Large Normal 245 | Game Over

[Titus]

Hi. I'm BlackStar.

[Titus]

So the Heip theory is that they slipped the neighbors?

[Titus]

VOTE: heip

[Titus]

i think the heip wagon is fine

it's credible that it's just a coincidence heipzhu named those 3 slots but if heip flipped red that would lead credence to there also being a red slot in that neighborhood pool

It would be the only way a slip could occur.

[Titus]

I really don't see comprehension of what's happening in the game with Naerys in regards to my slot specifically. They're hiding behind "they're good scum" to blanket discredit, and they kinda avoid any full answers.

We'll dance later.

[Titus]

I'm a bit confused as to the hood situation.

[Titus]

THS, can you explain the theory? I like a good theory. If we can set out clear premises, we can test them.

[Titus]

My only defense for Heipz on an objective level.

But their lack of direct defense means scum probably is trying to protect them without tying themselves to them in case they go down.

Probably. Could be a free miselim but I doubt it. I agree it's unlikely to hit all scum day 1. I love a good theory though.

Can you explain the neighborhoods?

[Titus]

All 3 of the other neighbors are kind of avoiding going onto Heip while keeping it open. Snivy pushed to Holdsteady, Dann to Naerys, and Smiley with Snivy.

Out of the 3, Dann’s the towniest.

This is purely associative, though.

If we’re wrong on Heipz, and it somehow is a coincidence, then idk. I don’t think there has to be scum in the neighborhood in that scenario, which imo, makes Naerys a bit scummier.


This is a juicy game so far, I can’t like confidently say for sure it’s any of them, but there’s threads for each. Just as easily could be getting played by scum manipulating my push.

This game was pretty slow until I came in, and even when I hadn’t come in yet, people were like revolving around waiting for me to make a move it felt.

So i feel scum are trying to warlock me here

Remind me what warlocking is please.

[Titus]

Can you explain the neighborhoods?

idk nothing really happened in there aside from me asking FL to stop shading me because FL was pretending it was the scum PT

I mean who is in what hood.

[Titus]

Readwall?

[Titus]

I'm off to bed. I have a long few days ahead where I'll be popping in. I expect to start trial on Wednesday. So early morning or after work are likely the times I'll post.

[Titus]

I'm voting but hoping to see a readwall. If it's good, I may reconsider.

[Titus]

I'm already on the wagon...

[Titus]

I'm in agreement with Flavor Leaf. Normally, I am all for counterwagons but Heip probably slipped.

[Titus]

VLA Till Sunday

I still expect to post some more in the evenings but not as much as I have been.

[Titus]

I always get worried when it takes this long to hammer a probable slip. I need to look at the counterwagons in detail but I am reluctant to drive.

[Titus]

Welp. At least I can do some VCA tmo. Tonight is writing group. Please don't end the day until then. I'd like to do something.

[Titus]

Yeah, if Smiley flips town, you're either not town or not loyal and you'd be tomorrow's elim anyway, so we have that. I'm on board with a Smiley elim today. I mirror the sentiment that we wait for others to check in.

Agreed. It's theoretical that Flavor would we blocked but that's a huge violation of occam's razor.

[Titus]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Let's see something.

[Titus]

Yup. I decided to vote you anyway.

On a serious note, I agree you likely got blocked.

[Titus]

I'm essentially blank too.

I want to focus on who put Smiley at L minus 1 knowing I hadn't done my VCA yet. I also kinda want to see if anyone will troll w me.

[Titus]

FL talk to me about davesaz please.

I need to do some as well but sleep and work call.

[Titus]

I want to focus on who put Smiley at L minus 1 knowing I hadn't done my VCA yet.

If I did this, I did not connect with your desire to do VCA.

Were you not reading my posts?

VOTE: davesaz

[Titus]

Thank you pisskop.

Based on D1, I'd be suspect of people not on Heip. I think scum knew he was town and avoided the inevitable wagon and pushed elsewhere. Hu Tao is likely town then.

Pushing a partner when it's known someone else will eat rope is great distancing.

[Titus]

if scum dont have a blocker, then Hu Tao is guiltied scum.

what did I miss?

i shot at Hu Tao last night.

I don

[Titus]

I don't need a massclaim to infer scum have a blocker and or healer. A gunsmith plus loyal vig needs some defense. There's doc, jailer, roleblocker all in play.

[Titus]

Dann was gonna check Titus, but I opened my mouth and got rid of my main suspect as a target

Thank you. I hate being conftown.

[Titus]

like a town doctor targeting ScumTao the same scenario happens.

I feel like for some reason Hu Tao's getting a pass, and on a gamestate level, that just feels off to me.

if anything they should be neutral, not a free pass.

Yes. It's null.

[Titus]

Right, but was your target discussed? Trying to check if scum would know that blocking you could give a fake guilty.

Comparing to a recent scum game Hu seems really different to me.

Wouldn't need to know the target. If I was scum with a blocker, I'd block Flavor. It's a numbers game. I'm not sure if scum think three steps ahead and have a blocker but it sets up many future days if Flavor picked town. Mathematically that's good odds.

[Titus]

@Davesaz, I am in court. I also underwent major surgery since we played last.

[Titus]

it also would keep me as technically unconfirmed since it made it so i didnt get a kill so people can still push Flavor Scum paranoia.

That's where I get the three steps ahead.

We flip Hu. Hu is town. (High odds mathematically.)
Scum get a nightkill.
Scum then push Flavor as lying to make sure Snivvy didn't fight or some nonsense.
At elo minus 1 day if we didn't have an explanation, Flavor would be eliminated.

Not how I'd like to play it.

[Titus]

Flavor didn't kill you. Not opposed to the lim here based on Hu Tao play but I think the failed shot is null.

I don't see how davesaz has Hu Tao so high up though.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Titus]

but im okay leaving Hu Tao a bit, but they shouldnt end game unless a scum blocker flips.

with that

VOTE: Naerys Ill join the other suspect.

I'd actually prefer x Twitter slot first. But my reads this game aren't the best so far I think based on day 1

What were your day 1 reads?

[Titus]

Can you do a readwall Hu Tao?

[Titus]

UNVOTE:

[Titus]

I'm also checked every game

That used to be me but I'm an old fogey.

[Titus]

I was torn between allowing the autopilot mislim vs outing and getting killed before I can get a guilty.

What are you claiming exactly?

[Titus]

Oh, I get it.

Good enough for me for now.

VOTE: Naerys

#confused

[Titus]

VC 2.FINAL

Votecount 2.02 (FINAL)

SmileyDude1 (7):

Flavor Leaf, Dannflor, camelCasedSnivy, Gamma Emerald, Naerys, davesaz, SmileyDude1

[HAMMER]

Not Voting (6):

Hu Tao, Save The Dragons, pisskop, Celebloki, Titus, Random Nurse

With 13 players alive, it took 7 votes to secure an elimination.

Mod Notes:

• Titus is V/LA until Sunday.
  
• Here's the Combined Mod ISO.
  
• Good night!

To be serious for once. I believe Snivy/Gamma could contain scum. Or maybe just Snivy tbh. Either Snivy is red or Smiley self hammered before his buddies could bring attention to themselves. In that case i think scum could be Titus and maybe StD slot? Or maybe Snivy AND Titus? Should be something to consider

I have a major problem with this "analysis". The wagon was based on two guilties and prematurely cut off discussion. You assisted in putting Smiley in a position where he could cut off town from talking. We should be talking about the D1 wagon.

I'd like a massclaim before I do the VCA to have the most info possible but this is an obscure place to start.

[Titus]

I guess I need an eli5 because I feel davesaz is scummy. If this many people see innocent crumbs, then I guess I missed something.

[Titus]

Right now I think it's davesaz Nayers and Hu Tao.

[Titus]

Flavor, do we massclaim?

[Titus]

Right now I think it's davesaz Nayers and Hu Tao.

so you think there is 4 scum in total

Yes. I do. I can't see two invests (possibly 3 with davesaz) without a lot of scum to match. Otherwise, game is just mechanics.

[Titus]

Dave (formerly known as x checking) in.
I'd like a little discussion before yeeting the apparent guilty, just to get fully settled in. I like roles that function like a

cop

, if nothing has happened to mess them up. They're easy to figure out when they're true.
I may

even

have time to read the the game before

night

, if it goes slowly enough.

Any suggestions on who to check out first?

Smiley of course, to see if Flavor's result lines up. Who else is in this hood I see mention of, just in case I don't find it easily.

This was D2, in my first post.

So a gunsmith and a cop? I'm not sure I buy this.

The gunsmith with a loyal vigilante neighbor works because the interactions look bad if vigilante succeeds. Real easy to assume he's lying.

A random cop on top. I don't think so.

[Titus]

We should massclaim and bust the setup

Flavor picks order but I recommend popcorn.

[Titus]

That 1st post leaves out a detail that is crumbed elsewhere btw. I'd rather not provide scum the whole roadmap. Though it does mean that it's probably role madness so maybe it does help.

Can't be role madness. D1 and N1 flips.

[Titus]

Naerys isnt in a position to gently soft anything.

She should probably consider fullclaiming though

VOTE: Naeyrs

[Titus]

Naeyrs didn't hammer. That was L minus 1.

[Titus]

That 1st post leaves out a detail that is crumbed elsewhere btw. I'd rather not provide scum the whole roadmap. Though it does mean that it's probably role madness so maybe it does help.

Can't be role madness. D1 and N1 flips.

Depends on your definition of madness. I see at least 2 more roles are required to make the revealed mechanics and my details work, though one of them could be scum.

“Role madness” means every player has a unique/non vanilla role
I used that definition since you can have a token VT and the game can still be role madness

There's confirmed two.

[Titus]

we massclaiming? cool I'll go last

Flavor is conftown. He picks order.

[Titus]

Why wouldn't StD just shoot Flavor?

[Titus]

Well I was under the impression we were going to mass claim and that FL was picking the order. And based on this ...

Dave isn’t a cop they’re a role that functions like a cop, so I’m most curious about what the actual role is. We’ve had 2 nights to use something.

Then go like Celebloki and Pisskop claims.


PEdit: scratch that, the worst and celebloki

He wanted Dave to full claim first. Should I still be waiting on him and the worst? I haven't seen anyone actually fully claim their roles and gates. If we just want vague role claims with no details I can go.

If we're not doing that should we just get Naerys out of here?

This.

[Titus]

I'm depressed IRL. It will likely impact my play.

[Titus]

Me too. Kinda powerless on a big problem at the moment

[Titus]

We can deal with that after we flip Naerys

[Titus]

How did pisskop slip?

Also intent

[Titus]

That's correct.

[Titus]

Thank you. Hammering in 5.

[Titus]

VOTE: Naerys

[Titus]

Pisskop should be a suspect at the very least.

I'll review pisskop tonight if you're town.

[Titus]

I'm rather confused about this game. There's literally no way all the PRs are true but I'm too tired and depressed to sort it out.

[Titus]

I'm going to leave this imaginary pizza here and go eat real pizza with my writing group.

[Titus]

I need to reread this tomorrow but I am fine with a worst lim but as group scum only. If we go with SK, that's Snivvy our bp claim.

[Titus]

@TW, your partial claim is also silly.

@GE, It's more that I don't townread them. I'm finding there's more peacocking than solving so it's hard to get in each other's heads.

[Titus]

@TW, your partial claim is also silly.

@GE, It's more that I don't townread them. I'm finding there's more peacocking than solving so it's hard to get in each other's heads.

Alright, I at least understand this even though I don’t entirely agree
Idk what peacocking means and you might be right about it but I think Naerys just felt organic when she thought she was hammered

Being flashy to look good and attract others

[Titus]

I feel FL and Gamma is town core but I'd like more.

I don't trust every PR claim but the VTs seem more together. I feel like I'm just going to get betrayed no matter which way I slice it.

[Titus]

I think I meed davesaz exact claim to make headqay.

[Titus]

I think I meed davesaz exact claim to make headqay.

Even night something cop is exact enough. If we have a full mass claim so that my not revealing the something isn't protecting another role then you can hear it. The something doesn't affect what I can do.

The more you resist, the more I think it's fake. I have a guess but that's not a hard clear in two scenarios.

[Titus]

Yet you're acting like it is, which is odd.

[Titus]

If you're town, I believe your result. I just don't know that I think you're town in the grand scheme of things. There's far too much power and those who have it are too cagey.

[Titus]

Gob what are your thoughts on TW?

Pisskop, if we're limming tw then how does it help to finish massclaim?

[Titus]

Intent to hammer after the next vote.

[Titus]

Ayn Rand was a selfish idiot.

Can we not get political? I'm not a fan but this ain't the place.

[Titus]

Also hammering after mass.

[Titus]

Meh hammering before I head out. My godchild is running late.

VOTE: the worst

[Titus]

I am thinking Naerys camelccs gob is where we find the scum with an outside moonlogic of davesaz being scum.

[Titus]

Hood has 1-2 scum, FL is fairly high partner equity with Smiley bc bussing and leaning on the hood thing but I'm like on the fence abt whether he's actually scum.

bussing threat/partner equity is the main reason he needs to die

This hot take stands out. Still don't agree w it though

[Titus]

VOTE: Flavor
Sending a hi from hospital bed

Why? Get better soon

[Titus]

It made sense to me. There's too much power out of what's claimed.

[Titus]

It made sense to me. There's too much power out of what's claimed.

it's possible indication we are in 4:11 not 3:12.

We'd have to be imo.

If you're real, I strongly think Camel is scum and that the dead scum tried to borrow his actual role or Camel is just an SK.

[Titus]

Cele flipped doc.

Do you think there are 2 docs in the game?

No.

The bodycount doesn't precisely match an SK but the body count didn't match TW's claim.

Scum need to have something to block Flavor if Hu and Flavor are both town.

I keep running into unrealistic scenarios no matter how I slice it.

[Titus]

I think the idea that a gunsmith in a hood with a vig and a bulletproof should be checking the BP claim.

idk though.

he died before got the chance. Dann was checking Naerys Night 2, though when they died. I wasn't really skeptical of Snivy then either, though

Is it possiblr Camel Naeyrs? They're aware of Dann checking and shoot him.

[Titus]

there's at least 3 Vanillas flipped/claimed. I imagine a couple more. So like, 5 vanillas in a large normal like this, makes sense. I've seen less.

Do we just finish mass claim

[Titus]

Im still in favor of it.

im in f

l

avor of it too

Ok so what's the order?

[Titus]

Gamma, Pisskop, Titus, Gob, Hu Tao

are the only unclaimed, right?

Idc.

Let's go Gob, Gamma, Pisskop, Titus, Hu Tao?

Fine w this

[Titus]

Gamma, Pisskop, Titus, Gob, Hu Tao

are the only unclaimed, right?

Idc.

Let's go Gob, Gamma, Pisskop, Titus, Hu Tao?

I refuse to go before Gamma.

Why?

[Titus]

Vt here

[Titus]

Yeah, VT.

Tuesday is conf town anyways because of Dave unless they’re both scum, but I’m not worried about that at all right now. I think Dave just dies tonight.

What’re you a backup of?

I can't pencil that in with Davesaz not claiming his exact role.

If davesaz is a PT cop for instance, then Hu Tao can be a traitor.

[Titus]

Ok, given the doc kill last night then I'm ok penciling davesaz and hu tao as town unless they both live to elo

[Titus]

Yeah I just keep going back to Naeyrs Camel gob.

Pisskop and gamma could be scum but I don't feel it based on play.

[Titus]

according to the duck, we're in a 3:12 more likely than 4:11, so we have a few chances. Idk if I fully believe it, but if they're stacked PR's with anti town vig's.


Hu Tao. Claim. you're last one.

Unless we think davesaz is scum, we don't need their claim.

[Titus]

You do you.

As long as Naeyrs camel and gob aren't in elo I'm fine

[Titus]

VOTE: Naerys

[Titus]

Mafia BP Neighbor Traitor?

could kinda see it

I could. I still think camel is an SK but I wouldn't rule this out given how lackluster the slot is.

[Titus]

Gob, can you detail a readwall?

Thoughts on camel and Naerys?

[Titus]

Gob, can you detail a readwall?

Thoughts on camel and Naerys?

Detail a readwall? Wtf does that even mean?

camel, I have no clue. Naerys, I thought she was scummy yesterday, but I dont like how everyone is pushing her right now.

Make a list of everyone, their alignment and why.

[Titus]

So uh. Who does everyone scum read the most

You're my biggest scumread. /s

[Titus]

oh hey i should probably see whats happening here but looks like you guys finally put scum at e-1

Don't let ccs out of voting scum.

[Titus]

Is this dead?

[Titus]

I am in agreement. If both davesaz and Hu Tao live, we always lim davesaz first.

CCS, can you give reads?

[Titus]

Idk if i agree with that. Scum can always just roleblock Dave and kill elsewhere to control day

They could, but there isn't a universe where Hu Tao is scum and davesaz is honest. Well town davesaz could lie for town hu tao in theory but that's not here.

[Titus]

We need to take a fresh look at everything. Ultimately Hu I think is still lock. I don't think davesaz fakes things.

[Titus]

Titus, what were your reads at the end of the last day phase?

Naeyrs ccs gob.

[Titus]

I have more paranoia with Gamma/Pisskop than I do with Titus right now, but I don’t think it’s ever Gamma AND Pisskop whereas Titus could be a partner to either of them if they are scum.

My worry with Gob is that they’re low hanging fruit town and scum are banking on a Gob fade + 1 more.

I have a similar worry about gob. I suppose any sub out is irl and NAI.

Right now, you're my only living TR.

[Titus]

Dave dying is expected, and those who were town leaning Dave probably have scum in them in preparation for that.

Disagree. Davesaz was a decent shot if scum couldn't fade him, which suggests the town readers of him are town.

[Titus]

Elements, how many scum do you think are left?

[Titus]

I'm a bit worried everyone is TRing FL.

If FL is town, then only one of the other slots can be scum as balance would be off. Then again, mods love unbalanced games nowadays sooo

[Titus]

I want to vote between gamm/titus today

someone have a pagetop

Interesting. Why not pisskop?

[Titus]

I want to vote between gamm/titus today

someone have a pagetop

Interesting. Why not pisskop?

Do you think pk is scum?

Unsure. Looking to get the lay of the land.

[Titus]

I think I want to go where Hu Tao goes given conftown.

[Titus]

I think FL scum, Elements scum, and one of pisskop gamma gob scum.

[Titus]

I think FL scum, Elements scum, and one of pisskop gamma gob scum.

You think there were 3 scum in the neighbourhood?

I think we're in this mess due to setup spec.

[Titus]

VOTE: Elements

If this ends the game, gg scum.

[Titus]

Clearly it's a 2 person scumteam or we lose.

[Titus]

It's good to know titus doesn't care about this game anymore

That's personal. I care about every game.

[Titus]

I don't think we no elim here. We clearly have just two scum left. Not three like my assumption.

[Titus]

The game’s over, but technically because I’m a Traitor, game continues because it’s possible they didn’t know who I was.

Im sure they do. So as long as we don’t vote each other, this game ends in a scum victory.

We do. It took awhile to figure it out due to the mechanics. I suspected early on based on some behavior.

[Titus]

Its not too late to murder him

It is. There's three scum alive. Mod technically can't call it but we knew. There's no way town has the numbers.

[Titus]

I do want to say it was fun.

[Titus]

The game’s over, but technically because I’m a Traitor, game continues because it’s possible they didn’t know who I was.

Im sure they do. So as long as we don’t vote each other, this game ends in a scum victory.

We do. It took awhile to figure it out due to the mechanics. I suspected early on based on some behavior.

Nice. You thought I was traitor that one time when i wasn’t, so i was hoping that you didn’t think that i wasn’t traitor because of that.

I setup early game on Naerys, Hu Tao, Gamma with some Traitor crumbs, but as the game went on, i thinj you and i kept getting tied together more. Especially after yesterday.

Based on mech, you should have been limmed. Game would have been immensely imbalanced if you were town. Even still, we had to lim PRs.

[Titus]

Also, we never danced lmao.

[Titus]

I am glad people did not know of my history with Flavor. I didn't really sort him or act like elo.

[Titus]

While Flavor should get some credit for carrying me through my illness, gob should too. Gob assumed that he was dead to rights but asked for advice and trucked along like a trooper.

[Titus]

My thoughts as a mod:
Setup wise I think this was probably the swingiest setup I've ever seen, but I can't say it was particularly maf sided. If Dannflor remained alive he could get a second guilty (in fact, he was deciding between two different scum to investigate on Night 2!). If the worst managed to stay alive, he would've killed FL most likely. Still, 4 scum is very strong.

When I saw what role FL rolled, I was excited because it felt like the role was perfect for him. Well, it was. I think FL was MVP for the scum team, with his powerbus winning him amazingly good towncred followed by eliminating any towny that started to dissent and suspect him. Amazing play. The rest of the scum team also played really well though - Smiley with spotting FL early like a pro, Titus with making the perfect kill every single night, and gob with looking extremely towny so that in ELo town had no chance of actually voting scum correctly.

Gob deserves credit for trusting me. I think giving all the credit to Flavor actually diminishes gob's stellar contribution. I am good at scum. Not to often I get carried in day play. Gob and Flavor helped me survive to get those night actions off.

[Titus]

Anyway one of my biggest ambition now is to evolve from lim target.

You actually did good. It was more a PoE push. We had very few mislimable slots. Just sucks y'all massclaimed, which outlined who we could push and theories.

[Titus]

I actually have a question for the vets here, when I saw I rolled Doctor, my initial inclination was to never claim it. But as the mass claim was rolling along I wasn't sure if I should have lied with a VT claim, or just said I was a Doc. Should I have stuck to my gut and not claimed?

If you didn't claim, you would have been in the lim pool. That's hard to actually know. It's interesting that pisskop didn't claim. If you both did, you might have been on the table.

[Titus]

I followed along with this game and I had Titus pegged as scum. Not FL at all though

I didn't do VCA. If I was town, I would have done one with the disclaimer that I was sick. Flavor didn't push me on it, which should have been a sign too.

I hope to play with all of you again.

[Titus]

Oh Lord 4 scum team including FL, why do you put us through this

You had two cops and a vig, which is three unlimmables. Then two doctors on top. We needed something for balance. The whole town could have been cleared with coordinated actions.

[Titus]

“Oh no, I’m being used to further his agenda.”



Memorable birthday for sure. Wild i get to sit here reading it, drinking this free Starbucks.


This was a STRESSFUL game. I hate not being able to talk to my partners, but maybe that also unlocked something.

Titus and I not interacting until late game, if someone was familiar with us, is actually a partner tell, I feel, but i was trying so hard to not like have crumbs that Titus was my traitor if I went down.

I get the feeling we would have butted heads strategically. We had partner tells seasoned people should have got imo.

[Titus]

Aside from the master bus on STD by FL, I think the other great scum play was ending D2 so fast before more info could have gone out. If Dann had been saved by me, we would have had a lot more info to proceed with. Good game. Town got so confused at the end lol.

I save a cop over a vig everytime. If we have a doctor rather than a jailkeep, this game may have gone differently.

[Titus]

Anyway one of my biggest ambition now is to evolve from lim target.

You actually did good. It was more a PoE push. We had very few mislimable slots. Just sucks y'all massclaimed, which outlined who we could push and theories.

Also, ty for aiding the mass claim push I did.

And you anointed me as the one to choose the order.

I almost slipped up and left out Hu Tao since I knew they were Vanilla.

Anytime. I knew in day play I was supportive and I wanted the info for nightkills. I figured I'd abuse you being the only "conftown" alive.

Slipping on Hu Tao would be no problem since they were conftown. I could defend that as conftown shouldn't claim in massclaim unless needed to coordinate.

I also needed davesaz's fullclaim to confirm Hu Tao wasn't the traitor although I was pretty sure it was you.

[Titus]

I feel like I was kinda slipping the extra mafia, but logically scum had to have more than a role blocker against two players that can hard clear, two doctors and a bulletproof.

Hu Tao, definitely being more vocal is good.

[Titus]

Never be sorry about subbing out (unless it's strategic). Real life comes before mafia.

[Titus]

Never be sorry about subbing out (unless it's strategic). Real life comes before mafia.

tf is with all the random advice

I try to take care of my people. I want every person to be better off for having met me. Sometimes I fail though.