Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[Klick]

At the moment my conditions for a coalition are 'not implosion or Kyouko'

[ssbm_Kyouko]

The thing is they're a mindmeld of thoughts

you had already posted in the thread

and theoretical Kyouko!scum has playing on those exact expressed thoughts as a clear route to not-losing

What posts are you talking about? I would think this refers to me scumreading DV but I posted 360 before 361 obviously.

[Prism]

Coalition Vote Count 0.5

Coalition	Voters
Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance, DeasVail (2)	Ydrasse, DeasVail
Elements, DragonEater70, Ydrasse, Klick, DeasVail (1)	Appearance
Klick, DragonEater70, DeasVail, Elements (1)	Klick
ssbm_Kyouko, Elements, DragonEater70, Ydrasse (1)	ssbm_Kyouko
Elements, DragonEater70 (1)	implosion
Not Voting (3)	T3, Elements, DragonEater70

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to form a coalition.

No coalition has been achieved. The Coalition Phase deadline is in (expired on 2024-01-10 23:00:00).

[Klick]

I didn't interpret 360 as a scumread as much as a 'I don't get the townreads'
It turns into a scumread after DragonEater starts expressing suspicion there

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Meanwhile, I think your increase in vigor is indicative of seeing that you have a chance and taking it

This is a reasonable thought to have if you're town but it's not correct. 474 was for Elements but I think it works as a response for this as well.

I'd say you're either snowed by DV or are scum with him and playing up the familiarity you have

[ssbm_Kyouko]

ok well you missed the point of 360 then

[DragonEater70]

Blergh.

Klick

I need to mindmeld with you and then I can just

know

you are town.

I'm sure we mindmelded this game but the problem is that just like what you are accusing Kyoko of, all the mindmelds were you mindmelding

after

I already said something.

I'm gonna scour your ISO for mindmelds.


Also:

The thing is they're a mindmeld of thoughts

you had already posted in the thread

and theoretical Kyouko!scum has playing on those exact expressed thoughts as a clear route to not-losing

What posts are you talking about? I would think this refers to me scumreading DV but I posted 360 before 361 obviously.

This is correct. I thought there was another post where we mindmelded before I said anything but I can't find it right now. I'm gonna have to scour your ISO as well.

[DragonEater70]

Kyo just sounds extremely genuine here.


I 100% believe 474.

I also don't think she's in her scum meta.

[Klick]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

I'm also crabby about other stuff atm and that isn't helping

[Klick]

I don't think town!Kyouko is impossible but her jump onto myself/DV feels really opportunistic from where I'm sitting

[DragonEater70]

There's also the fact that she actually feels like she cares a lot more than DV feels like he cares, tbh. Like Klick you said you TR DV because he cares but literally every post Kyo made since 360 feels like she really cares and is genuinely trying to solve here and doesn't want to get it wrong. She could have easily just gone with Appearance but didn't.

Pedit: I get why you're annoyed. I think either of implo/T3 or implo/DV are more likely than implo/Kyo tbh.

[DragonEater70]

This is not a complete thought tbh, on my part

I hit preview with the intention of adding more but then I saw your posts and responded.

One sec.

[Appearance]

catching up now

[Appearance]

@Appearance, can you talk me through the reasoning for the changes in your coalition from 342/343/382?

i healed klick because i started to feel at that time that he could possible be towny. it was mostly based of his content and tone. i swapped u and t3 because i started to feel that t3 had lost the aura that initially drew me in and u felt more likely to be town.
i swapped u with dv because i started feeling like he was being too nuanced for how i thought scum would act.
tho really, i would say that u and dv are both townish to me.
my current solve would prob be implo/t3 because neither really seem to have done much pro-town things, tho moreso t3 than implo.

[DragonEater70]

I'm having a hard time seeing why
DV is town. I feel like I can see that he looks
town, but I also see a lot of agreeing. Like "I thought that too" kind of posting, and I feel like that's how scum gets into the coalition the easiest.

This was just a WOW! moment for me because I was having the exact same thought, and Kyo wrote it out before I did.

Generally speaking, I think preflipping under the assumption anyone is scum is actually more fine in this setup than usual because we get sort of a "trial flip" in the coalition phase where partner theories can be put to the test. I think what you've posted here about scum!implo tracks if he is scum -

that likely he has a partner amongst {Dragon/Klick/DV/Appearance/Elements}, otherwise, scum!implo is giving up and hoping that town!{Dragon/Klick/DV/Appearance/Elements} are going to second-guess that coalition if he "blesses" it. At the same time, his suggested coalition is like, mostly opposite of yours so I don't think he's trying to get any of you to second-guess it, as his coalition is just going to reinforce the thinking that yours is pure. Like he knows he's mistrusted at this point I think.

It's interesting because this analysis is extra analysis on top of what I said (I said implo is setting up for a failed coalition because he knows it will fail). Here she's adding her own analysis which I have not written but which I was thinking similar thoughts to in my head.

I think I might just TR Klick's playstyle

I mean, I know I TR Klick's playstyle toa degree because when I read his scum game in Micro 1094, I was townreading all of his posts.


440 I actually don't particularly like:

Maybe it's just the first post discoloring the one that immediately follows it, but when I said "I TR Klick's playstyle" it's because his posting almost always looks like stream-of-consciousness. I just don't really feel like 364 flows the way Klick's posts normally do. I think it's that the line between being "agreeable" and repeatedly saying "I thought that too" isn't there for me. Maybe I'm remembering DV wrong and conflating "I agree" and "I thought that too", but the distinction is that if he agrees with something he isn't taking any credit for the thought. If he "thought that too" he's ingratiating himself.

Don't really agree with and feels somewhat forced or shoehorned.

I could see Klick-DV as a partnership, I could see DV individually scum, I can see Dragon's point that if implo is scum it would be with one of these two

Pairing DV and Klick is DEFINITELY not something I had written but it's still something I had mindmelded with Kyoko on. I had it at the back of my mind for a while.

I think I vibe with what Klick says when he's not talking about DV

More mindmeld.

And yeah, DV makes a good point in 367 - I think that's why Klick's response to it looked natural again when his recent posting about DV did not look right. Because DV does make a good point, so it's natural to point it out in 370:

Took me a while to parse this but I think I understand what Kyo means and I don't really disagree?


Now this post, just really feels towny to me:

I want to say Appearance is the heal but I don't see any

substantial

explanations for their reads in their ISO, and he's been questioned on it twice. He just gives low-content answers probably to help preserve the anonymity of the alt if he is town here.

I like 408:

ngl i'm starting to worry that scum's plan is not to get into a coalition but to prevent us from forming one.

But I'm not convinced this isn't something scum who is doing this exact thing can't post.

That said, looking at his actions in heals/hurts leading up to 408, it does seem like he's not doing that thing. As in, he

is trying

to form a coalition before deadline.

@Appearance, can you talk me through the reasoning for the changes in your coalition from 342/343/382?

I think the fact that Kyo is leaning on an Appearance heal but actually questioning it, feels organic. She sort of SR's him but then shoots down her own SR in the same post and while this

could

be faked, to me it reads like town really wanting to be right and consider all possibilities, and yes also making sure to show her thought process.

[Appearance]

that being said t3 focusing on implo is also a major factor.
and the only tr i think he seems to have is me? from like ages ago and it was something along the lines of "appearance is likely town but i don't know his experience"

[DragonEater70]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

This point is going to look really really funny if you are town and DV is scum and then we win by swapping you and DV for Kyo and Ydra.

It would look even funnier if all four of you are town and the scumteam is exactly T3/implo but idk if that's the case.

[DeasVail]

Meanwhile, I think your increase in vigor is indicative of seeing that you have a chance and taking it

This is a reasonable thought to have if you're town but it's not correct. 474 was for Elements but I think it works as a response for this as well.

I'd say you're either snowed by DV or are scum with him and playing up the familiarity you have

The “you’re either snowed by DV or are scum with him” part here appears excessively confident in the scumread of me, and actually not showing the critical thought that I would expect of kyouko as town here, who has shown that they are a critical thinker.

Me/Klick as a scumteam would possibly explain Klick’s increased motivation compared to other scum games (though even then I wouldn’t count on it), but otherwise we are playing very badly as a scumteam because we are trying to set up a coalition with both of us in it, that we are perceived as responsible for, which would obv fail in that world. If the coalition fails then klick, and especially me, become the natural next targets.

[DeasVail]

Dragon, it’s also amusing to me that your “mind melding” with kyouko is actually an example of what kyouko finds scummy about me

[DeasVail]

I think it does point to a broader discussion about mafia game approach. There are certainly town games (and scum games) I’ve played where I have more aggressively pushed a player/players as scum but I have found that my townplay is best when focused on bringing fellow townies together towards a common goal (my play at the end of TM 2021: A normal roguelike is a good example of this). In particular at the moment in this setup, finding common townreads seems more pressing than pushing a scumread.

[Appearance]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

This point is going to look really really funny if you are town and DV is scum and then we win by swapping you and DV for Kyo and Ydra.

It would look even funnier if all four of you are town and the scumteam is exactly T3/implo but idk if that's the case.

i mean, what has t3 done this whole phase?
tbh i'm all for you including ydra and kyo in the coalition.

[Appearance]

but at this point, it's very likely t3 is either scum or dead weight.

[Appearance]

so, it would not surprise me if scum is exactly t3/implo.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Meanwhile, I think your increase in vigor is indicative of seeing that you have a chance and taking it

This is a reasonable thought to have if you're town but it's not correct. 474 was for Elements but I think it works as a response for this as well.

I'd say you're either snowed by DV or are scum with him and playing up the familiarity you have

The “you’re either snowed by DV or are scum with him” part here appears excessively confident in the scumread of me, and actually not showing the critical thought that I would expect of kyouko as town here, who has shown that they are a critical thinker.

Me/Klick as a scumteam would possibly explain Klick’s increased motivation compared to other scum games (though even then I wouldn’t count on it), but otherwise we are playing very badly as a scumteam because we are trying to set up a coalition with both of us in it, that we are perceived as responsible for, which would obv fail in that world. If the coalition fails then klick, and especially me, become the natural next targets.

I am pretty confident you were intentionally ingratiating yourself to Dragon, Elements, and Appearance. 3 instances of you saying you had the same thought as X before X posted it doesn't seem plausible to me, especially considering how low the activity of this game has been. I think that's plainly scum-motivated. I also need to find 4 people not to heal - you're my top scumread and it looks to me like Klick has a blind spot for you, and behaves a little differently with you, and I think he also lies about behaving differently with you. It also looks like you are treating him at least a little differently than the others because you "agree" with Klick but with others you "already thought" what they posted. Klick has given reasons why I'm seeing his posting around you as different, and has defended your behavior calling you agreeable. I can disprove "agreeable" here but I can see why he would say those things if he's town given his familiarity with you. So I don't know if he's snowed or scum with you, but as long as I need 4 people

not

to heal he's down in those 4 as he could be attached to you.

Idk if I've said this but I think scum getting to be 2-0 inside the coalition is the best case scenario for them (short of no coalition passing). I think the default people will assume if a coalition passes but isn't pure, is that 1 scum is in the coalition and 1 is out. And it then follows that it's easier to find 1 scum in 4 (off wagon) than it is to find 1 in 5 (on wagon). If both scum are on wagon, town will waste efforts hunting for the nonexistent scum off the wagon.

I actually think, and I think most would agree, that Dragon is mostly responsible for the proposed coalition that included you and Klick. I don't think Klick/DV is going through many, if any minds before I brought it up

[DeasVail]

I'm not certain that your posting is from a scum place, Kyouko, but I think that there is a lack of thinking about the reasons behind the behaviour of mine that has bothered you, beyond the thought that "DV does thing I don't like = scum". This could be town relying on pattern recognition scumhunting, or scum trying to push through with reasoning for a scumread, I'm not sure.

In the case of me having the same thought as Dragon, for example, I had clearly expressed a scumread on implosion prior to Dragon making any mention of scumreading implosion, yet that does not appear to have been a consideration of yours. The example of Elements is indeed not something I had made mention of beforehand, yet even the "i had that thought too" with Appearance I believe was kind of organic, where Appearance mentioned vague concern of scum distancing, and I went further on that and provided a specific example in DragonEater/Klick.

When it comes to me and Klick, the difference in interaction is probably best explained by our increased familiarity with each other (which Klick has clearly mentioned, so it's odd to me that this hasn't been a consideration in your interpretation of our interactions). I do understand that this sort of thing can make the game less fun for others, and so I haven't wanted things to become too... "cliquey" (lol), but it is probably natural that I would interact with him a little differently. Plus, particularly compared to appearance and elements, Klick has probably produced more content that I've been able to engage with on a reads level (and his reads appear to be aligning more with mine this game, hence the agreeing).

So on the read of me, I can see how it has come from an identified behaviour and can see why that would be considered scummy, but I feel like with a lot of the "case", there are points where one would think "oh actually this might be happening because X" (for example, Klick and I interacting differently because of increased familiarity with one another), and I wonder whether this actually comes from scum, who obviously need to make up reasons for scumreading townies, and are more likely to push on with a read despite flaws in reasoning, because as scum they know that their reads are inherently flawed.