Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Enchant]

Yeah, I’m happy with Marci today.

I think we should line up Marci to E-2 (like how they are now), get Torture at 6, with someone who plans to hammer Marci on it, Trading Post at 4.

Put Marci to E-1, then have the Marci Hammerer move from Torture to Trading Post to get them equal to 5, and then hammer.

I fail to see reason to do that. Doing things for sake of doing things.

ahhh, i seee what yer sayin, ya wannna see the ol peek a roo, the bing bop polly wop, the shallow of my hallows.

well, ill let ya drink a swig of milk, thats for sure, i get ya

ya a wild one

[Flavor Leaf]

the apple of my eye

[biancospino]

Votecount 2-XI

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to hammer.

flavor

Spoiler:

Excerpt from the Official Hagiography of the Overseer, page 56

execution votes

marcistar (5):

Flavor Leaf (1817), Cat Scratch Fever (1818), Aureal (1826), camelCasedSnivy (1867), Hu Tao (1882)

Deal With The Devil (2):

RCEnigma (1524), Enchant (1705)

SirCakez (1):

meowmeow (1720)

camelCasedSnivy (1):

Merlyn (1760)

Aureal (1):

SirCakez (1903)

Not voting (2):

Deal With The Devil, marcistar

projects votes

Torture (6):

SirCakez (1470), Cat Scratch Fever (1471), Merlyn (1495), Flavor Leaf (1497), Deal With The Devil (1580), Hu Tao (1684)

Trading Outpost (3):

, Enchant (1504), meowmeow (1505), camelCasedSnivy (1571)

Guildhall (1):

Aureal (1474)

Not voting (2):

RCEnigma, marcistar

notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-08-19 11:00:00).
  
• RCEnigma is V/LA until Wednesday.

[RCEnigma]

I really really hope you guys don’t let FL talk the torture circle into being outside him or myself. Or I would have wasted a whole day not sorting FL.

You say this and I like it but I also notice that you're not helping to ensure it by voting for anything

I’m afraid of poisoning the well if I were included in a council to influence the decision. I’m also worried about being the target and getting hit with the 25% but that’s not something in my control anyway.

The downside is I get hit with the 25% and FL bases the game around that…it would be disastrous for town but if he is town he likely gets NK’ed at some point and if he’s scum then it wouldn’t have mattered in the first place.

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project. Which looks like it’s going to be trading post.

[Enchant]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

[RCEnigma]

I’d go to bat for Marci or Meow today, especially learning meow is Ausuka I’ll double down even harder.

can i ask why?

I’m a sucker for slots that solidify town without commanding town to view the game the way they do. And day 1 I feel like town just kind of formed around you if that makes sense.

And now that I know you are Ausuka I know we have played a fair amount of games as same or opposite alignments in different configurations. I think I have a fair enough grasp on your scum playstyle (which could have changed in the last year for sure) but I think as scum you would be more comfortable getting yourself townread from a more passive position, over having the game rotate around you.

The caveat being that FL has kind of pushed the game that way over you bringing the gamestate to that position. Which is something to think about but not at the forefront of my sorting right now. More like something to consider after FL’s alignment is confirmed.

[RCEnigma]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

[RCEnigma]

wait i just had a fucking thought

what if scum didnt want us to use sac because it doesnt give them money?

The way I understood the rule was that scum get some portion of the money we spend and it made sacrifice a way better option in my head than just using it for the kill + cash.

[RCEnigma]

i think marriage is arguably better since it doesn't take an extra phase to complete if the target is scum, although in practice i don't like the idea of deciding the lim for a day in advance at this stage. it might be more of a late game option

it's hard for me to imagine a power that is free *doesn't* have some sort of drawback on the other side especially since it is like really better than a lot of the other powers which do cost money in a vacuum but i guess i don't know that! i'd be willing to listen to an argument to use sacrifice over trding post today

If it funds scum it will still do so it’s just delayed, 0$ for the day it’s used and then whatever amount they get out of the extra 20k that it gives town the following day. Not that we have to use the full amount but if the options are good enough we likely will.

[RCEnigma]

i did! i think your comment on rce sort of resonated with me since i feel similarly, which is what prompted me to ask about him here. you just gave aureal a 'n' and i don't know like if you were just sick of playing at that point, but like i think aureal is an interesting slot with a relatively high probability to be scum so i would like to hear your thoughts there. same with cakez really. and i guess devil but i know any push there or even skepticism of their posts will just result in fl talking about how scum are breaking up the supertownbloc so if devil is scum they might have to come later

i think if people like scumread your posts you don't need to like stop reading that player, i think for most people reads are fluid and it's common for people to make reads that other ppl maybe don't like? fl and possibly drew seem to think my read on devil sucks and isn't coming from town but it's whatever! i stand by it

i think cakez's posts, like, after you stopped talking about that read are interesting and talked about them in 1891

So a couple thoughts here. I stand with you on the drew read. Not really sure how I feel about cakes.

But I do know for the most part FL’s pushes have been on mostly slots I consider town (myself, Marci, meow, Merlyn is like….on the fringe of town) and the aureal push was extremely brief.

I do believe FL to be town right now. So where does that point to me if FL is town making pushes on majority town. Well probably his town reads or specifically the slots avoiding confrontation with him and letting him lead wrong pushes. (Drew, snivy) maybe not both. But the rest of the slots outside of this box are pretty inactive or uninvolved in the gamestate. Maybe by choice but in good faith I’ll just say they are not active.

And that kind of lines up with why I feel like my name is being thrown around as scummy despite FL slowly coming around on his first read. Scum still need avenues. I become an obstacle if they flip one of my townreads and I become that much harder to miselim, so it has to start now in case they need to flip to me, who isn’t being hard defended by anyone and they still get the option of pushing down my townreads behind FL or just take FL out of the equation and use his reads instead of his voice.

I want to go back and reread the mini push on Aureal because I don’t think they really had anyone outwardly advocating for their towniness but the heat died off anyway and hasn’t come back, I think that’s interesting but idk in what way yet. But I did skim a little past it originally so I don’t know if I have the whole story so no big conclusions.

[RCEnigma]

Alright, I just wrote 6k+ words since last night. I am drained.

RCE's one of my Mafiascum besties for a while, so I'm always hesitant to fade there early games.

Bad reasoning, especially cuz I didnt like there Day 1, and I do see scum potential in there Day 2 trying to turn to town read me, but like, if it's a scum play, it's doing exactly what they wanted it to do with me getting a little pocketed after scum reading them heavily.

and if they're town, then they're reconsidering their read on me, and starting to see I'm townie. Like I like the reasons theyve stated for why I'm townie, but it could just be ego bumping me.

I'm just decently comfortable solving RCE with more flips, and if I die, it doesn't really matter too much because they wont be protected that heavily imo.

Posts like this are really the ones that make me question FL’s alignment because regardless of either of our alignments we are always playing the guessing game of how to get into the others head.

But it’s also a pivot point and I don’t know what to make of it.

Like, yes I would be figuring out how to approach and evolve my read on you as either alignment. But now I have to worry about, is engaging with you going to lead to you saying I did so just because I’m scum somewhere down the line?

It gets a pass for today because of pending town actions in any case.

[RCEnigma]

the fact that CSF and Hu Tao are on the wagon makes me feel really good about it. inb4 theyre scum rollin me, but i still feel good right now lol

I won’t be in the council after the flip so thoughts on the wagon composition in the case Marci goes through and flips town?

[RCEnigma]

i noted that in my post! i just wanted a bit more detail out of the read? like, what posts are you referring to that you think scum meow wouldn't write

I really don't have the energy to try to go back and figure this sort of thing at the moment, sorry. I don't know what 'scum meow' would write, but repeatedly thinking the same way is a pretty typical way to gain a townread on someone and I think I've noted several points where this has been the case.

and i mean idk with the marci stuff don't you think scum fl could have been genuinely frustrated with marci? like i don't think he was like going out of his way to appeal to emotion in that situation but i've seen before that he can get heated as scum and like... i def understand how you could townlean that sequence for fl but i don't get such a high level of confidence?

If you have specific examples I'll be happy to take a look. I said before that if it's not true then people here who are more familiar with him ought to be able to disprove it, so feel free to show me. I'm inclined to believe it because I feel like if I ever manage to get a scum PM again, Righteous Anger Mode is not something I'm going to really be able to use there so I can understand that someone else doesn't do that.

Do you expect that FL would be willing to bus a teammate here to get out of the torture action being used on him?

If someone offered to be bussed then yes. FL wouldn’t make it his primary goal but if someone volunteered to make that play he definitely would.

[Enchant]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

You know that you can revote, correct?

[Enchant]

Imo if i know something about balance, my prediction of mafia income something like this:

Base Income for every day/night/phase+percentage of spent money+Bonuses for tricking town (Condemner ability for example)+Anything really.

[meowmeow]

Why do you want to organize the project votes (Torture and Trading Outpost) that way?

- Alianna

We just already have a lot on Torture, and I like the people on the Torture council as is.

It doesn’t have to be that way, but it just seemed like the easiest way to automatically get it, because in theory, Marci Scum could mess with it last minute and mess it all up.

i'm not really sure what scum marci is able to do here? like regardless the torture and trading post go through, the only difference is who you want on the torture council i guess but i think the outcome should be predetermined

i'm fine with being the target if we lim marci and she flips scum

[meowmeow]

i noted that in my post! i just wanted a bit more detail out of the read? like, what posts are you referring to that you think scum meow wouldn't write

I really don't have the energy to try to go back and figure this sort of thing at the moment, sorry. I don't know what 'scum meow' would write, but repeatedly thinking the same way is a pretty typical way to gain a townread on someone and I think I've noted several points where this has been the case.

and i mean idk with the marci stuff don't you think scum fl could have been genuinely frustrated with marci? like i don't think he was like going out of his way to appeal to emotion in that situation but i've seen before that he can get heated as scum and like... i def understand how you could townlean that sequence for fl but i don't get such a high level of confidence?

If you have specific examples I'll be happy to take a look. I said before that if it's not true then people here who are more familiar with him ought to be able to disprove it, so feel free to show me. I'm inclined to believe it because I feel like if I ever manage to get a scum PM again, Righteous Anger Mode is not something I'm going to really be able to use there so I can understand that someone else doesn't do that.

Do you expect that FL would be willing to bus a teammate here to get out of the torture action being used on him?

that's fine, you don't have to do it right now although i'd appreciate it if you did it at some point today? i'm just trying to like see if your reads are real to have. because i think townreading meow and fl is like an intuitive approach for scum to take, but if you explain your thought process and it makes total sense for town aureal to have the same view then it's not as scummy?

main thing that came to mind was this; i mean idk if that counts as ate in the sense i'm pretty sure he was like actually mad or whatever but i think if he's scum he can still get frustrated as marci or something. i'm not really sure how to think about this - it's intuitive to me that scum players feel things and are likely to get angry, eg if they're pushing a townie and they think that townie is being unfairly townread for doing nothing, but i'm not sure how to ask about your perspective in an effective way

i think fl would be willing to do that personally. from my experience with him, he likes playing as a team but is totally cool with bussing if it's convenient to winning - i've seen him do it. but if he's scum and bussing marcistar, that's like, uh cool i guess? i don't really think that's what's going on. i would have thought he maybe had an option open - you or maybe merlyn or rce? - if scum but then decided not to go ahead with it. i think if fl is scum, the thought process is people will want to torture him anyway and it's best to lean into it. and when the torture fails he's able to say he's town anyway and scum are taking advantage of it? this could also just be town fl though, while the push on marcistar is easy i don't think it's something town wouldn't do either

[meowmeow]

I’d go to bat for Marci or Meow today, especially learning meow is Ausuka I’ll double down even harder.

can i ask why?

I’m a sucker for slots that solidify town without commanding town to view the game the way they do. And day 1 I feel like town just kind of formed around you if that makes sense.

And now that I know you are Ausuka I know we have played a fair amount of games as same or opposite alignments in different configurations. I think I have a fair enough grasp on your scum playstyle (which could have changed in the last year for sure) but I think as scum you would be more comfortable getting yourself townread from a more passive position, over having the game rotate around you.

The caveat being that FL has kind of pushed the game that way over you bringing the gamestate to that position. Which is something to think about but not at the forefront of my sorting right now. More like something to consider after FL’s alignment is confirmed.

yeah i mean that totally makes sense from a perspective of your experience with me, i'm more so wondering how the things other people have said about my scum game in this thread affects your view?

i agree i wouldn't say my play has tried to make the game revolve around me, i think it's usually better when the games don't resolve around specific slots in any case

[meowmeow]

i think marriage is arguably better since it doesn't take an extra phase to complete if the target is scum, although in practice i don't like the idea of deciding the lim for a day in advance at this stage. it might be more of a late game option

it's hard for me to imagine a power that is free *doesn't* have some sort of drawback on the other side especially since it is like really better than a lot of the other powers which do cost money in a vacuum but i guess i don't know that! i'd be willing to listen to an argument to use sacrifice over trding post today

If it funds scum it will still do so it’s just delayed, 0$ for the day it’s used and then whatever amount they get out of the extra 20k that it gives town the following day. Not that we have to use the full amount but if the options are good enough we likely will.

i mean if it hits scum they get 0 and it's a guilty

idk the whole thing feels odd to me but i guess it's not impossible that there's no 'secret downside' to it?

[RCEnigma]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

You know that you can revote, correct?

Sure, why does that matter tho?

[RCEnigma]

I’d go to bat for Marci or Meow today, especially learning meow is Ausuka I’ll double down even harder.

can i ask why?

I’m a sucker for slots that solidify town without commanding town to view the game the way they do. And day 1 I feel like town just kind of formed around you if that makes sense.

And now that I know you are Ausuka I know we have played a fair amount of games as same or opposite alignments in different configurations. I think I have a fair enough grasp on your scum playstyle (which could have changed in the last year for sure) but I think as scum you would be more comfortable getting yourself townread from a more passive position, over having the game rotate around you.

The caveat being that FL has kind of pushed the game that way over you bringing the gamestate to that position. Which is something to think about but not at the forefront of my sorting right now. More like something to consider after FL’s alignment is confirmed.

yeah i mean that totally makes sense from a perspective of your experience with me, i'm more so wondering how the things other people have said about my scum game in this thread affects your view?

i agree i wouldn't say my play has tried to make the game revolve around me, i think it's usually better when the games don't resolve around specific slots in any case

I’m not going to go off other players impression of your scum game when I have my own and I know my alignment but not theirs. So Idk what exactly you are looking for out of that question.

Now that I know your identity. If I didn’t then I would maybe lean a little harder into someone else’s meta read but even then I’m not keen on using it for whatever game I’m in specifically to base a read around, more like supplement a read.

But that’s just in general.

[RCEnigma]

i think marriage is arguably better since it doesn't take an extra phase to complete if the target is scum, although in practice i don't like the idea of deciding the lim for a day in advance at this stage. it might be more of a late game option

it's hard for me to imagine a power that is free *doesn't* have some sort of drawback on the other side especially since it is like really better than a lot of the other powers which do cost money in a vacuum but i guess i don't know that! i'd be willing to listen to an argument to use sacrifice over trding post today

If it funds scum it will still do so it’s just delayed, 0$ for the day it’s used and then whatever amount they get out of the extra 20k that it gives town the following day. Not that we have to use the full amount but if the options are good enough we likely will.

i mean if it hits scum they get 0 and it's a guilty

idk the whole thing feels odd to me but i guess it's not impossible that there's no 'secret downside' to it?

Ah right, I wasn’t thinking about if it hits how it affects income. Also we don’t really know what scum has that might balance it some way.

I had thought about the possibility of a hider before but that kind of builds a stronger case for it to be in play now that I think about it.

[Enchant]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

You know that you can revote, correct?

Sure, why does that matter tho?

Nothing you say makes sense for me

[Merlyn]

I went back and looked through Marcis most recent games. This gameplay definitely reminds me of her play in anime music, including where she kind of just stopped playing (although that was towards the end), and she was town in that. The only scum game I read was one where she was a Hydra with gamma emerald- she was a lot more engaged in it though maybe that's bc she was hydra-ing.

I can see where I could be wrong, it's meta with a player I've never played before. But I haven't really seen a good case to lim her either. Is it a bummer that she's not really playing that much? Yeah. But I just don't see that as ai. Id rather go snivy or aureal.

[Merlyn]

I’m holding my vote for the secondary project.

why

If scum are backed into a corner I could see them trying to pull out of torture for another project to buy some time. I don’t think that’s going to happen because it’s so blatant but I’d rather not be blindsided if it does and we still have the option to maintain control (via unused votes).

You know that you can revote, correct?

Sure, why does that matter tho?

Nothing you say makes sense for me

I don't really get it either, but I'm not really clear on how the method they're using would benefit scum. I don't really get how it benefits either side I guess