House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[UNOwen]

In what world does a scum team comprised of some variety of me/GuiltyLion/Enchant/furtive/Drapion/Roden ever kill Firebringer?

In what world does that happen???

[Roden]

Probably the same world where everyone was approaching Luke with pitchforks and then scum killed him anyway

[mastina]

mastina. if datisi flips town aren't we like still in a very good spot? i don't particularly like it but i don't think it's gamethrowing to confirm the checks and then people can actually focus on the correct (in that world) poe

We still have six unconfirmed slots but are down one of the confirmed slots. I don't want to deal with the hazards involved, either. Scum could get a kill via the kingsguard, scum could if killing one of the double-slot-holders potentially force a scum into the council, etc.

It opens up risks, for zero reward.

If the scum can't do that because Datisi is still alive, well then they can still try but we have the extra buffer.

A Datisi push is literally the most pro-scum thing possible. Bar none.

[mastina]

But you should strongly consider my arguments from a mechanical lens and a "what loses us the game" lens and playing around it.

Yes what loses us the game is eliminating a fucking conftown by eliminating Datisi.

[mastina]

mastina r u literally saying every vote on dats is scum.

No, but every vote sheeping LLD very well could be!

[mastina]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that. Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

And wouldn't ya know it?
Today every vote except for those on the furtiveglance wagon has been a vote on a council member!
I wonder why?

This is also bad logic.

Oh? How so?

The whole council made a decision to leave Datisi open and to protect Firebringer and fireisredsir.
There was no kill last night--meaning scum either didn't shoot anywhere, or shot one of Firebringer or fireisredsir.

Today, every vote has been on one of those three: Datisi (deliberately left open), Firebringer, and fireisredsir.

You're fucking lying if you don't say you see why that's suspect.

[mastina]

Do we have a deal?

No.

Vice-versa, sure--eliminate furtive today and IF he flips town I'll begrudgingly go after Datisi tomorrow. (It's fucking stupid, mind you. But I would.)

But I prefer the option that has a chance of leaving the second half unnecessary.

A Datisi flip is always town and always means we still have to eliminate furtiveglance.
A furtiveglance flip has a high chance of being scum and instantly means we don't need to eliminate Datisi.

[ProfessorDrapion]

I think the number of elims argument is not really that compelling when Duels are a thing

Duels are MORE reason not to eliminate Datisi--not less.

Datisi can on a future day enter a duel and get himself killed if need be. And if we drop down to 9 alive, he can be eliminated regardless of the day.

But the soonest that could happen is tomorrow, IF we have a kill tonight (11 alive), and IF we have 2 duelists die.

We know there's always going to be 11 alive tomorrow. Period. Can't be less because both duels today failed.

That means that there's no reason to eliminate Datisi today and every reason to eliminate...oh, I dunno...one of the six slots which could actually be scum?

See I think wolves be manipulating cause like I think it’s fucking stupid to vote Dat XyLo or day before XyLo cause we could have already resolved everything and be in a way better position before.

Let me explain.
Dat is Town.
Dat has a clear on you, Titus and Lady.
Dat checks me tonight, I am now a clear.
That is 4 clears, if we execute him to avoid people voting later at a time crucial to us we could potentially lose it all.

[ProfessorDrapion]

Do we have a deal?

No.

Vice-versa, sure--eliminate furtive today and IF he flips town I'll begrudgingly go after Datisi tomorrow. (It's fucking stupid, mind you. But I would.)

But I prefer the option that has a chance of leaving the second half unnecessary.

A Datisi flip is always town and always means we still have to eliminate furtiveglance.
A furtiveglance flip has a high chance of being scum and instantly means we don't need to eliminate Datisi.

I’m down with this.
As long as we eliminate Dat tomorrow on the green flip.

VOTE: Furtive

[ProfessorDrapion]

The whole council was saying dats wasn't going to be killed because the lot of you were pushing for a mislim on him and dats agreed with that. Theres no reason for scum to kill dats when u all do it for them, that is why we decided no protection for dats. If scum wanted to clear up paranoia on dats that was okay in our books

And wouldn't ya know it?
Today every vote except for those on the furtiveglance wagon has been a vote on a council member!
I wonder why?

This is also bad logic.

Oh? How so?

The whole council made a decision to leave Datisi open and to protect Firebringer and fireisredsir.
There was no kill last night--meaning scum either didn't shoot anywhere, or shot one of Firebringer or fireisredsir.

Today, every vote has been on one of those three: Datisi (deliberately left open), Firebringer, and fireisredsir.

You're fucking lying if you don't say you see why that's suspect.

Wait is that what happened?
Who shoots the Fires?
Aren’t you the better shot?

[mastina]

Lmao, what is your point Mastina?

My POINT is that Datisi is literally already conftown and by virtue of all of {Datisi, mastina, Titus} already being conftown, eliminating Datisi gives us ZERO NEW INFO.

It tells us what we already fucking knew.

It keeps the mislim pool identical going into night rather than narrowing it.

It opens the door to the scum potentially pulling shenanigans.

None of which are good.

In contrats, an elimination in the pool?

Gives us new info, and it severely limits the mislim pool. The scum could outright shoot Datisi (which DOES THE JOB FOR US) and if not we remove not one but

two

names from the mislim pool (or get guaranteed scum), which mind you can also do the job of conftowning Datisi (would any of you argue Datisi is scum if he flipped scum?), and it removes any chance of the scum pulling some sort of maneuver that gives them a sudden advantage.

[mastina]

I didn't even do shit to you, lmfao.

I tend to take poorly to players I know are town gamethrowing by pushing for the elimination of conftown!

[ProfessorDrapion]

Dat said Lady is Town in case you missed it.

[UNOwen]

I can’t wait to read council pt to find out what sort of insane voodoo magic is being pulled there

[ProfessorDrapion]

Also Mastina, Furtive is voting Firebringer currently not Dat as far as I am aware but just remember that when Furtive flips Green.

[ProfessorDrapion]

I can’t wait to read council pt to find out what sort of insane voodoo magic is being pulled there

Oh fuck.
I can imagine how badly Mastina got pocketed.

[mastina]

Honestly, would we even be having this conversation if the Cop was literally anyone besides Datisi

Datisi the player who has bled town all game (and was literally singlehandedly the reason Dwlee was an elimination because he hard-pushed Dwlee more than any other slot) and was in the council last night to know who was being protected and could've killed LLD last night or killed me or killed Titus or killed a player outside the council?

[mastina]

Datisi is not guaranteed town

Yes, he is--by your own admittance, he's not a player who would deliberately no-kill last night.
So that decision could not originate from him. It would explicitly need to not only originate elsewhere, but ALSO be something he signed off on--because as the cop, he would know the math behind how many players he needs to fake clears on, and would know how bad it is to give the town an extra mislim.

Datisi would need to explicitly sign off on a plan that you explicitly don't think he would make, a plan that would basically guarantee his death by giving the town an extra mislim that he could avoid by just...killing literally anyone not being protected.

it's not paranoia, it's mechanical efficiency and optimal play... and avoids bad worlds we lose in given our current status

You know what's more mechanically efficient than eliminating a slot that was already town by every metric?

Eliminating in the PoE!

[Firebringer]

Probably the same world where everyone was approaching Luke with pitchforks and then scum killed him anyway

im telling u this tracker role has some sort of hidden mechanic that scum don't want town to have.
Maybe it will give me wings like red bull

[mastina]

mastina im ngl. ur ability to flip any good counter argument with ur logic judo that i can't wrap my head around.

It's almost like I'm actually using good logic of my own which so happens to actually be better logic than the wrong logic I am pushing back against!

[mastina]

Is it "LLD Suspected you"? Is that the great sin?

Oh that's definitely a sin because you've PROVABLY not fucking read the Private Topic YOU FUCKING HAVE ACCESS TO. Thanks for the reminder.

[Firebringer]

Also Mastina, Furtive is voting Firebringer currently not Dat as far as I am aware but just remember that when Furtive flips Green.

is this supposed to be an argument of how i am scum or how datisi is scum.
what argument are u trying to make mastina aware

[Firebringer]

mastina while u and i both agree (weird i know) that dats is town.
Theres no way u can legit make an argument that LLD is gamethrowing to vote out a perosn she has no strong read on in which their flip helps her get more info out of the game and in which if town confirms 2 people for herself alignments. I get u townread dats and i agree theres plenty of things i see as town from dats. I think its wrong move to lim dats.

Its not gamethrowing to push for dats lim.
Dats isn't an IC. No matter how much we want him to be.

[mastina]

The plan continues to give us another cop who can do more checks and ICs

And consolidates council power even further rather than keeping it distilled and distributed.

While also not shrinking the pool today.

In contrast, an elimination in the pool can outright win the game--a scum flip clears Datisi; a scum guilty from Datisi clears Datisi; scum killing Datisi clears Datisi. There's literally three ways to have Datisi be cleared

without

risk, without the hazard of consolidated town power.

We already CAN rely on the information we have already.

The lack of kill last night effectively already confirmed no scum on the council.

Killing the council is explicitly doing exactly what the scum wanted.

I've no desire to further the scum wincon, thankyouverymuch.

If I'm wrong about that, killing Datisi now doesn't cost us a thing.

Except the things it costs us like an elimination on scum, a forced kill on a scumspect, keeping the town power diluted rather than consolidated, etc.

[mastina]

IFF you blindly believe Datisi is town

Who said anything about blindness?

It's called all the fucking evidence. I'm not being blind, the people pushing Datisi ignoring the mountain of reasons for him to be town are the ones who are fucking blind.

Datisi is town by play.

Datisi is town by last night.

Datisi has every reason to be town--and no reason to be scum.