Mini Normal 2258 | Bunnies [Postgame]

[Aristeia]

are you thinking of asking me anything?

[Datisi]

i will most likely have questions for you later today when i actually go through day 1.

[Aristeia]

Well is there anything you've been thinking about you want to talk about?

[Datisi]

nothing that's related to this game, sorry. i spent the night thinking how i'm gonna be the vig shot, and i've been busy since the day started.

[Aristeia]

Hope you are less busy soon !

[Aristeia]

Mini 2252

Andres lives to endgame - casts game-losing vote in Elo.

Andres doesn't really ever catch up in this game but even at Mylo/Elo he has very strong opinions about who the mafia are - he makes correct reads on Fua/Retti being aligned mafia early in mylo but an incorrect read on scorpious being lhf town. Even though he makes incorrect decision in elo you can see he doesn't sheep the opinions of others and believes in himself.


Micro 1034

Conftown Neighbor - Shot Night One - Pushed his scum neighbor dead and had strong opinions about potential partner with scum neighbor.

Newbie 2083

Vanilla Townie - Shot Night One

Mini 2246

Town Follower - Shot Night One

Mini 2238

Vanilla Townie - Shot Night Five - Had Strong Opinion about Last Scum being Mathblade

Large 236

Vanilla Townie? - Survives to Endgame - Town Win, Andres doesn't do a lot at the end as it is a mechwin by cop clears.

Mini 2232

Vanilla Townie - Killed Night Three - iso feels a lot more opinionated/involved than play in this game.

Micro 1013

Town Neighbor - Survives to Endgame - Perfect Town Win - Perfect Reads - involved and pushes scum.

Micro 1005

Townie - Lives to Endgame - Casts Losing Vote in Elo - He is very engaged in this game and tries very hard to win - lots of thoughts are just open and out there.


I think there's a noticeable difference in overall lack of engagement and I'm not sure he ever really just gives up and says he will sheep conftown - it feels like something anti-spewy.

[Aristeia]

overall posting count is roughly the same between his completed games and this game - however there's less interaction in this one and more wallposts whereas I think he's more comfortable engaging in RT and giving off the cuff takes whereas here he feels a bit more restrained almost.

I guess you could give him a pass on the engagement because game has moved a lot faster than the other games he is in so that would explain his lack of confidence and engagement.

[Aristeia]

the more I reread Andres previous town!games the more I think he might have finally rolled mafia this game - he is lacking a lot of the conviction I've seen town!him have even when completely wrong in games; also it feels like he doesn't particularly want to be here?

[MathBlade]

i will most likely have questions for you later today when i actually go through day 1.

Darn I was hoping to read your D1 thoughts this morning before work.

[Datisi]

sorry math, will get to it within the day, i'm just not having a really good day ._.

[MathBlade]

sorry math, will get to it within the day, i'm just not having a really good day ._.

Then deploying hugs regardless of alignment, hope it gets better!

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: For Dats

I hope your day gets much better! sending you lots of love <3

[Andresvmb]

I think there's a noticeable difference in overall lack of engagement and I'm not sure he ever really just gives up and says he will sheep conftown - it feels like something anti-spewy.

Did you actually read the games or just skim through them? This is a serious question. First of all, I find it kind of shocking that you would argue I’m “giving up”. How have I “given up” exactly?

And have you actually never seen me sheep confirmed Town, or are you just saying that to make my play here seem anomalous? Because you are wrong. And are you sure you want to argue that I don’t listen to players I believe are solid Town? I also think dead and confirmed Town voices within a game need to be listened to and properly considered. I have made this point specifically as part of a strategic criticism of Scum having NK’ed me in that game I was wrong about Mathblade. Does that make me Scum?

You’re extrapolating some points that players do recognize about me to make a broader point that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. And it’s completely devoid of context. Let me be specific. You’re basically saying that I act more confident in Endgames typically, that I push my view above everything else, and what, never seek collaboration? Have you seen me interact with other Town players in game in the past? Or are you just assuming? Did you actually read my back and forth with Infinity in Micro 1005 and how that game actually ended (and how defeated I sounded at times), and did you properly capture how poorly my last game played out, and how it might have impacted my way of approaching this game? I can also point to specific instances where I was relatively confident of a read, but looked for strong engagement from other players to ensure I wasn’t going crazy. I clearly don’t just mindlessly push my point of view. Otherwise, even in that game I had perfect reads and only voted for Scum, I probably never move away from Iconeum.

The reality of how this game we’re actually playing is shaking out is that we have two voices that we all can tell will determine the outcome of today (and probably the game in IV + Mathblade), and a third one in House who insists so hard that they’re Town (for what I believe are good reasons) that no one is challenging that but Datisi really. It’s almost like you want me to raise my voice and argue forcefully for something from a position of incredible weakness for no good reason at all. When I fear my reads are going wrong or I’m backed into a corner with little influence, I can lash out yes, but at times I can also accept defeat. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to win. The funny thing is, you’re doing it too (by telling Mathblade that you’re fine with losing provider they try their best). It means I’m not letting the game affect me to the point I need to feel real anger. My argument with Pooky in my last game was personal, deeply infuriating, and it almost made me want to walk away from this forum. That’s all true, you can read it for yourself. I am looking to avoid that sort of thing happening again. I’m not going to start bashing House repeatedly over their garbage just to win one game anymore. House is entirely responsible for their read and that kind of shit doesn’t work.

[Andresvmb]

the more I reread Andres previous town!games the more I think he might have finally rolled mafia this game - he is lacking a lot of the conviction I've seen town!him have even when completely wrong in games; also it feels like he doesn't particularly want to be here?

Like this is so broad strokes and meaningless, I don’t know why you’re using it to form a read at all. Even when completely wrong I’m super confident? You really haven’t bothered to actually read my posts. I constantly caution about the quality of my early reads. I tend to repeatedly inject uncertainty in my answers because I don’t want people to think I have all the answers. Because I don’t. I have only once in all of the games I have played on this forum called for someone’s head in caps and with no room for ambiguity. In one of the games you quoted, I had a really long case about T3, detailing read progressions that didn’t make sense, and constantly questioning their standing. I’m sure Datisi remembers because they were Partners. Did you see where my vote ended that day? Not on T3. Why? Because I ended up questioning myself too much and I ended up being disarmed when they admitted my suspicion of their slot made sense. We lost that game in a landslide because I was NK’ed and the game had 4 Scum and was horrible unbalanced, but the point being that you arguing that I always argue with confidence is total hogwash.

[Andresvmb]

^horribly unbalanced*

[Andresvmb]

So this idea that sounding a certain way means I’m Scum is a total manipulation of my meta, and nonsense. It’s like you want to criticize me constantly for things you are doing this game too also, in ways that don’t make sense, and not really focused on some of the facts within the game. And I don’t have the time nor the inclination to engage in a long back and forth over stuff in a game I haven’t spent enough time reading. That’s just what it is. You can clearly see I refrain from pushing reads aggressively in other games when I’m behind. Why aren’t you bringing that up? Because it’s not convenient. You can ask Datisi - they know this is true.

[Andresvmb]

If you want to criticize my errors when reading Frogsterking, by all means and we can talk about that. I clearly should have considered their vote movement more carefully before leaving my vote there. And if you want to express suspicion of my activity level, by all means. This has been clearly attacked before and the conclusion really should be that it’s not AI, but I don’t think that’s crazy either. Which is why House’s argument that they don’t trust a player that hasn’t pushed a point of view until endgame to be reasonable. That makes sense to me. This meta push you’re making - I find it to be totally shocking.

[Andresvmb]

It’s simple - I want to win. But I also understand that I can’t do what Frogsterking did. I can’t sit here and pollute the thread and kick and scream to avoid my execution for a loss (which has never happened at this stage of the game before) if both of the voices I think are far more likely to be Town are pushing in that direction. It is not realistic. I’m in the POE. My voice and arguments are going to be considered, but not fully taken at face value. For good reason. And I don’t want to use emotional arguments to defend my standing in the game.

mmm. andres, have you ever really given up like this as town? i think i recall at least one towngame of yours where in late-game you were acting much more arrogant (for a lack of a better word) and saying how you were never executed on this forum and how you're not giving up and things like that. and, i recall a game where you commented how scum!you is easy to lose interest later on (or something along those lines, it was almost a year ago i haven't gone back to check exactly). am i wrong in any of these assessments?

And why are you falling for this nonsense? I’m not giving up - if Mathblade and IV both vote me, do you really think House and the rest of you aren’t going to follow? Why are you asking me to argue out of an impossible situation? If we lose because certain players have read me wrong, and I’m actually executed for the first time, what exactly should I be doing you think? The POE we have is tiny, and I’m in it. You both seem to be softing that I make sense as the execution, House has been wanting me dead for forever, and I don’t have a clue where IV’s head is at. If they start pushing me too, what do you honestly believe I should do here? Scream as to why my vote for Laplacian never comes from Scum me? I’m trying to buy some time so I can do what I do best - actually read Aristeia carefully.

And I am confident, most of the time. I can even come across as arrogant. That’s all true. But not when I’ve been consistently wrong and my reads have proven to be bad. Why are you not adding that caveat? You can clearly tell in games I have made a lot of mistakes, I stop pushing hard. And when the game begins to validate what I’m seeing, I gain in confidence and influence. It depends. There’s no absolute about any of it. No one plays the same all the time. And do you seriously think I’m losing interest here?

[MathBlade]

Scale of 1-10
Ari + Andres as the solve

[Datisi]

i'm a bit surprised you're asking me why i'm falling for the nonsense instead of why i'm talking nonsense, but anyway. if iv and math vote you, you're getting executed. either because you'll get quickhammered by actual scum, or because you won't get quickhammered which would mean you're scum. and in that case, i don't think there's anything you can do. however, the pre-emptive "if i'm voted, i'm voted" feels really unlike you, at least what i'm vaguely aware of you in endgames. and like, i'm not trying to rush anything, i would *prefer* time to try to sort this game out.

and, i didn't add that caveat in because i wasn't aware of it? like, i can't think of a single game we've played together where you were "consistently wrong", let me know if should know an example. again, the defeatist attitude struck me as losing interest, but i'll gladly be proven wrong.

[Datisi]

house, have you ever explained *why* you were townreading iv so strongly on day 1?

[Datisi]

nope, i don't think my "house fakeclaimed mason in order to push the wagon onto a50 makes sense, since he like, did not do that.

now, the obvious question is whether he's done that in order to wifom. i know house is gonna tell me the answer is no because he is so far out of his scumrange and he doesn't play scum like this and etc, but like. i'm wrong somewhere so it's tinfoil time.

house, why did you retract the mason claim at the start of day 2?

[Aristeia]

Did you actually read the games or just skim through them? This is a serious question. First of all, I find it kind of shocking that you would argue I’m “giving up”. How have I “given up” exactly?

I read your ISO in a few of the games (the ones where you make it to elo and cast the losing vote) and mostly skimmed the other games.

I said you felt like you had "given up" because

Anyway, I’ll vote whatever Math + IV conclude is the right call then. That includes voting for myself if that’s the decision that’s arrived at. I haven’t read what I wanted to yet - but I did feel like I needed to respond to this nonsense.

This feels like you were more or less ok with voting whatever math/iv want rather than going for what you believe the solution is.

[Datisi]

andres, you said at some point how scum!you wouldn't have played day 1 the way you played this game with lapla as your partner. what were you thinking about at the time. that is, how would you have played if you saw rtp doing what they were doing?

[Aristeia]

Like this is so broad strokes and meaningless, I don’t know why you’re using it to form a read at all. Even when completely wrong I’m super confident? You really haven’t bothered to actually read my posts. I constantly caution about the quality of my early reads. I tend to repeatedly inject uncertainty in my answers because I don’t want people to think I have all the answers. Because I don’t. I have only once in all of the games I have played on this forum called for someone’s head in caps and with no room for ambiguity.

I am talking about your play in elo, for example:

@Enchant I would be more comfortable executing Natalya. I think Natalya is certain Scum.

Natalya should be the vote today. I am convinced that’s the best course of action.