Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Coral]

Hi!

very okay with a hammer on galron, still catching up and will see if there's anything I think needs to be responded to before then

what were your thoughts behind this post, coral? (ik it might seem like a dumb q but bear with me)

I saw Don post 834 and 853, and I hadn't checked in since Galron's claim (which happened while I was asleep). Claiming and then abandoning thread seemed like obvious scum to me so I was happy with a hammer there. I was busy all of the previous day so I hadn't really commented on a lot of what had happened, and thought I might still want to do so, but ended up deciding that there wasn't much that was relevant anymore.

[Coral]

why did you say "but not both" here?

god it really fucking sucks that coral wasn't around when i was drunk and there was a lot of pressure around don, because i think it would've been really informative to see how she played around that

I had a reason why I decided they were unlikely paired at that point, I'll try to look for what it was. I do remember that later that day, once Galron was looking like clearly scum, I reassessed the reason and decided it wasn't good. Maybe it was just that it felt like at that point both had disappeared and the game is never that easy? Xayah hadn't posted substantially for over 40 hours at the time I posted that. I think I also just tend to believe that it's very unlikely both of my top scumreads on day 1 are correct.

And I agree, it's unfortunate I wasn't around, but I had important things going on all day. I will just say that I think that it's pretty clear that I didn't make any real effort to push anyone in the days prior, or do anything to move things towards a town elimination. The fact that you did the same is part of the reason I feel you're more likely to be town. If you think I'm scum here, I'm just wondering what you think my approach or my plan was?

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

[scamper]

@scamper, how strongly were you scumreading don around page 28? because your vote is still on me (and it's not doing much there), and it seems don's somewhat decently being scumread by the thread, any reason you didn't vote him at the time?

i already sort of answered this in my responses to coral: i dont really remember "how strongly" i was scumreading don at the time, because i dont necessarily keep track of such things, and i definitely dont keep an ordered ranking of players in my head or assign weighted values to them or anything.

what i can tell you, in exacting detail, is WHY i was scumreading don because i recall every bit of that and i think its one of the surest things that makes me town, because i have that internal thought process i can call back on here.

so to explain that:

- i thought his gamestate read of scum being in you/ausuka/ari was an obvious fallacy

- he was pushing ari/ausuka, two slots i thought were clearly town, in ways that felt were very underhanded/disingenuous

- he did things like promising cases and not delivering, on me and then on ausuka, which felt like a scum thing to me because i have seen scm procrastinate on delivering content before, and usually when townies are making a case, they just *do* it, they dont make a show of how they are writing a case and are going to deliver it soon. i thought him acting like he had arguments but nt actually presenting them could be scum struggling to manufacture a credible push.


looking at the pages where that took place, it looks like i was interacting with you because i suspected you but didn't wanna flip you. i was doubting my scumread on you a bit based on your responses but didnt know what to do with my vote. i was pretty annoyed at ari getting tilted out of the game and ended up making a pretty emotional vote on meg. but prior to that i was still questioning don, i think i might have been still trying to sort him, or waiting for him to produce more content? that, or i had the sense that enough people were defending him that he wasnt a likely wagon. i think when i cleared my head from fighting with meg it seemed clear to me that galron was the best vote given he wasnt contributing at all and was in my poe. but even then im not sure it was me wanting to vote him because i thought he was scum as much as i wanted to get rid of him for not doing anything. i think he only became clearly scum when he claimed rolecop and vanished.

[Coral]

like, some of scamper's posts are obviously like, bad in retrospect, but there seemed to be multiple points where he could've argued against a galron elim harder than he did. like if scum, it seems like he was planning on throwing shade on multiple people and hoping someone latches onto it so that galron doesn't flip, *but* he didn't do that in one of the bigger shitfights of arivaus, and there were better arguments he could've done against possible misyeets

like, if he's scum then he kinda-but-not-really let galron die, and that feels weird? at least it feels weird from a more experienced player, i probably would've been scumreading that from a newer player

and i'm wondering if d1 would've played out differently if a scumbuddy was more present, which scamper was, but coral wasn't really, at least not in the latter parts of the day

I don't understand why these points apply to making scamper town and not me? Just because I was busy that weekend, so I wouldn't have had time to post if I was scum? I was posting for around 3 hours on Saturday (and could have made time later in the day if I felt like it was important), but my focus was mostly on just kind of engaging with what was going on, I ended up finding some reasons to townread a few people, and didn't make any pushes on anything. If I were scum there I would have taken a more active role in pushing things towards a town elimination. I'm capable of doing that and it is generally my priority.

[scamper]

and i kind of think you exaggerate the extent to how "attention-grabby" your push on penguin was that game but i also think you have no reason to lie about that this game and its likely you just remembered it different. its true you were on phoe early bu i dont think its *impossible* for you tp pressure a teammate early in a game either

i had legit never done the "this is the vc, i want EVERYONE to give thoughts and stances" and whatever bs i did there, which is what i am thinking of, so i wouldn't say i'm exaggerating

i think you may be talking about two different things here bc pressuring a teammate is one thing, but actually getting on him (with intent to yeet, which i'm assuming is implied here) is another thing

like i am definitely capable of pressuring buddies early as scum

okay, fair enuf

in my reread of that game it was moreso that you at first just voted penguin silently and then added stuff on later but the reasons werent very strong (because there couldnt be strong reasons because he didnt do a lot) but the point about the vc and wanting people to make stances and that being very showy makes sense

[Datisi]

Hi!

very okay with a hammer on galron, still catching up and will see if there's anything I think needs to be responded to before then

what were your thoughts behind this post, coral? (ik it might seem like a dumb q but bear with me)

I saw Don post 834 and 853, and I hadn't checked in since Galron's claim (which happened while I was asleep). Claiming and then abandoning thread seemed like obvious scum to me so I was happy with a hammer there. I was busy all of the previous day so I hadn't really commented on a lot of what had happened, and thought I might still want to do so, but ended up deciding that there wasn't much that was relevant anymore.

mmm

did you have any thoughts on the actual claim?

[scamper]

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

i would not say you "gradually found" reasons to townread those people, or if you did, it did not show up visibly in the thread. it read more like you were setting up alternatives until they no longer became viable wagons. show me where you found reasons to townread don, ari, or me?

[scamper]

like you can say: i narrowed down my suspects via process of elimination to arrive at galron being scum.

but from what is visible in the thread i don't see that happening, and that also coincides with the rest of the thread starting to encircle galron for not doing anything. so it seems fairly convenient in terms of its timing especially with you not having been very active to that point

[Coral]

This is where both scamper and Datisi's positioning towards Galron kinda flip. Galron has some entrance posts, Xayah and Datisi think they are at least decent, and Datisi moves his vote off, onto me. scamper then votes Galron in 259, criticizing the entrance.

scamper's switch onto Galron here is something that actually drew my attention when I was first looking back at things either night 1 or night 2. Phoenix could be written off as newbie and he efforts enough to probably dodge being eliminated day 1, although he would likely still be a candidate. Galron, though... in this playerlist, with Datisi and Ausuka as relatively charismatic players already suspicious of the slot, and Ari sheeping Datisi... Galron isn't going to post enough to get townread here, and in all likelihood will just die. scamper knows all this, and seeing two people call the entrance good for bad reasons, could have seen an opportunity here to jump in and pressure and get ahead of things, looking like they are going against the grain of town consensus onto scum. Of course, it's also possible that Datisi scum would want to back off for the same reason but opposite conclusion, realizing that if he wants a town elim day 1, he should find somewhere else to push quickly. Both possibilities are believable at this point.

i awsnt to point out this bit because the logic here is really strange to me

because when i was rereading, i felt like that was the sequence that was *most* +town for me. with a fresh replacement in the slot, and a bunch of people townreading him for bad reasons, that is the perfect opportunity to get eyes off the slot, and i do the opposite of that. i go in on the attack, i directly criticize galrons reasoning, i dispute people saying his posts were good. i dont do that as scum if i dont have to. in the mini normal, while i pushed on johnny for lurking excessively, i found excuses to unvote him if i could, when people were wrongly townreading him i mostly let it happen - i think i said i was unsure on him a few times but i didnt *directly attack him**. i won bus if i dont have to and that is especially true in a micro cuz you can lose the game thru night actions after a day 1 scumflip. so in this position i think attacking galron is clearly +town or should be seen as such.

(theres also a little thing about how galron pushing don was technically in defense of me and how i dont really think he has the guts to defend a partner like that,and how i was suspicious of don there (i think) but immediately chose to attack galron instead because his reasoning was bad. but those are smaller points that may not be as convincing).


so what i find puzzling is you examine tha same sequence and your first interpretation of it is to assign *scum* motivation to it, by suggesting i am trying to "get ahead of things" by opposing town consensus and pushing on galron. and to me that is a really weird and counter-intuitive conclusion to reach? like anything of course can be a bus. and from your pov one of us has to have bussed. but to go "this person was pushing scum against thread consensus so they were probably trying to get ahead of things" just doesn't make much sense to me. why can't i just be town who correctly scumread galron's entrance? and if i'm "going against thread consensus" what am i trying to get "ahead" of, exactly? you act like the slot was destined to die because datisi was scumreading it, but datisi was one of the people who backed off because of galron's entrance. so this really doesnt make sense to me...

If this were day 2 or day 3, I would agree with you. I would think that you're more likely to be town for this (and I did at the time!) because it is a surface level towny thing to do. But there's nobody else left at this point, it's either you or Datisi. So I have to sort through and decide which pattern of play benefits scum more. Neither of you are surface level players. You both would be setting things up to go deep here. You're both very capable of making moves like this to point to later as reasons for why you're town.

My point with this section was to examine both of your actions. I laid out a possible scum motivation for both of you, it wasn't just about you. My conclusion was that your actions look good, at the cost of adding some pressure to a partner. Datisi's actions look bad, at the benefit of relieving some pressure from a partner. Both are possible choices that you could make, as I said. But what's important is seeing how the rest of the game plays out in surrounding this choice, in order to provide context for it, and see which fits better into an overall pattern of scumplay.

For yours, some of the pressure is not as strong as it looks since two people just backed off Galron. You have some room to work with. You also later find a reason to back off Galron while still finding him scummy (he isn't paired with anyone else you're suspecting, which is very clever, and you also, i've just realized, you don't have to worry about anyone calling you out for relying on preflips/hero solves since you have no completed town games to compare to). You then proceed to push elsewhere.

For Datisi's, it looks bad, but then... he does nothing? He doesn't ever push anywhere else? What's the point of relieving that pressure if he doesn't then place it somewhere else? He's very capable of doing so and absolutely would do so as scum. He can easily make up a case on Don or Meg or someone, just like you did.

The point is that both of you would be making a tradeoff with your actions there, and it presents a question -- which one of you took further action that aligns with that plan? You responding by saying "well actually I look towny for that" is dodging the point completely. I'm aware that you look towny for that. That's why you did it.

[Coral]

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

i would not say you "gradually found" reasons to townread those people, or if you did, it did not show up visibly in the thread. it read more like you were setting up alternatives until they no longer became viable wagons. show me where you found reasons to townread don, ari, or me?

like you can say: i narrowed down my suspects via process of elimination to arrive at galron being scum.

but from what is visible in the thread i don't see that happening, and that also coincides with the rest of the thread starting to encircle galron for not doing anything. so it seems fairly convenient in terms of its timing especially with you not having been very active to that point

I think I went over this in 1468 with Datisi. If you have more questions beyond what's answered in that though, let me know!

[Coral]

Hi!

very okay with a hammer on galron, still catching up and will see if there's anything I think needs to be responded to before then

what were your thoughts behind this post, coral? (ik it might seem like a dumb q but bear with me)

I saw Don post 834 and 853, and I hadn't checked in since Galron's claim (which happened while I was asleep). Claiming and then abandoning thread seemed like obvious scum to me so I was happy with a hammer there. I was busy all of the previous day so I hadn't really commented on a lot of what had happened, and thought I might still want to do so, but ended up deciding that there wasn't much that was relevant anymore.

mmm

did you have any thoughts on the actual claim?

I probably would have if I had seen it happen live, but by the time I got there he had already been missing for several hours after claiming and that was much stronger of a reason for me. On seeing it as I was reading up, though, I did immediately think that it didn't seem like a role that really fit with my role, but I'm not very confident in my setup speculation abilities, so it wasn't a reason I was going to hang anything on.

[scamper]

I think that a point that scamper criticized, about how I had a wide candidate list in 279 and then over time I gradually found reasons to townread all of those people except for Galron or Xayah, while also making no case or push on Xayah, is actually pretty +town for me. I don't see how that advances scum wincon at all.

i would not say you "gradually found" reasons to townread those people, or if you did, it did not show up visibly in the thread. it read more like you were setting up alternatives until they no longer became viable wagons. show me where you found reasons to townread don, ari, or me?

like you can say: i narrowed down my suspects via process of elimination to arrive at galron being scum.

but from what is visible in the thread i don't see that happening, and that also coincides with the rest of the thread starting to encircle galron for not doing anything. so it seems fairly convenient in terms of its timing especially with you not having been very active to that point

I think I went over this in 1468 with Datisi. If you have more questions beyond what's answered in that though, let me know!

all right. that tracks, at least. i'm not sure i buy it but it's plausible

[Coral]

i mean, you can say i was "laying groundwork" or whatever and that is probably a little close to how i played scum in my last game, i would suggest someone as a suspect and let town do the work, but i think in this game i would have realized i needed to make actual pushes to get a wagon thru. maybe i wouldnt have. idk. but i think if i *wanted* to flip don i wuld have gone for it rather than doing what i did. a lot of my day 1 was wrapped up in trying to play like skitter and that included me voting dats but not raelly pushing him, just wantig to talk to him. i think i was playing in a way that was pretty un-tactical as scum

Okay, but you still did more to push things towards a town elimination than either me or Datisi did. I like the bit about you getting wrapped up in playing like skitter, that's pretty funny (and kinda cute actually), and does explain a few things. I did think your vote on Datisi to try to talk to him was a little strange.

[scamper]

For yours, some of the pressure is not as strong as it looks since two people just backed off Galron. You have some room to work with. You also later find a reason to back off Galron while still finding him scummy (he isn't paired with anyone else you're suspecting, which is very clever, and you also, i've just realized, you don't have to worry about anyone calling you out for relying on preflips/hero solves since you have no completed town games to compare to). You then proceed to push elsewhere.

i mean, againi think this is weirdly over-elaborateand does not take full consideration of whether the play makes sense tactically. i do think me pulling my vote off galron is not soething i should be claered for and my timing of doing so is like something i would do as scum. but the initial push is just suicidally bad as scum. you are aguing "it was safe because other peole backed off galron"> but what if my callout makes them change their minds? there is a risk with every distancing action you take that it can add momentum that spirals into an elim. pushing galron at that point time as distance carries a very real risk of him getting flipped if my arguments are actually persuasive.

reasoning like this comes across as you *wanting* to say i am scum more than having a logical thought process for it. that doesn't necessarily make you scum because town can do this sort of thing too (unfortunately) but it is frustrating to deal with.

[Coral]

which is... very not doing anything to move things towards Don. It's even giving a convincing reason to just elim Galron. Datisi as scum would easily have room here to take advantage of scamper's Don case to push Don harder himself. He had plenty of ammunition. But despite exploring that direction a little bit, he didn't go for it. And his vote on Galron here is pretty much the nail in the coffin. Datisi was kind of the swing vote here, if he and/or Ausuka had ended up landing on Don, the end of day 1 looks very different.

this is also...really odd because it presupposed don was the viable scum driven counterwagon here when...the ones pushing it were only galron and me, sort of? and the idea that scum!tisi would push that vote and not doing so and taking any other route is towny is just weird to me

and i did think at the time that datisi moving momentum back toward galron was +town, but he didnt really agitate for other people to vote galron. i guess you could say from the tenor of his catchup posts he could have easily made a push on don instead and so the decision and timing is good but if you look at the wagon state it wasnt necessarily a guarantee people would join there. i guess what im saying is while i think its a good look for datisi but you are treating the vote as far more influential than i feel it actually was

I don't think that you and Galron were the only two suspecting Don at all, though. He had a lot of early suspicion, I still had some left over, there was an argument that he had was Ausuka where Ausuka was finding him scummy, and he's also just kind of generally outside the pool of familiarity that it would be very difficult to eliminate within on day 1 (I would put you, me, ari, datisi, and ausuka in this group). Another possibility would be Meg, but me and Datisi townread them. Look at page 27. I think the sentiment there is obvious, and there's quite a bit of pressure towards Don.

[Coral]

i mean, againi think this is weirdly over-elaborateand does not take full consideration of whether the play makes sense tactically. i do think me pulling my vote off galron is not soething i should be claered for and my timing of doing so is like something i would do as scum. but the initial push is just suicidally bad as scum. you are aguing "it was safe because other peole backed off galron"> but what if my callout makes them change their minds? there is a risk with every distancing action you take that it can add momentum that spirals into an elim. pushing galron at that point time as distance carries a very real risk of him getting flipped if my arguments are actually persuasive.

reasoning like this comes across as you *wanting* to say i am scum more than having a logical thought process for it. that doesn't necessarily make you scum because town can do this sort of thing too (unfortunately) but it is frustrating to deal with.

I don't want either of you to be scum but one of you has to be

And that's fair, it would be a risky play, but the overall pattern still looks more like a scum agenda to me than Datisi's play, and those are my only two options

[scamper]

i mean, you can say i was "laying groundwork" or whatever and that is probably a little close to how i played scum in my last game, i would suggest someone as a suspect and let town do the work, but i think in this game i would have realized i needed to make actual pushes to get a wagon thru. maybe i wouldnt have. idk. but i think if i *wanted* to flip don i wuld have gone for it rather than doing what i did. a lot of my day 1 was wrapped up in trying to play like skitter and that included me voting dats but not raelly pushing him, just wantig to talk to him. i think i was playing in a way that was pretty un-tactical as scum

Okay, but you still did more to push things towards a town elimination than either me or Datisi did. I like the bit about you getting wrapped up in playing like skitter, that's pretty funny (and kinda cute actually), and does explain a few things. I did think your vote on Datisi to try to talk to him was a little strange.

the thing is, obviously galrons partner did not succeed in saving him, so obviously scum did not play fully optimally. and if you argument was that i was trying to save him with what i did...couldnt i have tried to do a lot more than i actually did?

"we didnt do anything to help galron" is just not very compelling to me as a towncase because you dont always have the influence to make that happen. and to me it looked like you did try pushing on other people but didnt have the presence to actually push for a wagon, if you are scum. if datisi is scum he just didnt have other places he felt safe pushing

[Coral]

the idea that i get into a heated thread bloating argument with someone where i accuse them of being disingenuous as a scum tactic to keep them from voting my teammate is just...rather far fetched? personally when i get into arguments as scum its because i want to discredit my attacker and maybe make things so tedious that people will tune out because hey dont awnt to hear anymore of us, so the arguments against me will fall on deaf ears. i think u could very plausibly think that was what i was doing here and i wouldn't have a problem with it. i think if i was scum i would have actually tried to push meg strongly rather than just staking potshots at them and implying they are bad. i did bbriefly make a vote on them but it was an emotionalone and i retracted it later, i would have no problem going full bore calling meg lockscum if i was scum. but since i am town my job is to acually try to figure out peoples alignment and not just blindly try to kill them because they displease me


so again, the thought that i got into an argument with meg *to keep their vote off galron* is just bizarre to me

Shrug. The point of me looking at that section is not to say that you are scum for it. In isolation, it's absolutely something that I would lean town on. The point was more about considering "is there any world where this makes sense as scumplay?", and I decided yes, I think there is. Maybe my reason is far-fetched and your reason is better. The point is that there exists a reason, and it's a believable enough reason, so it's something I can't clear you for. That wasn't very clear in my original post, but it is what I meant.

If I were smart (or scum) and cared about having a case that people wouldn't be able to pick apart for having weak reasons, I wouldn't include that. But it's part of my thought process and I like to share my full thought process as town and I just naively assume that in doing so my townie energy will shine through

[scamper]

I don't think that you and Galron were the only two suspecting Don at all, though. He had a lot of early suspicion, I still had some left over, there was an argument that he had was Ausuka where Ausuka was finding him scummy, and he's also just kind of generally outside the pool of familiarity that it would be very difficult to eliminate within on day 1 (I would put you, me, ari, datisi, and ausuka in this group). Another possibility would be Meg, but me and Datisi townread them. Look at page 27. I think the sentiment there is obvious, and there's quite a bit of pressure towards Don.

i am pretty sure at that exact point in time you accuse me of trying to build momentum against him, ausuka was calling him towny and i was disputing it so its not like she was likely to vote him

[scamper]

i checked and she said her townread on don was evaporating but then when back to calling him town on the next page

still if i actually cared about trying to elim him as scum i wouldjust...vote him, not do what i did

[Coral]

the thing is, obviously galrons partner did not succeed in saving him, so obviously scum did not play fully optimally. and if you argument was that i was trying to save him with what i did...couldnt i have tried to do a lot more than i actually did?

"we didnt do anything to help galron" is just not very compelling to me as a towncase because you dont always have the influence to make that happen. and to me it looked like you did try pushing on other people but didnt have the presence to actually push for a wagon, if you are scum. if datisi is scum he just didnt have other places he felt safe pushing

You could have, but that would be the first thing that people would look for if Galron did flip (which he almost certainly would at some point). You can see in the hood night 1 how I am very tempted to clear you for the fact that I felt you didn't push as hard as you could have on town. Doing that is what got you to ELO here. And yet you still did some, tried to feel things out to see if anything was viable, and looked In general like you weren't pushing anything hard yourself but were positioning to be ready to jump on any of the people who were the most likely alternatives, if town ever ended up pushing there. Unfortunately for you, they never really did.

You say it looks to you like I did try pushing on other people, who would that be?

[Coral]

the thing is, hypothetically, does scum!tisi need to actually push townies that much after moving off galron? if no one is pushing him and people are giving his partner some grace he can stay in the background and not have to push anyone. he called ari/ausuka/meg townie but called everyone else muddy so its not like he was cutting off his options.

...yes? what? when have you ever seen Datisi play like this

[Coral]

because first of all it's implying a degree of communication that rarely happens in scum PTs, and secondly its trying me to him because we both were pushig don to some extent. and that doesnt really make sense. if i am pushing a don elim to that point i have done a really poor job actually persuading anyone. so the idea that i go and tell galron "dw, i got this, we can kill don, just keep pushing him" is ??? to me.

and like, coral has played scum before. she knows this is not how scum teams operate or how they communicate. this doesnt really make sense.

I say things like this in scum PTs all the time

I don't think it's that uncommon? Like maybe even something like "you really need to post, don is looking like the most likely possible alternative right now" seems not at all unlikely

[Coral]

You should just be glad I'm not bringing up the point about coaching Phoenix to break his pattern of scumreading his scum partners, because I know that's a little ridiculous but in my heart I really do still believe in it

[Coral]

the thing is, hypothetically, does scum!tisi need to actually push townies that much after moving off galron? if no one is pushing him and people are giving his partner some grace he can stay in the background and not have to push anyone. he called ari/ausuka/meg townie but called everyone else muddy so its not like he was cutting off his options.

...yes? what? when have you ever seen Datisi play like this

Okay actually hmm I did just have a moment of seeing your point