Open 898: Don't Fall In The Volcano! | Game Over!

[DragonEater70]

Had you read anything at all before writing 411?

Skimming, definitely need to do in depth reading
Initially I'm seeing a lot of conflict, it's insane

So you skimmed before asking Klick about FakeGod? Did you feel like Fake was solving in the posts you read?

I felt what FakeGod was being reasonable, 188 made sense minus the Klick vote.
I saw 230 making sense initially but now I want elaboration why the poe specifically points to Klick.
I see the observations in 348 as good, sorting through playstyles vs. alignment.

I don't like this post and I don't like Kawaii's entrance

I'm not following the logic to voting Klick with town-reading Sky's reasoning and Dragon's post. Is voting Klick PoE? What's your scum case on Klick? If I missed it let me know

Because how short it was since game start, and because the mod's votecount on page 2 did not reflect a E-1 state, a scum player could plausibly place a hammer on Black and evade responsibility Day 2, essentially gaining a free mis-execute. Therefore, this action of holding the E-1 wagon on page 2 is scum-favored.

4 people created the E-1 wagon on page 2. Their names are Klick, NekoLover, DragonEater70, and Skygazer. They held it until Neko unvoted at his earliest convenience, so I would remove Neko from the scum pool. Skygazer is the one who put poor Black on E-1 to begin with, but it was because he thought he saw a scumslip. If I saw a scumslip, I would take the same action he did. Dragon put momentum on the wagon by being the 3rd vote on the wagon, and my initial suspect out of the group (hence my early vote). I admit I did like 154. It felt a little hare-brained to me, but it could at least stumble through it and see what Dragon was thinking.

This leaves Klick. He said his first vote was RVS vote. Despite seeing Black pushed into E-1, he conveniently sidestepped the issue in his 36. Seems like he wants the job done but he doesn't want to say so outright. This looks scummy to me.

I hope this explains my voting of Klick to you.

This, combined with the quote below, sounds like a probably real thought:

Spoiler:

In very brief: I was vaguely aware that Black was at E-1. I didn't care that much about it. In the very early stages of the game I find that sort of stuff somewhat amusing. If people want to do crazy stuff early on, that's their prerogative. Ultimately there's stuff to read into that sort of play. The E-1 contributed to us progressing the thread in a healthy way.

tl;dr risk-averse play during RVS is for losers.

I've come back from work and this post caught my eye. I am saddened.

It seems yet again that I'm faced with the stark reality that there are some players who will draw town and do anti-town things.

I did not expect Klick to just straight up admit that what he did was antitown and he doesn't care.

I have no coherent response.

Maybe page 2 E-1 wagon was just bunch of townies doing stunts, and I am simply... risk-averse.

Also UNVOTE: FakeGod
VOTE: Klick

After reading all that i'm more confident fakegod is town

Why'd you vote Klick there?

Spoiler: Kawaii post

I'm not following the logic to voting Klick with town-reading Sky's reasoning and Dragon's post. Is voting Klick PoE? What's your scum case on Klick? If I missed it let me know

Because how short it was since game start, and because the mod's votecount on page 2 did not reflect a E-1 state, a scum player could plausibly place a hammer on Black and evade responsibility Day 2, essentially gaining a free mis-execute. Therefore, this action of holding the E-1 wagon on page 2 is scum-favored.

4 people created the E-1 wagon on page 2. Their names are Klick, NekoLover, DragonEater70, and Skygazer. They held it until Neko unvoted at his earliest convenience, so I would remove Neko from the scum pool. Skygazer is the one who put poor Black on E-1 to begin with, but it was because he thought he saw a scumslip. If I saw a scumslip, I would take the same action he did. Dragon put momentum on the wagon by being the 3rd vote on the wagon, and my initial suspect out of the group (hence my early vote). I admit I did like 154. It felt a little hare-brained to me, but it could at least stumble through it and see what Dragon was thinking.

This leaves Klick. He said his first vote was RVS vote. Despite seeing Black pushed into E-1, he conveniently sidestepped the issue in his 36. Seems like he wants the job done but he doesn't want to say so outright. This looks scummy to me.

I hope this explains my voting of Klick to you.

Klick failing to unvote Black at E-1 is sai. Especially failing to in 36 since Klick says,

We put quite a bit of stake in the ability to sort alignment through behaviour,

Leaving Black at E-1 without sorting her alignment through behavior makes 0 sense to me, feels antithetical to what Klick said. This was the perfect time to unvote Black and Klick failed to. Klick may have failed to realize Black was at E-1. At best Klick didn't realize, at worst Klick was content with Black being eliminated page 2.
VOTE: Klick

This post by Kawaii is even worse in context

VOTE: Kawaii

Hmmm

How often have you seen this actually happen?

The only time I've ever seen a page 3 hammer on this site was when a player self voted and dared anyone to hammer him, following which another player decided it was a good policy lim and hammered fully knowing it was a hammer.

Micro 464 is a game I modded where I saw this happen.

Town Doctor was hammered on page 2.

Once 8-1/2 years ago is pretty underwhelming.

I agree with Clap but also holy shit that looks like a crazy game.

I'm still leaning towards klick/dann being scum

Why do you feel dann is scum with klick? Not explaining his klick read?

Not explaining his klick read, his weird interactions with klick; None of it feels really organic at all tbh

Instead of organic you feel it's theatrical? hope dann is delaying explaining his klick read, hope we know why soon.

Yea and if you look at their previous conversation under the light that DE7 shows (potential distancing) The shift in the way they converse after being called out for potentially distancing, with dann instead of suggesting klick could be scum, now is "klick is town but I'm keeping it to myself trust me bro" definitely feels extremely sus

Um what. When did I say Klick/Dann could be distancing???

sorry sorry

i guess i'd lean fakegod here because his townread on me felt off

I don't like this, feels like scum coasting

it's bugging me that black made no indication she knew about the gladiator thing until it was heavily hinted at, so maybe she is just scum here

I think Sky's mind is still here
because Sky actually cares about this
because Sky believes in the argument they were making
because Sky is town

Like I think scum!Sky moves on from this when they realise that no one cares about it at the same level they do
It's no longer relevant in the thread narrative

I do like this read though

it's bugging me that black made no indication she knew about the gladiator thing until it was heavily hinted at, so maybe she is just scum here

Why is this relevant? I wasn't here for this but what? Why does this mean Black may be scum?

Sky thought her townread on Dragon should have been obvious

I didn't think she thought he townslipped because I assumed she knew the sample PMs were in the first post

She thinks I scum slipped because I asked her why she townread Dragon

I-what? I don't get this entirely but it's making slight sense
Being excited at being gladiator = town (since gladiator = town)
Not knowing why being excited at being gladiator is town = scum

There's no way this is a genuine response to the quoted post.

VOTE: Dannflor

So did you vote Dannflor because he voted Kawaii, whom you have meta on but Dann doesn't?
Not accusing but just clarifying.

[NekoLover]

@Dragon

I would like to roll scum with black one day

Doesn't seem very fair to the town now does it

Rolling scum with you would be fun but I think hydra'ing with you would be even better

I don’t really like hydraing but maybe one day I’ll change my mind

Black town

I'm curious where this read comes from

Nice distancing, I'm apparently too good though cause I'm seeing right through it.

[DragonEater70]

Dann/Black is not the same as Dann/Klick though

[NekoLover]

Dann/Black is not the same as Dann/Klick though

OH my bad, For some reason my brain thought it was dann/klick

[DragonEater70]

Spoiler: catchup post full of one-word responses

fakegod's townread on me also feels off idk

Why

i think there are some people on this playerlist who might be likely to follow me onto the wagon of my choosing

sure

VOTE: clap

Don't likey

I feel like the reads in this game have splintered all over the place over the last few pages. It feels unnatural and is probably caused at least in part by scum

What do you mean?

kawaii is just asking a lot of nothing questions and kind of commentating the game

i don't super feel they are invested in finding scum

They do that as town

I concur, I think it's playstyle

My source is this game

What is your read on Dannflor?

I lean town
His approach feels very naturally similar to this game
I like his progression on me and him using his weight to project a townread on you
It feels like he cares about that for town reasons and not scum-trying-to-get-townread reasons

It's not solid, he obviously understands optics well, but I think he's +town atm and don't want him gone today at all

Agreed

yeah 504 seemed off to me too, and i'm skeptical that klick townreads me here. the reasoning for the townread feels like a reach too

Who are you saying this to, and why do you think it's a reach?

I don't think I'd want to drop a flat townread on your slot if you're town and I were scum, frankly

Agreed

Meh

I promise I'll read everything that transpired since my fight with Black at SOME point, but I am not sure it will be today because like Black I also got a job recently and have less time for mafia during the day.

And I already have plans for this evening.

I am still anti-voting Klick and will continue to do so until I see a good case against him (which I haven't seen yet. 504 is a pretty NAI post).

Also if Klick is Dann's partner we should vote Dann.

Maybe dragon is scum

I don't see who Dragon is scum with in this scenario though
Like in a vacuum I can see why 579 looks scummy. But most variations of scum!Dragon should be pretty satisfied with the game narrative and not have a huge reason to draw attention peddling the Klick/Dann theory

If it were like Dragon/FakeGod, then I'm not sure why Dragon is putting pressure on us just as FakeGod has removed his vote on me. It's discordant
It's weird from a Dragon/Clap team as well

I could maaaaybe see Dragon/Kawaii coordinating in this way?

Funny post

Also I might be sick

I wasn't planning to catch up today but now I am planning even less.

Btw I was sick but am healthy now!

I like that Clap preemptively looked at both Dann's meta and my meta. He didn't try to flaunt that he did it but instead he brought it up when it was relevant or he was asked about a read. It makes me feel like he's trying to solve the game and I'm back to thinking he's probably town

Agreed. But when did you previously call him town?

Currently I have black, neko, de70, and you north of null

Why did your opinion of me change

First, some players I town read said this isn't your scum game.

Second, I did some meta and agree with your self assessment that you handle pressure better as scum.

Interestingly, I was doing meta on you and dann, and came across a scum game of yours where you replaced out, and dann took the slot. I thought that was pretty funny. But yeah, you were getting pressure, and you weren't freaking out.

Yeah this is a good post

do you have recent thoughts on claptastik

Yes. Very town.

Is the reason that you're skeptical I townread you related to me generally expressing that I find you hard to read in the past?

yea

Okay this is actually towny

i don't like 650

I agree

^ not really liking this post

Town that is aware they are tunneling typically tries to reverse that or reevaluate

"I'm a new player and I need to hold onto something for my sanity" sounds like a pretty convoluted excuse to stop solving

I agree

Per the wiki, back in your day scummy and anti-town were distinct things.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scummy

I've read most of the wiki but unfortunately it's largely outdated.

Jesus christ I can't beat you on anything, can I?

I can't wait to wipe that smirk off your face when you see my flip.

Lol what makes you think I can get you limmed? The site BSDs are in charge, and they're unlikely to follow new guy's lead.

What's "BSDs"?

[DragonEater70]

Dann/Black is not the same as Dann/Klick though

OH my bad, For some reason my brain thought it was dann/klick

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Claptastik]

Big Swinging Dicks. I guess it's an outdated term now.

[NekoLover]

Big Swinging Dicks. I guess it's an outdated term now.

What the fuck does that mean

[Claptastik]

Just like big shots.

[Klick]

Right. Time to solve.

I'm feeling really low energy but I'm hoping I can just sit down and get in the zone

[Klick]

I'm going to start with things that I feel rather confident about atm and want to reaffirm

I think DragonEater and Skygazer are top town and I don't think reevaluating there is productive at all
I'm also going to be writing off Dann and Black for the day - I feel there's stuff there from both of them that feels towny, and while I think they're both strong scum players who could have me feeling this way in the current position as scum, I think we benefit from assuming both of them are town for the moment

Leaving {Neko, Claptastik, Kawaii, FakeGod}

I have felt that Neko is town but that has been vague and past its expiry date so it's due a more concrete examination
I think if Clap is scum here he is playing a pretty solid game, but I think a more critical look is in order
I can't quite identify why I gut townread Kawaii's early approach, and with limited options I lean towards that read just being inaccurate and scum being here
I have looked at FakeGod's ISO for quite a while previously and frankly don't see much of a reason to remove them from the PoE at all, but I'm open to the possibility that they just aren't towntelling in a way that I can pick up on

There's my baseline before starting

[NekoLover]

I've come to the conclusion that trying to sort people out before the first flip is going to be impossible for me, given that I don't know anyones playstyles, so i'm just gonna reset all of my reads to neutral and not try to read anyone before the first flip because I don't have a baseline to compare to

[NekoLover]

If it gets me eliminated so be it because even after reading over logs I don't see anything

[Black]

"Resetting reads to neutral" doesn't really feel like something I would be able to do as town. Even without prior knowledge of playstyles or anything, there are just going to be people you should find less or more likely to be scum/town

[Black]

Neko what are your thoughts on Kawaii?

[NekoLover]

"Resetting reads to neutral" doesn't really feel like something I would be able to do as town. Even without prior knowledge of playstyles or anything, there are just going to be people you should find less or more likely to be scum/town

Not at all, 90% of this day 1 is just "They acted like this in this scum game" and at this point I legitimately have no reads on anyone because most of it relies on knowing each others playstyle and metaing the shit outta them

[Black]

"Resetting reads to neutral" doesn't really feel like something I would be able to do as town. Even without prior knowledge of playstyles or anything, there are just going to be people you should find less or more likely to be scum/town

Not at all, 90% of this day 1 is just "They acted like this in this scum game" and at this point I legitimately have no reads on anyone because most of it relies on knowing each others playstyle and metaing the shit outta them

I can see where you're coming from

[Klick]

My only prior experience with Kawaii was in Monkey Business. If I did anything good in that game, it was finding Kawaii as town immediately and repeatedly insisting that everyone kept them alive. I thought Kawaii was obvtown because they seemed to really care about the reads they were giving to the thread. Their takes felt really genuine, and they weren't afraid to go against the grain to give what they believed about the game. They formed a worldview and it showed in their posting.

I don't get any of that here? What I feel from Kawaii's ISO in this game is a lot more cold, removed, and descriptive. It feels like there's a concerted effort to show a coherent thought process, without the oomph behind it. Reading these posts, it feels like Kawaii is developing the complexity of their points as they're making them:

Dann-I like Dann's switch in thought about Clap/Klick in 538 and 542, they show a fluidity in thinking and attention to detail specifically to Klick's words in 504. Though I disagree with Dann's conclusion of Klick feeling performative with replication, I do feel Klick is off this game; letting things happen instead of actively pursuing anyone. Dann's switch in thought is specifically surprising since he defended Klick previously in 324, 328, 332 Is this potentially distancing between Dann/Klick? Yes. Does this feel like a natural switch in thought with Dann reflecting on the game? Yes. Though partner equity between Dann/Klick exists it's lessened with this change in thought.
What concerns me though is this,

Why are you voting Clap over Klick when it seems pretty obvious that there is a bigger appetite for a Klick wagon

i don't feel as confident in my read on klick

i think clap flips scum a lot of the time

i think there are some people on this playerlist who might be likely to follow me onto the wagon of my choosing

if Dann is scum he has the persuasive power to both defend and distance himself from Klick and to convince Black to vote clap twice in 333 (off of klick), and 556 to e-2. in defending and distancing from Klick, Black is a focal point, Dann mirroring her,

I just think it seems really convenient to hop on my wagon despite not agreeing with any of the reasons why I could be scum

I think it’s reasonable for klick to want to pressure you

He doesn’t have to think you are lock scum like dragon to want to put pressure on you to sort you

think klick/claptastik is still my top 360 no-scope pick for a scum team actually

I don't know with Klick I like instantly felt that something was off about how he was posting

This is hard to believe considering you townread him for *reasons* and tried to dismantle his wagon

What I mean by mirroring is Dann being defensive when Black is being accusatory, then Dann reflecting Black's klick read in thinking but not in action. Dann sees Black as town twice in 321 and 545
I agree with Dann in Black being town. When initially reading the interactions between black and dann about klick made sense. If it's town/town both have diverging ways of thinking that end up to close to the same conclusions. If it's scum/town then Dann is pocketing Black. If scum/scum then this is a masterclass in deception especially with this in the game. The back and forth between black and dann feels way too organic to be calculated so I highly doubt scum parity exists between them. Dann's change in and flow of thought is in line with solving so I feel he slightly leans town at the edge of nai; his scum parity in potentially defending, distancing, and derailing votes off of klick weighing dann down. Since Klick is my highest scumread I want to flip Klick to see if Dann is town/scum.

Klick is insanely flippant this game, not only failing to unvote Black in e-1, but noticing she was and straight up not caring,

I was vaguely aware that Black was at E-1. I didn't care that much about it

This is sai, why would town notice and not care? Because it's funny? For the meme? Doesn't make sense to me at all.

Klick continues to not make sense, voting Black again in 260, citing he's happy with the "game running narrative", refusing to elaborate. Why is Klick happy with seeing Black as scum? What info is gained with this view? How does falling into this belief help solve?

Klick keeps going,

and I am going to make your life hard, intentionally

Like what the fuck is this? You don't want to sort me. You just want to be right about me so you can say "OoO I caught scum Black!!11!!"

I'M TOWN

If you're town I'm the wrong person to counter-push. I somewhat understand your concerns about my vote on you, but I feel that most of the votes on me have been just as lazy, and the difference is just that the vote is on you instead of me.

We're in similar spots if you're town. If that's the case then I think the scum are more likely to be in the quieter crowd.

Klick states, "most of the votes on me have been just as lazy, and the difference is just that the vote is on you instead of me"
Why is Klick voting Black without reason and saying the votes on Black are lazy?

It's like saying, "Ik the votes on you including mine are lazy but the votes on me including yours are lazy too"
This whole thing is a giant "No U" that Klick initiated by voting Black only to basically say, "We're the same"
If Klick is town then he makes a really good observation on their mutual positions and scum playstyle. But if Klick is town why is his playstyle so sai? Voting Black a 2nd time (to E-2) with 0 attempt to solve. Like why? Klick even admits he doesn't agree with any reasons to be voting Black,

Klick's townplay is generally very good and I'm legitimately shocked he agrees with some of the reasons being presented against me, so I think it's more likely he's just scum going along with the easy counterwagon

I agree with zero of the reasons but I don't think that means you're town

Klick redeems himself with this unvote,

I think Black is more likely to be town right now. I dont have a lock read yet but im confident i can get a very confident read there given enough time

I have an extremely good record of reading Black and if people can find me as town it would be cool if people trusted that

Dragon I believe it’s obvious he wants to catch scum!black and will do so by tunneling her regardless of her alignment so he can say he caught her

UNVOTE:
I'll take this. I'm not really 100% here atm but I'm willing to have a look at what you mean with Clap later

Klick realizing voting Black is a mistake and unvoting her is good play, it's either town Klick waking up or scum Klick seeing eliminating Black doesn't have enough support. Pretty nai but it does lessen Klick's scum behavior since this is town behavior.

Klick then goes onto lead the charge against FakeGod accusing him of having fake thoughts,

I acknowledge that FakeGod had some content in their ISO that looked like solving on the surface
My point was rather that the content itself felt forced, felt like it was driven by what FakeGod wanted to push into the thread rather than what FakeGod thought. It felt like the purpose of their posting was to look a certain way, as opposed to just solving. And that bothered me.

I'm seeing a shift in thought/approach once the 2nd Black vote fell, hopefully Klick is close to a solve he hoped to have in the beginning,

I feel like I'm close to having enough information to try to infer some sort of solve but I'm not quite there yet.

This is what I want most from Klick now. In alignment he's a slight scum lean to me with getting Black to E-2 in the 2nd vote then unvoting her and changing play.

It feels significantly different from what I've just read over in Monkey Business.

I could see Kawaii being scum here

[Black]

You've played Mafia before though so there should be things you think are more or less likely to be scum indicative. Meta is used but it shouldn't be the leading factor in any case, unless it's just obvious

Can you go over what you think about kawaii so far?

[Black]

^ @Neko

[Klick]

"Resetting reads to neutral" doesn't really feel like something I would be able to do as town. Even without prior knowledge of playstyles or anything, there are just going to be people you should find less or more likely to be scum/town

Not at all, 90% of this day 1 is just "They acted like this in this scum game" and at this point I legitimately have no reads on anyone because most of it relies on knowing each others playstyle and metaing the shit outta them

I can see where you're coming from

Hiya
I'm doing Neko next, and atm I'm very much back in 'Neko is obvtown' camp
But I don't know how effectively I can put the read into words

It would help quite a bit if I could dialogue it with you if you're around for a bit

[Dannflor]

my gut instinct about neko is that new scum often use the "idk what's going on i have no reads" as a shield, however, i feel that neko is different because there seems to be some genuine frustration around not getting a bead on anyone. that is, it seems more like a genuinely difficult situation for neko to be in and not just a convenient position to take up.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: kawaii

[Klick]

A very succinct summary is that Neko reads as extremely genuine and is having legitimate struggles that he would be having here if he were town, and they'd have to be significantly faked if they were scum

But not only that, they'd have to be

regularly

and

consistently

faked

If Neko is scum why is he reminding us every other post that he is new and struggling to form reads

I believe that most scum with amorphous social deduction experience but no MS experience would be putting in at least minimal effort to avoid using the 'new card' as a crutch
But Neko just looks like he's saying it because it's where his head is actually at

[Klick]

my gut instinct about neko is that new scum often use the "idk what's going on i have no reads" as a shield, however, i feel that neko is different because there seems to be some genuine frustration around not getting a bead on anyone. that is, it seems more like a genuinely difficult situation for neko to be in and not just a convenient position to take up.

Haha yeah