Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Dwelee

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Roadkill

Dwelee/Roadkill team.

Gg

[Sleepless Assassin]

UNVOTE:
I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.

I like Umlaut for town right now so I'll join this
VOTE: mc Esther

Bus your buddy and vote Roadkill with me.

[Sleepless Assassin]

It would have strengthened my read if Roadkill was a new player. He clearly isn't so that weakens it. I still don't have a stronger scum read than Roadkill/Dwelee.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Roadkill was for the Andante vote, yes. Town are usually too paranoid to do that because it opens up dumb hammer possibilities where scum feels more confident it won't happen and if it does, they expect the hammer to look worse than their vote anyway.

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

VOTE: mc esther

Umlaut is very likely town

Why and why?

Unvote, Vote Dwelee

[Sleepless Assassin]

If that's true, you're a lot more concerned with the post limit than I am. Which isn't impossible. But it seems weird right out of the gate like that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Roadkill, sometimes new players roll scum and just start voting ant town that gets run up without thinking of the consequence. The fact that you're not a brand new player means you weren't doing that. It's still an opportunistic looking vote, but you having experience means you likely are aware how it looks and might be more likely to avoid it ad scum than a new player would be. My reply to joqiza stands, but it isn't nearly as strong as the opportunistic newbie tell would have been.

how are you connecting the points between dwlee's entrance/awkwardness and the andante vote?

It's Page 2 of Day 1. I'm not looking for connections.

[Sleepless Assassin]

and i think you meant to quote me here

Oh, yep. My mistake.

here, you said that the unvote from the andante wagon confirms... that dwlee didn't want to post/that they were awkward?

Oh, Dwelees Andante vote, not yours. Yes. You're reading it right. I gotta quit playing this game while my kids talk to me lol.

But yes, it felt awkward for him to leave one wagon and push another toward wagon status.

also, i'm unsure if sleepless's vote will count, but i think dwlee is on e-1.

Why wouldn't my vote count?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Umlaut, how is explaining my reads on Dwelee and Roadkill fluffy? Also your reads are about opposite mine so... yeah. This game could be awkward.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante is sorta townie.

Yeah I'm curious where that read comes from.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Post count resets in an hour anyway

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante so is your case on joqiza that he's trying to get people to use up posts? If so, can you tell me how that benefits scum? Joqiza is probably my strongest town read which probably makes you think I'm scum with him but oh well lol.

63 is "Umlaut, how is explaining my reads on Dwelee and Roadkill fluffy? Also your reads are about opposite mine so... yeah. This game could be awkward."
like, you're acknowledging opposite reads? you don't want to try and explain why a sr of umlaut is town? or why an umlaut tr is maf? instead of just calling it awkward, you could work with umlaut?

I kind of think he's town for now. But yeah that post kind of started the dialogue. He hasn't replied yet. I don't know how you fault me for it not going anywhere yet.

~ This post is on Dwlee (see, super clear! post before this was Sleepless) ~
lol Dwlee trying to pocket me I see... also if you know pony? idk you XD (maybe I do... idk lol)

I assume you mean Pony on Mafia Universe?

I like 21!! it's like, kinda sticking up for me when I wasn't here "yeah it's not AI" like, thank you!! lol me getting hammered there was a genuine concern, cause I feel like I'm definitely the kind of person to get lolhammered

Is there a reason defending you is town rather than a white knight?

Preview edit: I'm gonna get in before the reset so I haven't read that yet

[Sleepless Assassin]

@SA what did I do to be your strongest TR

Your first few posts felt like you were trying to understand where people were coming from and then taking it a step further and working with them to make sure if they were town making genuine statements they were on a correct thought process. Examples:
1. Calling out Andante saying she's seen random hammers from town. It's an easy statement to make, but if she doesn't have examples of it, it might make her question whether it's something that could happen here
2.Questioning Dwelees stance on Andante. I like how you went in depth about there being multiple layers with not only whether she's correct but whether she actually believes she's correct because her perception is more important when it comes to getting a read on her in this case.
3. Asking me to explain my first two votes. I have been starting games this way intentionally lately to see who asks for more and get some conversation started. I liked that you asked.
4. The "bad" discussion. You're absolutely right that it can mean more than one thing, so getting people to commit to what they meant, while it may seem nitpicky, is helpful.

I actually like your line of questioning on Mcesther just now too. That vote stood out to me but I wasn't sure how to approach it. It felt like it was placed in a way that could sneak in unnoticed but I really haven't scumread the slot so far so maybe there's an explanation. Either way, I'm glad you asked and I'm looking forward to the answer. The Three vote interests me too. I'm curious what comes of that.

33 is explaining a read? You're reading Dwlee as scum for... being more concerned about the post limit than you? That's novel

No. There's context around that. The post being called fluff was basically me expanding on the discussion to say I didn't buy his explanation. Being so concerned over post count already seems off.

46 is pointless/fluffy because (1) explaining to Roadkill that he's scum is a fundamentally pointless exercise, and (2) it doesn't go anywhere, just sort of peters out with "I could see it as maybe opportunistic/scummy but also maybe not

It would be pointless if I knew he was scum, sure. But it's early and I'm not entirely confident and as I acknowledged a few times, my confidence even weakened after that point. So yes, I answered his question. A discussion can help me get a stronger read on him and it also helps him and others to read me if they know where my head is at. I was surprised you saw it as fluff because I was answering a question about a read. That's kind of how you play mafia lol. While I do make posts that aren't entirely game related and can be seen as fluff posts occasionally from time to time especially in slower games, I really don't think I have been doing that here.

[Sleepless Assassin]

V/LA until Saturday evening

as I start my 40 hour shift with an 8 hour break halfway through. I'll be going right to sleep after which is reflected in the V/LA.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm pretty suspicious of this read on Dwlee because I don't think Dwlee has been particularly towny. I think he has been more null and I'm not sure I believe how Andante is taking his posts here and reaching the conclusion that he's one of the towniest, unless she's just particularly partial to his defense of her. I think this could be a pocket attempt.

I really thought you were about to say Andante/Dwelee could be a possible team. What made you think pocketing if you don't think Dwelee is likely enough to be town to have earned a spot in the middle of a reads list? What reason would Andante as scum have to pocket a town Dwelee?

Andante has zero reason to tryhard like that given gamestate if scum. Don't understand the vote there at all

Do you have experience with Andante as scum? If so, is there something you've seen in her scum play to make you think she doesn't try as scum?

One thing that was felt weird to me at the time was the fact that after our discussion about town not really lolhammering, he went ahead and scumread Roadkill for the E-1 thing without really seeming to directly reference the conversation we just had.

Your conversation didn't really do anything for me from a theory perspective. I've played enough mafia. The risk of a random hammer is usually overstated, but still very real. The important thing is town is usually more legitimately concerned about it happening where scum just wants to come off that way. If someone had sounded really fake around the wagon, it would have raised red flags. Maybe its worth going back to look, but I didn't have that impression. For what it's worth, Roadkill hasn't looked scummy since that vote so I'm not currently scumreading the slot.

From looker, stuff like "Sorry, still reading but I couldn't resist" there's only 100 posts to read. Looker's initial reaction to repping in was "ah crap. scum. ok I'll do something later" like, that's exactly how I interpretted "O hi, hello. I guess I'm here now lol.

Give me some hours; I'll be back later on."

So I'm definitely sold on Looker maf.

Everyone else seems to think Looker prefers playing as scum so why would Looker have this reaction to a scum PM?

[Sleepless Assassin]

My intuition is that Dwlee doesn't make 74 in a world where he and Andante are partnered. At that point in the game, Dwlee has the spotlight on him, and I'm crowing about Andante a decent amount. I just think it feels too bold for Dwlee to defend his one-post partner so randomly and so blatantly, in that situation

I don't agree. Andante was getting wagoned and scum get self conscious about ignoring wagons on their buddy. He had to take a stance but he's not gonna bus in the first few pages of the game. And a strong town read raises red flags. So his options are wave it off as nothing because it's so early or give a weak town read. "Sorta townie" sounds like a weak town read. I don't at all see this move as bold if they are scum together. I will say I'm not scumreading Andante independently though. I'm not really sure how to read her. She plays this game so differently than I do. I've seen her town game but not her scum game and I just have no clue what she'd do differently. The ISO thing you were pushing stood out to me too because it looks like busywork, but I'm not sure Andante would have any need to produce busywork as scum. I feel like she would be able to give plenty of content without it. And lacking context feels like a disadvantage for town so first instinct is she might be scum because she's not worried about that, but it was like five pages and she could easily catch up reading through as either alignment.

The second part of your question I'm not sure how to answer, I would say that town!Dwlee seems like a valuable game piece to scum!Andante since in this world he's basically just a potato who sits there and townreads her.

Ok, that's fair. I can still see it either way but I get your logic there. I usually think of pocketing as being something scum would do to a powerful voice and Dwelee so far doesn't fit that role, but I can see the value in having any player never vote you in such a small game, especially if she can keep him alive long term.

[Sleepless Assassin]

More votes/opinions on Three plz

VOTE: mc esther
I'll go here then if no one wants to vote looker

Weird thing to say right after I say I'm willing to compromise on Looker.

My opinion is decent compromise. I like that Three is voting Dwelee with me. I didn't like a few things that were unexplained early on, but when I asked, Three's explanation was fine. I dunno. I just don't see a lot. If I have to compromise, I'd probably rather do Mc Esther. But I'd vote Three over a bunch of people not being voted.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I won't vote Looker. I want Dwelee and can compromise on Mc Esther. I'm not against voting Three but would rather Dwelee or Mc Esther.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm... very frayed right now. (Nothing related to this game). My main thought right now is that mc esther's posting on the past couple pages feels ridiculously towny. I don't know what I'm seeing differently from other people, but her consideration of Three feels like bleeding my obvious town regardless of what Three is. I'm shielding this slot and prepared to pay the price if I'm wrong.

My townreads are Umlaut, Roadkill, and MC E. Need to head back to work but will try to phonepost while my boss isn't looking.

Want to vote Dwelee? I'll give you cookies or something.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I actually agree with you that the top wagons are people who don't make sense as scum with Dwelee. I can't see Dwelee/Three at all. I don't believe in Dwelee/mc esther all that much. I kind of lean towards if Dwelee is scum, it's with Andante or Roadkill who I don't have as being scum individually. But this feels like a Day 2 discussion to me.

[Sleepless Assassin]

myself, andante, umlaut, and looker have all said that dwlee isnt happening. im guessing dwlee wont self-vote. this wagon isnt happening.

looker seems to reject every viable wagon though, which, um. i dont think i have such a strong preference on three over looker any more.

myself, three, and looker all still appear to be viable.

You and Dwelee are the lead wagons. Are you town reading Dwelee so strongly that you'd prefer to either die or have no elimination go through?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism

Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism

Mainly their awkwardness in their first few posts when their role PM would have been freshest in their mind. It sounds like they have a history if struggling as scum, and they haven't produced a whole lot here. And they just feels so similar to the last game I played with them where they were scum. And just a complete lack of anything town.

Preview edit: Yeah I'd encourage you to read the very beginning. That's where my scum read came from.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Dwlee uses they/them

Sorry, feel free to edit my post. Is it possible to have this post not count against my limit?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Mc Esther

Too much Dwelee resistance to make it happen. We have 47 minutes.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh shit. I thought it was today. Well... I still think Dwelee isn't happening. This at least gives mc esther time to claim if anyone was thinking of hammering.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote

[Sleepless Assassin]

Mc esther, I was trying to get you to vote dwelee. When you didn't answer and I thought deadline was less than an hour away, I gave up. When you included yourself as viable and seemed more willing to die than vote Dwelee, the last thing I would have thought was power role. And I'm still skeptical but common sense says you live today barring a counter claim.

Sleepless tried to rush the deadline and put esther at e-1 without saying

You think I lied about thinking deadline was tonight? That's pretty provable. Lying about that doesn't help scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Dwelee

I don't think this goes through but I'm willing to try.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Honestly, to do anything other than Three and maybe Looker, someone's gonna have to bend a little.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm here to hammer pending claim before deadline. Still prefer Dwelee though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Vote Dwelee

I don't really think anything has changed

[Sleepless Assassin]

See Sleepless never really did too much, other than just go "I'm here at eod to hammer whatever" tried to stay out of the spotlight

Does "tried to stay out of the spotlight" just mean "compromised" here? I wasn't gonna hard push Three when I preferred Dwelee.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I thought my whole ISO was "Dwelee is scum" but ok lol

By the time I made that last post it was obvious no one was following me.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Keeping mine also. Not sure how I feel about Andante jumping on behind me after opening the day voting me but meh its probably not as notable as it feels.

[Sleepless Assassin]

This is incredibly disingenuous when my activity across the entire site was zero
VOTE: Looker
Think town!you would bother to check that

Why wouldn't scum worry about being called out for being wrong?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I strongly disagree. Scum play carefully more often than not.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I think I was holding onto a little bit of hope that someone would compromise to make Dwelee happen.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Weren't you worried about a deadline crunch leaving us having to hammer someone without a claim (which in fact is what happened)?

Weren't you worried about a deadline crunch leaving us having to hammer someone without a claim (which in fact is what happened)?

Isn't that kind of one of the reasons to hurry?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah, what I meant is, you (Sleepless) didn't seem concerned that by waiting until the last second on Three/Roadkill we would be forced to hammer without a claim, in the way that you said you were concerned about that

vis a vis

MC Esther.

Yeah, what I meant is, you (Sleepless) didn't seem concerned that by waiting until the last second on Three/Roadkill we would be forced to hammer without a claim, in the way that you said you were concerned about that

vis a vis

MC Esther.

I mean cop was already out but I see your point.

Sorry my heads not really in this. Got bad news recently.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Joqiza why do you have Dwelee/Andante as yellow?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm way too tired to read and think today but I'm somehow feeling both bored and overwhelmed at the same time. It just feels like nothing happened to change my mind since Day 1 on anything and it's hard to see anything that will without a flip. Umlaut and joqiza and probably Roadkill too I'm confident are town. Dwelee I'm confident is scum. Looker I haven't seen a convincing case on. Andante I think I need flips to sort. So it really just feels like a waiting game.

I'm trying to read through the kids crying but I'm just not processing words. Aren't snow days fun?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't really know how to read Andante. The only thing that stands out to me is there's nobody except Looker who I really can't see her as scum with.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Any last thoughts from... anyone, I guess? I'll probably hammer a little closer to deadline than I said before.

Not really. I've given my reads. You all know I would rather it be Dwelee than myself.

I mean if Dwelee has a claim to make before hammer there's that but I think he would have already.

No one's asked me to claim so I don't feel I need to.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Fingers crossed

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hey everyone. I usually don't read things at night but I was excited at Dwelees flip so I went over his ISO. Let me go back to it and show you my thoughts.

I don't like to bus in micros though

That it's page 2 (now 3) of a game? What kind of a question is this

Games have deadlines and one was in ELO

The first quote was Dwelees response when I asked them to bus Roadkill. It sounds too straightforward to be a real buddy. Second quote was a response to Roadkill and feels too snippy to be an interaction between two scum, especially so early in a game with only two scum. Third, same idea as second even though it came on Day 2.

I like Umlaut for town right now

My takes are umlaut town, mc esther scum

I think Umlaut is town.

These are Dwelees mentions of Umlaut. No explanation whatsoever. Just a lazy "he's town". I could be wrong but my read on Dwelees personality is that they'd feel a need to overjustify a town read on a buddy or at least have some awkwardness around it. So this sounds like a lazy town read assigned to a town player who others think is town anyway.

I think Joqiza is town for 124. It sits in my brain very well and it's just... well-reasoned

This is Dwelees town read on joquiza. It's got a few more words but still very concise.

Andante is sorta townie.

Andante has zero reason to tryhard like that given gamestate if scum. Don't understand the vote there at all

I thought I still had more votes than I did when she started, this is less strong. I was thinking I still had 3 or 4 votes when she started, but I think we had tied wagons and there actually is incentives there. I still want to townread the effort but as I said less strong

I am pretty sure Andante is town here. I know there are doubters and maybe I'm just pocketed for her defense of my slot but I have no intention of voting her today.

Now this is how Dwelee addresses a town read on Andante. I understand Andante was wagoned early, but once she did her ISOs the suspicion faded. So this has that overjustified defense feel that I was looking for with a hint of awkwardness. The difference between the town reads on Umlaut/Joqiza and Andante are night and day. There's one obvious reason why that might be. Andante is his scum buddy.

So my next step was to go to Andantes ISO and see what she said about Dwelee. And I remember her doing ISOs on everyone right st the beginning. So I look at the one on Dwelee and you know what? Something does stand out:

51 -LOL yeah! roadkill brings up a great point!! Why no wild spam this game?? suspicious.

uh yeah, so Dwlee is probably town, town lean, like, they're solving, but not solving for the purpose of being TRed (I think that makes sense) like, maf cares about appearance or coasts, there's no in between ever, So far my reads are looking like:
Town to Scum:
Three/Umlaut - tied for towniest
Dwlee
mc esther
Sleepless
Joqiza

So Andante agreed with a point made against Dwelee. And yeah I get that most of her post was about Dwelee looking town, but that one point feels so out of place and I don't think Andante ever revisited it and she placed Dwelee pretty high on her town reads for someone who found something suspicious in Dwelees ISO.

Combine that with Andantes terrible trajectory on Dwelee (Town -> Vote -> Umvote quickly -> Dwelee null read at time of vote) and Andantes crusade against a me/looker team on Day 2 and I think I'm confident enough to

Vote Andante

[Sleepless Assassin]

hahaha Dwlee... I guess that succesful pocket attempt worked, cause not only did I TR you, apparently that makes me your partner lol thanks for taking me down with you!!!

@Town members it is literally not me. I know signs point to me, but I'm just a clueless townie. WHY WOULD I KILL LOOKER THERE??? Why not kill joqiza? who was way townier than looker, or so I thought... now I'm just gonna TR anyone who doesn't vote me, which makes me... in trouble lol

5/10

hahaha Dwlee... I guess that succesful pocket attempt worked, cause not only did I TR you, apparently that makes me your partner lol thanks for taking me down with you!!!

@Town members it is literally not me. I know signs point to me, but I'm just a clueless townie. WHY WOULD I KILL LOOKER THERE??? Why not kill joqiza? who was way townier than looker, or so I thought... now I'm just gonna TR anyone who doesn't vote me, which makes me... in trouble lol

5/10

Dwelees flip eliminated the possibility of your me/looker team and joqizas hammer could have looked bad. It is a good point about the looker kill though. I was surprised to see it but haven't really thought yet about who does it and why. I think I was too confident after seeing Dwelees ISO to really think about new info from the flip. I dunno. It does make some level of sense you'd do it as kind of giving up on that push. Like it didn't work Day 2 and now the associative possibility is gone so it feels too hard. Thinking back though, that's not at all the kill I'd have expected so maybe it's worth thinking over why.

I mean, all joqiza did on the dwlee case was hammer. and maf would hammer for towncred tbh

UNVOTE:

Is the answer just joq? but why would his maf strat be to tunnel me then back off, then tunnel again?

But couldn't he easily get away with hammering me on being just one day away from a win?

[Sleepless Assassin]

I dunno. I just don't see how the hammer would be enough town cred to be worth his partner's life. It would be one thing if he was leading the charge or something but I don't see it being worthwhile.

I think he had enough new info between posts 76 and 463.

And I don't see how stating two town reads sets them up for the next day.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't think advertising which player I find towniest right now is a great idea.

My thoughts landed me here too. The only person who really needs to know right this minute is the person stressing over who to NK. Unless a counter wagon pops up, I really don't think discussing other reads helps right now.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante so you believe I lied about reading at night and coming back to old thoughts to post? What's the benefit in that?

You also believe I spent two game days tunneled on my buddy in a micro? And that we made zero push on town Day 2 and instead decided to cross bus?

As for not wanting to share reads, yes I came to the same conclusion as Umlaut but I came to that conclusion on my own. It feels obvious because no one stands out as an obvious next NK. If we are eliminating you anyway, it doesn't help town to discuss further unless someone has something groundbreaking in which case we probably have a discussion over eliminating elsewhere which would nullify the idea of not talking town reads. I don't have an idea what I'd want to do if you flip town. I just don't want to tell scum what that is because if my second guess is also wrong and scum NK that person, I get a third chance to find scum. I'd hope I don't need that many chances but you never know.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't have an idea what I'd want to do if you flip town.

of course. cause you're definitely "not scum" and town you wouldn't want to work with me to find someone... nooo. instead I flip town, you go into tomorrow just like "well idk" and yall have even less activity than there is right now. and town will lose. it's kinda that easy. if you want even less activity, go for it. The Looker kill was cause looker was very good, in that they talked a lot, made cases. maf knows I'm yeeted here...


have fun tomorrow lol. I'd self hammer, but figured I might as well let yall get all the info you can from my town flip lol but as long as no one else is even trying, I see no point in me really doing much lol

I don't have an idea what I'd want to do if you flip town.

of course. cause you're definitely "not scum" and town you wouldn't want to work with me to find someone... nooo. instead I flip town, you go into tomorrow just like "well idk" and yall have even less activity than there is right now. and town will lose. it's kinda that easy. if you want even less activity, go for it. The Looker kill was cause looker was very good, in that they talked a lot, made cases. maf knows I'm yeeted here...


have fun tomorrow lol. I'd self hammer, but figured I might as well let yall get all the info you can from my town flip lol but as long as no one else is even trying, I see no point in me really doing much lol

My phone auto corrected. I typed "I do have an idea " , not "I don't have an idea". Context from the rest of the post should make that obvious.

[Sleepless Assassin]

lol well, the correct answer was "if you're town don't self hammer" glad yall want my help around here, like you 2 voting me, you seem to know game continues after my lim.. like, heloooo I'm here... and town!!!

lol well, the correct answer was "if you're town don't self hammer" glad yall want my help around here, like you 2 voting me, you seem to know game continues after my lim.. like, heloooo I'm here... and town!!!

You're asking about what we think if the game does continue so that's kind of the context I'm answering in lol.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Can we just euthanize this poor wolf already. Look at her, she's suffering.

LMAOOOO Umlaut is probably town, no way maf says this to me here. Maf would be more like Sleepless, and just coasting cause maf knows I for sure die here. I’m also quite sure Roadkill town, so it’s literally between Sleepless and joqiza, and I think I SR sleepless over joqiza

Coasting ? I tried interacting with you on why this read makes no sense if you are town but you only responded to the auto correct in that post.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hmm. That's who I was probably going to vote.

I'll be honest, I thought Roadkill was going to die.

I'm heading to bed but I'll have to look over both of your gameplay.

I know I was townreading Roadkill because if he's scum he hardbussed in a way I'm not sure I'd expect.

Joqiza I really would have expected to hammer me over Dwelee as scum.

So this isn't gonna be easy. But other than the Super Bowl tomorrow, I have most of the next 10 days free so I'll do everything I need to do to figure this out.

If either of you is considering that it could be me, my best defense is that I latched on to Dwelee right from the beginning and was their counterwagon the day they were eliminated. I know that if joqiza is town, that probably doesn't say a ton to you because Roadkill wad latched on to Dwelee as well so from your point of view Dwelee was definitely bussed.

I'll have to think about who is more likely to kill Umlaut too. Just from pure memory I think Joqiza could have thought Umlaut was coming after him but I'll have to go see if that's true or not. And Roadkill as scum probably sees Umlaut as the towniest player so it's possible it makes sense from both.

This is gonna be a hard one.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sleepless, how come you call Dwlee 'Dwelee' ?

(I don't think this actually tells me anything, I'm just curious. You even use Dwelee when you're quoting them. Does their name actually display that way to you, or are you adding the extra 'e' yourself in your posts?)

I actually didn't realize until now that I had it wrong.

But anyway the major thing I get from reading your posts is something that lingered in my mind already. Roadkill still being alive seems to be weird to you as well, not just to me. The simple answer is Roadkill is just playing a great scum game and obviously can't be the NK. But there's also the chance he was left alive just to create this argument. I dunno, he was my sure town read going into night and while I do read you (joqiza) as someone who thinks things through, I still think you're more likely to stick to a predictable script if that makes sense. And if Roadkill is town, not being killed was clearly a big WIFOM plan that I wouldn't expect. Do you think you could link me to a scum PT from a game where you played well as scum? I want something that shows how you really think when the time comes to make a big late game NK.

[Sleepless Assassin]

UNVOTE:
I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.

I like Umlaut for town right now so I'll join this
VOTE: mc Esther

Bus your buddy and vote Roadkill with me.

I don't like to bus in micros though
[

If I'd called the scum team here wouldn't they have come after me harder than they did, especially when I was wagoned? Or maybe even used a NK on me? That's one of the things bugging me about the possibility of Roadkill being scum. I know I've been damn good at early game reads lately, but this good and with no real pushback from scum? I don't know...

[Sleepless Assassin]

On second glance though, Roadkill didn't immediately acknowledge it and it does look awkward in hindsight when he finally talks about it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

the early accusations did not mean a lot to me because they were early and i know reads can change and when you are with low information a net can be thrown and not always hit the right things, and also i did something attention grabbing that was... decisive. so it did not mean a lot to me and there was never a... moment where something clicked as in “i need to follow this trail” like i did when dwlee wanted to kill three (because even then i think i would have probably just sighed at that one post they made and not really went after it until we said the same thing and i went oh no) so it was just... a thing, your early accusation, that’s a shrug on the mind

For what it's worth this does make sense. I feel like even though it may be an overreaction, scum would panic just a bit at the team being named so early and that's one of the things that makes me hesitant to believe you could be scum. There was no panic. No push to eliminate me from the game or to sway me. It's possible from my point of view however that it's something that drove you to bus Dwlee. I could see trying to eliminate associatives for endgame. Again, this requires your game to have been near flawless though. And usually if that's the case, the odds of anyone being hot on your trail about it are low. So I feel stuck. Like I've said before, my main hesitation on Joqiza is that he had a chance to hammer me over Dwlee. He chose to hammer Dwlee. I believe it was Andante who said he'd do that for town cred. And the irony isn't lost on me that I'm townreading him for it, but typically speaking I think the town cred from Dwlees flip is more likely to go to people who were pushing that way all along. Joqiza waited, considered all options, and decided last. It looks more legitimately town to me than like scum trying to look town. That's what makes this hard is I'm trying to find out who I'm wrong on . You both look town but obviously aren't. So it's like I need to try to argue against my own reasoning. That's why I'm picking apart your reaction to my whole "Dwlee/Roadkill scum gg" thing early on. I did town read it at the time. But the reason I think I'm leaning you as scum is because it's easier for me to believe that you brushed it aside to not appear to panic than it is that Joqiza chose to hammer his buddy over town. I'm far from decided though and absolutely see the side that town-you just didn't take me seriously being so early in the game.

that sleepless feels... a little... predetermined in how he’s talking as if to frame me a bit as the great scum potentially and then a little more kindness to joqiza (but also joqiza was here /to/ speak first and we are usually nicer to the people around us presently)

I try to be nice to everyone. I'm mainly just trying to lay put my thoughts and see if they make sense. As much as I want to work with whichever of you is town and come to the right conclusion, it's in my mind that whoever is scum has played a great game so I fully expect they'd be in my ear with "yes you make perfect sense, keep it up" hoping I feel confident and lay my vote. So part of me also feels alone and unable to trust anyone if that makes sense. So if I'm coming off cold, I apologize. It's the nature of the game.

also i cannot offer any examples of my play and i am sorry for that but i think here if i were mafia i would kill joqiza as the loudest, most consistent voice in the room and also...

I'm almost positive I'd have killed you because I wouldn't see anyone eliminating you and I think Umlaut vs Joqiza would be an easy 1v1 to set up.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh I remember what I was looking at when I fell asleep last night. When I started pushing Dwlee, Joqiza started talking about "bad" and "Alice and Bob" comparisons. The one thing that stood out as a point possibly against Joqiza was the weird comment about Andante and Dwlee not seeming like scum together. It was like he was either setting up the post-Dwlee flip game already or maybe more likely trying to win over people who suspected Andante and convince them Dwlee is town for not being paired with Andante. This is the post I mean:

The real and sad tea is that Dwlee probably doesn't make that post if he's partnered with Andante. Which is devastating because I thought everyone else who talked besides those two has been at least a little bit towny and I was starting to get hopeful.

The fact that Joqiza ends up voting both Andante and Dwlee kind of fits with that being his intention. However, like everything else in this game, there's a town mold that it fits too which is not playing for associatives before a scum flip, simply noting them for later. The fact that he still ended up voting Andante, on surface level, seems to contradict the town world. However, a lot of info exists between Page 5 and Day 3 and a lot of that vote seemed to be PoE anyway. And again, the decision came late in the form of a hammer. So there's still nothing damning here but that is another thing on my mind that I'm trying to work through.

[Sleepless Assassin]

A thought that crossed my mind was maybe Joqiza as scum would think Roadkill would vote me. But I think Umlaut would have been more likely than Roadkill and Joqiza didn't come out going hard after me so I don't think that's right. If Joqiza is scum, I'm gonna be curious post game why the Umlaut kill over Roadkill because I just can't figure that out. That combined with the Dwlee hammer is probably why I'm having trouble seeing Joqiza as scum despite my gut telling me Roadkill has appeared townier. At the time, Joqiza felt towniest Day 1 but I've been looking back and it feels like Roadkill was townier now. The fact that we have 8 days is gonna make me seriously ovethink this.

[Sleepless Assassin]

reading through the past page or two with the isoing and back and forthing is a bit much for me right now, would rather do when i am all comfy.

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?

To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.

Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.

Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.

Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.

however...

this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?

and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?

(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)

also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?

[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)

Knowing that this is town vs scum is interesting perspective. Is it Joqiza reacting weird to Andante because he's scum or is it Roadkill nitpicking and Joqiza doing something weird but not necessarily scummy. I think the biggest point in Roadkills favor is the question at the end about dramatics. That sounds like trying to understand Joqiza. Like real sorting.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante you aren't reading my posts... I gave you a whole reads list based on the premise of you being town, I'm in no way deadset on you being mafia.

I will even go ahead and UNVOTE: as Andante feels genuine in her last post.

I want to try to work with you... your Looker read could be tea but we can at least let the guy make an actual post or two first. Don't really vibe with the MC esther, I get that your theory is she's poisoning the well but I think her interpretation of Three's comment was valid. I say that because I got tripped up on the policy lim thing too.

Can you talk a little about this unvote, joqiza? Did Andantes one genuine sounding post outweigh your reasons for voting or was there more going on in your head that can't be drawn just from reading as an outsider?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sorry that's a lot of words and I'm having trouble finding time to set aside to digest it all. This game has been on my mind a lot and it's still the same things that have me stuck. I can't find it right now for some reason but right on this page joqiza said something about he'd hammer Dwlee even as scum. And that is making this harder for me, not easier. Like if he'd really do that, then my reservations about him being scum are unfounded and it's probably just him. But offering that up knowing I'm townreading him for it would be just plain weird if he's scum. Unless it's not genuine and it's him saying "don't townread me" to appear less likely to be scum. It's classic WIFOM that can go either way and unfortunately, figuring that out means more than determining whether he makes that hammer as scum.

I'm not sure what to make of the self meta of being a poor scum player either. Again, if genuine, that probably makes joqiza town because this would have been a very good scum game. However, improvement or simply one good game are both things that are possible too.

I really still think the only argument against Roadkill is just the fact that he's still alive despite being the towniest player, which as annoying as it is for Roadkill because there's no defense, does have merit.

There's also the way this day has played out. Joqiza feels like full effort making a push to win the game where Roadkill feels more... I'm not sure of the word. Stuck? Lost? I feel like scum who is playing well feels pressure and confidence at the same time. You want to finish. You want to brag that you didn't get caught. And that feels more like Joqiza.

I'm still pretty stuck. I could lean Joqiza now and in an hour lean Roadkill. I've gone back and forth more times than I could even tell you.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

What's WIM?

And yea, you've done a lot of things to make me town read you but so has Roadkill so I'm trying to figure out which read is wrong. And the hammer is the biggest thing I've town read. So that's why if that's disproven it could show I was wrong. If you believe you have done something townier, I'm all ears. I've town read you throughout the game and even gave a town case on you Day 1 long before the hammer, so there was a lot more to my read than just that. Just that solidified it. So I was weirded out when you dismissed it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm actually back to leaning Roadkill.

Ready to see what his next post brings though

[Sleepless Assassin]

(i noticed this post from looking at the vote counts, a jump from the entire game pairing off to a wagon on dwlee.

i think... hm.

i am of two minds on this because there are two worlds i have to consider for sleepless:

as mafia, a rigid scumread that he continued on until it was dead, that did not waver, was decided from the start, and there was no... room to maneuver, or rather... the choice was made *never* to deviate for some... odd reason, but the thing is.

as town, sleepless's posting is a lot more... the rigid scumread which is right and is good to be rigid but from there a... fluidity, i think? sleepless is not locked into a plan because sleepless is not mafia (...an obvious statement given the scenario presented).

this sort of post is the one i do read as the former, i think that... hm...

i don't *expect* mafia to decide that they will bus to hell and back but then, they do, and they start off with a bang. but in a quiet game there is not a bang but a whimper in terms of things to pick at for your partner, but noticing... awkwardness of all things is...

it's something because it's early but it's prescient in a way that i wonder... i wonder how early to jump on a partner is good, because it is again not an expectation of mine that it happens instantly and without remorse, but... hm.

tired eyes see this and see the groundwork being laid by sleepless but it's joqiza who has to prod a bit to really rip it out and it's only after that it's been sat down and made to be discussed does sleepless vote, which, feels... something? feels something.

I see I'm mostly just speaking to joqiza at this point because it's been confirmed to me that Roadkill is scum. Thank God I don't have to stress over that anymore. But, to address this....

Joqiza go back and look at this game, just my ISO:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88203

You'll notice three things here:
1. I was town.
2. My posting towards Iconeum was near identical to my posting towards Dwlee here. I also caught Iconeum on my first post.
3. I caught Dwlee for the same reason there as here, a certain type of awkwardness they display as scum.

I was very confident in that read for those reasons. At the time that this game started, that was my most recent completed game. I was coming off of a game where I caught scum early in Day 1 and later caught Dwlee specifically. And I'm sure I'll start my next game confident in my early reads too because of this game. That's the one thing I'm proud of in this little return to playing mafia is my ability to read players especially early in games. I wish I'd stuck to my gut with Roadkill but wow it's just hitting me I had the scum team called right away.

Joqiza think about the fact that Day 2 was Dwlee vs me. Do you really think this town was absolutely perfect that day and scum just let it happen and your decision on who to hammer didn't matter because you were hitting scum either way? You challenged Andante earlier this game to find a time town hammered just for fun at the start of a game. I'm challenging you, find a time town had to choose who to hammer and both options were scum. It's rare. I can't even recall a time and I've played a ton of mafia.

Vote Roadkill

Also don't forget Roadkill not being NK'd really is as simple as he's scum therefore wasn't an option. The Umlaut kill makes no sense for me to make. Roadkill felt like the only one who wouldn't be eliminated today. Umlaut vs Joqiza would be the perfect set up for me as scum. I was probably going to vote Umlaut. I said before yesterday's hammer I had thoughts but wasn't putting them out because I wanted to see a potential NK first in the event of Andante being town. That was my thought, that it was probably Umlaut and probably not Roadkill. I was worried putting that out there would lead to Roadkill being NK'd if he wasn't already.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Mm. On that topic, Roadkill, I respect your privacy and all and I'm not asking you to out your main but you should probs be aware that, in the absence of other info, I'm going with the working assumption that you're a strong/experienced scum player.

I'll be honest I can't hold the mistaken deadline thing against SA because I made the exact same mistake lol. Idk why I thought it just ended a day earlier for some reason until Umlaut mentioned it.

I do think SA's progression from Dwlee onto mc esther warrants clarification so @Sleepless when you see this,

What made you switch from Dwlee to mc esther, specifically?

If you could just sort of walk me through, your thought processes as best you remember, that's all I'm looking for. Thanks.

It was as simple as perceived deadline crunch time. Dwlee didn't feel viable because people just weren't voting there and I figured mc esther would actually go through. I had mc esther and three as good compromises anyway and if you're going to compromise, deadline is the time to do it. See post 234 for reference. I waited until what I believed was the last possible moment while I held out hope people would vote Dwlee. If you go back and read I communicated my thoughts pretty well. It's clear what I wanted and what I was willing to do to compromise. And I did reach out and try to get people to vote Dwlee so it's not like it's empty suspicion or anything.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I thought mc esther was individually scummier than three. I don't play Day 1 based on associatives. It just myddies your reads if you are wrong about someone. Day 1 is just about your highest chance to hit scum. I remember Three having some posts where I could.follow his logic so I was still on the fence with him. Thinking back, I really didn't think Dwlee and mc esther were scum together because one of the things that stood out about Dwlee was his mc esther vote, so if mc esther had been scum, I'd have re-evaluated Dwlee.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Another thing to consider, knowing Dwlee was bussed. If it was me/Dwlee, we were both under such suspicion that as a team we'd have to have a big endgame strategy and neither they or I really looked like scum with a big plan to make it to the end. Roadkill had enough town cred that he could afford to lose Dwlee and make it to the end of the game on his own. Bussing makes more sense as a winning strategy for Roadkill/Dwlee than it does for me/dwlee. And you know bussing occurred because Roadkill and I both pushed Dwlee. I'd have needed Dwlee alive as long as possible to feel like I could win this if I was scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bro Roadkill idk if I'm ever getting there man like legit d1 SA was only interested in voting Dwlee and when the choice between Three/Esther came up as compromise wagons he was like "yeah Three agrees with me that Dwlee needs to die so not interested" instead the only compromise he was really willing to entertain was the person who wrote 194.

I won't vote Looker. I want Dwelee and can compromise on Mc Esther. I'm not against voting Three but would rather Dwelee or Mc Esther.

I can't wrap my head around WHY, like yes granted if he endgames me then it worked I guess but goddamn.

Yeah this right here should know I had no motives on my early reads outside of "here is who I think has the best chance of being scum". If I was scum with Dwlee and saw that post, felt Dwlee wasn't viable, wouldn't it make perfect sense to preserve Mc Esther's life, keep pushing Dwlee, and be happy to see Three die right away? Why bother with Mc Esther? I know there were accusations that I figured Mc Esther for cop, but I don't see how. I even explained how Mc Esther being cop seemed to make zero sense. Sure, I was wrong. But it's in record what my thought process was. Real fluid reads and thoughts are in the thread. That's hard to fake.

To post 618, but were they the only wagons and scum cross bussing? They also had a third scum. It just feels like it would be a suicidal plan to let it play out like that. I mean I'm here so maybe not, but I can't see it being a comfortable way to play. If I was scum with Dwlee I almost think I'd have to open Day 2 with some big re-read and re-evaluation and a vote on Looker or someone just hoping we survive the day.

308 does make me a bit nervous it feels tonally awkward and might've been setting up an excuse to get off the Dwlee wagon but idk.

Nah it should be clear I wasn't going to jump off. That post was more about Andante than anything. If Dwlee had flipped town and I turned out to be wrong, I'd have liked to look back at that and wondered about Andante. I should have remembered it when we eliminated Andante though. That post should have shown Andante was town in hindsight.

I'm on vacation in Florida as of last night but will try to check in a few times today.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I don't think there's a whole lot without repeating myself. Everything is out there. It's really just use your best judgement.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Wish I'd asked SA what changed his mind in 580 earlier ugh

Sorry, I'm here but my grandparents had company over (I'm staying with them while I'm on vacation)

It was mostly just stepping away and thinking about the game and I really was thinking Roadkill anyway. It's just when I re-read Day 1 everything seemed to point the other way and you confused me with your take on Day 2. But when I took a step and thought more I was back to the same stuff. And it's last nights NK that stood out the most. I really believed that you as scum kill Roadkill. I know I'd have killed Roadkill. I'm guessing Umlaut would have killed Roadkill. Umlaut specifically being the kill just wasn't something I could figure out unless Roadkill simply is scum who obviously can't be NK'd.

Roadkill has played a great game win or lose. His AtE recently reads as genuine and he's made a strong effort in recent hours to sway you. I respect the hell out of it. He's fighting hard. And I know it's not an easy decision. I'm just hoping you get it right. And I don't envy your position one bit.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Great job Joqiza!

Great try Roadkill.

That was wild.

Awesome game everyone and thanks catboi for modding it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Yeah it was perfect. I didn't feel like I was behind the entire game.