Honestly, Ceph also gives me a gut town vibe with his entrance today, and the exact flavor of his apathy. I know pretty factually based on what I know of Ceph that this is almost certainly not proper justification for a townread and I imagine he'll say he's entirely within his scumrange so far.
Amusingly I now know this is 3 for 3. I don't know if that says much about skitter's alignment though.
I guess in some way here's where my paranoia of skitter stems from. When she posted her reads list, my immediate thought was "dang, that's a pretty great reads list that I agree with on essentially everything but Andante" and it made me feel good about the state of the game as being good for town. But there's also a nagging feeling that that reads list could be constructed precisely to capitalize on the way the game was going and push exactly the wrong things for town. Like, if Andante-slot is town, then this reads list essentially sets up the first two mislims of Drew and Andante back-to-back without really being contentious because both of those are the people at the bottom of her reads list that had some broad support (maybe Andante didn't have
broad
support, idk, but I think she was clearly a viable wagon).
Essentially, while that reads list reflected how I feel about all but one player, it's a read list that could potentially have a lot of utility for scum to capitalize on popular wrong reads while also being able to like, gain some distancing cred from a potential CSF or Alianna scumbuddy who is much less likely to be a wagon in the near future. And right now I think both those people are also viably scum.
I think you are the one with the weird take. Why would you ignore day one and go after the lowest post counts instead?
Yes I was asking why I was getting voted yesterday, and in response one person said they were in full survival mode, another said they were big brain, and a third didn't respond to me and then rage quit when they didn't get their way
Yes I agree that Menalque is town. I also think Andante slot, now meg, is probably town.
In post 950, implosion wrote:
Like, if Andante-slot is town, then this reads list essentially sets up the first two mislims of Drew and Andante back-to-back without really being contentious because both of those are the people at the bottom of her reads list that had some broad support (maybe Andante didn't have broad support, idk, but I think she was clearly a viable wagon).
But they opened today by voting Cephrir, so how are they trying to set up Andante?
In post 951, Dunnstral wrote:
I think you are the one with the weird take. Why would you ignore day one and go after the lowest post counts instead?
Yes I was asking why I was getting voted yesterday, and in response one person said they were in full survival mode, another said they were big brain, and a third didn't respond to me and then rage quit when they didn't get their way
Yes I agree that Menalque is town. I also think Andante slot, now meg, is probably town.
I mean... "going after the lowest post counts" is in a very literal sense not ignoring day one. And also I'm not going after "the lowest post counts", I'm going after you. Ceph has a lower post count and I'm not going after him right now. As I described, I had liked your opening and it felt like you dropped off a cliff and unlike Ceph who it feels like has been always present but disconnected, you've been entirely-not-here for days at a time and it feels like there are vast swathes of the game that you never experienced. Ceph has given an aura of having a hard time getting into the game, and the automatic response to that on d1 was to give him space to do so; your entrance gave the impression that you felt engaged by the game given that you had a material read on Alianna but then you vanished into thin air.
In post 950, implosion wrote:
Like, if Andante-slot is town, then this reads list essentially sets up the first two mislims of Drew and Andante back-to-back without really being contentious because both of those are the people at the bottom of her reads list that had some broad support (maybe Andante didn't have broad support, idk, but I think she was clearly a viable wagon).
But they opened today by voting Cephrir, so how are they trying to set up Andante?
First I want to emphasize: I am not saying skitter is doing this. My full read on skitter right now is "idk". I'm trying to explain why I think her play can be consistent with scum; essentially I think her reads list could come from town because I agreed with it broadly and it could come from scum because this sort of utility could come from it.
With that out of the way: 1, my point isn't about today. Scum don't need to follow through on a plan that they made in the middle of day 1 at the start of day 2. But 2, I think this question has a simple answer: Andante has been replaced overnight by someone who has yet to catch up, and claimed a PR between skitter's reads list (at least I think it was afterward, too lazy to check) and now. It'd be pretty wild for skitter to launch into today guns blazing for Andante with those factors in mind.
, is why you decided to make your case 24 hours after Enchant subbed in. Did you ever think about waiting a bit longer to see if Enchant would do something before accusing him? How certain were you that he was going to flip scum?
In post 934, MegAzumarill wrote:
I have read very little so far, anything particularly important someone wants to share with me before the bulk of my catchup?
Hi Meg! I’d say a lot of people had thoughts on Andante one way or the other yesterday and you’re might be interested in that in your catch up? But I don’t anything happened on day 1 that was like clearly more important than all the other things that happened
Seeking replacements for Cat Scratch Fever and GuerillaWoo.
“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,
(mostly because I think the early wagon votes are probably all town provided Enchant scum and if it's Andy+Enchant and none of the likely partners are scum it's probably someone good at scum and also skitter surviving 5 nights would be very sun imo)
I hope that my explaining what I've been doing makes sense and there's a calculated risk there because I know I also look partner-y for attempting to divert the wagon. Skitt -- this is why I asked about diverting when I did, because that was exactly what I was trying to do to see if anyone would join. If I need to die on like D4 if CSF isn't scum that's fine, but I think that provided I'm right on Enchant + Andy then the game is probably won like 80-90% of the time.
Ok, questions about this stuff.
1. Why did you scumread Andyslot? What's your read on the slot now?
2. Is there a reason you proposed flipping in this exact order? It seemed really dependent on your exact solve of Enchant + Andante + 1, which even if I agreed Enchant and Andy were likely to flip scum seemed like a lot of pre-flipping
(1) you’ve played with enchant before then — can you tell me why you think his reaction here to being wagoned is towny for him? How does it differ from his reaction to being wagoned when scum in your opinion?
(2) I’ve read and am digesting your Woo post, thanks for that. I’m now wondering where your head is at on dunn. You’re back to a TL on andy, do you think her case is convincing?
in exchange I'm gonna answer (1). I also had doubts about the slot and was never certain it was going to flip town. But a few things that were on my mind were:
- My pre-existing read on Drew. I also wasn't sure about this, but I townleaned Drew.
- Enchant seemed present; he kept coming in to answer questions or address stuff (even if sometimes his answer was trolling). My impression is that scum Enchant is usually a bit less motivated / posts less.
- My impression is that despite perhaps not liking being scum very much (?) scum!Enchant does at least try to advance scum wincon and help his teammates wherever possible. For example, I remember that in the last run of C9++ he was scum and getting wagoned on Day 1. His teammates asked him to fakeclaim something and he did. So I would have expected to maybe see a serious fakeclaim here if he was scum and that never came
Though I sympathise with what other people have been saying about Enchant meta, I think his alignment was ambiguous and I don't really blame people for wanting to flip there
“There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say, ‘There are two kinds of people in this world: those who say there are two kinds of people in this world,
@implo (just responding to everything here, lmk if i missed anything)
(also @ceph but also going to make a separate post to respond to you a bit more)
i'm going to elaborate a bit on my thought process coming into the day; last night was a bit abbreviated given the lateness of the hour and how tired i was
basically, towards the very end of day1, i started to get an inkling that enchant may be flipping town. basically, once it was decided he was the flip, everything sort of just died - that, to me, indicates that scum were complacent and that they were fine with the flip. despite that, i didn't mind that he was the flip b/c he was a sketchy slot that we were probably not going to resolve in any other way, and would be the center of attention until we flipped him and distracting everything, so figured we might as well get it over with
i dont' 'think that scum were particularly pushing the wagon (they certainly didn't need to be - there was enuf support that i think he would have gotten flipped whehter or not they pushed it, hence the game dying), but i would be pretty surprised if there were *no* scum on-wagon, and that all were off
there were 7 people on wagon, and from my pov, three of them are clear and/or dead (me, vizzy, and enchant), leaving a pool of 4 that i'm p sure contains at least one scum: ceph, alianna, sheep, implosion, in that order (with ceph/alianna being a bit of a tossup tbh, i could vote alianna too if it goes that way)
so that's why i started with ceph (+ i don't have any sort of read on him atm and figured now's the time)
wrt my earlier readslist: andante's slot i think looks better with the enchant townflip (she didn't have to defend th slot so hard if scum) + pr + now there's a replacement so i don't see the point in pushing rn + if i'm being honest a little bit of the scumread may have been playstyle motivated (i.e. that i don't like her playstyle and that i scumread it), so figured now's the time to refresh there
can vote alianna
we flipped encahnt/doctor drew
and while i want to sort csf, i feel like focusing on the wagon is a better idea rn
~
other things:
dont particularly appreciate the 'burden of i think you should be townier by now' , and i'm not expecting town points for the enchant wagon, and i don't think i'm 'leading' anything today
my sketchiness of you is primarily you leading the wagon on town + being in that pool of 4. i dont' actually scumread you but cumulatively the towniness has gone down so you're not as town as before
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
In post 192, Cephrir wrote:
bluh this game is getting serious too fast which i have recently learned is a trait of games i don't get invested in
VOTE: drew why not
In post 534, Cephrir wrote:
i think i will simply not read the first 15 pages
the rest...
don't super want to kill andante right now
didn't like drew rolefishing. baffled by his sub out.
aisa... might be town???
this game is pretty dense/boring. i hate that my boredom is a self fulfilling prophecy (if i'm bored i will not play well enough to be nightkilled)
cat scratch fever probably town
dunnstral has good vibes. i feel not very confident about reading him in general tho
In post 633, implosion wrote:
And also they aren't doing nothing. Dunn had interesting comments on Alianna's reads list. Woo was doing nothing for a while, got prodded, and is now doing things. Not a ton of things, granted, but 407 is content, and many other posts are also game-relevant. Enchant's ISO has no actual content. Read it. It could have content if Enchant plays the game, but Not Playing the Game in the way Enchant is doing right now, is Enchant's scum meta.
you phrase this like enchant and I are the only 2 options for a lim here
In post 642, Andante wrote:
like, you know I’m not getting touched here… but “heyyy enchant!! give your thoughts on this person who isn’t getting limmed… might still lim you, but doesn’t matter what you say”
Invisibility asked a completely normal ass question where did you get this from
In post 645, Enchant wrote:
Main issue that while there provided "Evidence" that my town meta that scum meta that.
I don't have meta. Even if i did, you only provided game which proved YOUR point to condemn me. You was in games where opposite also happened yet you decided to delete them from your memories because they ruin your point.
enchant knows implosion/me are town & not being disingenuous :]
In post 693, Andante wrote:
I mean, wouldn't you want my vote to go towards limming your sr? cause it doesn't seem like people are really agreeing anywhere
That’s an odd thing to say when enchant is at e-2 with no competing wagon
well enchant is town, and I haven't seen a solid case in favor of enchant!scum so sorry to say it, but that wagon just seems like a joke wagon to me.. "oh haha enchant is an easy lim!!"
try reading then? :/
In post 819, Cephrir wrote:
enchant is an open wolf here please take the freebie
Yeet. This may be all the content I can muster today, but yeet.
I have also assigned you a question, dear. Your question is: see question above
It was a case that already existed for me as I held the same opinion about enchant's meta. There was another game where STD made a similar case and was correct, so I thought it was valid. Enchant solidified that by continuing to fuck around and give up, and I thought his pushback on implosion looked fake.
@ceph this is most of your iso, and the entirety of your pusho n the enchant/drew slot
plz show the 'real conviction' that you're referencing.
this slot was your first real vote of the game (going back to 192, after your vizzy rvs vote), and you basically stayed on it the entire game
this doesn't look like real conviction to me, this is actually p prototypical of how i'd expect scum to join this wagon:
- joining early for a vague reason
- never really reasessing
- leaning into the 'it's an easy scum flip!!1!' thing
- basically using implo's push to justify it (i.e. instead of leading it yourself, letting implo do the work for you and using his posts to explain your vote) -> this is like the opposite of real conviction
like if there's scum on the wagon this is what i'd expect their vote/justification to look like
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
yeah I'll get right on it... my past 4 days have been: opening, closing,opening,opening... and today was mostly spent packing... I'm trying my best, and saying what I think based on what I see... shouldn't be an issue...
ok. well like, there's definitely been a case, you can disagree with it but it objectively exists
Not sure why you omitted these relevant posts
Why would I reassess something I find myself agreeing with harder and harder over time. I wasn't even actively in the game long enough to have time to reassess anyway, but I wouldn't have.
I don't know how you can criticize my post about enchant openwolfong without realizing it demonstrates conviction
The only way I could have led the wagon is if I had a time machine to make implosion's case before he did
You are setting impossible and unreasonable bars here. I'm not sure why you want to scumread me here so bad but the reach is real.
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
nqn2- enchant scum in multiball- mostly trolling with a little effort here and there
open 867- i correctly guessed enchant as town after reading ~10 posts
large normal 241- correctly guessed town after 28 posts
ln 242- i got cocky and incorrectly guessed town after 10 posts. after reading a bunch more though this seems to legit not support std's point
micro 1063- guessed town and he was 3p so i'm just gonna ignore this one
micro 1061- accidentally saw he was town here before reading but i would characterize this as effort
open 866- at first i thought this was scum but then he obvtowned incredibly hard so i got there
open 863- obvtown
open 862- guessed town correctly
open 860- obvtown
mini theme 2263- mostly trolling
mini 2265- entirely trolling
2266- starts out trolling but eventually tries. i would have guessed this was town
o859- entirely trolling
mods who don't update the first post make me grumpy
And honestly? The next time I see someone omgus their main detractor for no clear reason and discredit their secondary detractor with verifiable lies, I'm gonna lim them again
ok when i use the word 'conviction' i'm usually looking for some sort of emotional component to that genuine belief, which i wasn't really getting there
so let's replace 'conviction' with your definition of 'genuine belief' and start again
i don't know if those posts display 'genuine belief' either
i believe that std did the work in a prior game, and that you were relying on that + implo making the same case here
what i'm not convinced abt is that you actually believed enchant was scum here vs you just relying on the case that someone else made (that you could also point to someone else making elsewhere) to join the wagon
like what i'm trying to say is: how do i tell the difference between scum-you just joining the wagon b/c someone was pushing it and you have another game you can point to as a reference vs. town-you actually thinking he's flipping scum
you're saying the latter, i'm saying i can see the former
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
In post 971, Cephrir wrote:
And honestly? The next time I see someone omgus their main detractor for no clear reason and discredit their secondary detractor with verifiable lies, I'm gonna lim them again
yea so like i don't actually disagree with this
and like that's a large portion of why i voted him
b/c he was gonna be like that the rest of the game regardless
but *that's an easy position for scum to take and how do i know you *didn't** is my point
'skitter is fucking terrifying' ~ town-bork about scum-me
'Skitter [was] terrifying to play against ngl' ~ scum-bork about town-me
'Going into lylo against scum!skit unprepared is like having someone force feed you dull razor blades. It's painful, and once it starts, you're pretty much dead' ~ NMSA
'Skitter you're a spirit animal's spirit animal' ~ slaxx
now that i've gone back to the other game i see that the bulk of the work was done by me, as you can see above, if that does anything for you
i was enchant's partner in that game, but i believed i was making valid points
i think you're usually good at mafia and the fact you can't find me as town right now makes me think that you are scum, regardless of what words you want to attach to that. i just don't buy that that is where town you wants to vote right now end of sentence
