Mini Normal 2334: trees (Day 6)

[Thomith]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

Why do you think it's a good idea to end the day quickly?

Did you reply to the right person?

I already explained why if you mean me.

I replied to who I meant to.

[RationalMadman]

After reading the wiki page in more depth than I originally did I realise 4:9 is not a possible ratio in these Normal setup games, so it's 100% 3:10.

[RationalMadman]

I read it when signing up, in case of confusion when I read it in less detail. I read about Normal setups and am back after some years away.

[RationalMadman]

Okay, I've reread in more detail. I read in ways that can't always be fully explained because I pick up on nuances in tone and underlying motives behind things that may not make sense to others. It's an edge I've had elsewhere but helps a lot in the game of Mafia.

I will delete myself from the list of players and make a list of my main scumreads, with those I don't scumread at all struck out.. This is not just a case of 'they did many scummy things' but that they did things that to me don't read Towny, more than they did things that seem Towny. This does not exclude pure lurkers of sorts, which I'll clarify after.
Elements
DrippingGoofball

DrNickRiviera

Grovyle in a Fedora

Hu Tao

KayJayQueue

SaltiestCactus23
Thomith
camelCasedSnivy

Dannflor

awesomeming327
Gibdo

Now, out of this list, I will clarify who is a genuine scumread (S) vs just on that list due to not doing enough (NE).

Elements S
DrippingGoofball NE
Hu Tao S
SaltiestCactus23 NE
Thomith S
camelCasedSnivy NE
awesomeming327 S
Gibdo NE (I believe this user hasn't even posted at all in this game).

Among the S, I will lay out parts I can explain and aren't just picking up on nuances.

Most of the S have acted towards sabotaging me ending the day fast with a no elim but not all scumread me for it whatsoever, this isn't about that. The game doesn't revolve around me, after all. If I begin with that in mind, I will explain then what seems unnatural for them as Town to be doing, saying or engaging indirectly in.

Hu Tao has fluffed all day phase as far as I can see, let's ignore the 'red role' joke as that's a nulltell, the whole thing from Hu Tao screams 'idgaf and I am just here to mess around'. Some people do have this attitude as Town, however it defaults to a scumread.


Saltiest Cactus seems to have tried earlier on and then disappeared. They could be busy during the weekend and thus the days of this game. They could be many things, what it reads like to me is a player saying enough to avoid being ganged upon for inactivity and then intentionally disappearing. In fact, what the questions asked were, are pseudotowny because they help Scum to analyse who to pick on, frame or whatever else a lot better than they help Town know enough to proceed with. The question how well each player knows others doesn't help Town nearly as much as it helps Scum pick who to frame (a player others know less well and who also knows others less well). The next question 'how do you think you act as town or scum' is a question that has 1 of 3 answers:

1. A skilled player lets you know they play the same as both.
2. A less skilled player tells you they don't know exactly and gives a vague idea of what they think the differences are.
3. Similar to scenario 1 but it's a delusional player who doesn't know their tells.

The answers would only benefit scum, to be honest, since the question is about the self perception of players and not how others see them. It would mean if scum spotted a player contradict what they said about themselves or if a player says they play the same or very similar as both, then it's easier to frame that player.

I don't get how this would help us read others, the question 'what tells do you know others have here' following asking about familiarity would be a much, much townier combo. It's not a slight difference, it's a massive one and is the difference between forced Towny-appearing activity and genuine Towny activity/interrogation. I waited a bit to see if this player would call out all those including me that ignored the questions but he hasn't been participating in this game enough since then to read based on that.



Thomith keeps replying in ways that obviously seem Towny but it's almost like forcing activity for the sake of it. There are many examples of this however, it depends how Thomith sees Mafia. If Thomith fundamentally believes getting people's thought processes on everything related to the game, for the sake of it, is the best ways to get reads then Thomith can easily be Town however such players tend to mimic this type of interrogating as Scum as well. There are some examples where what Thomith is asking or replying is as good as not asking or replying it. This is a very typical trait of players of Mafia, after all if we are all the super lurky 'never talk' quiet type of people we wouldn't be attracted to this game at all or forums in general as anything other than a silent observer. I can't put my finger on what exactly seems scummy from Thomith but the activity seems forced to me.


Elements seems to just be voting whoever seems viable to lead on. That's the consistent combination of voting and posting behaviour from Elements. It seems to others to be aggressive leading but especially when Elements suddenly switched from me as it was clear others weren't joining the bandwagon just now, without explaining the 'why' of the switch, it seems to just be opportunistic. Elements also kept saying she disagrees with nearly everything I said earlier in the game and keeps insisting I'm talking nonsense and to shut up but doesn't ever clarify why I'm wrong or what Elements believes instead. The concept 'setup speculation loses games' in closed setup games is nonsensical however in a simple Normal I think not much setup speculation is needed as over time there's a lot obvious about it. There seems to be an urge from Elements to discredit me leading in any form, this either comes from a Scum aspect if she thinks I'm onto something valid with the no-elim or comes from a Town aspect if she believes I'm genuinely misleading Town over and over. If it were the latter, why aren't the 'whys' of me being wrong being mentioned, she clearly isn't a quiet 'hide away' type of player.

[RationalMadman]

I forgot to explain awesoming scumread, give me a moment. Apologies.

[RationalMadman]

Awesoming came in clarifying to default me to Town for advocating for no elimination. This was followed by clarifying that it's Towny because it's uninformed and a noob thing (implying both that he now has grounds to vote me later for being wrong and that he is calling me stupid/ignorant without directly attacking me while seeming to side with me).

After this, Awesoming suddenly realises I'm not new. So, why say that then? After realising I'm not new, he leaves it dismissed rather than directly engaging me and attacking my logic (which is infallible and can't be argued against, sorry to flex it but it's true and I think he realised this as he read it but left it for later).

In fact, the strangest aspect of all was awesoming having the time to still make some posts but not have the time to read my posts and attack my sound logic for the no-elimination. It is exactly the kind of 'haven't got time sorry' post that Scum that wants to get away with not directly engaging people after saying 'this person is kind of wrong that person is kind of scummy but I don't have time to fully explore, peace out' do during DP1s, laying the groundwork to lead on anyone convenient later and really having sided with 0 people while appearing to.

[RationalMadman]

I don't necessarily scumread Saltiest Cactus, I do believe the issue is lack of followup on asking those 2 questions but the player has been inactive. I wanted to see them force answers out of those that ignored it or see what happens following asking them, basically.

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

I'm going to personally ignore your posts regarding your view on day 1 elimination as its pointless from now on and won't engage (especially helps I townread your slot at this point lol) so yeah.

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

I am down to vote anyone that isn't Grovyle or Dann. If we're going to bandwagon, others lack Towntelling in my eyes.

I've changed my mind
Come VOTE: Thomith
Will help end the day

On the other hand, this is incredibly wolfy lmao.

[Grovyle in a Fedora]

VOTE: elements

[Elements]

VOTE: elements

Can you get Radical to vote someone?
Might listen to you seeing as you're a town read

[Elements]

@Radical
Can you tell me why a fast no-lim day 1 is beneficial for town without any reasoning about a quick day 1 no-lim being bad/unhelpful for the red team?

[awesomeming327]

Awesoming came in clarifying to default me to Town for advocating for no elimination. This was followed by clarifying that it's Towny because it's uninformed and a noob thing (implying both that he now has grounds to vote me later for being wrong and that he is calling me stupid/ignorant without directly attacking me while seeming to side with me).

After this, Awesoming suddenly realises I'm not new. So, why say that then? After realising I'm not new, he leaves it dismissed rather than directly engaging me and attacking my logic (which is infallible and can't be argued against, sorry to flex it but it's true and I think he realised this as he read it but left it for later).

In fact, the strangest aspect of all was awesoming having the time to still make some posts but not have the time to read my posts and attack my sound logic for the no-elimination. It is exactly the kind of 'haven't got time sorry' post that Scum that wants to get away with not directly engaging people after saying 'this person is kind of wrong that person is kind of scummy but I don't have time to fully explore, peace out' do during DP1s, laying the groundwork to lead on anyone convenient later and really having sided with 0 people while appearing to.

I was on V/LA okayge

[awesomeming327]

Anyways no elim d1 is objectively bad but I don't really think w!Rational would argue about this and then continue arguing about it after near unanimous disproval of the strategy
elements voting rational on it seems opportunistic imo

[RationalMadman]

Anyways no elim d1 is objectively bad but I don't really think w!Rational would argue about this and then continue arguing about it after near unanimous disproval of the strategy
elements voting rational on it seems opportunistic imo

It isn't objectively bad, the only people calling it subjectively bad so far have failed to back it up.

[RationalMadman]

@Radical
Can you tell me why a fast no-lim day 1 is beneficial for town without any reasoning about a quick day 1 no-lim being bad/unhelpful for the red team?

If you don't understand that nerfing one team is advantageous for the directly opposed team then idk how to explain it to you.

[RationalMadman]

Also my username isn't Radical.

It is very simple if you understand the more complex parts:

Town gains less than Mafia do from an extended DP1 in this, the reason is that Town don't really gain any setup info beyond what's claimed by the voted-to-elim at L-2 or L-1 and any who CC them. Sure, in theory they gain scumreads and townreads but DP1 reads are notoriously unreliable because different people do just act differently so only if this is a group of regulars that truly have metareads on each other is an extended DP1 potentially favouring Town instead with all the softs and leaks that can happen to other Townies.

Mafia gain more because they gain a lot of reads on who scumreads and townreads who else (helping them to decide which scum member has most towncred and who to frame conversely and even maybe alter which scum member CC's but I won't clarify how they could alter who CC's as more or less trusted member can go either way). They also get better 'aim' potential with their night kill and roleblock or any such action.

[RationalMadman]

The Town loses least and Mafia gains the least in a guaranteed manner from a DP1 fast no-elimination.

Other alternatives are suboptimal gambles thinking that each of the 10 Town member reads 12 others and towntells to 9 others better than the 3 Mafia members towntell to the 9 and are capable of reading PRs vs vanillas based on outcomes, even if they fail they have the ability to force out a CC or be UNCC'd PR depending how their claim goes.

I know it's 3:10 because on a reading of simple Normal Wiki I realised 4:9 isn't a possible setup balance.

[RationalMadman]

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position. PRs don't play the game for town in any sense. Setup balance in normals are contingent on day play helping town, and possible guilties are always considerations. I don't think I can point at any properly reviewed setup in the past 2 years and say "yeah no elimination would have granted good info here over playing out day 1"

Rational imma keep it 100 with you and tell you that 12 people can't be mafia and those 12 people accept the meta of a day 1 elimination and won't rush for you.

More discussion time is what mafia hate, not lack of "info" for a kill. All that happens is X known strong player dies and then we're in a worse position.

Protection roles should default to whoever X is, even if X may be scum, during the DP1 no-elim, as that's optimal. I didn't want to clarify that in hopes it was simply how the instincts of any in that role (not excluding myself being that role, clarifying regardless) would go.

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

[RationalMadman]

Idc what the scum members say so I only care that the other 9 all seem against no elimination. They are incorrect but I have to obey it as conforming to Town members you disagree with is part of the game.

Meaning other 9 town members.

[RationalMadman]

Quoting in this site is something I need to work on, it doesn't go how you think when you type in the box.

[RationalMadman]

let's say L-2 and L-1 means Lim. I realised my error after writing it. I should say E-2 and E-1.

[Elements]

So you're not saying no lim day 1 is good for town, you're saying it's the less bad of two options?

[Elements]

And apologies for getting your name wrong