpushing scum who very well knew what they were doing. right, ok. when i ask "do you think my points were malicious" i'm asking whether you think i fall in the latter rather than the former category. if you're town, you obviously agreed midway was scum or else you wouldn't have voted him. and i ask you if you think i was malicious and you say "no", then i take that to mean i wasn't shitpushing midway, i.e. i was genuine in my view of him. so when you come *from that claim* and say "but btw it still sunk my view on you" do you see why i think you might be pulling shit out of you ass?

this is such a simplified view of scum play that it's parody

[Andresvmb]

If maxwell and GC are partners I think maxwell's play doesn't make sense. For one, maxwell only said he can confirm GC as neighborizer and not his alignment, which in no way clears him, so even if GC was in danger (which I don't think he was in immediate danger) that play from Maxwell is not guaranteed to save him. Furthermore, if GC and maxwell are both indeed fake, then surely there is at least one more PR or even two. If that/those PRs claim, then things get messy for them.

This is kind of a wrong take I think. As scum, you never want to claim you can guarantee the alignment of a buddy. If you or that person ever flip, then it becomes a 2-for-1 situation.

I’m with you here, actually. If GC flips Scum, maxwell doesn’t have to defend their statement at all because at the very least GC is definitely a Neighborizer, and they won’t be pressured for their intervention.

[Andresvmb]

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

This is just lazy. Now everything is TMI? What an easy way of minimizing the large volume of posts I’ve made. Why don’t you actually go look and show that I’m clearly arguing from a point of view of being informed instead of reducing all of my contributions to knowing what’s correct so I can brag about it now?

[Green Crayons]

like, i'm still town reading you (I've said this, right?) but you being defensive about me having concerns that you were a strong push on a green flip--which is an obvious "whoa that's a thing I should consider" moment--is really thin skinned. what are you worried about?

don't think you did, 2899 doesn't sound like a townread to me. and i'm gonna be defensive because you're apparently sinking me without proper reasoning. you thought midway was scum, you said my points weren't shitpushing.

i guess i didn't explicitly say "i'm still reading you town." but my agreement in the neighborhood that i don't think your push on midway was "malicious" but me still voicing some concern with the ultimate push i think can be deduced that I'm still reading you as town but just not as strongly before

"hurr durr you were on town elim" is level zero.

Thank you for defending me against Andres' and Baltar's fake reasoning.

so what exactly are you ~considering~ then? also did you read the lotus case?

are you serious?

[Green Crayons]

This is something scum would do. It's TMI and you get town cred as scum. You calling it out as why I should read you as town is scummy too.

This is just lazy.

Now everything is TMI?

What an easy way of minimizing the large volume of posts I’ve made. Why don’t you actually go look and show that I’m clearly arguing from a point of view of being informed instead of reducing all of my contributions to knowing what’s correct so I can brag about it now?

No? i never said that. holy fuck, you are manipulative.

[Andresvmb]

And besides, it doesn’t explain the way I went about it either. You know what you could argue is TMI? The way Dunn plainly stated that RTP and Italiano were Town without arguing too much, and not really trying to stop those executions. I didn’t just state these points of view, I got into a lot of debates about them. For what? So that I could have a lot of TMI’ed Town still alive in late game? That makes no sense.

[Green Crayons]

gamemanship = trying to take control of the game

I’m going to say 2 things about this real quick.

(i) Why would I bother trying to take control of the game now when the game is so fractured? As Scum? What do I stand to gain? The Scum Team isn’t two of {RLotus, VPB, Datisi}, and me, you would agree right? So why do I have to take over from them if they’re doing such a bang up job of finding the Scum? Why get in heated debates with them about the next course of action instead of trying to say stay on their good side and either encourage some but not all of their pushes, and stay out of the fray? As far as I can tell RLotus has had me as Town for some time, and VPB and Datisi have expressed varying degrees of suspicion against me but nothing too strong (with VPB even proposing to give me their vote if I can agree with RLotus about a target). Why feed any of that? Why not simply calmly engage them as to why they’re wrong but not stand too much in their way? Does it really make sense to you that as Scum at this stage, after I’ve accrued immense Town cred from actually being right a lot (called Italiano Town EARLY in the game, never voted there, argued for Town, presented a balanced case, was looking for an alternative - go look it up; argued that Duchess after accruing a lot of early votes was more likely to be Town [and was correct, and then after pushing Cookie Monster realized AGAIN that the slot was Town, Unvoted]; also battled with my read on RTP a lot, concluded they were Town, did not participate in the shitpush; argued against the midway execution quite aggressively with VPB, to the point were my exasperation is OBVIOUS if you just read the damn game, and was AGAIN right), I would want to stick out like a sore thumb?

(ii) How do you explain the fact that none of my actual preferred pushes have succeeded throughout the game? If I had Scummates, and we were to some extent trying to coordinate what happens, why isn’t RLotus dead (D1)? Or you for that matter? Could it be that I’m not getting any support from anybody and convincing stubborn Town that they’re wrong is actually hard?

(i) you started taking control of the game halfwway through D2 when you decided to ratchet up your post count. you being manipulative by demanding that i vote you is just that same mindset but just on a smaller, 1:1 scale.

(ii) oh wow you haven't gotten a miselim through (presuming youre scum)? oh sad for you being able to say that you haven't had a preferred miselim.

[Green Crayons]

And besides, it doesn’t explain the way I went about it either. You know what you could argue is TMI? The way Dunn plainly stated that RTP and Italiano were Town without arguing too much, and not really trying to stop those executions. I didn’t just state these points of view, I got into a lot of debates about them. For what? So that I could have a lot of TMI’ed Town still alive in late game? That makes no sense.

are you stating this as a real suspicion on Dunn (a first, right?) or are you just showing how you can make up a TMI suspicion?

[Andresvmb]

(i) you started taking control of the game halfwway through D2 when you decided to ratchet up your post count. you being manipulative by demanding that i vote you is just that same mindset but just on a smaller, 1:1 scale.

Bullshit. Midway would be alive if this were true.

[Andresvmb]

And besides, it doesn’t explain the way I went about it either. You know what you could argue is TMI? The way Dunn plainly stated that RTP and Italiano were Town without arguing too much, and not really trying to stop those executions. I didn’t just state these points of view, I got into a lot of debates about them. For what? So that I could have a lot of TMI’ed Town still alive in late game? That makes no sense.

are you stating this as a real suspicion on Dunn (a first, right?) or are you just showing how you can make up a TMI suspicion?

I’m saying that I would understand if you were leveling this argument against Dunn. Leveling it against me doesn’t make sense unless you can also explain why I wanted those particular players still alive when I so obviously was openly hostile against the players pushing them.

[Green Crayons]

The Scum Team isn’t two of {RLotus, VPB, Datisi}, and me

i've stated that Lotus is obvtown imo

it hasn't escaped my attention that on thursday i voiced suspicions of VP and Andres in the neighborhood, and then on Friday Andres and Baltar vote me, and on Friday/Saturday Datisi is pushing this really dumb "how dare you have reservations about the fact that i helped push an miselim"

what a coincidence

no i dont think it's all 3 but its got my paranoia at level 11