House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[PenguinPower]

Because town didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675, that means that VP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip.

The master of coin is the chief financial adviser of the king and is a member of the small council in King's Landing.

[VP Baltar]

I'm actually Pooky. Mod god scum slip. Try to stop me now, town.

[mastina]

GL/Lukewarm
do you feel weird at all about voting with each other

Theory confirmed; the lack of renewed strength in Dann being confscum here is due to him having not posted, since when he does, it is obvious as fuck.

Tone-wise he's just flat as fuck, and perspective-wise, he's just not engaging in a way that is bridging the gaps the way a town-Dann does.

Dannflor is the definition of "town glue". He's probably the one player onsite most apt for that. Of all players onsite, he is the one I MOST think of as being a town glue when he is town.

He is not the glue this game, therefore, he is not town this game.

everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.

the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

(It's because they're scumbuddies.)

[mastina]

Because town didn't know "master of coin" was an actual council position on 675, that means that VP Baltar thinking Firebringer's advocating could be scum wanting to be on the council, is a perspective slip.

The master of coin is the chief financial adviser of the king and is a member of the small council in King's Landing.

Yes, you're proving my point.

My point is this:

Pooky's first mention of Master of Coin being in the game was [post]675;

there is

NO

information from Pooky before that saying the position is in the game

;

Firebringer was desiring to be Master of Coin from page one;

Firebringer had no way of knowing "master of coin" was a real position at the time

;

Firebringer could not have known that Master of Coin was an actual council position and thus

Firebringer could not have been advocating for a council position

because town didn't know what the council positions were;

The town had NO information about council positions until Pooky gave it;

For all the town knew, the council positions could have been nameless and flavorless

;

VP Baltar argued that Firebringer was arguing for Master of Coin to argue for a council position

, but per the above (the town did not know the council positions had names, and that master of coin was one of the named positions),

Firebringer wouldn't have known

;

VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer was doing something that Firebringer literally couldn't have done, reveals that

VP Baltar knew details about the roles and assumed it was a given that scum knew those things

.

And that last part is the important part:

VP Baltar assumed that scum having information was a given, when there is nothing to suggest that, ergo, VP Baltar assuming it as a given is

a perspective slip

.

[PenguinPower]

ok..but...hear me out here...this theme is based on a show in which we know what the small council positions are....

[Thestatusquo]

Can you stop it with the bolding and font sizes. It makes it really unpleasant to read.

[PenguinPower]

i mean - mastina is totally town here but I'm just not seeing this as a slip even though I want to

[mastina]

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

alright, explain why I'm wrong then. Explain why he's scum.

I'm not even confident he is scum, but he certainly doesn't come across as so trustworthy.
You say he's hasn't expressed slimy scumreads - sure, but what are his scum reads? We're in a part of the game where scum aren't needing to wagon anyone - how is the lack of sliminess meaningful? I'd expect a scum strategy here could be to coast this part by being proactive in King electing theory to boost their own townie stakes. Steering in a pro-town direction? How? By balloting people for their opinions on Andres as king? Again this seems a fairly neutral activity in the context of VPB not expecting Andres to do much more than go with consensus. Ignoring unproductive conversations - what are you referring to here and how is that extremely townie?
My point basically is I'm not clear what sort of expectations you have for how scum would be playing this that VPB is defying such a great extent.

I can see why LLD has a vote of confidence in you being town.

(I actually think UNOwen is town here regardless of VP Baltar's alignment tbh.)

LOCKTOWN:
{Rhaenyra, Andresvmb, Andante}
{Lukewarm}

TOWN:
{UNOwen}
{Datisi}
{Dwlee99, Enchant, Firebringer, Charloux}
{PenguinPower} (almost put on same line as TSQ, but is slightly higher)
{Thestatusquo} (almost placed in maybe-town but am okay with this)

MAYBE TOWN:
{ProfessorDrapion} (might deserve to be up?)

PLACING:
{Lady LambdaDelta} (lean town right now)

???
{Junkochan}

{Titus}

LEAN SCUM:
{Bellaphant}

SCUM:
{VP Baltar}
{GuiltyLion, Dannflor}

[mastina]

my current thinking for council picks - {Andres, VPB, Datisi, LLD, Mastina, Firebringer, TSQ}

Btw for the record--I feel that GuiltyLion's pivot away from this is actually scum-motivated.

I realize that town can change their reads on players, and there was a gap between GL posting these and me having posted more content--
But the shift in GL's stance from preferring me to be on the council to calling me as scum came after I doubled-down on him being scum.

The change in read is strategic, rather than natural.

If GuiltyLion's read on me fluidly evolved based off of a genuine shift in belief, then that'd be one thing.

But GuiltyLion's shift in read on me came from a disingenuous-as-fuck overexaggeration of a nonissue. He went from having me as town enough to be a council-choice, to saying I am scum, after I started seriously pushing him as scum.

Yet it wasn't a change of "mastina is scum because she is pushing me" (not that that'd be believable anyway), but rather, "mastina is scum for holding this stance that is statistically unlikely", when neither half of the point was true (it was not the stance I was holding, and it is not statistically unlikely).

It's a defensive change in reads, born from having me be active and pushing him.

[mastina]

her reads list makes less than 0 sense in its fabrication.

Is there any particular reads in my readslist you would like to elaborate on making no sense so I can explain them better?

'Cause my reads don't make no sense and actually have a lot in common with yours?

I literally have Luke as town, lean town on Shea, have Andres as town, leaned town on Owen, all of which you have;
I have Datisi as stronger town than you and GuiltyLion as stronger scum than you and Dann as scum since your initial reaction was the correct one, so: where's the reads that make less than zero sense?

I really don't want a VPB king, and I don't really trust him as town at all, so the sudden swing onto VPB is very alarming to me.

Hmm...

VP Baltar [7]:

Datisi, Lukewarm, Andresvmb,

GuiltyLion, Dannflor, Junkochan

, Charloux

I wonder why?

(Scum were supporting the wagon--yes, Junko not scum with VP Baltar, but the wagon had scum definitively on it and pushing for it and advocating for it.)

[Lukewarm]

This game sure does just keep on keeping on.

Skimmed some of what has happened, and see somethings I'll try to respond to later, but did not even have time to read everything

@LLD how do you feel about king TSQ?

[mastina]

VOTE: Junko

Okay so like.

Titus is scum, right?

You’re Scum. I’m not sure I care about interacting with you.

And Andres continues to prove why he's town.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

This game sure does just keep on keeping on.

Skimmed some of what has happened, and see somethings I'll try to respond to later, but did not even have time to read everything

@LLD how do you feel about king TSQ?

Hmmm, I wonder.

He's probably town, so that's good.

[mastina]

- I also just don't actually like the wagon on me. I'm skeptical of all of Junko/PP/Dwlee and they all voted me very lackadaisically and barely engaged with me or my detractors when doing so. I'm not going to encourage that and I have commented multiple times that I didn't like those votes.
I don't know where you're getting an idea that I want to "encourage votes on me", frankly while I know I'd be a good choice for King I really don't want to play my game around securing that for myself and as long as I agree with the King nom then I'm fine with it not being me

Do you feel like those three have been specifically playing around you or something? I'm not clear exactly on what makes you uneasy with your own wagon
are you worried about being pocketed or do you just not want to give slots that you're skeptical on what they want?
it's possible I'm reading into what I want to see with that assumption. I just feel like you're in this very hedgy space where there seems to be this underlying desire to be King or be in a position of power but you aren't really advocating for that at all. And I don't expect you to be playing your whole game around that, I don't think you're the personality type for that at all. But I guess I would expect a little more forthrightedness from you?

For the record--this content is much much closer to the town-Dann I know, but the engagement with GuiltyLion is different from his engagement elsewhere in a way that is incredibly suspicious and I really DO think it's because they're scumbuddies putting on scum theater.

[mastina]

Hmmm, I wonder.
He's probably town, so that's good.

@LLD:

And... Yes. First king being town is still the most important thing in this game IMO.

Lady Lambdadelta:

If the first king being town is the MOST important thing,

What do you think about the players arguing against electing a universally-townread player in favor of less-townread players?

Players who are voting for players that

could

be town, but are not nearly as universally so?
Players who are insisting on not voting for players guaranteed to be town?

her reads list makes less than 0 sense in its fabrication.

Is there any particular reads in my readslist you would like to elaborate on making no sense so I can explain them better?

'Cause my reads don't make no sense and actually have a lot in common with yours?

I literally have Luke as town, lean town on Shea, have Andres as town, leaned town on Owen, all of which you have;
I have Datisi as stronger town than you and GuiltyLion as stronger scum than you and Dann as scum since your initial reaction was the correct one, so: where's the reads that make less than zero sense?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: TSQ

[Andresvmb]

which of them do you think is more likely to be town?

JunkoChan, obviously?

JunkoChan individually looks to me like scum, but:
1: Has many players defending her as town, which makes me question my read there (this is not hypocritical, I should note, as there's a difference between being influenced by the perspective of others, and arguing that the perspective of others means that something must be true. The former is a healthy thing, the latter is a fallacy);
2: Does not fit most of the established play pattern the rest of my scumreads has;
3: Has my scumread be much much weaker for much much weaker reasoning;
4: Was mostly me not seeing why they would be town.

Which, yaknow. Is also something obvious from a play-based perspective, namely that I have been quite consistent about my stances on both of them.

Do I think JunkoChan is town from this?
No, not necessarily--but it was the first thing which made me see JunkoChan as

possible

to be town, by virtue of not being scum with VP Baltar. I would be immediately suspect of her again if VP Baltar wasn't scum since it doesn't look like a town post, it looks like a "not scum with VP Baltar" post, and I'm pretty damn sure VP Baltar is scum, so...

Master of coin is actually a very powerful position because it dictates if the other positions can act or not. If you can't see the scum benefit of that, well..

Mod revealed the role in post 675 AFAIK, and fire was deliberate to be either a warden of the south or master of coin since the beginning.
I see it as a hyped town and not at all scum indicative.

It can be scum indicative if scum knew all the roles beforehand though.

Wait this is fucking huge. I want you to think about that thought for a second and think about it from a different angle--not Firebringer knowing the roles in advance, but rather, what if someone let slip that the scum knew about them in advance?

That is to say:

VP Baltar scumslipped here.

Firebringer was advocating for the position of coinmaster from the getgo--before the roles were known to the town.
VP Baltar argued that Firebringer did this as a scum action, by wanting the power of the coinmaster role for scum.
But the town didn't know the coinmaster power from the getgo.

If the scum did, then scum are more likely to argue a player wanted the position with a scum agenda, because scum have access to information the town does not have, and it affects their perspective on things.

So VP Baltar arguing that Firebringer wanted the position of coinmaster,
Is him scumslipping that scum knew about the power of coinmaster in advance.

This is just wrong btw. VPB didn’t Scum slip in any world. I’m pretty sure the idea that one of the PRs was going to require the use of coins came a lot earlier. And anyone who has seen the show would know there’s inevitably going to be a Master of Coin. Look my head is spinning from the probabilistic argument you just had with GL (and I’m sorry, but I 100% agree with GL), but I also think this is just a massive stretch and wrong. I don’t care to go back and pull all of the relevant posts, but I do know almost for certain that this is wrong.

[Andresvmb]

List of Small Council Positions:

Spoiler: Prince of Dragonstone

The Prince of Dragonstone

The Prince or Princess of Dragonstone is the title held by the Chosen Heir to the King or Queen.

They hold the following abilities:

Heir to the Iron Throne

Ascends to the Iron Throne upon death of the Ruling Monarch.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Hand of the King

Hand of the King

The Hand of the King is Chosen by the King to execute his Will.

They hold the following abilities:

Investigate Loyalty

Once per night you may investigate a player to determine their alignment.

This ability costs [Redacted] Gold Pieces to activate each time.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Lord Commander of the Kingsguard

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard

The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is chosen by the Ruling Monarch to defend their life.

They hold the following abilities:

First of Seven

Each day you must select six players to join you as members of the Kingsguard to defend the King.

Players may not refuse appointment to the Kingsguard.

This number will decrease as the number of players is reduced.

You may not select members of the Small Council or the King to be members of the Kingsguard.

Brotherhood of Arms

Kingsguard members will have access to the Kingsguard PT.

Kingsguard members will notify the mod by pm if they wish to defend the king. The King is immune to nightkills if all members decide to defend the king.

Coup in the Castle

If 50% or more Kingsguard Members decide to overthrow the King - they may murder him at night and install his chosen successor onto the throne.

If all Kingsguard Members agree to overthrow the Monarchy - they may murder him and his successor. The Small Council will be role blocked from committing any actions on this night. New elections will be held on the following day.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Master of Coin

Master of Coin

The Master of Coin is responsible for managing the financial affairs of the Kingdom.

They hold the following abilities:

Keeper of the Purse

Each day you may make investment decisions on behalf of the Crown

You alone will know the contents of the Treasury and the incomes and debts of the Crown.

During each day you may distribute gold to members of the small council for their activities on the following night.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Master of Laws

Master of Laws

The Master of Laws is responsible for enforcing the King's Justice.

They hold the following abilities:

The King's Justice

Each night they may detain a player for questioning.

The player will be role blocked from committing any actions and protected from all killing abilities on that night.

This ability costs [Redacted] Gold Pieces to activate each time.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Master of Whisperers

Master of Whisperers

The Master of Whisperers is responsible for finding the secrets of the King's Enemies.

They hold the following abilities:

The Walls have Ears

Each night they may have a player followed

They will know where the player visited during the night.

This ability costs [Redacted] Gold Pieces to activate each time.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

Spoiler: Grand Maester

Grand Maester

The Grand Maester is responsible for advising the King and providing potions and treatments for ails.

They hold the following abilities:

Healing Salve

Each night they may prepare a healing potion for a player.

This must be done in the first twenty four hours after nightfall.

A player receiving a potion must choose whether to drink it - if they choose to drink it they will be protected from one night-kill attempt on that night.

This ability costs [Redacted] Gold Pieces to activate each time.

Member of the Small Council

Has access to Small Council Meetings.

I mean it’s like Post 3.

[Andresvmb]

Okay if my memory serves, the positions weren’t all revealed to start the game, so the actual post being included as if it was written on November 12 is blowing my mind. But I do very much think that with some logical deduction as to how the game is structured, you could have figured out that there would be some roles that would resemble Council titles in the show, and I’m pretty sure the Hand of the King description included a mention of the need for the use of coins which definitely implied that there was going to be a Master of Coin. That’s how I remember it, but maybe someone correct me here.

[Thestatusquo]

I messaged pooky to ask for its inclusion because I was sick of trying to hunt for all of it by isoing him.

[ProfessorDrapion]

I messaged pooky to ask for its inclusion because I was sick of trying to hunt for all of it by isoing him.

If I vote for you will you give me ability?
I hate vanilla.

[Thestatusquo]

I will give power roles to people who I think are town and would use them well.

[Enchant]

So this game is basically which king could bribe more players.

[Titus]

So this game is basically which king could bribe more players.

That is an elected kingmaker game. I'm legit trolling to get shit useful for me later.

What, you think kids outside the cool club have influence?

[Bellaphant]

Mastina's talking rubbish, right? Like, it's a TV show. Based on medieval Europe. Like, I could have just have easily have posted asking for volunteers to be master of my horse.

FB, you asked why I thought you were town. You seem just the same as in cat's game and I can follow your thoughts.
Datisi asked me why Titus was town, and that's kinda a meta answer tooz and why I was anxious about datisis, but I think I'm just paranoid of datisis because tons of people in the thread are.

I meant a personality vote as a good thing, vp!