Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[Abnegation]

black was at e-2? she's probably town for that lol.
haven't read anything except skimmed the most recent page, will do later.

[Abnegation]

Spoiler: page 2 quotes

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

Good morning. I exist. Hopefully, I will throughout this game.

I'm CCGeek, you can call me CCG or Shaun. (Or GGGeek when I gamesolve)

I spent so long reading the opening posts trying to figure out every conceivable way I could end up with a ban (or at least a warning) and I got beaten to the punch.

By a shitty vote post too.

I felt this so much. Someone clear this man for the duration of RVS.

dayvig: iamveryhappy

Damn, giving PS people the PS treatment is real.

dayvig: iamveryhappy

whoa the timing on this O_O

Hi five!

Too coordinated perchance

Since my return from semi retirement from forum mafia I had noticed the L word being considered a no no. I like some of the alternatives mentioned by the mod but can I just confirm with the players currently active, is Yeet ok around here?

Yeet, Iim, kill, I use all of the above.

i definitely like yeeting and fading people

I find that wording a little suspicious.

Aureal and Black are early favourites. Im a sucker for niceness.

And Black in particular feel natural with the digression into a RL anecdote.

Cary on

Day 1 readlists, while garbage-ish from an information perspective this early for others, are a decent starting point for any player's progression. +Town early into the day.

AW FUCK I GOT DAYVIGGED
owie
omgus go brrrr
VOTE: Black

Hello clems-kun u_u
Very disappointed we didn't roll scum together


I just realized we have a Jolteon and an Umbreon in the game. Should I change my pfp to an eeveelution too?

No! How else am I supposed to pocket you!

you should know by now you don't need to try. I exist to be in your pocket. kinda like a baby kangaroo. it's my happy place

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

I dont count that as solving. I have a positive opinion of two people, ironically the only two known female players to me, so maybe im just being chivalrous?

Nah, you're willing to put in the effort and not lurk, that's what matters in RVS.

Setup is actually linked at the end of the ruleset.

Alright, now that we've got things sorted, let's yeet some scum! VOTE: CCGeek

Nice bus.

Just so everyone knows. I’m very unlikely to vote until the end of the day phase.

Tossing my vote out for statement reasons doesn’t work for me. And also because people tend to use past games as meta I learned that my town play should compliment my scum play, and what’s the one thing people like to lean on when trying to identify scum? Who they voted for (or didn’t).
Beyond that, I really don’t see anyone worth voting by for right now, the game has barely got going, and I recently got my eye in playing mafia again on another site which seemed to be a faster pace than here. At least I know I won’t fall behind on my reading of this one lol.

For your information, this indicates a really really bad mindset. Town's only method of poking around for scum on D1 is voting, and the less number of people voting, the less pressure created. Not using your vote on Day as Town is the equivalent of not using your NK as scum, that is, it comes up only in very niche situations. Apart from those fairly niche situations, you're mathematically better off using your vote. I think the fact that you're used to a faster format makes sense, because this mindset comes from the faster roomchat-based games. It is not really common that in a forum format, the first D1 wagon is the lim for the day. Even if we kill off a town D1, our consolation prize is the wealth of interactions they leave behind. We have a lot more time and a lot more potential for discussion.

Speaking of discussion, right now, nothing really pops out to me except for the scattered VC, which is really to be expected this early into a game. Let's just see how this devolves from here.


The one thing I'm probably not sold on is T3's faux(?) aggression, but I'm not at all familiar with anyone's PMeta in this game apart from Iavh's.

Speaking of T3, however.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

I agree that Black's tone is slightly off here, in the sense that exhibiting a desire to solve this early into the game is enough for an RVS-period clear, so the "probably" portion is slightly unnecessary and expresses doubt over something trivial, which is not the vibe I was getting from Black from her previous posts. I'm slightly more inclined to give temporary Town points to T3 for picking up on this. VOTE: Black

VOTE: T3

hi Dannflor, is this a random vote or is there some gutread involved in placing this vote?

Yeah but it was the way you phrased it that felt weird. Either way, I'm just grasping at straws to get discussion going.

The discussion will flow better once all of us have started actively participating and actively started wagoning.

t3 and ccgeek page 2 is ???
it's not necessarily scummy, it's just ???

28 was pretty self-explanatory imo, not much more that could be said there...and ccgeek is casting what seems to be at least a non-joke vote over the word "probably"?

[Abnegation]

Spoiler: page 3 to about halfway through page 5

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

i'm not sure how serious this was, but it seems a little unintuitive to me to make a read like that as scum, with the contradicting pieces right next to each other and barely any acknowledgement that they are contradicting.

Can I get everyone to give me their mafia experience/background/record?

Let’s put it like this:

Estimated completed games:
Have you had victories in a mafia team?:
Favourite alignment:

If a first game just declare yourself a n00b

(exact number) completed games: 18, or 22 if you count the ones i've replaced out of. rolled town in all but one. current completed game townstreak is 14.
have you had victories in a mafia team?: not yet.
favourite alignment: mafia

I think CCGeek's push on you is too inconsistent to be scum, Black

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I think mafia tend to be hyper careful about their read progressions

CCGeek pushing you what looks to be semi-seriously and then calling it an RVS vote feels a little too sloppy to come from scum who was either looking to seriously push you or just joke vote you. That's more likely to come from a townie who has real thoughts and feelings that might seem to contradict each other

especially early in the game I think mafia are very self conscious about things like this

cool.

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing 98 comes from someone that thinks I'm probably scum. You conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others and then spoke to me as if you were trying to convince me that CCG is town. If I'm your #1 suspect then it doesn't make sense for you to address me this way. I don't like this at all

You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both

VOTE: Dannflor

ah, there's the town!black i was looking for!

[Abnegation]

Spoiler: end of page 5 to page 8, mostly about black

not going to do a big wall response to dann's case as it's already been responded to, but i think a lot of the "scummy" stuff black is being pushed for (especially her reactivity this game) is actually town-indicative for her. i did want to make one note though:

Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.

this was actually the wording that t3 used to describe his own read before black said that. feels a little disingenuous to make an accusation on that, not something i think is worth actually pushing/voting you for though.
also decided to refresh myself on some meta and found this:

Kokichi is tunneling on a gut read and using confirmation bias to make stuff seem scummy that isn't

I don't like it at all

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

if i had to locktown someone today, it'd be you. i like meta reads (probably overrely on them tbh), and from what i know of you, you're in your town meta. i could be wrong about your meta or you could be emulating it well this game, you are the scum queen after all, but that's something i'd rather be paranoid about in elo if we make it there.
and you forgot about micro 1082!

aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game

lol. this is accurate.

Spoiler: page 9

O_O

[Abnegation]

Spoiler: end of page 5 to page 8, mostly about black

not going to do a big wall response to dann's case as it's already been responded to, but i think a lot of the "scummy" stuff black is being pushed for (especially her reactivity this game) is actually town-indicative for her. i did want to make one note though:

Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.

this was actually the wording that t3 used to describe his own read before black said that. feels a little disingenuous to make an accusation on that, not something i think is worth actually pushing/voting you for though.
also decided to refresh myself on some meta and found this:

Kokichi is tunneling on a gut read and using confirmation bias to make stuff seem scummy that isn't

I don't like it at all

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

if i had to locktown someone today, it'd be you. i like meta reads (probably overrely on them tbh), and from what i know of you, you're in your town meta. i could be wrong about your meta or you could be emulating it well this game, you are the scum queen after all, but that's something i'd rather be paranoid about in elo if we make it there.
and you forgot about micro 1082!

aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game

lol. this is accurate.

Spoiler: page 9

O_O

the slots i replace into...

[Abnegation]

i'll finish catching up tomorrow and maybe take a look at the sideline slots i've glossed over, but for now i need sleep.

[Abnegation]

ok i have a question for everyone here

when you roll scum, on average, how guilty is your conscience

i don't feel guilty except over things i'd feel guilty about anyway. being scum doesn't weigh on my conscience, it's all part of the game. also devising evil plans is fun lol.

[Abnegation]

meowmeow makes me continue to townread her slot.

i like many of the points made in her case on dann in 351. the unvote is interesting though — meow definitely still had a case there, it was only that one piece that had been refuted. i think scum might be more inclined to keep voting there, or at least i would be as scum.
or actually, @meow - why did you consider dann's response there to be worth an unvote?

[Abnegation]

Spoiler: random IAVH meta stuff

Mini Normal 2023 (town) IAVH shitposted a lot early in the game, but made genuine attempts to scumhunt primarily by coming up with strange tinfoil-y theories but also some legitimate scumreads in which you could tell that he was asking himself “why did X person do that?” he read everything hyper-seriously and struggled to understand when other people were joking.

Newbie 2128 (town) is also more of the same. Again, he’s clearly asking himself a lot of questions the entire time. In this game he reacted fairly well to pressure and he expressed strong contempt of the scumreads on him.

MBOS 15 (town) was the exact same as the game previous games. Although in this game IAVH was never actually scumread that much or had a chance to express many reads because he was killed by the mod very quickly.

Soon after going through these three games I realized that IAVH has never actually played a scum game on this site

viewtopic.php?t=91110
there's this one.

[Abnegation]

i am mostly caught up btw, just didn't bother with another post like the ones i was doing.

[Abnegation]

i am mostly caught up btw, just didn't bother with another post like the ones i was doing.

So... Just curious... Is there someone you wanna vote, or are you cool leaving it where the previous slot holder did?

slipped my mind. definitely not wanting to stay on that vote.

UNVOTE:

[Abnegation]

Where is your head at with regards to this game dunnstral

iamveryhappy has really empty posts where they don't put forth a lot or comment on things. Their 427 does not make sense. I am not seeing a reason to not vote for them, so i will do so.

VOTE: iamveryhappy

You are so wooden that I think you're probably town.

i get "too scummy to be scum" logic in some cases, but i'm not seeing how it applies here. isn't wooden-ness when someone is having difficulty posting in a way that looks natural? not something someone would intentionally avoid doing as scum. why do you think it's town-indicative here?

[Abnegation]

VOTE: dannflor

i can do this but only because abnegation wants me to....

well now i'm not sure i want to vote there because i don't quite feel ready to put him at e-1!

[Abnegation]

dunnstral's tone is typical for him and nai

in friends and enemies i do think his posts were broadly like, better than this

what alignment were they in that game?

[Abnegation]

i like many of the points made in her case on dann in 351. the unvote is interesting though — meow definitely still had a case there, it was only that one piece that had been refuted. i think scum might be more inclined to keep voting there, or at least i would be as scum.

Maybe? What would be the town motivation for unvoting?

hmm. that is a fair question but it's not really the way i was thinking about it. i was thinking more in terms of having an agenda (if meowmeow is scum and their agenda is to push dann, unvoting doesn't help) vs. not having an agenda.

[Abnegation]

i dont understand why dann would not scumread me but scumread dunnstral

seems weird

ccs could you like elaborate on your dunnstral progression here. like were you townreading him at this point?

pedit: dunn was town in friends and enemies. dann and i were also both town in that game

ok. i might want to read it but idk if i'll have the time. realistically probably not but thanks for clarifying.

[Abnegation]

alright, i think i'm fine with doing this now.

VOTE: dannflor

e-1.

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

[Abnegation]

semi-prodge, i'll try to post more tomorrow.

alright, i think i'm fine with doing this now.

VOTE: dannflor

e-1.

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

I don't understand this vote. Dann feels like the most townie person in the game imo and there is nothing here to explain why he's the best fade? Did I miss something?

i am sheeping the kitty.
why is dann your top townread?

[Abnegation]

so "tomorrow" did not happen.

why is dann your top townread?

I think Dann has shown enough townie thought processes to at least be kept around longer. Everything just feels genuine from him. I haven't played with him before and I'm assuming he's a good scum player but I feel like he's an asset if he's town and I don't understand why he's a better fade than T3 or happy

i don't think i've been seeing whatever you're seeing, but fair enough.

update from page 23: ehh, maybe i do see it.
and i don't actually want an answer to this question, but why are we speculating publicly about who we think is/is not pr? especially in a game where someone has claimed already?

I went through the game again and didn't see anything that really pinged me. He seems to occupy a pretty solidly reasonable position. Could he be scum, sure. I don't have any reason to particularly suspect him at this point so I'm fine worrying about that later.

tbh these are the types of reads that flip scum most often

What about, like, actual scumreads? This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town.

i don't see anything wrong with it?

all of the partner speculation on page 24 is giving me a headache and i am just going to gloss over it.

Day 1 VC #11

Dannflor (4) (F-1): T3 (396), Aureal (420), meowmeow (438), Abnegation (484)

T3 (4) (F-1): Black (318), Dunnstral (506), Dannflor (571), camelCasedSnivy (526)

Not Voting

(1): iamveryhappy (532)

they're both still at e-1?
this is weird. idk what it means but it's weird.

actually why am I clearing abnegation

I kinda just want to Elli-tell Abnegation

remind me what elli-tell is?

abnegation like not really being here feels like she's just hoping to lurk out the end of day

don't love the hop on to my wagon either

meh, fair enough. activity is nai for me but i get the read.

also tbh i scum read abnegation taking meowmeow's unvote of my seriously

what? why?
i really don't think the joke was obvious, maybe to you who would know meow better but not to me, and even then why is it scummy to not get it?

[Abnegation]

the entire t3/dunn/iavh/snivy block is very "meh" to me.

[Abnegation]

and i thought dann pointed out the e-1 thing too but now i can't find it.

UNVOTE: for now though.

p-edit: yeah, knew it had something to do with activity. personally i don't feel that i'd be more motivated to neglect a game as scum than as town, but i guess you don't have to believe me.

[Abnegation]

why are you unvoting

i am conflicted enough about you now that i don't want to be voting you anymore, at least for the time being.

[Abnegation]

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

hmm let me think about it.

[Abnegation]

ehhh, sure.
i kind of just want this day to end and i have a bunch of "meh" people and t3 is one of them so...

intent to hammer t3.

[Abnegation]

well, great. intent retracted.
unless we have a cc? idk what even is a cc in this setup.

[Abnegation]

pretty sure that comes from mafia who wants to claim a pr before he dies not an actual pr

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

is there a world where dann is mafia and noticed what he thought was pr softing and told me to declare intent so he could get confirmation?

[Abnegation]

pretty sure that comes from mafia who wants to claim a pr before he dies not an actual pr

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

is there a world where dann is mafia and noticed what he thought was pr softing and told me to declare intent so he could get confirmation?

why on earth would this be my plan over just night killing T3

idk lol, it's a half-baked take but i just felt the need to post it.

[Abnegation]

ahhhh idk if i like this iavh wagon. i'm having paranoid thoughts.

[Abnegation]

does t3 want to say anything about it

was this a hint that you saw the soft?

[Abnegation]

the entire t3/dunn/iavh/snivy block is very "meh" to me.

What's wrong with Snivy?

nothing’s

wrong

with snivy, my reaction to him is just “meh.” meh is basically “nullread i would vote.” “nullread i don’t want to vote” is also a thing but i haven’t had anyone in that category.
actually maybe iavh but i need to finish catching up.

[Abnegation]

ofc I wouldn't want to fade T3
I caught onto that soft and by the time I was available to hammer the CW I can't tell between Dann and Dunn I'm dumm kek
great I love being a wagoned

I find this hard to believe. I think you would have acted against Dannflor if you had really seen T3 soft Doctor early. Being confused by names doesn't really make sense; again, you had several days to decide on something.

hmm yeah this is fair.

[Abnegation]

ahhhh idk if i like this iavh wagon. i'm having paranoid thoughts.

paranoid thoughts about who or what specifically, abnegation

idk, maybe iavh felt too easy?
it was a side remark, not something to take too seriously.

[Abnegation]

@meow - i’ll answer your question when i get home, don’t think i have the time right this second.

[Abnegation]

abnegation what was it that made you want to sheep me on dannflor

in the first place and

what made you want to reverse your read

like in isolation i think dannflor's posts recently could be considered very towny but like if you're the sort of person who thinks that i don't see how you get on the lim dannflor train considering he's been doing fairly similar things that look solvey for most of the game?

this probably will not be the response you're looking for, but i don't and haven't felt like efforting lately so it is what it is lol.

there really isn't much to it. i read case, case makes sense, i sheep.

i didn't reverse the read, i just felt worse about the vote. in all honesty, i do not remember why, and my iso is not helping. i would maybe consider voting there again but i'd have to do an actual iso of the slot.

[Abnegation]

ofc I wouldn't want to fade T3
I caught onto that soft and by the time I was available to hammer the CW I can't tell between Dann and Dunn I'm dumm kek
great I love being a wagoned

ok so uh

were you just checking everyone's isos for crumbs in something?

hmm, idk about this. on the one hand it does seem pretty hard to notice what iavh saw, but on the other hand i don't think looking out for pr crumbs is scum-exclusive. i know i do it as town sometimes.

[Abnegation]

i just want the day to end, let's end it on a pagetop.

VOTE: dunnstral

[Abnegation]

i trust in aureal's ability to roll town. also she's pretty much exactly as i've seen town!her before if i remember correctly.

[Abnegation]

my theories should be taken with a grain of salt but i wonder if 805 might have actually been a rolefish.

[Abnegation]

i trust in aureal's ability to roll town. also she's pretty much exactly as i've seen town!her before if i remember correctly.

mind you i haven't seen scum!aureal outside of multiball.

i like her doing her research though and i get what she means by 823 even though idk if i agree with it.

[Abnegation]

i don't really think it's any of aureal abnegation or black right now, although i'm not a billion percent confident

i want to see what teams within {happy, dann, snivy} make sense i guess but those slots are probably in ascending order of how scummy they are to me

VOTE: camelcasedsnivy for now

that's pretty much where i'm at too (though i will probably need to re-read some things), except swap my name for yours.

[Abnegation]

meowmeow and abnegation are just blind

at least for abnegation, shes defending aureal by saying she "trusts in her ability to roll town"

i...
i get that tone does not always come across well online but that was not a serious statement.

[Abnegation]

I think Aureal's tone seems genuine in her approach to you

I think she actually believes you are scum and what you are framing as like "dragging reasons out" is her trying to solve you

+1

fwiw i think ccs' posting to enter the day is like surface-level scummy but i don't think it's actually scummy

can you explain why you don't (or didn't) think it's actually scummy? or if you have and i missed it, can you quote it?

[Abnegation]

Do people think Abnegation's posting here was scummy, surface-level or otherwise? I don't get it. I can't say she's not in my poe but nothing here pinged me.

For me it's mostly PoE. I don't think her posting has been that bad really but some of her actions give me pause.

I didn't like the way she sheeped meowmeow to put Dann at e-1. It didn't really feel like her scumread there was substantial enough to warrant that.

She kinda did the same thing to Dunn except that was a hammer when someone else had already declared intent.

I'm just getting vibes that there is an agenda here even though the posting has seemed a little carefree and uncertain

lol i get what you mean.

i wanted to put my vote to use somewhere but didn't really have much. sometimes the best case is somebody else's.

do you think there's a benefit to scum!me in hammering the wagon myself instead of allowing t3 to do it?

ehhh, sure.
i kind of just want this day to end and i have a bunch of "meh" people and t3 is one of them so...

intent to hammer t3.

i just want the day to end, let's end it on a pagetop.

VOTE: dunnstral

Why did you want day to end so badly?

bored and wanted to narrow down the big pile of meh. and i figured no one would really object to the hammer since it looked like that's where things were going anyway.

[Abnegation]

i forgot that's a public alt x.x

she has and she like completely stomped that game. i found it while i was playing w/ her in bianco's game

if this is a pocket, it's working.

I think what worries my about abnegation (aside from Generic just feeling well within his scum range and kind of LAMIST) is just how reactive and passive she is

and I mean I guess I can take the "not wanting to effort" thing at face value but I tend to think even townies who aren't specifically trying to effort inevitably have points where pro-active sorting or prodding comes out whether said townie is trying to effort or not

her play here just feels very observational and hedgey

none of it is like, spectacularly scummy or anything, but it feels safe - and it doesn't really feel like anything in this game is interesting to her. like she had a pretty wide PoE D1 but I don't really feel like I've been prodded or sorted by abnegation or that abnegation is trying to actively sort anyone else in her PoE

and I guess I just would've expected to see at least glimpses of that by now if she were town

ah, yes, being town is sooooooooo interesting when it's the eighteenth time in a row (i swear i do actually like this game, but this is ridiculous ).
but jokes aside, i've heard a lot of this before and i think it's just what happens when i feel blah and checked out of a game. why do you think i'm more likely to play this way (passive, hedgy, disengaged) as scum than as town?

[Abnegation]

i need to consider the world where snivy/iavh are town and someone is playing me.

[Abnegation]

i need to consider the world where snivy/iavh are town and someone is playing me.

what triggered this thought

i think i'm coming around on snivy!town and it is worth it to me to consider that he may also be right on his townread.
his posting today does feel ??? but it's drawing a lot of attention for little reason if he's scum.
there are reasons to post the setup stuff as scum (rolefishing, trying to fake a slip, maybe actually roleblocker and too careless to make sure he's not tmi-ing), but none of them are all that compelling when i really think about it.
and like, does scum really respond to 856 with "im omgussing"?
it's a similar line of thought to what you said in 849 but i didn't realize it until yesterday.

probably isn't black/aureal or black/dann in that case (or in any case really).
stuff like 172, 182, 261 and so on feels more pockety than paired if aureal is scum.
and then there's 124.

Or am I the only one who tries to think about gamestate like this?

I don't think I put enough brainpower into the game to think of it this way

But you post so much more than I do.

BTW can you elaborate on why you think Snivy is town? He's really kinda frustrating me right now with his like, total disregard for explaining most anything about his pov.

I like the social aspect of the game but trying to figure out why people do what they do is hard

I'm not really confident in my Snivy read. I think his posts just give me townie vibes in the way that there doesn't really seem to be scummy motives there. Like what's the point of pocketing iavh? I feel like that doesn't benefit scum!Snivy as much as pushing him would. I think some of his posts seem a little too carefree like it could be an act but I'm not willing to believe that yet

snivy townread is also this except black did a better job of explaining it than i would.

eh

I think the initial setup posts to enter today look scummy but I see town making outrageous posts like that a lot

Rereading though, I don’t love the following reaction to being pushed for these posts. The reaction feels a little like being caught for the wrong reasons

what about it makes you think "caught for the wrong reasons?"

[Abnegation]

do you think there's a benefit to scum!me in hammering the wagon myself instead of allowing t3 to do it?

Nah, the hammer itself didn't ping me as much as the reasoning behind it. Or lack thereof really. It felt like you jumped from Dann to T3 to Dunn and it didn't really seem like you cared which of the 3 were faded. I guess I would expect town!you to differentiate between the 3 and determine which is the scummiest instead of just going with the flow and wherever the wagons led you

it was all blending together in my head, especially after i shifted on dann.

to be clear my point was specifically that i don't think snivy behaves like that as scum with exactly happy

as scum with anyone else it doesn't apply

OK, I guess we're all confused because it seemed like you were talking about a world where iamveryhappy is town. So whatever, then.

Did anyone have any thoughts on my thought experiment?

maybe i should think happy is town if i don't think he's scum with dannflor or snivy. shrug.

Thought experiment I've been mulling over: if happy is town, that means both Mafia were on the Dunnstral elimination. Why would they both get on that?

Or am I the only one who tries to think about gamestate like this?

i don't think 2 scum on the wagon is that weird of an idea.
in fact, i wonder if there's 2 scum on the snivy wagon right now...
(i will feel kind of stupid if my townread there is wrong but also i don't like that he's at e-1)

do you think there's a benefit to scum!me in hammering the wagon myself instead of allowing t3 to do it?

Nah, the hammer itself didn't ping me as much as the reasoning behind it. Or lack thereof really. It felt like you jumped from Dann to T3 to Dunn and it didn't really seem like you cared which of the 3 were faded. I guess I would expect town!you to differentiate between the 3 and determine which is the scummiest instead of just going with the flow and wherever the wagons led you

Also, I do feel like while this isn't great in a vacuum, this attitude is possibly town indicative for Alianna at this point. I just finished a game with her and she wasn't seeming terribly motivated there either. Whereas I feel like if she got a Mafia role she'd be more likely to go "yeah!!! Curse is over!!!" and put in more effort.

Hmmm. This is possible. I'll take a look at that game tomorrow morning

game link here if you need it.

[Abnegation]

was going to investigate more into my (tinfoil?) theory but i have to sleep, hopefully will be able to post more tomorrow.

[Abnegation]

Abnegation could be town. I was able to look over the game and I find similarities in tone and productivity. The difference I'm seeing is it doesn't feel like she jumped on many wagons that game. She voted maybe 3 times that whole game and stuff like her vote on T-Bone in #259 was accompanied with lots of previous finger pointing and her providing reasons why he's probably scum. I guess I'm not seeing that same effort here. I'm not really sure what an Alianna scum game would look like but I would imagine she would try her best to mimic her town behavior rather than go all try hard mode and put in a ton of effort

I need to consider a town!Abnegation world a little more

i would try to mimic my town behaviour to some extent, but my town behaviour can look like different things. i don't think i would purposely fake the level of disengagement i was feeling d1 or do the opposite and go full try hard mode if i didn't feel like it.

[Abnegation]

@snivy - you have a lot of confident reads today. which one would you say you are most confident in? like, if you had to bet the game on one person's alignment (town or scum), who would it be?

[Abnegation]

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

What are your thoughts on players not named Generic and Black?

Still happy with my vote on CCGeek.

Really exasperated with Dunn's vote on you. Like, he opens with acknowledgement that your posting style has you use words expressing uncertainty a lot, then is concerned because you used a question mark on something that wasn't a question. Then the very next sentence is also an acknowledgement that he doesn't think you're a confident player. COME ON MAN Then he basically just goes "this is a good point" a couple times and calls something a false dilemma and scum indicative. I'm not even sure what he's referring to there because it's replying to Dannflor and

trying to read Dannflor's wallposting about you is just MAKING MY EYES ROLL OUT OF MY HEAD with how ridiculously he's acting with all the "town Black should've thought about things better" crap.

Why isn't happy doing anything? Weird. If scum has been off your wagon I would guess him over Snivy.

hmm does this make aureal/dann not a thing?

[Abnegation]

@snivy - you have a lot of confident reads today. which one would you say you are most confident in? like, if you had to bet the game on one person's alignment (town or scum), who would it be?

i wouldn't bet the game on anyone's alignment, since some people are just unpredictable. however, if i had to, it would either be my black or iamveryhappy townread

yeah, not saying you

should

bet the game, just trying to get a better picture of your reads.

[Abnegation]

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

What are your thoughts on players not named Generic and Black?

Still happy with my vote on CCGeek.

Really exasperated with Dunn's vote on you. Like, he opens with acknowledgement that your posting style has you use words expressing uncertainty a lot, then is concerned because you used a question mark on something that wasn't a question. Then the very next sentence is also an acknowledgement that he doesn't think you're a confident player. COME ON MAN Then he basically just goes "this is a good point" a couple times and calls something a false dilemma and scum indicative. I'm not even sure what he's referring to there because it's replying to Dannflor and

trying to read Dannflor's wallposting about you is just MAKING MY EYES ROLL OUT OF MY HEAD with how ridiculously he's acting with all the "town Black should've thought about things better" crap.

Why isn't happy doing anything? Weird. If scum has been off your wagon I would guess him over Snivy.

hmm does this make aureal/dann not a thing?

how so

t'was just a thought, not anything i'm sure of.
it's the whole "would they really say that about their scumbuddy?"

[Abnegation]

mine.

[Abnegation]

MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Abnegation]

if it is aureal/dann, they've done an almost comically exaggerated good cop/bad cop scheme with their black reads, with dann wall-tunnelling and aureal being like, "OMG SO OBVTOWN HOW CAN THEY SCUMREAD THIS!!!???"

Spoiler: (some of the) relevant dann quotes

I think Black is scum.

I scum read the tone on Black's entrance like some other people did but her response to her wagon and to me in particular has solidified that read a lot.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Some people had a bad reaction to this, for good reason. It's a read that apologizes for itself. When people roll mafia they can often enter a game with a bit of a sense of subconscious guilt. The red role PM weighs on their conscience. It might seem ridiculous to read this much into a "probably" and a "?," but combined with the fact that Black seems like a fairly confident player, I think it betrays someone who is (whether consciously or subconsciously) a little worried that throwing out a read like that is going to be viewed negatively by the other players in the game.

I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion

CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

You may be right here

VOTE: CCGeek

I think this progression too shows Black is feeling a little self-conscious to be the first one to put a read out there. If Black scum read's CCG's vote on her, why doesn't she vote him in 54? Instead, she waits until she's read and acknowledged Aureal's 51 that shades CCGeek to jump on the wagon. I think if Black had a pure and innocent heart and actually felt bad about CCG's vote she'd put a vote there without any hesitation.

I also think specifically calling out "putting me at e-2" is slightly scum indicative. It is consistently more likely for town players to not pay attention to where the votes are at when they throw down a vote. Scum players have to be very careful about how they are perceived and how the timing of votes might look later down the line. And while I don't think it is necessarily scum indicative for Black to *be aware* of how many votes she has accumulated, I do think it is scum indicative that she used that as a point against CCGeek, as if she found something objectively scummy with which to discredit his push with.

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

Black even then later acts like it doesn't make a difference whether CCGeek meant to put her at E-2 or not, despite using the fact that CCGeek had put her to E-2 as a point of suspicion against CCGeek in post 54.

This doesn't read like someone who is genuinely trying to figure out CCGeek's alignment, it reads like someone trying to get CCGeek in a "Gotcha!"

==============================

Anyway, I imagine Black is feeling like she's under a lot of pressure for not a lot of reason pretty early in this game. But, I think if she was town, she'd more interested in trying to determine the alignments of the people on her wagon. Instead, she seems more interested in discrediting all the votes on her. I think this is evident in her pushes on both CCGeek and myself.

Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.

For one thing, I think it's weird she goes after me for a "perspective slip" despite CCGeek arguably doing the same thing by saying that Black is "tunneling" in 95, normally something you'd say to a person you think is town. It's for this reason that I don't really believe that she thinks I'm scum, or that she's genuinely trying to parse CCGeek's alignment.

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing 98 comes from someone that thinks I'm probably scum. You conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others and then spoke to me as if you were trying to convince me that CCG is town. If I'm your #1 suspect then it doesn't make sense for you to address me this way. I don't like this at all

You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both

VOTE: Dannflor

As far as this post goes, it's just loaded with scum rhetoric.

I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?

I think "You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both" doesn't make sense as a real town thought. I think at this point town!Black would have an idea in her head of which is more likely. She'd be constructing a world that makes my behavior and CCGeek's behavior make sense. Calling out two very different worlds (me and CCG as scum buddies and CCG as town) without really giving either one more credence than the other makes it seem like she isn't really considering each of these worlds and what they might mean. Instead, this feels like a rhetorical device to both discredit all the people on her wagon and make it seem more likely that I'm scum by offering up two different ways that I could be scum in this scenario.

I don't think Black actually believes that because I challenged her read on CCG, that means that I made a perspective slip that makes me scum. I think she feels like she has to push me in this way and if she were town I think there would be more of an attempt to see where I'm coming from.

There's not even an attempt really to build a coherent case against me. Instead, 108 is filled with a lot of statements that are supposed to make it seem more believable that I'm scum, with my "convenient hop on to a wagon built by others" thrown in there as if that makes sense as a reason for me to be scum "I don't like this at all" thrown in there to make the read seem more real, and "you're either scum with CCG or scum playing us both" thrown in there to make me seem more likely to be scum. I don't think any of these statements reveal that Black has genuinely thought about my alignment and what is most likely to be happening in this game.

anyway tl;dr I'd like to kill Black today

I think CCG is town and I think T3 is town

We should still kill Black today.

For one thing, we have two vanilla townie claims. I'd really prefer not to run up another player and out a PR if we think there is scum in either of these two claims. And I do. Looking at the claims, I think the the way Generic did it, as kind of a self-righteous taunt towards Black, probably comes from town. It throws away a powerful play by mafia for no reason to out PRs and Generic wasn't in a position where he was facing any pressure. It's a bad play, to be sure, but I think he's town for it.

On the other hand, Black didn't even explicitly claim.

so you were cool with being patient and letting the day play out until i pushed you, now suddenly you call for thunderdome and are rallying everyone to vote?

yeah, Generic is probably just scum here.

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

In this post, Black betrays that she is not a TPR by saying she's fine with dying. The problem is, I think if Black was actually town she'd think about the ramifications of claiming here. Why did she say the bolded line? I think the purpose is to seem like she doesn't care about dying and so that people will read that as town.

Why does being at e-1 mean Black should be eliminated first? Why is she actually okay with going first as town? As I've been told, Black is *not* a confident player in her scum and town reads as town. So, why now is she so confident that she is willing to trade her own life on this read?

====================================================================

To be clear,

@Aureal

, I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" or however you are representing my read. In fact, it's kind of the opposite.

A lot of Black's posting this game is focused around *looking town,* not being town. I would expect posting more in line with this game: viewtopic.php?t=90662&user_select%5B%5D=36961 if Black were town. Where Black is pretty unfiltered, her posts are on the shorter side, she asks probing questions, posts half baked thoughts... etc. That seems to be Black's town game from what I've researched about her meta.

That is not the same as her posting this game. Her posting this game feels overwrought and LAMIST.

Here are some quotes from a previous scum!Black game: viewtopic.php?p=13681045&f=11&t=90607&u ... #p13681045

Spoiler:

I'm not seeing the harm at putting someone at e-2. Let's assume all town votes are on the wagon. Do we really think the wolves will come through and quick hammer that? And if we assume there is one (or even two) wolves on the wagon already then townies coming through to hammer is also very unlikely

Sometimes putting someone at e-2 is good for reactions and to see how other players interact with that game state. Especially if you think that person's entrance was more likely to come from a wolf than a townie

A pretty LAMIST post in that it focuses on showcasing how Black cares so much about reactions and scumhunting, while not actually adding any content related to the game at hand.

I agree Delta. But what I find weird is that you don't consider my actions as trying to get out of RVS. I don't really like the phase so I tried to advance the game with 19, 23, and 31

As far as relying on meta, I'm not. I was just explaining why I didn't agree that Human was acting scummy

Another post where Black tries to create the narrative that she is trying to advance the game. scum!Black seems to care a lot about *looking* town.

I'm comfortable voting kawaii atm but I don't want to put them at e-1 because I don't think we should end the day any time soon. I still want to hear more from Arko

Another post where Black very explicitly spells out that she wants to do the *pro-town* thing. I don't think town!Black would actually care to be this explicit. She could just say that she's scum reading kawaii but doesn't want to e-1 yet. The "I don't think we should end the day any time soon" part is only there for Black to look more town.

I guess the best way to summarize the way I am reading Black's meta.

scum!Black cares about getting town read, and she posts stuff that she thinks will get her town read.

town!Black seems to care quite a bit less about getting town read and more about solving the game (this is probably why she gets scum read more as town than as scum )

In post 137, Brian Skies wrote:
I feel comfortable townreading this slot. Their posts feel genuine to me and I can vibe with their analysis.

I throw out these exact same generic TRs when I'm wolf. Like all the time

Also, here's an interesting post by Black from a town!Black game, especially considering the first post of the game that started garnering Black scum reads.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

In addition, here is a bunch of Black posts made this game that I think fit the model of Black explicitly trying to get town read through her posting:

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

you won't be able to weasel your way out of getting faded D2 and town will already be down 3 members assuming the NK goes through

unfortunately it doesn't look like i'll be getting the pleasure

all of these posts are just very, "looks like im gonna die oh well! look at me im so town!" it feels very disingenuous and from looking over Black's town games, it really doesn't look like the way town!Black posts.

I also just think her posts are kind of overwrought. I first noticed this with 108, where there's a lot of extra words used to reinforce Black's confidence in her scum read on me like "I don't like this at all" and the "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others" lines.

I think some of her posts arguing with Generic have also been scummy, like 247, where she makes a pedantic argument that because she used the words "probably" and "likely" she's actually not very sure about her scum read on Generic. This is despite the fact Black has implicitly said she's fine with trading her life for Generic's, she's apparently that confident in her scum read on Generic.

I don't think 255 or 258 are particularly towny either. Black is using the logic that Generic shouldn't want to be elimmed first, despite once again having just said that she is *fine* with being elimmed first. I think it's overly conciliatory considering the tone of the argument thus far and Black is looking to be seen as the reasonable one, not actually determine Generic's alignment.

Spoiler: relevant aureal quotes

Whatever happened to the fine art of the TL;DR?

:sigh:

TL; DR: Black is locktown

If you're actually town and try very hard to win, you should try going to read some towngames of Black's.

Like maybe this one or this one.

aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game

I have an idea guys. How about we pretend the last 10 pages never happened and this is page 1? -_-

i feel like it has been mostly civil. i'm sorry if this isn't enjoyable for you

i should probably just step away for the night

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

The same applies somewhat to all of you who are still dogging Black despite having been clearly warned that this is a regular pattern. It's tempting when dealing with someone who has a strong scum reputation to snatch at any little something that feels weird, I know. You don't wanna be a chump getting fooled. But you've gotta understand that being town does not make someone a logic computer. Black is very open as town and shares her thoughts, even if they're not well formed yet, asks questions that may not end up really have much purpose, shamelessly trying to solve the game rather than look good. This player archetype is apparently pretty hard for some people to figure out, but until I see Black roll scum and mimick it, I'm gonna call her town when I see this sort of thing.

I'm glad you're not feeling too distressed by it then, but I would still like to try to yeet scum. I don't feel like this is very likely to accomplish that. Generic seems to be pretty ego-driven, with his fixation on "oooh hoo, I'm gonna catch the one who hasn't been caught!"

What are your thoughts on players not named Generic and Black?

Still happy with my vote on CCGeek.

Really exasperated with Dunn's vote on you. Like, he opens with acknowledgement that your posting style has you use words expressing uncertainty a lot, then is concerned because you used a question mark on something that wasn't a question. Then the very next sentence is also an acknowledgement that he doesn't think you're a confident player. COME ON MAN Then he basically just goes "this is a good point" a couple times and calls something a false dilemma and scum indicative. I'm not even sure what he's referring to there because it's replying to Dannflor and trying to read Dannflor's wallposting about you is just MAKING MY EYES ROLL OUT OF MY HEAD with how ridiculously he's acting with all the "town Black should've thought about things better" crap.

Why isn't happy doing anything? Weird. If scum has been off your wagon I would guess him over Snivy.

i am not prepared to say if that is or isn't partner-indicative but it's interesting to note and i would be curious if anyone else has thoughts on it.

[Abnegation]

Oh no, Snivy set Alianna up for a page top, clearly they're working together!

I don't even know what to think about Snivy's supposed suspicion of me now, it's so obviously off base that maaaaybe it isn't that likely to be scum. "One thing on the second day" really??

I really don't know where else to look though, Abnegation and iamveryhappy give me more mixed signals and I just kinda want to townbin the rest of you.

yeah this game is hard. nobody's been outright scummy to me.
(another reason to be paranoid my townreads are playing me)

[Abnegation]

hmm, 1024 is giving me a bit of pause on my snivy read.

[Abnegation]

aureal what made you switch from snivy to abnegation

I looked back at some early stuff from Generic and really just don't like it now that we've established that he'll do the thunderdome thing as scum. He makes a lot of 'sarcastic' comments saying that he's a wolf. Kinda feels like something that kind of trolly person is more likely to do when they actually are, just openly wave it around as a "joke" ha ha. Also there was 22 where he says "I don't get yeeted day one" which seems maybe a setup to claim a PR, but he goes on to claim VT.

Also I realized Alianna's lack of engagement in the last game might also have been because she was a PR and trying to be more low key.

Can you elaborate on this read? Wasn't she in your PoE?

day 1 i might've voted her but i have a better poe today

You do not.

it wasn't.

[Abnegation]

If Abnegation flips scum I actually think Snivy has team equity. I don't scumread Snivy independently of this theory but I think it's weird how he proposed we consolidate onto him/Aureal/Dann after Abnegation became the vote leader

I remember Abnegation sheeping my read on Snivy too but I'm on mobile at the fair so I can't fully look into this right now

i quoted one post that i thought was good, wasn't the entire read, and even then i wouldn't call it a sheep. was just that you said something i was already thinking but didn't have a good way to word yet.

[Abnegation]

@meowmeow - if you find it easier to envision one of iavh/dann flipping red, why are you pushing/voting snivy?

[Abnegation]

it would be one thing if this was a game which i felt had like a lot of scum options - i'm not sure i feel that way. iavh and dann are the only people i find it like easy to envision flipping red here - not that anyone else is impossible, but i really don't think i'm going to vote there today - and i don't think iavh and dann are partnered

what did you mean by this then?

[Abnegation]

hmm, 1024 is giving me a bit of pause on my snivy read.

why

the way that he casually adds himself to the execution pool. it feels out of place with some of the other stuff he's posted today. like, he's been confidently defending his happy townread, pushing his scumreads, openly omgus-voting which i would typically see as self-protective, and now he's just like, "yeah game slow, don't mind consolidating on me." comes across as performative.

pedit: i think iavh and dann are the only people i don't townread, outside of snivy. i thought that would be obvious from the other five paragraphs of that post

maybe it was obvious, but i did not put that together.

[Abnegation]

hmm, 1024 is giving me a bit of pause on my snivy read.

why

the way that he casually adds himself to the execution pool. it feels out of place with some of the other stuff he's posted today. like, he's been confidently defending his happy townread, pushing his scumreads, openly omgus-voting which i would typically see as self-protective, and now he's just like, "yeah game slow, don't mind consolidating on me." comes across as performative.

pedit: i think iavh and dann are the only people i don't townread, outside of snivy. i thought that would be obvious from the other five paragraphs of that post

maybe it was obvious, but i did not put that together.

i don't like how i worded some of that, should have proof-read before i posted it.
i mean that he's got opinions, he's confident in pushing them, so why is he going to settle for consolidation on himself?

[Abnegation]

ugh why is this game so hard?

Spoiler: need to scream into void

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

[Abnegation]

ugh why is this game so hard?

Spoiler: need to scream into void

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

i think i will try to come back to this later in the day.

[Abnegation]

the secret is always act like you know what you're doing even when you absolutely don't

no one can know

see, that is easier to do when you don't actually have to be right.

[Abnegation]

What's so difficult about this game is that it's very likely that both scum are really good at seeming townie. Scum!Alanis is the exception here

why are we calling him alanis?

[Abnegation]

Hi Alianna. I hope you're having a good weekend. What's your most confident read atm?

i townread alianna.

[Abnegation]

Hi Alianna. I hope you're having a good weekend. What's your most confident read atm?

i townread alianna.

What's your second most confident read?

probably that you're town.
and i've got my doubts about snivy, but i think he's town enough that he at least shouldn't be today's vote.

[Abnegation]

the secret is always act like you know what you're doing even when you absolutely don't

no one can know

see, that is easier to do when you don't actually have to be right.

if you're wrong it's someone else's fault and that way you never have to be right

lol.

[Abnegation]

i think mafia would know the setup, since at the start of the game they get their roles - rb or no rb - and almost always talk about what that means. mafia also need to know for pr hunting. snivy's claims that dumbslips are nai fall kind of flat to me - i think if he wanted to know the setup, it wouldn't be super hard to look rather than post something like 805, and newd3 does also have tracker + doc. to me it does just like he's trying to be like "i don't know the setup so i'm town" - it just does feel performative to me.

i do also think his confidence on the iavh read is overstated. to give an example of what i mean, since it was being argued earlier - please take a look at this game. i'm publicly an alt of ausuka, to be clear. in this game, i defend enchant a lot on d1, even going so far as to call him 'hard town' and generally like digging into that position. gimli calls me out for this at some point and says my read on enchant is tmi. and he's right - in that game, i genuinely *did* think enchant was pretty towny and the pushes on him were bad and he looked more like his town meta. but given what he had done at that point, there is no way town!me calls him 'hard town' or defends him the way i did in a million years. i wanted to overstate my confidence there because if i soft defended enchant, even though that'd be more realistic, i knew i could be called out for it later. anyway, i do think snivy's confidence and insistence on town iavh is off and he's overplaying it.

these paragraphs are very, very interesting and i think they're probably very ai for meowmeow. i just can't decide which way.

[Abnegation]

ughhhh, i probably have to re-read the entire game.
i really don't want to go back through the entire game, but like, WHERE ARE THE SCUMBUCKETS? everybody makes me want to townread them lol.

[Abnegation]

i think mafia would know the setup, since at the start of the game they get their roles - rb or no rb - and almost always talk about what that means. mafia also need to know for pr hunting. snivy's claims that dumbslips are nai fall kind of flat to me - i think if he wanted to know the setup, it wouldn't be super hard to look rather than post something like 805, and newd3 does also have tracker + doc. to me it does just like he's trying to be like "i don't know the setup so i'm town" - it just does feel performative to me.

i do also think his confidence on the iavh read is overstated. to give an example of what i mean, since it was being argued earlier - please take a look at this game. i'm publicly an alt of ausuka, to be clear. in this game, i defend enchant a lot on d1, even going so far as to call him 'hard town' and generally like digging into that position. gimli calls me out for this at some point and says my read on enchant is tmi. and he's right - in that game, i genuinely *did* think enchant was pretty towny and the pushes on him were bad and he looked more like his town meta. but given what he had done at that point, there is no way town!me calls him 'hard town' or defends him the way i did in a million years. i wanted to overstate my confidence there because if i soft defended enchant, even though that'd be more realistic, i knew i could be called out for it later. anyway, i do think snivy's confidence and insistence on town iavh is off and he's overplaying it.

these paragraphs are very, very interesting and i think they're probably very ai for meowmeow. i just can't decide which way.

uh this kind of sounds like not being ai with extra steps?

in practice yes, the difference is more in my head.

like what does 'interesting' mean here

interesting means it interests me and i am noting it for when/if i decide what i think of it.

I think there's a world where he's scum and his whole agenda has been to put on this nonchalant townie act with townslips, not paying attention, etc, but some of his posts/interactions and stances have felt genuine enough for me to really doubt this

Talk to me about your Abnegation read

also w/ the townslip, which i think is only one? i do think if snivy is scum it makes a lot more sense for his scum partner to have come up with it

as i said in my big post, snivy is obviously not familiar with newd3 which is part of why the whole thing was so strange. i don't think it's something he'd go for as either alignment and it was just executed in an unnatural way. it makes a lot more sense if someone else came up with it over the night phase, and i think that's also just inherently more likely than snivy just deciding he wants to townslip suddenly

who here do you think would come up with that? i may be projecting, but i would not tell my partner to do that and i really don't see who would. is this something you think you might come up with?

[Abnegation]

i mean yes - obviously if i got the chance to communicate with snivy i would've gotten him to say it very differently but the core idea of 'pretend not to have information about the setup/get the setup wrong' doesn't seem especially novel or outlandish and i'm surprised you see it that way? unless you're specifically talking about "snivy please the exact second d2 opens ask everyone what roles exist for literally no reason and do it in an incredible way" which yes no one would do but people don't tend to communicate that specifically

i don't think happy would come up with it. i think anyone else in this game could

in my experience, townslips don't tend to actually get read as town and a significant amount of the time they will draw suspicion or get dismissed as nai.

[Abnegation]

meh, re-reading the entire game is probably not going to be that helpful.
i don't really know where to start, in terms of actually getting reads, but i guess this page is as good as any.

[Abnegation]

her posting on this page and the last feels… performative to me and not in a town way

i dunno she might cook

^ town
idk how to explain but i guess i like how this post is optimistic about me? there's no agenda or opportunism there, it's just "give her a chance, see what she comes up with."

[Abnegation]

and like the asking about interesting wasn't because i don't know what the word interesting means or whatever? i think a lot of your recent posting has been like ... increasingly "empty in a way that wants people to think it isn't empty" and i would like to hear some alignment thoughts.

like your most recent actual read is saying actually snivy might be scum and suddenly he's your second strongest townread?

the 'this is interesting but i'm not sure what i think of it' type of post is like... not that uncommon, and not inherently bad, but in this case i'd like you to elaborate on your thoughts to show you are actually thinking about it. that type of post generally means you have reasons to think it might be very towny or very scummy and they're conflicting. i know i am me but i think the paragraphs you quoted just like... aren't super ai for me either way.

pedit: oops

it's not like i just suddenly started townreading him. i already had a townread for the reasons in 956. yes, i had doubts and explained why i was having doubts, but ultimately i decided those doubts don't outweigh my prior townread.

i might have made a mistake in bringing that up. it's interesting for a reason that's not a good idea to explain at this point in the game, but i was curious how you and others might react, if anyone would say something suggesting they see what i'm seeing, etc. what i can say is that i'm currently leaning in the town direction for the original post and the reaction. you seem completely clueless about what i might be seeing in that post, and that is the reaction i expected from town. to be fair, idk what i expected from scum, but that has to count for something.

in my experience they get read as town pretty frequently shrug

obviously if you townslip in a weird way people will call it out

okay, fair, this is probably just a difference in perspective.

i mean i struggle to see ccs organically doing the newd3 thing as mafia in the same way i struggle to see him doing it as town

it's possible the partner just mentioned it after as potential damage control shrug

i don't see the newd3 thing as pre-planned by a partner. i don't think it would occur to someone who actually knows how newd3 works (which i'm pretty sure most of us do) to use "i was thinking of newd3" as an excuse for that slip. to me that part looks like snivy genuinely got things mixed up.

[Abnegation]

What's so difficult about this game is that it's very likely that both scum are really good at seeming townie. Scum!Alanis is the exception here

this is a really good observation about the gamestate, i think i've said similar in the past but this really sums it up, and it points away from iavh!scum.
subject to change, but if i go by poe right now, midway through trying to figure this game out, it's aureal and dann.

[Abnegation]

yeah, aureal's posting about black looks like blatant pocketing and i don't want to ignore that. the meta read is fine, i agree with it, but there's definitely an "omg how could they scumread you???" tone to it and i think aureal could be using that to try to influence black's view on her slot and on the slots she's shading.
i am probably reaching with this next point, but even in the early game before things got too serious, she's still got that tone towards black. makes me think that maybe getting her on aureal's side was the plan.

Spoiler: the early-game quotes being referenced

okay then

VOTE: Black

You misspelled CCGeek.

VOTE: black

Hi, other Mafia person! Done strategizing in your scum PT and ready to pay attention to us now?

i don't think i'm going to put too much weight on her being similar to other games (though i can't recall if she's done the thing i just mentioned before as town, was talking more generally) because i've never seen her as scum outside of multiball where she still has to scumhunt and i don't know how exactly her play would differ.
think this is an okay vote.

VOTE: aureal

[Abnegation]

this is another 2 minute read based off nothing but aureal and abnegation’s posting towards each other feeling distant and mechanical

like i can totally imagine abnegation being like “time to initiate push Aureal protocol #0345 as discussed in the Scum PT” and then making 1101

and then Aureal is like “yes time for some Banter with my scum team mate”

idk i haven’t actually gone back to see if there is anything especially clearing about Generic/Aureal but considering my last 5 hour solve lead me to T3/Dunnstral as a solve I feel like this can’t possibly be any worse

want to help me bus?

[Abnegation]

Abnegation, how do you feel about a Dannflor vote?

not as good as i do about my current vote but i would compromise there.

[Abnegation]

i'd also be interested in hearing why abnegation thinks black is top town

on reading her iso it's not obvious if that read has developed at all since she replaced in

it's just that she hasn't done anything to make me doubt my original read.

[Abnegation]

for me it's between ccs/abnegation and my waffling has been about who between those two i think makes more sense teamed with someone else or just individually seems more likely to flip red

my confidence isn't high enough on abnegation that if you feel significantly better about ccs flipping red then I'm happy to follow you there

I

feel significantly better about Abnegation flipping Mafia.

I mean, the reason she decided to come after me was weird enough in the context of just this game. She took the same attitude towards Black being town because of all the suspicion on her that she's now criticizing me over. It's even more weird when I consider this interaction from our previous game.

i actually explained in 1101 that it was not the read but the way you pushed it that was bothering me.

[Abnegation]

ALL HAIL THE SCUM QUEEN!

[Abnegation]

never trusting you again though.

[Abnegation]

my replace-out was due to reasons i can't elaborate on, but i don't think it would have changed much anyway. i was lost in tinfoil land and had convinced myself snivy was cop so my reads were all super distorted.

[Abnegation]

5-0 as scum now

Suck it, Generic

this makes me happy i lost lol.

[Abnegation]

gg everybody, thanks for modding ircher!

[Abnegation]

ALL HAIL THE SCUM QUEEN!

i'm honoured to be in the sig lol.

[Abnegation]

glad this game was the last in my 18-game townstreak. the end of an era.

[Abnegation]

i'll take a post 1500!