Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia [Game Over]

[mastina]

So full confession, still not in the mood to play, but I needed to log in for something fairly important which means that I needed to do this after that.

Mastina, what makes Flea locktown?

It's a number of things, actually.
1: General resonance of vibes. Flea is going through a lot of the same things as I am and seeing a lot of the same things I am, but critically, are not exact duplicates, given Flea has multiple reads I do not agree on. However, the overall vibe being so similar in nature to me with what faer doing and going through makes me think town.

2: Flea's approach to the game is in fact similar to Flea's approach last Draft Mafia, where fae were town. While it's not impossible to duplicate as scum, it adds to the already-present evidence that Flea is town.

3: Gut.

4: Honestly, personal bias; I like Flea as an individual and when push comes to shove, whenever I find myself lacking in reads on D1, I will just townbin the people who are brilliant rays of sunshine who I love to play with and Flea fits that criteria.

(Want this as a pagetop especially as I am typing a post which contains the followthrough townread on Tally question.)

[mastina]

Post 744 is a huge waste of text where Mastina leads us down this rabbit hole of how open and honest she is about her time, she's not in the right headspace, etc etc. Much ado about nothing.

Mastinas play pretty much fits what i expect to see from scum!her, which is short bursts of spam texts with longer breaks in-between, with the grand bonus being this incessant tunneling.

This would be a fine narrative if not for one problem:
The narrative falls apart when you realize 744 was not my only post in that day. It's true enough that scumastina will very frequently make excuses for not making content especially when she is struggling in the game. So that aspect of the narrative is accurate! But the problem is, scumastina when using that excuse? Doesn't post content at all when making it. And when she does post not-prod-dodges, they are literally this lackluster. (I eventually managed to post content...by hard-bussing my teammates.)

Oh, but, "that's just one game!". I assure you, it is not just the one game. You can even see it in posts like this, which you may think, "wait, mastina, wasn't that a cross-post across all of your games at the time?", to which I would say yes, it was, but the cross-post in other games contained modifications specific to that game to contribute content. (I'd be augmenting my point if I could track down those towngames with that same cross-post to indicate the differences between the cross-post as town and the cross-post as scum but alas, hard to do that.)

Which continued. Repeatedly.

Oh but that's just two examples.

Care for a third? Which, again, wasn't just an isolated post from that game.
Especially evident in the last two posts of mine. I posted once on a Wednesday with a "no content today" and then again on a Friday with "no content today".

Care for a fourth? Where I actually spent a second post declaring the no-content. Admittedly, that game had a notable aversion of this trend, where I needed to post despite not wanting to as scum, but that's not only one of my best recent scumgames on record but also isolated,

Because here's a fifth. Where I prod-dodged. Repeatedly.

So why is this link spam important? This is me setting up for showing what the trend NorwegianboyEE attributes to my scum meta actually is. It is me showing examples of the thing that NorwegianboyEE was talking about, specifically so that you have the context behind how 744

doesn't

fit the narrative, which brings us to the crux of the issue.

If 744 were my only post of the day, NorwegianboyEE would've had a genuine, fair point.

The problem which makes Norwee's whole argument disingenuous as fuck? 744 was not my first post that day, and I made many other posts both before the aforementioned 744, and then continued AFTER 744 with more.

I did not do nothing on Tuesday with 744 being my sole contribution. I was posting content basically the entire time.

(As for short bursts of text with long pauses between? That's just a bullshit point in general because taking a look at literally any of my completed towngames will show that I've done precisely that in all of them because I am a much healthier mafiascum player nowadays and actually take breaks from the game for a day or two when I can get away with them. Even in a Blitz game where I should be posting every 24 hours, if the mod isn't attentive enough to notice I've been gone longer than that I can get away with a full 2-day break. )

I really don't think Mastina's been as townie as y'all are letting them out to be.

And anyone who doesn't see that this is my towngame is a fucking idiot because this is painfully transparently my towngame. Just as the difference between you as town and as scum is night/day the difference between me as town and as scum is night and day--

especially

during the times I am struggling to get into the game largely due to rl stuff.

The games where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff might be among my weakest, worst towngames, and my weakest worst towngames are comparable to my absolute best scumgames...but they are, critically,

not

comparable to the scumgames where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff. Because the scumgames where I struggle to get into the game due to rl stuff are not my best scumgames; they remain my worst.

Kinda wish jjh were in the game because he'd be able to explain that concept more eloquently than I could, really. (Basically: invested in the game town-mastina >>>> struggling town-mastina

>

invested in the game scumastina >>>>>>>> struggling scumastina. The fact I am struggling to be in the game is self-evident, but the fact that I am still putting in effort in

spite

of struggling is also self-evident, and a struggling scumastina

cannot

pull off a game like this. Nor is it ethical to lie about struggling as scum and even were it I never fucking lie so I wouldn't do that on personal morals.)

Ngl, I don’t really hate this list. Or at least the middle bit of it. I don’t agree with it, but I can see where the reads originate. That doesn’t really make me less concerned that you’re scum.

I mean, sure. scumastina has readslists which look good. That's usually for a good reason though; she often has strong locktown reads on town and busses her scumbuddies. (Who'da thought? You can't make a readslist which looks good to people without it containing large swathes of truthfulness to it. If the readslist is entirely fabricated, it ends up not looking good.) To the point where this is actually a notable trend that people have picked up on!

So you should fucking sheep me on it.

Admittedly, the only parts that are going to be reliable regardless of my alignment are the very top and very bottom since the middle usually contains a mixture of alignments, but I guarantee you that even were I scum, Taly and Flea would be town and I'd be fucking bussing the shit out of NorwegianboyEE here! So you should fucking sheep me there because this is

not

the sort of read that is ever wrong.

Then after Norwee flips scum you can make your own decision on what alignment you think I am.

I will point out that you not being in thread due to the RL absence doesn’t really fix the lack of town vibes while you’re here, but this could just be a case of you being too checked out to bleed town.

I

have

bled town. This is, transparently, my towngame. I've not been my

maximum townness

self, because again, I have a lot on my plate that makes things genuine a struggle, but

given what I'm capable of

, this is as town as I can get right now.

That having been said, can answer this;

Talk to me about Taly, because I feel like he has significant scum equity if you’re town.

Taly is town here because of similar reasons to Flea;
1: Read resonance here, in a way that is not a carbon copy of my reads but looks like was developed on his own, with him having come to a similar place to me but not identical with him having done this largely on his own.
2: Taly asked me to townread him when he said I had like a 1/6 readrate on him with me always reading him as wrong so I decided "eh what the hell, it's D1, might as well townread him for it".
3: But actually I legit genuinely

did

townread him for that play. I may have exaggerated the townread generated due to #2 but it existed albeit weaker even lacking point #2.
4: And then after I did townread him, Taly didn't just accept this; he showed actual

surprise

to the townread! He was baffled that I was townreading him, in a way that strongly indicates to me that he is town, because if he were scum I don't think he'd be baffled I'd be townreading him (since to him, reading me wrong is what he'd expect, so me reading him as town when he is scum wouldn't be baffling, but me reading him as town when he is town IS).
5: Also, gut.

Also, if you have a game or two that you think shows norwee scum I’d appreciate it, because I’m pretty sure he’s told me his scum game is easy to catch before and I don’t remember ever seeing it.

I think you're misinterpreting my point here.

I've never seen NorwegianboyEE as scum before this game.

I don't have any scum meta for Norwee.

But I do have town meta with Norwee, and can tell instantly that this? Isn't that. I've played with Norwee enough times to tell that this isn't Norwee as town, even remotely. It's "off" in a fundamental way that I can't see as being anything other than being due to him being scum because it's just...not him as town, in tone, in content, in posting, in everything.

[Flea The Magician]

Yeah Mastina is locktown here.

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna take a look a norwee's scum games. I was under the impression he just does nothing as scum.

If his scum game is at all comparable to his play here, I could be ok voting him. He still feels quite towny to me but mastina is very town and very confident, I have a lot of townreads I feel comfortable with, and this game is gonna go nowhere otherwise.

[mastina]

This seems absurd to me; the more and bigger the differences the easier they are to point at.

No?

When the differences are that big, it makes it

harder

to explain, not easier.

Besides, this is not something I would lie about.

I can say something is difficult to explain.
I can refuse to explain.
I can have situations where I have no explanation.
I can bullshit an explanation as scum.

But these are not used to cover for each other.
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I refuse to explain;
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I have no explanation for;
When something's hard to explain, it's not something I need to bullshit;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because it's difficult to explain;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because it's something I have no explanation for;
When I refuse to explain, it's not because I need to bullshit an explanation;
When I don't have an explanation, it's not something I refuse to explain;
When I don't have an explanation, it's not something that's hard to explain;
When I don't have an explanation, its not because I need to bullshit an explanation.

When I say I don't have an explanation, I mean exactly that; I don't have an explanation.
When I refuse to explain, it's just that; I have a reason not to explain and am fully capable of doing so, when I feel it is the right time to do so.
When I bullshit an explanation, obviously I didn't need to refuse or say I can't explain or say it's difficult to explain because clearly by virtue of me having bullshitted the explanation, it was none of those.

So...
...When I say something is hard to explain that means, regardless of my alignment, it is

hard to explain

.

I don't fucking lie. Never have, never will. I am perfectly capable of bullshitting explanations as scum; I don't need to pretend something is hard to explain in order to bullshit a read. So when I say I find it hard to explain, that means exactly that. Regardless of my alignment. It. isn't. easy. to. explain.

And I mean it here.

Describing the differences between Norwee as town and scum isn't easy. Them being polar opposites makes it

harder

to explain, not easier, because subtle nuanced differences are ridiculously easy to compare and contrast, but big vast gulfs of distinctions are harder to find the words to describe adequately.

Also, you still haven't explained your flea townread.

Nobody asked me until Taly did in 746. (Or if they did, I missed it, in which case I'm sorry, but at least I answered Taly when he asked me about it, in 974/975.)

[Infinity 324]

Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

Here he seems to be playing pretty similarly to me, although the spectator narrative isn't really the same because he's being pushed. Still, the part about not laying out his whole thought process is definitely there.

Is there something I'm missing here?

[T3]

UNVOTE: mastina

[T3]

I'll meta Norwee. I was his scumpartner in a newbie and andplayed with town him in another one.

[cyrus62]

VOTE: t3 vote hoping is scummy

[mastina]

I don’t understand how Mastina is acting so confident but can’t really explan anything of their read on me apart from how it’s just obvious.

Confidence of the read is directly correlated to the obviousness of it--if it

wasn't

so obvious, I wouldn't be so confident, now, would I?

There's a reason the moment you hopped into the game I immediately initiated a hard-1v1 with you. The confidence comes from just how obvious it is and I genuinely don't know why people who have played with Norwee when he's been town before

aren't

seeing it.

Mastina has almost exclusively focused on this one bad read and based their entire game around it. I don’t see how this comes from town, sorry.

I mean if you were my only read, that would be fair.

You are not my only read.

Flea the Magician
Taly

Almost50
Dwlee99
Dunnstral

cyrus62
Bingle
House

NDMath


Infinity 324


T3



Momrangal/NorwegianboyEE

Locktown, basically-locktown, pretty damn strongly townreading for various reasons but not locktown, lean-town overall (NDMath I don't know at all but just gut-vibe them as town), not-townreading, seeing-as-scum, lockscum of lockscum.

These are my reads right now for D1.

This was my last readslist.

I just explained the townreads I have on Taly and Flea, so I don't feel the need to reiterate my reasons there.

Beyond that:
I very strongly believe that this is Almost50's towngame. His moves make sense for his stated stance, his claimed pack and his actions for it all make sense for him as town, and his reads have been pretty damn town. The one and only possible concern I'd have with him is, in fact, that his reads are as good as they are, but the fact that he's overall had some strong stances and backed by reasonable logic means that I just think this is him as town.

Dwlee I have already explained, but this is not a read tied to Norwee; this is a read tied to the collective town as a whole, as a body. Everyone says Dwlee is obvtown here. Everyone says Dwlee is very strongly, obviously town. I don't see it, but I don't think that everyone saying Dwlee is town here is town. I think that among those calling Dwlee obvtown there must be scum, but that the scum believing Dwlee to be obvtown means that Dwlee isn't scum with them. Plus, what's more likely? Everyone is wrong on Dwlee, or everyone is right on Dwlee? Dwlee's a consensus townread and while I don't exactly agree with the consensus, Dwlee's content I can at least see as being town on its own merits, albeit not to the obvtown levels they say.

Dunnstral is mostly here due to the mason pack claim. And that's about it, honestly.

cyrus looks to be town, solving in his own way, but he's not as strongly town to me mostly because I'm somewhat weirded out that nobody is pushing him as the low-hanging fruit he normally is. cyrus has been a consistent mislim in my games with him, with most of the collective playerlist suspicious of him...and that suspicion is, by and large, absent from this game. There is a decent amount of fluff in his posts I'm not used to, too, but overall, the thoughts he has presented DO look genuine and the people townreading him I am contributing to them, like me, being experienced with cyrus and not auto-scumreading him. So I'm not concerned, meaning he's still one of my strongest townreads, but not in the same tier as the basically-locktown.

Bingle's content looks sincere and genuinely solving in a way that's difficult to explain so I'll just shorthand it as 'gut'. He's good reason to not be scum imo, it just doesn't 'fit' with him being scum here. The way he's going about things may be highly neutral but the neutrality is not total, and the ways he's not neutral are in ways that are more likely to be town.

House is doing House things. I realize he has a strong scumgame, but I believe his content here to be him as town because the pushes he makes are things that I can see the reasons/intent behind as town but are harder for me to see as scum. It's not absolute though because as House himself said, I can't exactly soulread him anymore and it's not something I'm really confident in, especially having not seen his scumgame in recent times. (It's possible, for instance, for him to, as scum, deliberately make his play as close to our last game together as possible. That's something he could do as scum, and I lack a gauge off of limited re-experience with House to tell if he actually would and how successful he'd be if so. So lacking the gauge of his scumgame, I have some healthy respect in not hard-townbinning him, but he does look town.)

NDMath does look vaguely town in content but nothing in the content looks like it couldn't be made by scum. The nature of the content and overall direction and push look to be town to me overall, but this is not something outside the range of scum. Which means overall, a weak townread.

Infinity I don't see as town here at all in any of her content. I don't exactly see her as scum, either, but it's definitely at least possible with her positioning for her to be scum.

T3's posts actually do look like they come from scum, and I don't see the town in them at all.

So.
Which of these reads have

anything

to do with you, Norwee?

...None of them? My explanation of these reads has absolutely no mentions of you?

That's because the narrative you're weaving is an outright fabrication.

[T3]

I've been a loud "cyrus obvtown" voice which is why cyrus hasn't been pushed.

[mastina]

All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

[mastina]

Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

I mean, yes--that's exactly the sort of description of his towngame that I would give.

But this?

This isn't that at all. He's

not

acting as a spectator giving thoughts as the game goes along, his 'solving process' is not being shown in the way it shines through as town (there's not nearly the same level of trajectory involved), he's saying basically everything upfront with almost nothing being behind the scenes. Beyond his paltry attempts at mimicking this very very poorly/badly in his entrance which immediately screamed "fake".

You literally described his towngame, but attribute it to this game when it is entirely absent.

[T3]

VOTE: t3 vote hoping is scummy

No. Vote hopping really isn't.

[Infinity 324]

All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

Is there another way of approaching this you think would be more productive?

[Taly]

I'll immerse myself into these juicy past 2 pages this Friday at latest. Doing 10 hr shifts...

[T3]

VOTE: Norwee
I get a very similar tone to the newbie when he was scum. He's a lot more authoritative and his posts almost come off as coming from a robot.

[Infinity 324]

Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

I mean, yes--that's exactly the sort of description of his towngame that I would give.

But this?

This isn't that at all. He's

not

acting as a spectator giving thoughts as the game goes along, his 'solving process' is not being shown in the way it shines through as town (there's not nearly the same level of trajectory involved), he's saying basically everything upfront with almost nothing being behind the scenes. Beyond his paltry attempts at mimicking this very very poorly/badly in his entrance which immediately screamed "fake".

You literally described his towngame, but attribute it to this game when it is entirely absent.

It's possible I'm viewing it through a very biased lens given that I thought him giving a townread on me right at the start of the game was towny because [redacted] and also because I expected him to do absolutely nothing as scum which I still need to check on.

I still feel like you're way exaggerating the differences between this game and a normal towngame of his but whatever

[cyrus62]

I'll immerse myself into these juicy past 2 pages this Friday at latest. Doing 10 hr shifts...

I have a good joke to share later. Trust me . I just have to wait till other games are though

[mastina]

All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

Is there another way of approaching this you think would be more productive?

Being a town mediator rather than a scum one.

Talking to each member of the wagons you dislike, talking to each of them about why you don't like the wagon they're on, asking for discussion, engaging them, talking to them about their points and positions and proposing to them something which works with their established positions/logic but is compatible with your own stances, and creating cases against the players you want to vote rather than a naked vanity vote on a slot most people are townreading that will do nothing to get anyone to swap wagons.

Hopping onto a player townread nakedly with nothing other than "the wagons we have suck" will do nothing to dismantle those wagons.

[mastina]

*hopping onto a player widely townread with a naked vote backed by nothing other than "the wagons we have suck"
(edit by way of post for clarity)

[Infinity 324]

Talking to each member of the wagons you dislike, talking to each of them about why you don't like the wagon they're on, asking for discussion, engaging them, talking to them about their points and positions and proposing to them something which works with their established positions/logic but is compatible with your own stances, and creating cases against the players you want to vote rather than a naked vanity vote on a slot most people are townreading that will do nothing to get anyone to swap wagons.

This isn't really a role I can take on in mafia games, because I don't articulate my logic very well and I approach games from a very different mafia theory angle than most. I am making an effort to engage you on the norwee wagon, but I feel like I've articulated my reasons to the best of my ability everywhere else, but people aren't really interested. So I'm sort of at a loss for how to go forward. Saying "nah I'm not really feeling it" over and over is not really going to help move things forward, but when people are content to park their vote on what I see as bad wagons and not really sort past that, it's hard to me to get my own reads.

[House]

VOTE: t3 vote hoping is scummy

I approve of the vote.

I disagree with the reason for it.

But by all means, keep your vote there.

[T3]

House please stop your confbias tunneling.

[House]

House please stop your confbias tunneling.

Fine.

UNVOTE:

I'm going to give this game a fresh look on my day off, but that will have to wait until some time Friday.