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[Andresvmb]

^vast majority of the time*

[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

[Andresvmb]

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

[Andresvmb]

The whole IV and I were trying to get some distancing going is not a good argument, because I could turn around and make the same argument about Datisi and IV. Datisi spent a lot of time making mechanical arguments against IV, bashing their play in response to arguments made by Aristeia (and there are countless examples of this), but never bothered to put a vote down for IV. Why? If they were so sure the whole time that IV was Scum and mechanically they never made sense and all of Aristeia’s arguments were valid, why no votes in that direction? Where is the real conviction? It shows that Datisi was eager to play the game but was waiting to capitalize on an error that never came. I think this is the biggest clue we have about it.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway it’s late and I need to sleep but I will continue diving into this tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

I just think if Datisi is going to argue that there was a bunch of distancing between IV and I, they need to seriously defend why they never, even after you had put a vote on IV, why they never chose to put a vote there. They very clearly had the chance.

[Andresvmb]

Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

...no. i'm not arguing that "koba should have guessed the entire team d1", i'm arguing "koba has never in the history of us playing together gotten my alignment wrong, so the choice now is, either i've rapidly improved as a scum player in the past few months where i didn't even have the opportunity to play scum, or i'm town".

and koba wasn't wrong about either of us. they had me as town, they chucked you as null. fun fact, the reason why i reacted the way i did to koba's "wow andres is a difficult read for me idk lol" (578) is because, a while ago, i was spectating a game where they got your alignment fairly easily and were right on it. so i thought it was them talking out of their ass. but the more *likely* scenario is that they read you correctly, but didn't want to explicitly say that out loud because they didn't want to die n1.

and checking back now, turns out i did not actually call koba out based on that. i did totally think it, though.

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

[Andresvmb]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

[Andresvmb]

like, this whole thing is ignoring the fact how much of a micromanaging control freak i am as scum. if i had decided that we are bussing lapla and that iv and i are gonna party like it's 2175, then i go into the scumchat and say "ay yo lapla, sorry buddy you have to die, iv, this is how and when you're gonna vote him in order to look beeyoutiful after that flip, got it?" and then iv would go "sir yes sir" because he's aware i'm a way better scum player than he is and he'd look great after that flip and i wouldn't have to write bullshit "iv is NOT townie for the bullshit you're townreading him for but we're getting lapla first" posts

and then i would feel great shame about myself because i had just shitbussed a newbie into the ground a on page 8 but you know

IV couldn’t have fitted into your plans how you describe here because since the early part of the game, they loudly proclaimed to be taking a step back. So this is just a total fantasy again. You have been put into a position where you had to hard carry or die, and you’ve let IV skate on their claim while continuously questioning it for distance, and bussing Laplacian who so laughably froze, they didn’t even come into the thread with a claim.

[Andresvmb]

And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset.

oh, am i?

right, i'm not supposed to be a piece of shit and throw shade based on scumslips-but-not-really. back to your regularly scheduled programming then:

Now, there’s a lot of bashing of my mechanical sense in Days 4 and 5, but you know this is unfair because you yourself had reached some of the same conclusions independently! And you are obviously coming at it from a Town mindset. So having reached the wrong conclusion does not equate to Scum motivation. And sure, I was wrong about IV being mechanically cleared. That’s very obvious. But it was not unreasonable. I think I should have been more critical once IV was still alive in D5. I think that’s a fair criticism and I think this is going to cost us the game. But arguing that we should not have No Eliminated D4 with the information we had at the time does not make me Scum. That’s preposterous and it’s a really reachy argument. In the vast majority of circumstances, that would have been wrong. And I was playing large percentages there.

it does when those "wrong conclusions" are heavily scum-favourable. i don't think you can refute that scum absolutely did not, under any circumstances, want to no-yeet on d4. so the fact that you spent a decent amount of time twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to justify us having to have iv's voice around to help us guide our thinking (when he was either horribly wrong on people's alignments or just striaght up not playing) being a scumfuck move is not "reachy", it's basic fucking logic.

and sure. you're arguing that it was "not unreasonable" to conclude that iv is town based on mech. but let's relook at your conclusion there, shall we?

I will await IV’s result before I say anything, because I’m somewhat shocked that they’re still around.

this was your entrance. shocked that iv is still around. okay. then there were posts where you say iv is certainly a gunsmith, but the argument could be made that you didn't say they were a *town* gunsmith, so i'll skip over them. but the next time you actually discuss iv's alignment with regards to mechanics is:

I had reached the conclusion that you’re [IV] Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided. But I can’t imagine that the Town only had a Vigilante for 1-Shot basically (with a random Commuter addition that was never going to be used in that situation), a Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (who btw, outted and didn’t do much probably anticipating not being the strongest role, and then what, proving to be the main role for Town? absurd), and a Backup that’s gone unused.

you think town is too weak without iv's role, but you also don't think scum has a blocking role because that would again be too scumsided. but iv is definitely town.hell, i even called this out at the time in 5554, and i got the response that ari could be ascetic, which like, totally means there's not a blocker. except you yourself had already argued against ari being ascetic during the same gameday and how it's much more likely iv is scum (5127). makes you wonder.

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

[Andresvmb]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

[Andresvmb]

@Mathblade, I’m fine with you voting.

I’ve accepted the outcome either way.

[Andresvmb]

You also DID place IV as a top Town Read in one of the posts I quoted, but you’re conveniently forgetting to mention that.

that was so bad i didn't think it needed refuting, but if you insist - i placed him at the top of my readslist as a MASON claim. i posted that wallpost right after d2 started, obviously it was pre-written. and i didn't have the insider information at the time to know that house was actually fakeclaiming and that iv isn't a mason.

I just think you took advantage of the situation to move pressure away from IV, but sure.

[Andresvmb]

Did you actually read the post you’re quoting from Koba? You’re arguing in another post that you can’t read Koba’s mind. But then you proceed to make an argument entirely based on your speculation of what was going on in Koba’s mind. This is obvious nonsense.

And Koba has gotten me wrong in multiple games now. And I’ve been Town in all of them (since, as you know, I have yet to receive a Scum PM). That’s probably why they chucked me as null. It’s not because they were afraid to die N1. By that logic, they never should have attacked 2 Scum. Like why stop at 2? If you’re a loud threat to 2/3rds of the Team, are you seriously arguing that they would not shoot them only because they didn’t call out the entire Team? C’mon now this is a total fantasy. You’re putting words in Koba’s mouth in a blatant way.

falsely equating my arguments in order to be able to claim a non-existent contradiction, love to see it. i cannot know how koba is going to react around lapla, because i have never played with lapla, they have never played with lapla. but (1) i'm aware that they often lie about their reads, either to get scum to slip or to manipulate the nightkill (i even commented on this when they revealed they were fake-townreading lapla), and (2) they called you null, when i know of at least one semi-recent game (august '21, i think?) where they called you an easy read. so i don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude "huh, koba might have been bullshitting about andres's alignment because they thought he was scum", but even if that is not the case and they were considering you null... it still doesn't defeat any of my other points of them never having misread me, and every single other townread that they had on d1 here being correct.

The thing is this is nonsense. You keep insisting that Koba had an incentive to not call me out as Scum to survive, but surely they knew that if they had correctly picked out a majority of the Team, with a player list full of players that know how they are, they were never going to survive N1. So they clearly had a massive incentive to attack me if they truly felt I was Scum, but they didn’t.

Koba also said not to execute you until ELo, and here we are. You again conveniently leave that out because it fits your narrative.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no effective distinction between “what I would do as Town” and “what others think I would do as Town”. In both cases, you’re projecting what you think you do as Town to achieve your ultimate objective of winning the game. If Datisi was going to fool a group of strong players in Koba / VPB / Something_Smart / Aristeia and so on, then do you really think they could afford to not bus their teammate that was shitting the bed? Datisi is arguing that they didn’t have to highlight the fact that their teammate’s posts were overly Scummy and obvious, but Koba was also onto Laplacian very quickly for example - you probably couldn’t get away with not distancing early. At least that’s my take on it. It’s obviously a beautiful tactic that has given them enough credibility to last this long, but it’s nothing more than that.

I would agree with the general statement that IV did not need to be pushed to be made to look bad next to Laplacian, but they’re taking responsibility for something they themselves did not drive. And you can clearly see that with posts like 695 and 738. You’re telling me they were pushing their buddy at the same time as they were pushing Laplacian? Or is it really circumstance driven? Because 1153 or 1197 is what a secondary push from Datisi looks like to me. Also, look at the positioning of slots in 1209. The point is clear - Datisi is taking way too much credit for something that clearly did not happen.

there is a very big difference between the two. i could write multiple thousand words on it, and i'd had to explain this concept before, but the main point is: if i'm scum here, pushing lapla is what i would do as town. but nobody in the town knows that, because nobody can actually read my mind. so i lose nothing by shutting the fuck up and not making him attract heat early. and it's not like i could've known that koba was going to latch onto lapla, your argument necessitates me being a lowkey koba mind reader.

the fact that you're linking 695 and 738 in order to refute my point is laughable. read what 738 says, "i do not townread iv, but i want to kill lapla first". nowhere am i setting up a clean trajectory for townreading iv later on. and 1153 isn't even a push, it's a sorting question.

This argument that you lose nothing is demonstrably false. You lose in the department that I know you care most about as Scum - establishing credibility. You’re too loud as Scum not to want to weave a narrative throughout the game. In the post you quoted, you indicated that as Scum, you are all about establishing a thought process that’s sensible and appears Town, but gets you closer to winning. I suspect you also know that I play the same way. The main thread behind a lot of your arguments against me is that you work meticulously to establish a narrative that gets you closer to victory, and leaves little to chance. But by implication, you’re making it sound like I can’t play like this or don’t. But this is bullshit. I do worry tremendously as Scum about the forward implications of every move I make. Yet you insisted on highlighting repeatedly throughout this game how I’m unlikely to have placed a vote of Laplacian in the way that I did, without much angling to take credit for anything. There’s an extension to this. I continued to argue for a mechanical solution to IV’s alignment I believed in, when strategically the clear choice was to distance hard at that stage. Because frankly, as Scum there, only one of us is required to win the game. You’re arguing that you didn’t have to bus in ELo because you take your wins as you can get them, but strategically you were in a bind. You very clearly couldn’t go against Aristeia’s wishes without exposing yourself, and you continued to sit back and let Aristeia drive the Endgame while continuously asking you if you were Town. Sure, you can argue that you notoriously act indecisive in ELo. But how convenient? When the chips were down, you totally failed to vote for Scum.

again, the first part of this post is implying that i as scum am so good at reading the room that i could sense that, right after that post from lapla was made, people are gonna find it suspicious, and that my future credibility is going to take a devastating hit unless i start bussing and screaming how he's scum right then and there.

i have no clue how you play scum, this is your first scumgame on this forum. snarky jokes aside, you are now arguing that the clear choice on d4/5 would've been distancing because only one of us is required to win the game, but why? from an objective standpoint, why would you start distancing when you have a scum (iv) who everyone considers locktown due to their claim and shitty setup spec? and again, who cares about exposing myself when math is already voting ari, iv is voting ari, house is screaming how he's gonna hammer her (though more than likely bait, so we'll ignore him) and i have you BEGGING me to vote ari so you could hammer. like, reading your posts on d4 once she was on two votes, you wanted to vote there. and you had been angling to vote there on d5 as well. you're telling me i'm doing revisionist history, but you're deadass trying to tell me that, with a straight face, you wanna argue how the correct choice there for scum!me was to BUS AND DISTANCE?

also, "you failed to vote scum", he says after he no-warning lolhammered iv to be able to shut aristeia up. after spending the entire past two days saying how he wants to vote aristeia, and lowkey slipping how i'm town, and arguing how iv is town. while i was trying to get ari/math to stop arguing and was trying to shut out the faulty mechanical discussion. i'm scum because i didn't vote iv. ok.

You’re still relying on your logic and vote for Laplacian to make a case as to why you’re Town. Yes, it would be devastating. Laplacian probably warned you they were shit Scum, and you did what an experienced Scum player does in that situation - take the opportunity to create an unassailable argument. My vote for Laplacian gets me no glory, and you’ve been hanging your hat on that to keep me at a distance, but now? Nope, the louder vote should clearly be more strongly town read. It’s obvious to anyone who thinks about this.

[Andresvmb]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

[Andresvmb]

And I voted to shut up Aristeia? That’s a laughable comment if I’ve ever seen one. So I let the entire two days play out as they did, and then when IV is close to the brink at the end of the day, THEN I decide it’s the right time to shut Aristeia up. That was clearly not the intention and you know it.

[Andresvmb]

You’re bashing me for considering both sides of a potential mechanical solve, and reaching the wrong conclusion. But you clearly have the benefit of additional information and like I said, I fully expect that this will cost us the game. Because there’s clearly no hiding that this benefited Scum. But the point isn’t that. The point is that you’re claiming I should be perfect in my analysis, when I made the same mistakes as Mathblade did. It just doesn’t make me Scum as much as you want to claim that it does.

i'm not bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion, i'm bashing you for reaching the wrong conclusion while committing horrible leaps in logic that town!andres doesn't commit there. is the ascetic very unlikely or are you willing to bet the game on iv being town who happened to target aristeia? where is the questioning why iv is town besides the "i'm shocked he's here"? did town!andres really forget how town almost got pushed off a cliff for blindly following a pt cop claim way back when?

You can keep hammering me on my mechanical mistakes, and I have no answer but to say that I’m sorry. I can and have screwed up horribly in other games and continuing to argue that I can’t make logical mistakes is a standard I will never meet. By this logic, you can always trash me as Scum provided I reach some wrong conclusion in a game. And it’s just not the case. I have made mistakes that have cost the Town. I never should have let Koba escape with a claim in a different game that was so laughable on its face I should have hammered it. I do make mistakes. And you continuously arguing that I can’t as Town and that this makes me Scum is revealing. You want to argue you haven’t played a meticulously planned game, but you aren’t the one getting hammered for making mistakes. I am.

[Andresvmb]

With inside information, properly distancing from IV who really had no business being alive is easy. Locking yourself into thinking that mechanics cleared IV makes my life impossible as Scum. Why didn’t I avoid voting for a No Execution then? You fail to explain that. You also fail to explain why I let the days run so damn long with the obvious knowledge that people can change their minds. And I didn’t bait an execution by House when I clearly could have, instead giving you the time to make up your mind, which you mysteriously didn’t. But that’s okay because as Town that’s how you play so of course that’s fine.

[Andresvmb]

And you keep making the same point about why distance there when you didn’t have to. But that’s not the reality of how the day actually played out. And I don’t have to beg you to vote Aristeia there. I could have done it, and baited a hammer anywhere. I didn’t. It’s like I was actually trying to suss out what you were up to, and you refused to commit.

baited a hammer by whom? math, iv, you, me, ari, house. math and iv are already voting there. ari was not going to hammer herself, house could've been bluffing because god knows what goes on through his head, and i was very clearly not yet ready to hammer. who could you have possibly baited a hammer out of there?

Obviously House. Or I could have voted and ratcheted up the pressure on you to actually do something.

[Andresvmb]

like, the choice right now is, either i was town who thought iv was scum, but was paralyzed to actually vote for him because losing games is scary, or i'm scum who kept diverting any and all attention toward iv, actively stopping the math/ari and andres/ari arguments, while also stalling and not wanting to commit to the bus because...?

The problem is this is such absurd revisionist history that I can’t argue with the hyperbole. You did not have nearly the influence that you claim in the outcome of any of the past few days. You just don’t. And I haven’t even revisited properly the executions of Frogsterking or Skitter. Which you’ve completely glossed over.

Aristeia is centrally responsible for the death of IV. You aren’t. You’re claiming an absurd amount of credit for something you weren’t primarily responsible for, and didn’t vote for. You’ve voted for No Execution (which btw, I did too), and that’s the extent of what you’ve actually done over the last several days. This constant “refocus” you claim to have been doing on IV? It’s just nonsense. Aristeia kept the light constantly focused there, and you so obviously took a back seat it’s really funny.

Strategically, you didn’t have a choice. You clearly wanted to maximize your pocket of Aristeia, and envisioned that would get you a victory. Well, I suspect you’ve succeeded, in as much as I expect Mathblade to vote for me since they’ve claimed to have made up their mind without reading any of my responses.

i'm not talking about executions of skitter or frogs at all.

and sure, aristeia was the main driving force behind the iv yeet, i'm not claiming otherwise. but you know what happens to townies who are correct in yelo, but nobody thinks they're town? they get executed! math *clearly* thought ari was scum, town!andres did too. do you know how easy it is to enable one of them? math thinks i'm town, town!andres think i'm town, just make some bullshit up about aristeia and get one of them to vote her! instead i kept bringing up how mech makes no sense and the house kill doesn't come from scum!ari because lol?

and the "i voted no exe" is laughable. "i voted no exe,

after arguing really hard why we shouldn't vote no exe

." "you didn't vote iv, i voted iv,

after arguing why aristeia is scum, iv is town, and me panic-hammering iv after it was clear as day he was gonna flip with or without me, i voted iv.

" good job, you managed to bus when it was inevitable. the fact that you're using that fact as if it actually means something is telling.

maximize my pocket of aristeia. yeah, it's really useful to me now!! aristeia is going to bring scum!me victory after i sent her to the dead thread last night!! brilliant plan scumtisi. just fucking brilliant.

Aristeia clearly expressed more uncertainty about how they would play today when pressed than Mathblade did. Why is that not relevant all of a sudden?

[Andresvmb]

And the only other thing I would bring up is that you came into today asking me a question but without the conviction to vote me, when you’ve been making a mechanical argument against Mathblade ever possibly being Scum. Like this is what bugs me about this whole thing and why I’m somewhat irritated about how I think this is going to play out. You have constantly made arguments about mechanics over the last two days that you say clearly establish that you couldn’t possibly be Scum with IV. But then why not come into today voting me immediately? How does that even make sense? I think you were hoping I would potentially express some uncertainty around Mathblade because if they’re mechanically cleared, why are they still alive? At the very least I foiled that plan.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not about there not being a thought process. It’s about me being embarrassed to admit that I decided I would shut myself off to some extent from the mechanical discussion because I felt Mathblade and Aristeia had a much stronger grasp of mechanics and I was SR’ing Aristeia, so I didn’t trust that analysis and leaned on Mathblade for some of it. I should have questioned it more and I can’t really defend that. This is a mistake I’m going to have to re-learn for good, in that I can’t take mechanical shortcuts and should focus far more on the play.

[Andresvmb]

Are you serious? You’re arguing that you spent that much time making arguments about the setup, and then you actually thought to chuck that all out the window when it matters most? Gee, it’s like having convictions isn’t important at all, and it’s just whatever works. I wonder what kind of mindset is that?

[Andresvmb]

What more self-meta could Mathblade possibly need?

[Andresvmb]

It’s not that you couldn’t consider that you could be wrong. It’s that you’ve spent what, the better part of two weeks or whatever it is making an argument that conveniently distances you from your Scum mate practically perfectly, but when it’s the end of the game, then all of a sudden you should be given room to reconsider? What it shows, decisively, is that you will leave every avenue open to victory regardless of the merits of the cases you claim to have relied on when looking at the game. I find it preposterous that you want us all to believe that being indecisive here isn’t blatant evidence of a Scum mindset.

[Andresvmb]

I could also point out that I have acted decisively as Town in this sort of situation multiple times. So trying to attribute some Scum mindset to my vote here without you know, checking my meta as you seem to be so willing to do for yourself, should be viewed with the skepticism it deserves.

[Andresvmb]

Oh now everything is NAI when it comes to you.

You know, now I know what to say as Scum towards the end of a game I’m still around when faced with questions as to why I didn’t actually act in a Town positive way when it mattered the most. I’m indecisive, so you know, that’s just how I am, so don’t expect me to actually vote out Scum with the game on the line, and “it’s NAI”. But never admit to mistakes, because you know, that could be perceived as Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’m taking a break from this. I have to go do some grocery shopping.

@Math, I’m happy with you submitting a vote like I said. I don’t think this is going to progress much further.

[Andresvmb]

I could also point out that I have acted decisively as Town in this sort of situation multiple times. So trying to attribute some Scum mindset to my vote here without you know, checking my meta as you seem to be so willing to do for yourself, should be viewed with the skepticism it deserves.

i don't do second-hand meta. and sure, you act decisively as town. again, where was that decisiveness when you were supposed to be voting aristeia? nope, it was not there. and weren't you the one arguing how, when you make mistakes, you lose confidence? wait, you were!

And I am confident, most of the time. I can even come across as arrogant. That’s all true. But not when I’ve been consistently wrong and my reads have proven to be bad. Why are you not adding that caveat? You can clearly tell in games I have made a lot of mistakes, I stop pushing hard. And when the game begins to validate what I’m seeing, I gain in confidence and influence. It depends. There’s no absolute about any of it. No one plays the same all the time. And do you seriously think I’m losing interest here?

Yet I failed to act confidently to put Town at risk of losing, but I have actually acted confidently when I realized it needed to be done in a Town positive way, and you’re faulting me for that? Hilarious.

[Andresvmb]

Oh I no longer have to pretend to make arguments I really don’t believe in? Good.

[Andresvmb]

Good game all I had a lot of fun. I have a lot of thoughts in the Scum PT which should be opened ASAP so you guys can see what I think.

[Andresvmb]

I failed strategically to win this game and I think that’ll hurt for a bit, because we could have had it.

It’s funny because I came in and I said I REALLY don’t want to bus and it was just made impossible. I fully planned on openwolfing until getting executed and I ended up as the last guy around with a lot of really questionable pushes and some horrific mechanical arguments. Shoot me next time I try to stick to there being an unclaimed Ascetic that was investigated by a Gunsmith still alive for some reason after an even night when they claimed to be Even night. Absurd.

[Andresvmb]

Andres really carried the scumteam this game and I’m sorry you got essentially two deadweight scum partners for your first time, you really held on most teams aren’t like us lol

@IV you did good! I had a hoot honestly and I wouldn’t recommend anyone try and out-argue Datisi. It’s funny because I was cackling when I saw that I hadn’t misread Datisi because it’s both funny and damning. I mean getting you right when you’ve been 50/50 in alignments is really good accuracy and it’s hard to argue against. It’s also why I kept the Town Read there until I couldn’t hold it anymore. Because I knew you would be out to get me. I predicted it!

I have a lot of praise for some Town players here and there wasn’t anyone I think played really subpar. I don’t have positive things to say about that A50 stunt but I can’t argue it affected the game so I’m okay with this loss.

Well modded catboi!

[Andresvmb]

I think you guys could've won if you had killed Mathblade instead of House - it would've been very hard imo for Datisi to not vote for House atp.

Yeah no 100%. That was an error. I didn’t believe the claim for a second btw hahaha you’ll see in the PT. It was purely done for strategic reasons.

[Andresvmb]

I failed strategically to win this game and I think that’ll hurt for a bit, because we could have had it.

It’s funny because I came in and I said I REALLY don’t want to bus and it was just made impossible. I fully planned on openwolfing until getting executed and I ended up as the last guy around with a lot of really questionable pushes and some horrific mechanical arguments. Shoot me next time I try to stick to there being an unclaimed Ascetic that was investigated by a Gunsmith still alive for some reason after an even night when they claimed to be Even night. Absurd.

if you just vote ari while math is tunneling her, you prob pressure math to hammer there

I lost this game trying to get too cute. I think it could have been won with some more aggressive play there at the end.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi any comments now that the Scum Thread is open? Hahaha