Mini 2331 - Touhou UPick: Anonymous Edition (Game Over)

[Sanae Kochiya]

Am kind of meh on voting out Ichirin, although that role is quite interesting. But we have a few people claiming anti-town powers, + I think this mod would/can/does make decent sounding fake-claims, so overall not going to read much else into the claim. I find the poison mechanic quite interesting

I think Aya last night was NAI, wish we actually had game-content from her

[Sanae Kochiya]

VOTE: ichirin

E-2.
Full claim or you can wait until e-1 if you’d like.

Sure, I'm just gonna get flipped anyways, I can feel it. Not like anyone

really

wants to elaborate on their cases and reads on me.

I am

Medicine Melancholy

, and I poison people. Yippee !

Specifically, my night action lets me increase or decrease people's Poison stacks, up to 3, and my visitors also have their poison increased by 1. The poison does nothing on it's own until

I activate one of my spellcards at night, which increases poison on everyone by 1, and depending on their stacks inflicts Hated, Hated+Macho, or Hated+Macho+Random action redirection for the next day and night.

My other spellcard, also at night, inflicts 3 poison on someone and makes them target my night target as well.

I was rather looking forward to playing around with this role but I don't particularly think I'm going to live for very long either which way now. So thanks.

This bit happens to everyone when you activate that spellcard?

[Clownpiece]

I think it's mostly cause it's in wall format instead of hyperposted

No. I am an odd one out on site, and generally like wall posts.

My issue wes that it was presented as a wall post written by someone who has feelings about wall posts[titling it "GIANT FUCKING WALL" and dropping it in spoiler tags], but then it had several comments that looked like filler content that is just padding it out.

I think this is a fallacy of some sort.
.....
I think this is a fallacy of some sort. In general I think regularly flushing your brain of the idea that scum only play as conniving tricksters or whatever is good for you because scum playstyles can vary comically and they will especially love it if you hand them a townread for it. Rest of the readlist is like, fine, ig.

I think that these two were the worst offenders. Where they comment to call a read basis a fallacy, without commenting on any thoughts on the original poster's alignment for using the fallacy or to comment on the alignment of the people being talked about.

Their inclusion felt like they were going through looking for things that they could easily respond to, to pad out the post with More Content.

And not just those two posts, but a general lack of Real Sorting imo. Like, the strongest scum read that they walk away with ended up just being "Someone Else's Case is So Good" with little of their own individual takes on who is scum this game.

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

Am kind of meh on voting out Ichirin, although that role is quite interesting. But we have a few people claiming anti-town powers, + I think this mod would/can/does make decent sounding fake-claims, so overall not going to read much else into the claim. I find the poison mechanic quite interesting

I think Aya last night was NAI, wish we actually had game-content from her

We are not falling for too scummy to be scum please

[Koishi Komeiji]

i know i just voted Koishi but i do not understand why everyone and their mother took issue with their characterization of Yuuka as "middle-of-the-road"?

what is so horrible about them drawing that conclusion?

I think that peoples issue was that if you read their point by point commentary, it seems like they say a lot more things that point to town, and then people are taking "middle of the pack at best" as a scum read, and people are struggling to reconcile the final conclusion to the supporting evidence.

But I dont think koishi was actually meaning a scum read when they wrote it, so :shrug:

For the record, I knew it was a null read, but the sides of the scale feel weird.

This.

There is a very clear and correct answer here that giving in detail is actively detrimental, but is exactly why I am not worried about this wagon going anywhere in the slightest. And even typing this out is dangerous but fuck it, we ball.

Without going into more detail than you have to, can you clarify who "this wagon" referenced in this post is for?

The one on me.

[Kaguya Houraisan]

Spoiler: Page 60

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

yeah

Spoiler: Page 61

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

My post is pointing out that in response to 1302, they said "I don't think that my reads are forced because Dai's case is so good vs "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads"

1302 calling them forced is irrelevant.

if that is your reading, then i would imagine ichirin thought "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads" obvious to the point of not being worth saying and decided to have a little fun with hir post, as this would fit the sense of humor sie has shown previously in this game

obviously i can't say this for sure because i am not a mind reader, but that was my take on that exchange, and 1483 makes me more confident that my take is accurate

It's less about that and more about how it was worded, like "They're not forced, you can see it with x/y/z" vs "They're not forced because x/y/z" where the first implies they're not forced because it's sie's read and it's also visible from an outside perspective whereas the second implies that the foundation of the read not being forced is those externally visible features instead of just from it being sie's read

---

I think it's mostly cause it's in wall format instead of hyperposted

No. I am an odd one out on site, and generally like wall posts.

My issue wes that it was presented as a wall post written by someone who has feelings about wall posts[titling it "GIANT FUCKING WALL" and dropping it in spoiler tags], but then it had several comments that looked like filler content that is just padding it out.

Sorry this one's a gimme gonna go back to catching up after this but my point is that people wouldn't care about the filler if it was spaced out in hyperposts but because they're conditioned to think wall = carefully thought out (probably the wrong words but the general gist of it) they're primed to hate the filler more than they normally would

[Koishi Komeiji]

It is way too early for me to be awake so I am rolling over and I will process all those new posts when I wake up for real. Kthxbye.

[Clownpiece]

Then I suppose I should directly question this:

it could also just as easily be town who was interested in tenshi reads, but then the thread went other directions and their focus went with it, so they ended up talking about other topics after moving their votes

Given how

incredibly

easy it would be for a townie that genuinely wanted to see Tenshi reactions to try to obtain them (which was the point of the bulleted list in 1496, which I imagine you already figured but I'm explicitly stating it anyway), I cannot fathom the idea that the situation was one where "it could just as easily have been town who didn't". Like, this is p-value-

way

-less-than-0.05 stuff as far as I'm concerned.

I felt like there was an assumption from Kagerou that [Voting Tenshi] on its own would have generated some kind of content from/about Tenshi.

And then, when that did not materialize, they then *did* start asking people about tenshi. But that came later.

At least, that is in line with their response when you asked them that

Spoiler:

- well, i maybe didn't get as much as i hoped directly at the, but i also feel like i've managed to prevent tenshi from just being able to fly under the radar undetected, and it's just that people don't really care about pushing there

actually hmmm

one thing i find weird is how Marisa didn't include Tenshi in her vote pool

VOTE: Tenshi

yeah ik it's dumb counting the vote as that by itself, but it's true

I've lost the plot completely here too.

Just gonna step away and come back with fresh brain.

before you leave give me gun to head a read on Tenshi

And to be clear Dai, I am sitting here and saying that this make Kagerou townie, just that I can see it easily coming from town, and therefore your case that it makes her scum is non-persuasive to me.

[Eternity Larva]

Ichirin's claim itself should be treated as null but i am still staunchly against eliminating that slot

Kagerou's tunnel is incredibly disingenuous here and i'm confused as to how others are not seeing it

their scum read on Ichirin only seems to materialize after Ichirin starts coming for them. they even initially acknowledge that Ichirin's reaction to the pressure early on in the day feels genuine and "extremely towny". it is natural for this to change and evolve, and they do say at one point that they need to reevaluate based on Clownpiece's points, but there's no real mention of Ichirin again for several hundred posts until they start scum reading hir for hir catchup post (which also felt OMGUSy, but this is a minor point)

the Kagerou - Ichirin 1v1 ensues where imo Kagerou does everything in their power to paint Ichirin as scummy and is unwavering throughout the entire interaction. this alarms me when comparing Kagerou's treatment of Clownpiece, the only other player Kagerou has notably scum read during this phase. Kagerou outright refused to explain the Clownpiece early on and only provided some sort of reasoning after i coaxed it out of them. That reasoning did not make sense to me and led me to believe that they only held that read to have a contrary opinion, but they couldn't back it up. Later on, Kagerou does end up casing Clownpiece, but that didn't really go anywhere and Kagerou did practically nothing to get people to see what they were seeing in Clown, who had been a universal townread up to that point.

with Ichirin, Kagerou has been relentless and the approach does not look like one where Kagerou is genuinely trying to determine Ichirin's alignment, but looks as if they came in with the desired conclusion of scum reading Ichirin, and has stuck with that ever since. where was this energy with their Clown scum read for the first fifty pages of the day? why is Kagerou practically silent and cagey about their scum read on Clown but is more than happy to pile onto Ichirin who has been receiving a lot of pressure throughout the day? it is feels like a targeted attack on the most viable mis-elimination for today and people writing Kagerou off as town for engaging in the 1v1 or something is baffling to me

i urge everyone to go ISO Kagerou to see what i am seeing. Kagerou should really be the elimination today imo

[Eternity Larva]

not sure how to feel about Yuuka's vote to get Ichirin to claim and immediate back off upon Ichirin claiming

[Clownpiece]

Spoiler: Page 60

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

yeah

Spoiler: Page 61

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

My post is pointing out that in response to 1302, they said "I don't think that my reads are forced because Dai's case is so good vs "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads"

1302 calling them forced is irrelevant.

if that is your reading, then i would imagine ichirin thought "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads" obvious to the point of not being worth saying and decided to have a little fun with hir post, as this would fit the sense of humor sie has shown previously in this game

obviously i can't say this for sure because i am not a mind reader, but that was my take on that exchange, and 1483 makes me more confident that my take is accurate

It's less about that and more about how it was worded, like "They're not forced, you can see it with x/y/z" vs "They're not forced because x/y/z" where the first implies they're not forced because it's sie's read and it's also visible from an outside perspective whereas the second implies that the foundation of the read not being forced is those externally visible features instead of just from it being sie's read

I have spent too long looking for fan art of clownpiece and Kaguya together to call you my new best friend with, but apparently that simply does not exist. So this will have to do:

[Kaguya Houraisan]

Spoiler: Page 62

I expected my "hey give a reads list" reply to have SOME impact in the thread after people kept bugging me for it but then it just kinda... didn't? Even from the requestor.

So that's weighing on me as something that probably means people don't know what to make of it? I guess?

i do find it extremely concerning that you were able to drag your heels long enough on producing mafreads to have mafreads of "the lowest hanging fruit in the game" and "the current vote leader at a time when social momentum is swinging toward the extermination of that player instead of hir closest opponent" in this game state moment

i don't have the time to investigate whether or not there was any prior indication those would be your mafreads, but that's my wing-jerk reaction from poking my head in while occupied with other things

kinda think the way Ichirin is playing around Dai indicates T/S tbh

to elaborate on that, in a scum!Ichirin world hir play really feels like wanting to lim Dai after limming me by crediting her to the push, and likewise i doubt Dai would be ok with her partner sticking so closely to her

if the last scum turns out to also be someone in a precarious position, i'll maybe reconsider that as a "desperation play" sorta deal but for now there's no real reason to think about that

Why the actual fuck would I push Dai if you flip town?

Turning on someone who started the wagon you yourself earnestly believed in because of a greenflip is a usually very dumb move regardless of alignment.

Do I like causing mass hysteria and panic?

Yes.

based

Spoiler: Page 63

No comment

Spoiler: Page 64

reinsen has been town to our eyes, and if Kagerou is wolf there doesn't need to be a secons scum on the wagon but given that the only off wagon person my read on isn't town is Kaguya, i should look there and decide if there is a second scum on the Ichirin wagon or if it's just Kaguya.

Not voters are you, me (cause I unvoted during V/LA before these wagons got big and literally wasn't here), and Koichi (who you townread)

We are not getting out of the wagonomics classroom with this one

---

My mental state has degraded to posting wordless emoji reactions and zoomer memes, someone save me from this hell

[Daiyousei]

Ichirin's claim itself should be treated as null but i am still staunchly against eliminating that slot

Kagerou's tunnel is incredibly disingenuous here and i'm confused as to how others are not seeing it

their scum read on Ichirin only seems to materialize after Ichirin starts coming for them. they even initially acknowledge that Ichirin's reaction to the pressure early on in the day feels genuine and "extremely towny". it is natural for this to change and evolve, and they do say at one point that they need to reevaluate based on Clownpiece's points, but there's no real mention of Ichirin again for several hundred posts until they start scum reading hir for hir catchup post (which also felt OMGUSy, but this is a minor point)

the Kagerou - Ichirin 1v1 ensues where imo Kagerou does everything in their power to paint Ichirin as scummy and is unwavering throughout the entire interaction. this alarms me when comparing Kagerou's treatment of Clownpiece, the only other player Kagerou has notably scum read during this phase. Kagerou outright refused to explain the Clownpiece early on and only provided some sort of reasoning after i coaxed it out of them. That reasoning did not make sense to me and led me to believe that they only held that read to have a contrary opinion, but they couldn't back it up. Later on, Kagerou does end up casing Clownpiece, but that didn't really go anywhere and Kagerou did practically nothing to get people to see what they were seeing in Clown, who had been a universal townread up to that point.

with Ichirin, Kagerou has been relentless and the approach does not look like one where Kagerou is genuinely trying to determine Ichirin's alignment, but looks as if they came in with the desired conclusion of scum reading Ichirin, and has stuck with that ever since. where was this energy with their Clown scum read for the first fifty pages of the day? why is Kagerou practically silent and cagey about their scum read on Clown but is more than happy to pile onto Ichirin who has been receiving a lot of pressure throughout the day? it is feels like a targeted attack on the most viable mis-elimination for today and people writing Kagerou off as town for engaging in the 1v1 or something is baffling to me

i urge everyone to go ISO Kagerou to see what i am seeing. Kagerou should really be the elimination today imo

This lines up with something I felt in my soul overnight but wasn't able to articulate this morning (especially not in time before I hit the point where I couldn't do more than spot-read). As thanks, I'd like to quote a few posts that are extra amusing in the context of this observation.

I kinda wanna vote Ichirin for this catchup but that would mean admitting clownpiece is probably town

actually this is all theater and they're trying to land clown as the deepwolf

all is well (/sarcasm)

for real idk, i'm kinda warming up to clown, will need to see a flip before i can act confident on this read but i kinda was pretending like she was town for convinience anyways

Well, which ones do you think are bad faith?

You, Kagerou and Clownpiece for sure, Koishi could be trying to coast along without having to give in-depth analysis on me as an easy mislim, as I theorized. Otherwise I think Sanae and Tenshi just aren't really bothering to put in the effort to read me.

That's still like 4 townies at least who are legitimately thinking you're scum, i'm especially curious how clown is "in bad faith" where like, her case on you is quite voluminous

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

Yes Larva, i in fact didn't care about people townreading Clown cause i didn't wanna go anywhere with that read, now i wanna do something about Ichirin so i am in fact doing something about that read

My scumread on Ichirin materializes where sie comes after me because this is the post that makes me think he is scum

I think you're taking things that look surface level scummy without giving it more thoughts, you're better than this Larva

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

"makes me think sie is scum" sorry, i'm writing too fast

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

I am capable of acting differently around different slots

[Daiyousei]

Spoiler: Page 60

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

yeah

Spoiler: Page 61

To actually get back on productive things: I do not particularly think my reads of Daiyousei or Kagerou are forced, because

I am currently reading back through to track people's interactions with the thread, but this is eww.

They only think that their own read is not forced? and for reasons other then "those are my reads" ?

is this deliberately ignoring the context of 1302, or ?_?

My post is pointing out that in response to 1302, they said "I don't think that my reads are forced because Dai's case is so good vs "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads"

1302 calling them forced is irrelevant.

if that is your reading, then i would imagine ichirin thought "I know my reads are not forced, because they are my reads" obvious to the point of not being worth saying and decided to have a little fun with hir post, as this would fit the sense of humor sie has shown previously in this game

obviously i can't say this for sure because i am not a mind reader, but that was my take on that exchange, and 1483 makes me more confident that my take is accurate

It's less about that and more about how it was worded, like "They're not forced, you can see it with x/y/z" vs "They're not forced because x/y/z" where the first implies they're not forced because it's sie's read and it's also visible from an outside perspective whereas the second implies that the foundation of the read not being forced is those externally visible features instead of just from it being sie's read

I have spent too long looking for fan art of clownpiece and Kaguya together to call you my new best friend with, but apparently that simply does not exist. So this will have to do:

wow even pixiv doesn't have anything (or at least not in the corners of pixiv i'm willing to look)

given the plot of lolk i would've thought at least one (1) touhou fanartist would have drawn them together by now

[Kaguya Houraisan]

Spoiler: Page 65

This is NOT A NEW READ folks. I have already had this feeling and coming back to the thread to find them both vote parked on Koishi of all people?

Wait why am I "of all people". Like, I know that you're literally my only cheerleader here right now buuuuuuuuut justify your town read of me? Only a little? I am EXTREMELY worried about how that came about.

A large part of my read requires something I'm not allowed to do.

Or how many times do I have to say I SEE you before you understand that.

If this is not a post restriction please clarify, I'll assume it's a post restriction if you ignore this

Spoiler: Page 66

Roles and alignment being independent is already public info so I'm not reading much from Ichirin's abilities (and a quick check doesn't show anything at the start of the game during the role/username talks that would imply Ichirin is

Ichirin

instead of

Medicine

)

Excuse me for not really seeing how town can use a hated / macho / random action redirection

Simple, you Hated mafia and then kill them faster

[Eternity Larva]

My scumread on Ichirin materializes where sie comes after me because this is the post that makes me think he is scum

can you tell me what specifically in that post convinced you Ichirin was scum? i was not impressed with it either, but for that post to cause such a shift in your playstyle and a completely unwavering tunnel feels opportunistic to me when looking at the rest of your play today.

it is not "surface level scummy". in my opinion your behavior aligns with scum who's part of the PoE elimination pool and doing all they can to deflect onto low hanging fruit in the same position. this, alongside the fact that i've never really held you as a town read at any point, makes me far more confident you are flipping scum here than Ichirin.

but that was a cute way to try and deflect my reasons for suspecting you, try again when i'm not around to debunk them!

[Clownpiece]

If this is not a post restriction please clarify, I'll assume it's a post restriction if you ignore this

That is almost certainly saying "I know your main, so my read is meta based, but I cannot say that out loud without breaking the rules."

[Clownpiece]

I have thoughts about eternity and kagerou's conversation, but it seems prudent to let kagerou answer questions before voicing them.

[Kaguya Houraisan]

If this is not a post restriction please clarify, I'll assume it's a post restriction if you ignore this

That is almost certainly saying "I know your main, so my read is meta based, but I cannot say that out loud without breaking the rules."

I'm proud of the fact that I recognize precisely 0 people in this game

[Kaguya Houraisan]

Anyways I'm caught up, time to pull a Kars and stop thinking for a while

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

My scumread on Ichirin materializes where sie comes after me because this is the post that makes me think he is scum

can you tell me what specifically in that post convinced you Ichirin was scum? i was not impressed with it either, but for that post to cause such a shift in your playstyle and a completely unwavering tunnel feels opportunistic to me when looking at the rest of your play today.

it is not "surface level scummy". in my opinion your behavior aligns with scum who's part of the PoE elimination pool and doing all they can to deflect onto low hanging fruit in the same position. this, alongside the fact that i've never really held you as a town read at any point, makes me far more confident you are flipping scum here than Ichirin.

but that was a cute way to try and deflect my reasons for suspecting you, try again when i'm not around to debunk them!

hir excitement about Daiyousei's case on me feels forced and exagerrated (sie even proved sie didn't understeand that well what it was about when phrasing stuff as if i was "caught red handed" This is absolutely not what the case is about) sie didn't make an effort to generate any material that's hirs about me, and this extremely contrasts with the content on other slots, way shorter and not that conclusives, this makes me think it's sincere (or like, as sincere as scum can be) but sie chose to push me as a way to save hirself

what part ? The part where i'm trying to pull as much heat on Ichirin / me as possible or the part where the case on me consists of "uhhh, yeah they could have pushed tenshi more" (strawmanning but that's to get the point across)

And look, i'm calling your read bad basically, i don't mind you being here to witness it, in fact i hoped it would make you reconsider that what you're seeing in me is in no way scummy

[Kagerou Imaizumi]

If this is not a post restriction please clarify, I'll assume it's a post restriction if you ignore this

That is almost certainly saying "I know your main, so my read is meta based, but I cannot say that out loud without breaking the rules."

I'm proud of the fact that I recognize precisely 0 people in this game

I have lobotomized myself to forget everything about other mafiascum people and their meta