Mini Normal 2309 | Finished!

[Hu Tao]

@ Hu Tao, okay but why is it *scummy* to post about it? This currently reads like "PoliticalClout is cringe, so I'll vote for him."

As of right now, i believe atleast 1 scum is lurking. Bazuf/ Greeting are rather unreadable thanks to low posts and i am starting to believe atleast one of them is a scum.

I really don't like this, this seems way too confident and somewhat informed. Why are scum lurking, why are Bazuf/Greeting more likely than anyone else with 'low posts'? I like KityKimFanClub's 226

Putting Naerys, Hu Tao, and Bellaphant toward the scum side of things right now.

Apologies for the low content posting, will be back within a few days, currently spending time with my partner while she is up. Hopefully not going to miss a day again, but just in case.

Mod, requesting VLA until Wednesday 2200 UTC +1

I think you missed the part where it was a misunderstanding

[Civil Scum]

Rereading today, I have to say it’s Greeting and KKFC. Will go more in depth when I have time.

[Naerys]

Feeling a little under the weather so I won't elaborate on too much stuff, but I think the response in 267 is pretty good. Do you have games on this site where you feel like you got pocketed by scum?

I wouldnt say pocketed but certainly played.
viewtopic.php?t=81690
Have to admit that the scum played very well there though.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Back now. Honestly I just saw that StD had cross site activity and wanted him to engage in my read on Civil, but that hasn't happened yet.

StD do you still scumread Civil?

[Naerys]

In post 215, Naerys wrote:
As of right now, i believe atleast 1 scum is lurking. Bazuf/ Greeting are rather unreadable thanks to low posts and i am starting to believe atleast one of them is a scum.
I really don't like this, this seems way too confident and somewhat informed. Why are scum lurking, why are Bazuf/Greeting more likely than anyone else with 'low posts'? I like KityKimFanClub's 226

I believe scum might not wish to attract attention to themselves. One more active scum with other in the backround seems legit to me

[Civil Scum]

Alright so Greeting. I have the worst feeling about him on gut but I'll be voting for KKFC since I think the case is a little stronger, and becuase I think
the case on KKFC clearly implicates Naerys and not Greeting.

He has been a touch lurky I think we can all agree, and as I said before I find it very odd that he never weighed in on the policy discussions
since in the mafia PT he linked he advocated for lurking: "I think it would be best if you attracted the least attention possible on Day 1."
His scum partner goes on to lurk to the point that Greeting writes "Yo, Tidus, you need to post once every 36 hours...
I don't think we should be touching Alianna yet. She'll be easier to miseliminate for being overly active...
You should make up some reads. Town may be onto you for not contributing too much."
In other words 'Thanks for taking my advice to heart but you are over doing it!'.

First off there is Post 266. I still maintain that his assertion that my vote was on Bazuf for lurking was
a sign of skimming the game rather than reading. A charge he never denied mind you.

Yeah I just have to say that what Greeting said about me possibly acting confused newbie town really is bizarre to me. The things he pointed to that I said were not alignment indicative in the slightest, so why not just say I could be newbie scum, why apply this extra layer onto my behavior of ‘he could be a competent scum pretending to be newbie’.

Also I’m just going to post my read list and then take a break, I’m being a bit OCD I realize.

I’m order of increasing scumminess with an asterisk indicating a possible failed read on my part, or to say that I think the player seems town but might just be scum playing a very good game (lord knows I’ve been wrong before):

Civil Scum- of course

STD- on meta

Starfire*- just a read

Bellaphant- for reasons previously stated

Naerys- on meta

Random Nurse*- obviously hasn’t given much to work with but was the first person to come back and take me off E-2. Gets plenty of points from me for that.

Iamveryhappy- tough to read but I liked that he made note that my asking about the mafia scum tag under my name seemed a little paranoid. I would argue WIFOM since as scum I wouldn’t draw attention to myself in this way, but I’m glad he mentioned it cause it seemed like an obvious question to be asking.

Hu Tao- really unsure about them so far but haven’t done anything particularly scummy.

Political Clout- I initially thought that his banter with Starfire seemed like genuine scum hunting, but personally I am able to go after others pretty hard and pretty convincingly when I’m scum, and I’m sure many people here can so I’m taking those towny points away.

KKFC- He seems pro town at times but I’m struggling to put much faith in some of his arguments thus far.

Bob- for reasons stated (see my ISO)

Greetings- for reasons stated

Bazuf- Bazuf top scum and due for a prod shortly if I’m not mistaken.

So, let me get this straight.

You are very sure that

Bazuf

is mafia because he is a low poster and that I am scum for defending him, even though I never even mentioned him in my posts?

I also don't see an asterisk near those reads, does that mean that you are absolutely certain of them?

Now the exchange that really stood out to me when I reread was Post 240.

So your out of RVS now. As the game stands where do you feel your actual vote would be most placed. Even if you strongest reads is null scum.

I’m in no rush to decide my vote yet. What I can say as of now is that I have weak townreads on

KatyKimFanClub

and

iamveryhappy

.

This first sentence to me is absolutely dripping with a level of caution that townies just don't need to have. Like Bob is even saying even if it's a very
weak read. I also find his notions about his vote strange... I mean do you only have one vote per D-1? Does it go there and stay?

Greeting is a very calculating and opportunistic scum player and this caution could also be interepretated as not wanting to shoe-horn himself into anything
before he decides which way the wind is blowing.

So your out of RVS now. As the game stands where do you feel your actual vote would be most placed. Even if you strongest reads is null scum.

I’m in no rush to decide my vote yet. What I can say as of now is that I have weak townreads on

KatyKimFanClub

and

iamveryhappy

.

How come?

I feel like their efforts to solve the game are genuine.

I also didn't like this Post 246. Very generic, and I mean, iamveryhappy's efforts have seemed genuine? The guy setup solving and
trying to post at the top of each page? Pass me the crack pipe bro.

Onto KKFC.

[Civil Scum]

Alright here was some of KKFC's reasoning for voting for Naerys given in Post 224.

Why does Naerys still think something that she admits in 214 she misinterpreted is weird?

Please explain to me why you still think my post about Civil is weird please.

and then in Post 226 where KKFC votes for Naerys.

Actually I'm going to write a little more than that because there's something really bothering me about 214/215.

214 lacks conviction. At first, I read Naerys as someone who is just kind of paranoid and making a readslist a little too early into the game, but actually the post seems weirdly calculated to suspect, or at least have harbor fears about, a lot more than three people in a game where we've already talked about how there's probably three scum.

Naerys mentions:

Bazuf for low post count
Greeting for low post count
StD for low effort posting
Hu Tao for low effort posting

as well as tangential comments like "confused gut feelings" for iavh or "feels weird" about me for a post that she admittedly misinterpreted.

When we break down her main suspicions, it looks to me like Naerys is basically scumreading any sort of low effort or low activity posting, which is why I'm confused as to why Naerys left Hu Tao and RN out of her scumpool in 215. They are more or less guilty of doing the same thing as Bazuf and Greeting. Is there enough of a distinction between low post count and low effort in posts for Naerys to say "there's at least one scum in Bazuf/Greeting" this early into the game? I'm not sure personally because both could be interpreted as lurking.

Also, I think it bothers me that Naerys thought that Civil's low-activity-policy plan was suspicious in 48 and that's basically exactly what she's doing with her vote right now? I don't think it's a slip, but it doesn't add up to me.

VOTE: Naerys

Now, I didn't particularly care for the read at the time, but since then there has been some agreement that Naerys play seems off, lacking conviction, confused, 'just vibing', etc.

STD votes for Naerys in Post 288.

In Post 298 KKFC unvotes Naerys.

Let's take a look why and see if we believe him.

UNVOTE: Naerys

Feeling a little under the weather so I won't elaborate on too much stuff, but I think the response in 267 is pretty good. Do you have games on this site where you feel like you got pocketed by scum?

---

A little wary of Civil Scum's townread on RN, and I'm also confused (genuinely, not trying to throw shade under the guise of being confused) about the discoure around the early wagon on Civil Scum.

To me, he was never under any pressure of being eliminated. I think in my last 2 completed Newbie games we had players put to E-1 by page 2 with no actual threat of hammering. So, any retroactive analysis that suggests such seems weird to me (not sure if there was any).

The players on the wagon were Bazuf, Starfire, Random Nurse, Bellaphant. Bazuf was the first vote, but the only one of the four who Civil Scum scumreads? In fact he townreads the others. So why was he so upset over his wagon if everyone who contributed to it after the first vote was town?

I could be misreading this.

So KKFC cites 267 as the reason for his unvote, let's take a look at 267 and ask ourselves if it really could have allayed KKFC's suspicions.

Why does Naerys still think something that she admits in 214 she misinterpreted is weird?

Please explain to me why you still think my post about Civil is weird please.

As i said before i posted my read list, i was about to reread. And in ISO your post simply looks weird to me, Katy.

214 lacks conviction. At first, I read Naerys as someone who is just kind of paranoid and making a readslist a little too early into the game, but actually the post seems weirdly calculated to suspect, or at least have harbor fears about, a lot more than three people in a game where we've already talked about how there's probably three scum.

I dont think i am being as paranoid as in my previous games. And i came to conclusion its better to express my own opinions, even if they are wrong. What i actually have fear from, is being lead by a scum like a useful fool. I dont want that, thank you very much.

I simply don't believe that this was enough to change KKFC's mind. I haven't played with KKFC, but I've read a little bit of his games, and he's not exactly one to let a point go.
Yet here, when he is asking about why Naerys thought his post about me was weird, he apparently accepted whole-heartedly the very convincing explanation 'I don't know, your post simply looks weird to me.'

And the rest of 267? What is even there? A weak meta defense claim? Saying she is afraid of being used by scum?

I am baffled as to how this post convinced KKFC to unvote, since I don't think it addressed any of his stated concerns about Naerys.

I propose that he unvoted because STD just voted for Naerys and he wanted to take some of the wind out of the sails.

[Civil Scum]

Almost forgot.

Post 304

Oh honestly I thought for a second this was 11p and 4 votes were E-2, hence my not including Greetings in your vote count. That's my bad and explains a lot more honestly.

Before I go to bed, I do just want to say that your read on Bazuf just seems to be miscalibrated for a couple of reasons.

Bazuf knows you aren't getting hammered because he's just played in two Newbie games where people got put at E-1 basically by page 2 and neither got hammered, and there was a lot of discourse how no one is hammering from those spots.

This, and my misunderstanding of the vote count on you is why I was skeptical of your "lamist, weird voting logic" reasoning for being suspicious of Bazuf.

If not knowing how many players are in a game by Post 304 isn't a sing of skimming, I don't know what is.

VOTE: KKFC [/]

[KatyKimFanClub]

Now, I didn't particularly care for the read at the time, but since then there has been some agreement that Naerys play seems off, lacking conviction, confused, 'just vibing', etc.

Do you not feel like you're just moving the goalposts constantly with me? Like originally you hated the post and now you're whatever with it but there's other stuff wrong with me. I feel like you're just tunneling random people and trying to make cases on them that don't make sense.

I simply don't believe that this was enough to change KKFC's mind. I haven't played with KKFC, but I've read a little bit of his games, and he's not exactly one to let a point go.
Yet here, when he is asking about why Naerys thought his post about me was weird, he apparently accepted whole-heartedly the very convincing explanation 'I don't know, your post simply looks weird to me.'

I'm not really sure how you got the impression that the post totally allayed my suspicions, but whatever. Like you're clearly just reading whatever you want from my slot which is just confusing. Here are some quotes from my last town game where I change my mind on something.

Doubting my read on Jason now. Will comment more on why after a bit.

2) Yes, so I understand why you might not post your own reads. I reread 2125, and this is your first post from there.

That was because i had replaced in, and did actually have to give a few thoughts as i hadn't in the past at all, whereas that isn't the case this game. (not to mention i do tend to give thoughts as we go, even if I'm not literally saying X is town, Y is scum.)

Fair response here too. I think I'll admit defeat (as in I've changed my mind here) too.

If anything, I'm accused of being too indecisive this game as town, and while I'm trying to get better at it, I definitely change my reads pretty often because I often see people's responses to me too truthfully. I'm not sure how you can say you've read my previous games and come to the conclusion that you have. Seriously, that meta read on me is literally the exact opposite of my playstyle, and I'm so confused what your endgame is here. A player in this game, PC, literally accused me of not sticking to my reads and gave me advice on it last game.

vote delta not vote delta, vote snix not vote snix. You fence sitting is actually terrible if you're town since that's what scum are going to use to push you. it's better to commit to a play even if you're wrong on who is scum. you make the game easier for yourself if you vote town and you almost win the game if you vote scum. don't worry about getting it wrong just go with your gut. if your gut is wrong just say hey in this situation it was really hard for me to parse through the game with x y and z happening, but next time I'm in a similar situation I'll have better game play and I should consider this or that instead.

Like, to summarize my point, what the fuck are you doing? You say things like you've read my games and that I never change my mind as town and then I think about my own playstyle and not only is that patently false it's just so verifiably false?

I trust the response from Naerys because it's not a good enough one to have been coached by a partner and because it's actually a response that she later backed with evidence. If she didn't come back with a game thread where she got pocketed, then my suspicions would have returned.

Similarly, for my post where I forgot the number of people in the game,

I literally had a conversation with you where I pointed out that most of the 13 player games in the mini normal archives had 3 scum, I also have clearly been reading the thread the entire game based off of my activity and response times

.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Like I'm actually so fucking baffled by your reads this game, and not just for me. Can someone else please do a sanity check if what I'm saying makes sense?

[Civil Scum]

I'm not really sure how you got the impression that the post totally allayed my suspicions, but whatever.
[\quote]

I believe it was when you said as much and then unvoted.

I’ll look into your meta some more as I believe strongly in it but I’m still baffled by your dropping Naerys.

[KatyKimFanClub]

14: expresses policy elimination on lurkers
104: votes Naerys for tortured language in a post
132: suspicious of Bob for posting quickly after getting quoted and comments about wagon.
162: case against Bazuf (emoji, unconcerned about E-2 RVS, scumreading someone Civil himself townreads, LAMIST, thinks Bazuf case against gut reads is bad)
172: shades PC
184: says vote on PC or Hu Tao might be productive
243: original scumread on me.

Claims he doesn't think it's scummy for people to lack conviction about their reads.

248: scumreads Greeting for giving towncred for newbieposting, also a few other interactions that I'm not going to list

Note at this point chronologically that he hasn't FOS-ed Random Nurse, who at that point has been tied for the least active player in the game.

373: suspects PC paranoia to be LAMIST or at least self-serving. Notice that he already made six suspects in 307 SO AT THIS POINT HE PRESUMABLY SCUMREADS OR IS ABOUT TO MAKE A CASE FOR SCUMREADING OVER HALF OF THE GAME.

Other notable posts that are scummy:

Townreads Naerys (278) AFTER my interaction with her. Interacts with me about that post too. Later claims that I am bussing in 381. This chronology proves to me that you are literally just looking for random evidence to confirm your reads. You had everything in front of you when you were talking to me yesterday about my interactions with Naerys, and you only came back later with a read you can't possibly justify like "there's no way KKFC is flipping his read on Naerys there". This isn't a statement you can prove at all, and honestly I don't know where it comes from because I've already given you two examples from one game where I flip reads in an indecisive way as town. You aren't actually gathering evidence or accumulating to a read, you are just throwing reads out randomly and going back later and looking for scraps to justify it. This is why you have really bullshit evidence like Bazuf's use of emojis, or my completely bogus town meta that makes no sense. At best, this is tunneling, at worst, it's just straight up anti-town behavior as scum.

You also claimed I am skimming threads despite a conversation with me where I literally look through mini archives and telling him that probably we have 3 scum. I don't explicitly say that this game has 13 players, but considering three of the last four Mini Normals with 11 players have had 2 scum players (Mini Normal 2107 11 players 2 scum, Mini Normal 2101 11 players 2 scum, Mini Normal 2066 11 players 3 scum, Mini Normal 2033 11 players 2 scum) it would make no sense for me to say that there's three scum if I think there are 11 players unless you think I slipped.

Later posts 342 where he claims Hu Tao (posted 4 times about two hours before 342) is lurking.

253: "just a read" townread on Starfire, townreads RN for putting him out of E-2 despite RN not being active the entire game. Strangely, basically no one interacts with these two reads.

Once again, I'm not asking for consistency, but I think you might be projecting when you claim things like I'm skimming threads because you haven't exactly shown great comprehension either.

At this point, there's only two possible conclusions

1) You're scum who is trying to add as much noise as possible to try to force a policy vote on a town inactive at the end of the day.

2) (small but decent possibility) you are just a huge miscalibrated town player, which doesn't make you the worst policy vote today. If you survive, scum will just let you live until endgame at which point you will lose town this game.

I was trying to be nice originally when you brought up things like policy'ing inactive players because I figured you were coming from an old meta, but at this point it's time to rip off the bandaid and just eliminate you. You're anti-town.

VOTE: Civil Scum

[Civil Scum]

Just to be clear, I was shading Hu Tao a bit for active lurking.

If you count Naerys, Bazuf, and Greeting, you’re the fourth player I’ve gone after. I don’t think that qualifies as tunneling at least in the way I understand the term.

Suggesting I’m more anti town than RN or Bazuf at this point? Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll still vote to eliminate any of the less active players if no one else thinks my scum reads have any merit.

Also, as PC said, being too flimsy on your reads can be used to push you since it is a bit scummy. You can hardly blame me for that.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Suggesting I’m more anti town than RN or Bazuf at this point? Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll still vote to eliminate any of the less active players if no one else thinks my scum reads have any merit.

Then why is your vote on me? Push for a wagon on an inactive and hope it gets them to stop lurking.

Also, as PC said,

being too flimsy on your reads can be used to push you since it is a bit scummy

. You can hardly blame me for that.

How does that make sense at all given you said this to me earlier?

I gotta be honest, unlike Greeting, I don’t love this post.

I don’t think it’s scummy at all to lack conviction about your reads

.

Like pick one, but don't push me for both. You originally pushed on me for saying it was scummy for Naerys to not sound convinced of her own reads. You then claimed my meta was that I don't change my reads. After I showed you that wasn't the case, you now are saying that being too flimsy on my reads is actually scummy. Either way, that quote is from a game where PC hard townread me and was trying to give me advice. He never actually scumread me for that indecisiveness.

This is what I'm talking about. You say "Look this is weird, because KKFC never changes his reads as town and now he did". And when I give you evidence from a game where I did, you say "well, actually being really flimsy is a bit scummy, so you can't blame for reading that". DESPITE YOU LITERALLY SAYING EARLIER THAT YOU THOUGHT A POST OF MINE WAS SCUMMY FOR PUSHING SOMEONE FOR BEING FLIMSY. Not to mention, you've changed your reads more than me this game, so why exactly was that a piece of evidence in your push on me in the first place?

You make no sense man.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Suggesting I’m more anti town than RN or Bazuf at this point? Don’t be ridiculous. I’ll still vote to eliminate any of the less active players if no one else thinks my scum reads have any merit.

You townread RN earlier.

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you count Naerys, Bazuf, and Greeting, you’re the fourth player I’ve gone after. I don’t think that qualifies as tunneling at least in the way I understand the term.

Why would I not count Bob or Hu Tao? You listed them as your #1 and #3 suspects in 307. Why are you lying about how many people you've tunneled on this game? Are you skimming the thread? Skimming is scum indicative.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You don't even know how many people you've listed as scum? Clearly caught scum who is skimming.

[KatyKimFanClub]

To recap, your case on me is now that you think it's out of my own meta to change my read on someone. I showed you from my meta that that isn't the case. Your rebuttal is now that it looks scummy for someone to change their reads, despite you changing your reads many more times than me this game and your earlier statement that flimsy reads isn't scum indicative. And you're still voting for me.

[Civil Scum]

Flimsy and lacking conviction are not the same thing and it’s about degrees and the players and their reasoning and the stage of the game.

Bob and Hu Tao were never that high for me you have the list upside down.

Also I didn’t say you don’t change your mind, I said you sometimes don’t let a point go. And you dropped a point with Naerys suddenly it seemed to me. I’ve been skimming meta since I’m looking at everyone I’ll admit, my time is not unlimited.

[Civil Scum]

Then why is your vote on me? Push for a wagon on an inactive and hope it gets them to stop lurking.

Well, one could argue I did do this and you inexplicably turned into their lawyer.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Flimsy and lacking conviction are not the same thing and it’s about degrees and the players and their reasoning and the stage of the game.

more vagueness for you to hide your reads behind

Bob and Hu Tao were never that high for me you have the list upside down.

actually makes more sense now. Still, I don't get how you have a list of six people with an additional scumread given after and say that you've only "gone after" four players?

Also I didn’t say you don’t change your mind, I said you sometimes don’t let a point go. And you dropped a point with Naerys suddenly it seemed to me. I’ve been skimming meta since I’m looking at everyone I’ll admit, my time is not unlimited.

How is my example with Naerys different than the one with Jason? That's why I provided the quote. I made a read, was given more evidence, then changed my mind.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well, one could argue I did do this and you inexplicably turned into their lawyer.

You didn't push on him for being inactive you made a bad meta argument based on things like emojis. Wagon the other one see if you stop you.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I haven't said this out loud but based on my questioning it's been implied. I have no issue with anyone, you included, ever pushing people as long as I think it's consistent and coming from a reasonable place. If it's not, then I have no confidence in the logic of genuine belief behind the vote.

Your reads on me and Bazuf made no sense to me, particularly the meta portions of both arguments, which is why I've been pushing against them.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Well, one could argue I did do this and you inexplicably turned into their lawyer.

You didn't push on him for being inactive you made a bad meta argument based on things like emojis. Wagon the other one see if you stop you.

Question since I sense things calming down. Do you think it's inexplicable to try to push someone away from a bad read? Surely you see the merit in my original points about Bazuf (that he has a strong town meta indicative post, that he uses emojis, that he pushes on people early in games). Sure, we disagreed about whether it was appropriate for him to give the caveat, but if you're me and you read someone whose push has a lot of points that don't deserve merit, you would speak up right?

[Civil Scum]

How is my example with Naerys different than the one with Jason? That's why I provided the quote. I made a read, was given more evidence, then changed my mind.

The overall example is very similar I will admit and I’ll take it into consideration.

More specific to letting a point go with Naerys was you asking what she thought was weird about a post of yours and then accepting her just repeating that it was weird. I wasn’t speaking on that issue in the wider sense of letting your whole read go.