Open 901 - Normal Idea Mafia Redux - Postgame

[Skygazer]

i am a neighbour by myself lol

[Jake The Wolfie]

i am a neighbour by myself lol

What a cruel Moderator we have.

[JacksonVirgo]

I mean the chances were pretty low. There's 3 town and 3-nontown neighbour roles

[JacksonVirgo]

Excluding neighbourizers like my role and the 1-shot loyal neighbourizer

[Jake The Wolfie]

To not even employ normal GIM tactics and give this neighbor a pair is a cruel and unusual punishment.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm twiddlin' my toes waiting for you Jake

[Alianna]

3.06

Votecount 3.06

Skygazer (E-1): SirCakez, Argonauts, lucca261, Black
SirCakez (2): JacksonVirgo, Skygazer
Black (1): Jake The Wolfie
shaddowez (1): Save The Dragons

Not Voting (1): shaddowez

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-05 20:12:42).

[lucca261]

my PoE

Argo/Black are my biggest townreads, not voting them today
Don't see either JV/Cakez or JV/Jake as SvS. Maybe there's SvSK in there, but very unlikely they're partnered. I think at least one of the claims is true. I'm going back and forth all the time on Jake tbh, will re-read their ISO today to try and get a better conclusion

That leaves STD, Skygazer, Shaddow.

I could go either way. Warming up to Shaddow again, as his effort level seems more inconsistent. He just posted on the thread when he was being wagoned and disappeared afterwards. I was starting to like him more on end-of-D1/D2 because of the Jacob/Macho Man read, but the flip was not good to him.
@789 is weird because Shaddow was scumreading the slot since the start of the game, feels like he was hedging his bets or at least knew Jacob wasn't flipping scum. In fact, you could say Mucho/Jacob was his only consistent scumread. He was on me for a hot minute on D1, went away just after I started looking elsewhere. Was conveniently on Invis, creating a read just after the wagon started. So pushing 'ehh, I was starting to scumread him' is a little untrue.

STD is the same. I still see the detached 'see how I care' townie play. I see nothing at his ISO that indicates motivation as per @1266. The random townreads of him makes me feel even more uneasy and he makes sense as partnered with like everyone because of it. JV and Cakez townreading him while Jake voted him randomly on D1 and then didn't on D3 when there was a start of a wagon on him makes me uneasy, because I don't see JV, Cakez and Jake all being town together.

Skygazer let's wait just a bit as while I'm writing this I believe there was a claim so let me read first

[Save The Dragons]

I haven't read the last several pages but I looked through them and saw a lot of Jackson/Jake stuff and a Jackson town case on me. Low-key worried about Jackson knowing my alignment but I need to actually read them tomorrow when I get the chance

Lurkers be lurking this game. Frequent lurkers are kinda annoying. They can just do nothing as scum and when you push them people say "oh they always play like that"

At some point we gotta hold these people accountable by just yeeting them. Yeah I'm looking at you listmods

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm twiddlin' my toes waiting for you Jake

Twiddle faster.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm twiddlin' so fast they're about to fall off

[Save The Dragons]

How can I be partnered with everyone

[Jake The Wolfie]

How can I be partnered with everyone

polyamary

[lucca261]

ehh, I don't think the claim changes my opinion on the slot as it's a safe bet, but could very well be true

the thing about Skygazer that gives me pause is the voting pattern on D1. First Macho, then Argo, then Invis. Two slots we know now are town, and Argo. Specially given the "consolidating" comment on one of the voting posts (@543), as it's a pre-defense justification from Skygazer who hasn't been that open with his thought process on any of the other votes.
there were some other posts which concerned me also like @544 or @576

---

as I pointed in @713, Argo's wagon was composed by 80% of the players who ended voting Invis out.

Invisibility (EXECUTED):

shaddowez, Black, SirCakez, Jake The Wolfie, Save The Dragons,

Hu Tao,

Skygazer,

Roden

Argonauts (5):

Invisibility

,

Save The Dragons, Black

,

Roden

,

Skygazer

That indicates to me that Argo's wagon had scum in them. Of the three players both on Argo and Invis, I think Skygazer is a little more scummy than STD so I'm voting them.

[lucca261]

been meaning to do a post like this for a while finally I got motivated

[lucca261]

How can I be partnered with everyone

I think a lot of players are acting weirdly about your slot

[JacksonVirgo]

Eh taking too long
VOTE: Jake

[JacksonVirgo]

It's Jake or Shadow for me today I think

[Argonauts]

i'm back!
~o

[Jake The Wolfie]

How was the Odyssey, poet?

[Jake The Wolfie]

Spoiler: nimi sinpin, Wall of Text

(68) "You put into words what I was pretty much thinking about Clap's question"

I liked this at the time because it felt like we were on the same wavelength, I felt the way Clap was speaking was incredibly obvious to be the way I was explaining it and when Black said that she agreed with me it made me feel two things. One of which "showed" me that I am on the right path which idk if you got this impression yet, is very important to me and also if she did truly think this way that it's a good sign that we're thinking on the same wavelength, which is townie. Of course just from this one post you can't really know if it's true or not, not saying that it's obvious that we were (and she's not pocketing me) but it's what made me start vibing with her.

I wanted to check if she had her own thoughts on that or if she was copying my reads, so I asked her what her conclusions were to it and it was different than mine. Which is a really good sign to me, cuz she could have just agreed and said that we both had the same line of thinking (for if it were a pocket attempt) but she didn't. She responded to me with her own beliefs on her wrist, misunderstanding what I was saying. So it truly was a "mindmeld" of sorts but she was misunderstanding me.

I doubt scum would take the effort to purposefully fake a misunderstanding only to just agree with me at the end. That takes a lot of weird backwards ass logic to assume so Occam's razor just tells me that it's her true thoughts and that we were mindmelding. Which is a huge deal for me.

And in 149 they posted something that I myself was thinking (aka they were posting in a way to make me look bad), but didn't say which is the inverse of what happened earlier in the game which again is a huge sign. They follow up in their next post with posts that was not along the same line of thinking and calling out lucca, but trying to understand their pov.

Their town-read on me (and lack of reads on anybody else as of 194) makes a lot of sense from a town!black pov as I am a person who said what she was thinking but that may be injecting what I town-read people from into her so take with a grain of salt.

297 feels like they're genuinely giving Mucho the light of day to open themselves up and show us what they're made of rather than pushing because it's easy. They weren't afraid to say that they don't have scum-reads and they're just voting for the sake of wagoning somebody. It feels raw and pure to me.

432 Black addressing Skygazer this way (after voting them) in a way that gives them an out. It seems like a question that if coming from scum was made to make Skygazer look bad/worse, giving a reason for the ADHD seems unnecessary and not like something Black would be thinking of instead just remove that sentence to lessen Skygazers social positioning in a sense. This one is a little iffy cuz I don't really know but it's what I had thought in the moment, I don't myself hold much weight to this one.

I like both 616 and 618 as it shows they're giving the game critical thought rather than pushing and casing those they think they can/should be pushing.

855 was another example of saying something that I was thinking, although this was an obvious one that I feel scum could and would catch. When this happened in the moment I figured Jacob was just talking about TRing the hydra and has nothing to do with the "if this flips red" cuz that's silly.

Black could have very easily just followed me in my Cakez vote, but they didn't they voted off in their own reads which I like. When I explain to them that I town-read STD they genuinely started trying to get in my brain to understand me it feels like instead of just disregarded my TR (which they could have done considering I started taking pretty vaguely and then elaborated only after they asked me more questions) and just pushing anyway. Them readdressing the reads of "lack of towniness" of all their PoE is the only thing I don't really like but that's NAI I think, or I wanna think it's NAI anyway.

When you made your case against Black, Black's rose-tinted glasses analogy fits perfectly with how I see you making your arguments so it feels like a pure and genuine response to your wall-case.

Before I dive into my thoughts on this, I would like to state my general appreciation with the text. While I don't agree with its' conclusion, this was well written and a useful resource.

Point 1

, in this conversation, Black takes the position that some town players are likely to care about their self image, while Jackson takes the position that most wolves are likely to care about their self image. Both of these positions are reasonable, and Black ends their end of the conversation by agreeing that Jackson's position is reasonable.
For my analysis, this is more or less NAI. It would be expected for any alignment to agree with Jackson's position here.

Point 2

, Black makes the observation that Lucca either scumread Jackson or (what I believe Black had more faith in) Lucca was attempting to shade Jackson. She follows this up with a question to Lucca:

[...]
Do you think there are differences between his play in that game and in this game?

After a while and a reminder from Black, Lucca answers that the two games didn't have many similarities that he could see.

Now, regardless of whether Lucca was scumreading Jackson or shading him, this is a normal response to Lucca's actions. While I might take issue with Black's uncertainty and lack of a clear interpretation of Lucca's actions [Was this a scumread by Lucca, or was this shading from Lucca?], I think that these two posts are more or less unremarkable.
With the question pointed at Lucca, I get the feeling that it feels a little iffy. This is by no means an attack on Black, but it feels like a weird question to be asking Lucca.

Point 3

, Black (among other things) shares that they like Jackson, but feel mixed about everything else.

You've provided one minor criticism of this point yourself, but I would like to bring something else up. Remember 149? Black provided what I called a lack of a clear interpretation. This is a bit of a reach, but the combination of these two posts [149 and 194] suggests that Black hadn't formed an interpretation of Lucca's action, instead listing out the two most likely options. I find this to be suspicious, but not outright wolfy.

Point 4

, Black backs off Mucho stating that while she was hard to read, Black could see some solving from behind the mask. She then moves her vote onto Shadez, stating that she had no scumreads at this time and was joining on a wagon.

For the first part of this, I think that this is NAI. Given the context of Black up to this point, she has been more laid back and chill. If she were a wolf, she might not want to engage with Mucho because of this context, a deviation of what a wolf might be expected to do. [Going after a player for hiding behind a posting gimmick.] A town Black would, naturally, be telling the truth here and be wanting to move on.

For the second part of this, I would like to conjecture that this is posturing by Black. Consider posts 329 and 330. These two posts are continuations of Black lacking wolfreads, without much effort in trying to obtain wolfreads. Why do I say this is posturing instead of frustrated town?
Black had a few opportunities, between post 297 and 329, to engage with current events, however she opted not to do this.

Could this be town-motivated? Certainly. Her next posts engage with the game as it happens. Do I believe that town would make these posts? I don't know, I would suspect not.

Point 5

, Black questions Skygazer regarding their lack of interaction with the game. This is a continuation of questioning that Black started after Skygazer replied to her original vote on them. The exchange ends when Skygazer admits to have only read a few pages, with Black giving them a townlean from it.

Like with point 3, you've erred on the side of caution with making this point. I don't have many notes here; Black could've pointed Skygazer in a useful direction here, but it's not wolfy of her to not have. The main issue that I might have will be elaborated in the next point.

Point 6

, Black responds to a post by Argon which defends Jacob's slot, questioning Argon on what their read on Jacob was and pointing out that they've defended Jacob a few times. Argon responds with no knowledge of these defenses. Black in turn points out two instances of Argon defending Jacob's slot, followed with both another ask of their read on Jacob and stating that she doesn't scumread Argon for this behaviour.

The initial question by Black feels off to me. Why should Argon's read on Jacob dictate whether they can defend another player? This may be a difference of opinion, but from my perspective it shouldn't matter what your read on a player is. I'm sure you'd agree, Jackson, that even if a player you lock!Wolf was attacked with an awful argument, that you should still be able to defend them from that argument.
Regardless, I think that Black's tone between post 616 and 618, being more aggressive in the former and diplomatic in the latter, is a little suspicious to me. If I were to try to put it into words, it's as if Argon's response was unexpectedly lax to Black and they had to tune it back to not look outright hostile.
This is complete speculation on my part, and if someone could vouch that Black is just like this I'd be willing to drop it.

Point 7

:

Anyway, if this flips red then the hydra is incredibly townie

Agreed to that

Well, you're right that it was obvious enough to catch, given that Lucca did before Black in post 853. Not by an insignificant time margin, either. It was more or less 30 minutes, certainly enough time for Black to have seen that Lucca replied. Regardless, this is NAI 7 ways to Sundaye.

Point 8, Finale.

There was something interesting that I caught in that interaction between you and Black. You had responded to it, even. It was this tidbit:

I do

Ok. Why?

Mostly from their predecessor, who leaked entitlement like it was sweat and that was incredibly townie to me. Going back to the very early game and their interaction with me it didn't feel like scum at all and considering it was us "swinging" at each other that's pretty telling to me as usually in that circumstance just through inherent bias you get the feeling of scum when someone pushes against you or at least it does for me and I didn't get much of an ounce of scumminess from Clap while disagreeing entirely with what they were doing. It feels pretty cut and dry to me
[...]

Can you point out what entitlement you saw?
[...]

Now this is more strange than suspicious to me, but this post puts into focus the fact that Point 1 (the agreement that you two achieved,) was not about what had happened over the course of this game, but rather was about Mafia Theory.


I shall take a bow, to avoid the death glare that Jackson will give me for not spoilering this wall post.

[JacksonVirgo]

Oooo thank you sm, will get to that soon

[JacksonVirgo]

Out of respect I'll UNVOTE:
VOTE: shadow

[JacksonVirgo]

Before I dive into my thoughts on this, I would like to state my general appreciation with the text. While I don't agree with its' conclusion, this was well written and a useful resource.

Oo thank you :D I'm interested to see what you think of it because inherently I'm pretty confident they're Town. Going into Lucca's joke more, we're at like the far extremes of the same person and that's hilarious

Point 1

, in this conversation, Black takes the position that some town players are likely to care about their self image, while Jackson takes the position that most wolves are likely to care about their self image. Both of these positions are reasonable, and Black ends their end of the conversation by agreeing that Jackson's position is reasonable.
For my analysis, this is more or less NAI. It would be expected for any alignment to agree with Jackson's position here.

It's not about the outcome that I'm reading into, just because somebody agrees with someone else doesn't make it AI (on its own anyway). I think that the way they were doing it and the way they followed up that showed natural progression on a read rather than one forced to change because of foolproof logic from the god amongst men, JV

Point 2

, Black makes the observation that Lucca either scumread Jackson or (what I believe Black had more faith in) Lucca was attempting to shade Jackson. She follows this up with a question to Lucca:

[...]
Do you think there are differences between his play in that game and in this game?

After a while and a reminder from Black, Lucca answers that the two games didn't have many similarities that he could see.

Now, regardless of whether Lucca was scumreading Jackson or shading him, this is a normal response to Lucca's actions. While I might take issue with Black's uncertainty and lack of a clear interpretation of Lucca's actions [Was this a scumread by Lucca, or was this shading from Lucca?], I think that these two posts are more or less unremarkable.
With the question pointed at Lucca, I get the feeling that it feels a little iffy. This is by no means an attack on Black, but it feels like a weird question to be asking Lucca.

I understand that you cannot have the same perspective that I do regarding that, as it's not about you and you didn't have the same reaction that I did (that Black had said) but that is a pretty huge deal for me. The main thing I tried disregarding my personal perspective about and talk about is the progression they had with it (which is a common thread I am just now noticing). She isn't stick on her current line of thinking, it feels like she is genuinely trying to understand more even if she believes the things she believes.

Point 3

, Black (among other things) shares that they like Jackson, but feel mixed about everything else.

You've provided one minor criticism of this point yourself, but I would like to bring something else up. Remember 149? Black provided what I called a lack of a clear interpretation. This is a bit of a reach, but the combination of these two posts [149 and 194] suggests that Black hadn't formed an interpretation of Lucca's action, instead listing out the two most likely options. I find this to be suspicious, but not outright wolfy.

I don't see a lack of clear interpretation in those posts, I see she's confident that it was made to make me look worse which was what I had concluded as well. Can you elaborate further as to why you see it the way you do?

Point 4

, Black backs off Mucho stating that while she was hard to read, Black could see some solving from behind the mask. She then moves her vote onto Shadez, stating that she had no scumreads at this time and was joining on a wagon.

For the first part of this, I think that this is NAI. Given the context of Black up to this point, she has been more laid back and chill. If she were a wolf, she might not want to engage with Mucho because of this context, a deviation of what a wolf might be expected to do. [Going after a player for hiding behind a posting gimmick.] A town Black would, naturally, be telling the truth here and be wanting to move on.

For the second part of this, I would like to conjecture that this is posturing by Black. Consider posts 329 and 330. These two posts are continuations of Black lacking wolfreads, without much effort in trying to obtain wolfreads. Why do I say this is posturing instead of frustrated town?
Black had a few opportunities, between post 297 and 329, to engage with current events, however she opted not to do this.

Could this be town-motivated? Certainly. Her next posts engage with the game as it happens. Do I believe that town would make these posts? I don't know, I would suspect not.

Regarding the first part, Black has shown themselves to use this way of pivoting (as Town) before, it isn't something outside of her town-range. I am not town-reading it because of the consistency but I'm not throwing it away. It seems you're saying it's NAI (the first bit) but then you're explaining logic that I deem to be townie so I'm a little confused. I do see what you're seeing regarding positioning, I want to sleep on that for now and I'll get back to you if I think about it in a degree that's worth talking about.

Point 5

, Black questions Skygazer regarding their lack of interaction with the game. This is a continuation of questioning that Black started after Skygazer replied to her original vote on them. The exchange ends when Skygazer admits to have only read a few pages, with Black giving them a townlean from it.

Like with point 3, you've erred on the side of caution with making this point. I don't have many notes here; Black could've pointed Skygazer in a useful direction here, but it's not wolfy of her to not have. The main issue that I might have will be elaborated in the next point.

I don't have much to say either except that if Black were trying to be positioning themselves to push the "slackers" more, I don't think Black would frame it in the way that they did assuming this is not just her personality. I'll wait to see what the next point is

Point 6

, Black responds to a post by Argon which defends Jacob's slot, questioning Argon on what their read on Jacob was and pointing out that they've defended Jacob a few times. Argon responds with no knowledge of these defenses. Black in turn points out two instances of Argon defending Jacob's slot, followed with both another ask of their read on Jacob and stating that she doesn't scumread Argon for this behaviour.

The initial question by Black feels off to me. Why should Argon's read on Jacob dictate whether they can defend another player? This may be a difference of opinion, but from my perspective it shouldn't matter what your read on a player is. I'm sure you'd agree, Jackson, that even if a player you lock!Wolf was attacked with an awful argument, that you should still be able to defend them from that argument.
Regardless, I think that Black's tone between post 616 and 618, being more aggressive in the former and diplomatic in the latter, is a little suspicious to me. If I were to try to put it into words, it's as if Argon's response was unexpectedly lax to Black and they had to tune it back to not look outright hostile.
This is complete speculation on my part, and if someone could vouch that Black is just like this I'd be willing to drop it.

I had to go look back over the context for this one. While I understand how you came to this conclusion, I don't agree with you. I think it's natural to ask where they actually stand on somebody given they defended a slot repeatedly for whatever reason that could be. I can definitely see possible underlying "agenda" or intent in the words she used in both those posts but I think she's genuinely seeing something line up, and then asking questions appropriately but I do see what you're seeing. Also I do agree with you that I would defend a slot I hard-SR if the logic used against them was awful.

Point 7

:

Anyway, if this flips red then the hydra is incredibly townie

Agreed to that

:thinking:

Well, you're right that it was obvious enough to catch, given that Lucca did before Black in post 853. Not by an insignificant time margin, either. It was more or less 30 minutes, certainly enough time for Black to have seen that Lucca replied. Regardless, this is NAI 7 ways to Sundaye.

Let me take this moment to tell you how I love how you're discussing this with me, making sure to outline what the context is before saying what you think. I love it, thank you.

Point 8, Finale.

There was something interesting that I caught in that interaction between you and Black. You had responded to it, even. It was this tidbit:

I do

Ok. Why?

Mostly from their predecessor, who leaked entitlement like it was sweat and that was incredibly townie to me. Going back to the very early game and their interaction with me it didn't feel like scum at all and considering it was us "swinging" at each other that's pretty telling to me as usually in that circumstance just through inherent bias you get the feeling of scum when someone pushes against you or at least it does for me and I didn't get much of an ounce of scumminess from Clap while disagreeing entirely with what they were doing. It feels pretty cut and dry to me
[...]

Can you point out what entitlement you saw?
[...]

Now this is more strange than suspicious to me, but this post puts into focus the fact that Point 1 (the agreement that you two achieved,) was not about what had happened over the course of this game, but rather was about Mafia Theory.

What are you making of that? If it was mostly about mafia theory, why does that reflect on her alignment. I'll wait to say my full thoughts for when you answer that

I shall take a bow, to avoid the death glare that Jackson will give me for not spoilering this wall post.

Just for prosperity I shall too not spoiler this response

Responses in

Bolded Red

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you're town again, yay