Toriel's Patience (end)

[Sakura Hana]

I think im fine moving Ari to the townbin for now.

Oh right, I forgot Ari did that meta thing that i townread her for.
Idk why i was blanking out on it before.

[beeboy]

i dont feel like ive resolved my opinion of

beeboy

, i think its not impossible my grievances are playstyle, yet they dont possess very detailed reads and POV's

i find their thoughts about their wagon somewhat relatable, albeit likely incorrect as i townread several of the wagon

the dynamic of voting should change for the read to become more effective

I liked beeboy's posting on page 53 - he felt a lot more confident than I've ever seen him post as mafia.

Have we played together before?

[implosion]

They called Taly town and the rest mafia.

mm. Not sure how i feel about the slot then. (and yeah as meuh points out, not sure why i missed you mentioning this, i guess i was partially skimming but it was late so maybe i was just tired)

what reservations do you have with my slot

implo

?

You seem like the sort of person who's willing to put a lot of effort into a scum game, I haven't played with you before, the town things I've seen from you aren't ironclad and you did ping me early.

and would you say it is accurate your recent activity is due to the wagon formation?

Partially, it's also partially just the whims of nature that I happened to feel like looking into some stuff yesterday, but I am absolutely a player who tends to get off my ass when there are votes on me sometimes.

1295 was a reflection I had on 1293, not an assertion that I have good reads and therefore should be followed on you. Kind of confused why you thought it was?

because i simply did not see post 1293.

[Aristeia]

I get why Implo would get a day 1 pass and I would usually advocate for it (stuff like EV is generally useful and he's posting in a way that feels helpful) but nothing he's said is actually town indicative and we're starving for scumreads... I think that's the exact kind of slot we need to reconsider in this type of situation

Speaking of this.
Do you think implo would have a reason to post the EV stuff as scum.

the thing about the EV thing is that Toriel spare decision doesn't come up until Day 2.5 which is weeks from now.

the maximum power Toriel has is on Day 1 and Toriel's threadpower decreases throughout the game.

If Toriel is town and you're mafia, you want to get on Toriel's good side because Toriel controls 2 votes which is pretty influential.

So like I see that kind of speculation and think about the thought behind it and think maybe this is mafia deciding to get on Toriel's good side.

I also feel it's weird that Dunnstral's reaction to Implosion's spec was to think he's town for it? I guess on a surface level if you're town and someone is advocating to blanketspare you on EV grounds you have goodfeels about that but it just feels weird that he had no paranoia about it at all. I know Dunnstral is a pretty strong mech player and I'd think as someone with a special role he'd be on the lookout for people sucking up to him or trying to pocket him but he's just taking it at face value which is strange to me.

[implosion]

wait that was a decent post from

meuh

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

See, this is my problem with this sort of game. Everyone in this list is competent enough to shed suspicion from themself.

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?)

I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Anyone else find this scummy? Implo invoking how much a player is already being townread/thread consensus on an issue when posting his take on it is kind of off to me. It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town. It comes more from scum thinking about the optics and the ramifications of their read than a townie just dropping some thoughts.

This is an interesting point but I think this is just how I think about games? I like working with people and thinking about consensus townreads and trying to find people that aren't consensus townreads to bring up to that status. For example this post I found by going into a game where I remember playing like this and ctrl+f'ing for "consensus".

[Aristeia]

like basically what I'm saying is I can see a lot of scum motivation for doing the EV calc as scum and not that much town motivation because the decision point literally doesn't come up so it feels oppurtunistic.

but I have seen Implo do mech spec early in games because he'll think about mech while the game is in the startup phase and be eager to share what he thought so I didn't want to push him on it.

I do agree with Meuh that implo feels like he's just treading water and saying things to look good rather than actually curious?

I do admit I can be kind of biased since scum him just beat me in a recent game so I am trying to not be so harsh with him I am very easily influenced by this kind of stuff.

[Aristeia]

-He feels scared of Ari

i acctually dont understand why so many people feel scared of me I'm trying to be nice this game >.<

[Aristeia]

i am tempted to townbin meuh for picking up on that he feels scared of me because I got that feeling myself and it doesn't feel like something scum says about a t-t interaction - I think you have to read pretty deeply into his posts to actually pick that up

[Mandate]

Funnily enough people talking about townbinning Meuh is giving me the energy I need to actually case her BC I think there's actually a lot here people are overlooking that's mass marketable so, I think I will get this show on the road

[Aristeia]

Hi Aristeia! I know this isn't exactly the quote in question or really relevant but I wanted to ask because I remember you talking about you would be comfortable taking a sort of leader spot and choosing who to send over with time, do you still feel that way?

I would be comfortable if I was dictator and getting to choose spares.

for example if we're in a game state where one mafia was eliminated on d1-2 and one mafia was spared and we need to spare townies to win and if we spare a mafia we lose, I would want absolute power in my hands to pick spares because I don't have to deal with any paranoia that my decision making is scum motivated since me picking someone else to

spare

is always either town me picking correctly or scum me picking correctly. Noone can argue against me and say scum ari is doing this to advance scum motivation because me picking someone else is always town motivated regardless of my alignment.

I don't feel nearly the same level of confidence now because we're picking eliminations now.

[Mandate]

Gonna start with the pre-implosion case stuff and then move onto the implosion case stuff, there's three things I didn't like one of which was fairly severe but I was kinda ignoring it because the slot seemed not like the best odds of flipping scum otherwise.

This doesn't help Sakura as a wolf though, does it?

what doesn't

If you're a wolf you want to be townread so you go over or push some wrong villagers but Sakura is just, doing neither? Unless that's the point to get townread but that's wifom ya know?

This feels kind of reductive? Wolves post to have thread presence, to be engaged in the game, to have fun... pushing agenda is nice but not every single wolf post is anchored on that and not every wolf post has deep and complex connotations. Wolves absolutely just post random thoughts to look more engaged, which tend to make you look more townie (or at the very least less appealing to lim), and nothing in Sakura's posting indicates that she isn't

trying

to be townread. Wraps around to the classic "if I'm a wolf, how come I'm not being townread?" argument, as if getting townread is this guaranteed thing to gain with certain posts rather than something that wolves fail at a bunch.

So a lot of people called this a good post and I can see why but I think empirically this is a post that comes from scum more of the time. I am confident this was empirically true, I don't know if that's changed, but I want to point that out there. It also exists in the space of "attacking people getting townread without obviously being anti townblock".

Never thought I'd be playing a game with town Dunnstral, but I think it's finally happening!

This is just very performative and strange! Like I know that Meuh is a performative player but this particular post set me off pretty hard at the time and every time I've reread I've had to stop for a while and think about this one.

Dear Meuh, you spend two of the few content posts you've arguing against Sakura and in the first "perplexed" sounds like it has a negative connotation, but by the end...you find her townie?

Hmmmm

Were you planning to betray me again?!

VOTE: Meuh

The word “perplexed” is deliberate there, it’s negative in terms of her ideas, that seem out there to me, but not her actual alignment.
I argue against

Keyleth’s argument

(which was bad regardless of Sakura’s alignment), then took a look at the ISO and got vague townvibes
You’re imagining implications for reads from the surface of my posting and not the actual thought process I have, there’s no read on Sakura that I actually voice before I agree with Ari, you’re drawing that line, and you’re wrong for doing that! Raises your scum equity a bunch cause I think you’re capable of more substantial reads, was wondering who would react when I agreed with Ari on Sakura, but this is sad…

Now here's the one that I actually found very off.

I think that Meuh's argument is actually objectively correct here. She said someone was, basically, weird. She then turned around and townread them. Which is fine I think that is a good progression that can easily come from town. What really stands out about this is the lack of teeth with regards to Shirou. She takes this bizarre middle ground where she calls him wrong, says he's imagining things, then calls him more equity scum because "he's capable of more substantial reads". All of this doesn't sit right at all, I think that if Meuh is town she is neither so performative about explaining what she was ""actually thinking"" and rather forces Shirou to justify his own position nor so wishy washy with regards to Shirou. I think that ending this by saying that it raises his scum equity a bunch without being willing to vote him is bizarre. I think that Meuh is factually not interested in solving Shirou by the way she played it but is also strangely defensive and I get big scum caught for wrong reasons / cross bus vibes from all of this.

[Mandate]

Gut from pages 1-4 is Dann town (though I think I remember seeing that's someone consensus?)

I think sakura is already (widely?) townread but this cements it pretty hard for me sort of in the vein of the philosophy that I think Shirou mentioned earlier of trying to read people off a few key posts, which I think I kind of agree with or at least am interested in thinking about as a philosophy of forum mafia.

Anyone else find this scummy? Implo invoking how much a player is already being townread/thread consensus on an issue when posting his take on it is kind of off to me. It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town. It comes more from scum thinking about the optics and the ramifications of their read than a townie just dropping some thoughts.

Idk!
Idk. This is very fake and performative. I don't know what else to say about it. I don't think this is how town!Meuh presents thoughts like this if she has them. The content itself is like, milquetoast but the presentation pings me like mad.

Yeah I'm looking at Implo's ISO and there's nothing town indicative there!
The more substantial reads are townreads that are just really easy to make from an informed perspective. I don't think any of said townreads are pushing boundaries to an extent where I think Implo is particularly trying to sort people
The scumreads are just kind of boring and weak? Implo has little actual insight on it, I think the most substantial scum argument so far is the one against me which is super weak
There's just nothing there that actually indicates Implo thinking about the game like a townie

More fake performative etc.

More importantly is the phrasing of the scumreads. She says it's "easy to make from an informed perspective". Even ignoring the weird question of what that is even supposed to mean, the case is basically that Implosions townreads are all generally townread and his scumreads are weak. Which, well, sure. But this case is applicable to at least half of the lobby and it's something we're talking about constantly. It also caps off with "nothing actually indicates Implosion thinking of this game like a townie" which again like the earlier thing she isn't saying Implosion is scum she's saying there's no evidence Implosion is town and I verified this is not something that she does as a meta thing.

[implosion]

I think I have done things that "should" be town indicative. Off the top of my head, the way I townread Brown Eyes is something I think I'd have avoided saying as scum.

Isn't this kinda the same reason people mentioned about this being my towngame a long time ago but in a lot more words?:

I mean, sort of? I think the additional words are important for why I think it's the kind of townread that you ought to be locktowned for rather than just townread for.

Gonna pick apart Meuh's wallpost on me sort of bit by bit. I sort of assume most of it is "this is why this thing is fakeable" and probably a lot of it is accurate at that level.

The Brown Eyes townread is probably the best read Implo has, but 1. I think it's something he could still notice and then comment on, and 2. it's a read based off of a singular post.

This is interesting because in response to you saying I've done nothing town indicative my read on Brown Eyes was the main

tangible

thing I could think of that I think I probably wouldn't have done as scum. Specifically because it's a strong read based off of a singular post with a specific insight that if I hadn't made it, it may never have been made - essentially for the same reason that I was townreading that post from Brown Eyes themself.

it's interesting the way that Implo is laser focusing on a single post, I think it makes it easier for him to argue a scumread but also feels less townie because well, there's a whole bunch of other posts to consider!

3 points here. 1, it shouldn't actually feel more or less townie because it isn't any easier to fake as scum; I could consider that whole bunch of other posts as scum just as easily as I could as town. 2, can't find the post specifically right now but I mentioned earlier that Shirou made a post earlier this game that has made me think about framing things in these terms, and so I've been thinking about them more lately (this isn't especially relevant to the Brown Eyes read because I think it was after I saw that). 3, and I cannot stress this enough, this game has been going Too Fucking Fast. I don't have the will to go to sleep and wake up to however many pages and digest them all fully every time.

It's always specific things being pointed out and being the reasoning for reads, which seems to me to come more from scum trying to make sure their reads are understood to be about a thing in particular.

This feels like a pretty extreme case of mistaking playstyle for alignment. Like, I use reasoning about specific things in my posts as the basis for my reads... so I'm scum? Like, the fuck? Read any game I've ever played as either alignment and you'll see that. If anything it's just how I feel I'm most rhetorically effective.

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

Okay, now I'm getting frustrated. When I explain why Sakura is town and mention that she's a consensus townread, it's scummy. When I explain why Mandate is town but don't mention that they're a consensus townread, it's scummy. Am I not allowed to have opinions about consensus townreads? Like, you say this about consensus townreads:

It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town.

And now you say this:

I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

As though it

should

be a consideration that I have when posting reads as town, because it's scummy to post a townread on someone who is already consensus town.

Also it was literally in response to Ari who had asked someone to explain the Mandate read? How is it relevant that I'm explaining why a widely townread player is town when someone literally asked for an explanation. This is inane.

Just kind of reiterating that read without anything new, but making sure to keep the door open for a future vote. So like all this accomplishes is setting things up so Implo can vote for Dann later? Which is also something Implo ends up saying about me. Can't say I'm a big fan of these posts anticipating votes instead of just voting when it feels right to. Feels overly careful.

I think this is mostly fair; town do in fact often change their minds and scum are often I think bad at replicating that process naturally so they try to leave the door open explicitly. I can entirely see that reading of my stance on Dannflor. Town do also do this, though. As I said earlier, insofar as your post is trying to say "implosion's ISO is fakeable by scum", I would agree that this isn't something that I'm specifically more likely to post as town but it is absolutely something that I can (and in this case, did) post as town.

He acts all murky about Ari for a while, then says he can have better reasons to townread her now, and then doesn't elaborate. Only been 24 hours tbf but his positioning around Ari is definitely odd. Feels like he's scared of her.

There's a few interesting meta factors between me and Ari at play here. We just played a game where I was scum and she was town where she never really found me. Historically, when we're both town, I think what usually has happened is that Ari becomes absolutely convinced that I'm scum at some point early, pushes me, I become very frustrated at her and then sometimes we find each other as town. I might be misremembering very easily because, been a while since I've played much. So there is probably part of me that is actually scared of her. But my stance on her right now is that in the game we just played, even though she was scum I feel like I saw a kernel of some way to accurately read her, which I think I'm historically not great at (there was a game a while ago where she absolutely snowed me as scum) and so I'm sort of in a waiting mode to see if she acts how I want to see her act as the game progresses.

I think Implo not noticing the mention that Taly had been on the Beeboy wagon and that Beeboy was townreading her isn't a very good look... feels odd to drop a read like this but then also just not see 1281 which is quite literally 2 pages earlier, and right after Beeboy's readlist.

I actually genuinely think that as scum there's a chance I would have gone and double checked who was on the wagon before posting that point. I'm usually a lot more willing to just hit the submit button without double checking anything as town. It's something I try to do as scum just because I often do it as town but yeah me missing these posts is indicative of me having finally felt like wanting to catch up into the game and trying to digest however many pages I needed to in a reasonable amount of time.

Brown Eyes and Keyleth seemingly haven't changed in Implo's eyes since like his second post?

Brown Eyes is a strong read based on a single post; nothing else has really changed that.

Keyleth is a player I haven't really focused on recently but I felt pretty good about the early stuff. This is just how my reads go sometimes, especially in what is, for me, quite a large game.

I think the specific mention of the Dunn townread not being spoken about yet is another one of those things that could theoretically be said by town, but that I think scum are more likely to notice.

"Notice" is a weird word here. I wanted to explain my reads (for other people, but also for myself! I very often reference my past reads as town) and remembered (not "noticed") that i hadn't talked about Dunn at all. Don't see why that's weird for town to do.

Him elaborating on that read but not some of the older reads that he hasn't touched on in ages very much gives that scummy feel of a player sticking to exactly what's been said before and only deviating on an explicit mention of the contrary.

I think this is kind of fair but I expect (if you're town who is able to read me accurately) that this feeling would go away as I continue to play the game because my reads are going to change over time, especially after day one. (And fwiw I don't think I should be "given a pass" for d1, I think I should be not eliminated today because I'm town and am showing that, alas)

[Mandate]

I've also gone back and forth in my head a lot but Meuh saying stuff like "implosion doesn't have thoughts outside of thread" essentially trying to use the opposite of my logic on Dannflor is kinda out there. Like I can't call it scummy because it's just too out there but... I really struggle with believing Meuh sees me making that read and then immediately turns around and uses it against someone and it reads like just words to me, particularly when I feel like Implosion doesn't really exist exceptionally in the space of lacking an out of game continuity to his posting. And that's what Meuhs case really looks like to me, there's a lot of words but in the end the case boils down to Implosions positioning is rather milquetoast and I don't think it takes 700 words to say that, I think that town!Meuh just says I think this dude is taking boring positions and not really doing anything and I wanna vote him for it.

This game is going too fast

I unironically wish the game was literally double the length

[Mandate]

I wish the game was around 90 pages right now I think

[Taly]

I see value in returning to the game a day later and letting thread stew.

[Taly]

Which I probably won't so out of intrigue unfortunately

[implosion]

I can see that we're starting to get a tad divided and while that's probably good if we can sit down and calculate the exact meaning, right now it's a tad challenging. I wanna catch up and comment on a few things but right now this is just at the front of my mind and I wanted to get the thought out as I put my groceries away.

I am inclined to call this a town post specifically for the statement that it's being said as she puts groceries away. I think this would feel like a possibly risky thing to post as scum while not really reading closely and it shows that the game is on her mind in the way that it's I think more likely to be as town.

I have to say that Meuh's case on me is making me feel self-conscious about posting reads - not like I'm going to not do it, but like, fuck, am I allowed to call this post from Keyleth town when most people already think Keyleth is town???

I think the

Alisae's

low WIM could be scum indicative.

Unless things have changed since like 5 years ago or however long it's been since I've seen Alisae play, this is false, but obviously they could have changed.

[implosion]

I'm still mulling what I think Meuh's case on me means for Meuh.

[Mandate]

Also like as a general rule I'm not saying never but town rarely write things like all the stuff Meuh wrote about the metaphor of the seeds and the watering and the sprouting, it happens on rare occasions but combined with everything else I think she is just big scums and I feel bad because she's been calling me hard town all game and unironically I don't think my mental is good for voting on people who townread me. I wish my scumreads would just all call me scum so I could feel better about it but yeah I think that in a lobby with very few people that are actually very scummy Meuh is kinda really really scummy and an outlier and is the first person that I've felt like ok we should Lim her today

[Mandate]

And before someone says wait but didn't you call all these other people confirmed scum before

well yes but I lied then or I lied now or something idk

[implosion]

wasn't townreading Meuh initially until the implosion case

Why do you think the case on me is town-indicative for Meuh? You describe it as a "case that looks decent", but why is a decent case something that's more likely to be posted by town than by scum? I mentioned earlier that my early impression of Meuh was that she's a broadly competent player, even if she is town I am absolutely certain that she could have posted that case on me as scum.

If I am under the current assumption that the townblock in my head is mostly correct, someone needs to make jabs at it or villagers to remove it, and right now Meuh is fitting that bill. Maybe we just disagree, and that would be great if you could help show that to me?

This is certainly a straightforwardly cogent explanation for Meuh casing me. The fact that I am (or at least was iirc, I guess with Sakura voting me maybe less so?) being sort of townread specifically by the other consensus townreads, while I have also been

relatively

disengaged, would make me an appealing target in the gamestate for scum.

I guess conceptually this game is pretty close to nightless - we skip the first 3 nights so we get

4

flips before scum have any control over who is in the thread at all. So if there's a correct townblock then they're sort of obligated to do something about it at some point. I think the reservation I have about that being the straightforward reading is that I don't know if it'd be the tactic scum takes this early, as opposed to waiting and seeing which parts of the townblock tend to chip away over time.

I think Alisae could be afk scum but if that's the case I doubt that e is afk because e is scum because e has reasons (not good ones imo but reasons) for being afk

I think if Alisae's afk is probably broadly unrelated to alignment either way.

[Sakura Hana]

This read is less specific ("the way they're thinking about the game", "evolution of stances"), though I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

Okay, now I'm getting frustrated. When I explain why Sakura is town and mention that she's a consensus townread, it's scummy. When I explain why Mandate is town but don't mention that they're a consensus townread, it's scummy. Am I not allowed to have opinions about consensus townreads? Like, you say this about consensus townreads:

It's not really a consideration I have when posting reads as town.

And now you say this:

I think Implo going out of his way to explain why a widely townread player is town isn't the best look?

As though it

should

be a consideration that I have when posting reads as town, because it's scummy to post a townread on someone who is already consensus town.

Huh, this is a good point actually.

I'm still not entirely sure who's the one pulling a fast one on me here, and i'm currently too tired. But since there's a chance my vote is in the wrong place right now i'll just remove it for the time being.
UNVOTE:

[implosion]

Dannflor - Eh towny?
Aristeia - Idk
Lazy Shirou - Idk
Brown Eyes - Idk
Dunnstral - Most likely town
Meuh - Most likely town
Merlyn - Idk
Keyleth - Town
Mandate - Town
Alisae - Idk
Taly - Town
implosion - Probs scum
beeboy - Town

Actually I townread a lot less people than i thought i did.

Your "idk" list here is notably

exactly

my "still need to sort" list plus Brown Eyes.

[Mandate]

Smh I made my Meuh case because you wanted to lazily sheep someone and then you just unvote

Angry