[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Adel]

Bastard-Mod Cop Town

1 Bastard-Mod Godfather (investigates as innocent, revealed as "Mafia Goon" in death scene, gets Mafia Goon Role PM)
2 Mafia Goons
2 Sane Cops
1 Insane Cop
3 Non-Sane Cops (Random Role: 50% chance of being Naive, 50% chance of being Paranoid. Each one is randomly determined independently of the others)
1 Bastard-Mod Miller (Gets Townie Role PM, revealed in Death Scene as "Mafia Goon")
1 Bastard-Mod Townie/Miller (Random Role: 50% chance of being Bastard Mod-Miller, 50% chance of being Townie)
1 Townie

Cop Head-Start.

[Adel]

Bastard-Mod Cop Town

1 Bastard-Mod Godfather (investigates as innocent

to a sane cop

, revealed as "Mafia Goon" in death scene, gets Mafia Goon Role PM)
2 Mafia Goons
2 Sane Cops
1 Insane Cop
3 Non-Sane Cops (Random Role: 50% chance of being Naive, 50% chance of being Paranoid. Each one is randomly determined independently of the others)
1 Bastard-Mod Miller (Gets Townie Role PM, revealed in Death Scene as "Mafia Goon")
1 Bastard-Mod Townie/Miller (Random Role: 50% chance of being Bastard Mod-Miller, 50% chance of being Townie)
1 Townie

Cop Head-Start.

Seconded.

That sounds interesting.
-Do any of the cops know their sanity?

Cops are almost never told they're not sane, and being sane is only something mods tell cops in games where it is known that sanity issues are not in play. (The same goes for docs, by the way.) I have seen cop/doc PM's where it says the recipient's sanity is in question, though.

All cops get the same role PM. Of the six players that get the cop role PM, 2 will be sane, 1 will be insane (almost as useful as sane), and the other 3 will each either be paranoid or naive.

[Adel]

massclaim letter nine

1 godfather
2 mafia goons
2 cops
2 millers
2 townies

[Adel]

massclaim letter nine

3 mafia goons
2 66% sane cops
4 townies

incorrectly simplified

fixed.

The setup depends upon non-random cop sanity.

[Adel]

in most cases end game will be day 2, and it is all about solving the logic puzzle resulting from the inevitable massclaim. No lynch might be optimal for day 1.

[Adel]

Nope, 6 vs. 3 isn't crazy in this case. It is a logic puzzle. A correct massclaim at the correct time swings the game from being very scum balanced to very town balanced.

Day 1 miller claim + day 1 lynch of claimed miller probably isn't the dominant pro-town tactic. Millers claiming day 1 greatly increases the scum's chances of hitting one of the cops.

[Adel]

Nope, 6 vs. 3 isn't crazy in this case. It is a logic puzzle. A correct massclaim at the correct time swings the game from being very scum balanced to very town balanced.

Day 1 miller claim + day 1 lynch of claimed miller probably isn't the dominant pro-town tactic. Millers claiming day 1 greatly increases the scum's chances of hitting one of the cops.

But forcing the scum into a D1 miller claim makes the logic puzzle start much earlier (this could be arbitrary). It also gives a narrower pool from which the cops need to investigate and has a huge payoff should the town lynch correctly.

how about we make it a cop head start?

[Adel]

Don't Cut the Red Wire!

1 Serial Killer
1 Mafioso
1 Bomb (when targeted for kill, takes killer with him)
1 (ONE-SHOT) Bulletproof Townie
1 Townie

Day Start
Lynches Compulsory
Nightkills Compulsory

It creates an interesting dilemma if the townie is lynched.

was nominated by two people:

I'm noyt sure if its balanced but:

Nominate: Don't Cut the Red Wire!

seems logical. I think I would like

don't cut the red wire.

caboose was on the right track by raising the question:

So what happens here:
Townie Lynched D1
Bulletproof Killed N1
Mafioso Lynched D2

Who wins?

Also, is the SK nightkill immune?

It looks like it would be better for the town NOT to massclaim.

by pointing out some possible conflicts caused by the must-lynch and must-nk mechanics.

These issues, unfortunitly, were not resolved before the game was run:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10486
it was over in 3 pages. result: 1 scum player and 1 town player left alive in D2 with no way for a lynch to occur. The mod ruled it a tie.

from the postgame:

Sorry for wasting your time folks, but this entire game was to prove that it is possible to create an intriguing setup with a fatal flaw that can be easily exploited by anyone paying attention, and then push it through the open game queue without anyone noticing as proof that the open game system is flawed in that it does not check for setup brokenness. There is no way to actually salvage this setup without bastardizing the concept behind it.

<_<

I only chose it because people nominated several times in the Open Game Nomination thread. Next time, mod the game yourself to prove a point.

Note that I did have queasy feelings about how the game would end, and especially why the author of a setup join his game. I guess I should have known better, but me getting hoodwinked by this setup really just points to my noobness as a mod as much as it is the open game system (in which most mods are first-time mods).

Which is why I did this, in fact; to ensure that the first-time mods that populate the open queue get the modding experience they deserve.

Well many wanted to play the game. I think I know a way to fix it but JD in the future how about a little warning to me hmm?

Can't. That would have ruined the point, which was to show that there needs to be more oversight for obviously broken setups in the open game department.

my thoughts:
1. the only real problem with the setup (other than JDodge's lack of sincerity) was in the application of the must-lynch and must-nk special rules. Many of the probable outcomes of the game would result in a draw or otherwise lack a clear winner. Kudos to Caboose for actually catching on, and shame on the rest of us for not following up on his insight.
2. No rigorous analysis of the setup and its probable resulting game states occurred. JDodge (probably for the last time in this thread) was granted the benefit of the doubt for being one of the most experienced mafia players on this site. I figured that the point behind the setup was some sort of prisoner's dilemma for the scum during N1, and that was his "interesting dilemma if the townie is lynched".
3. I don't think that farside22 (the listmod) or SilverPhoenix (the game's moderator) did anything wrong.
4. While there isn't anything we can do about people insincerely suggesting setups, I would like to offer the following change in process:

current process:
a. setup presented
b. setup commented upon
c. setup nominated
d. list mod adds setup to queue if she approves it

proposed alternative:
a. setup presented
b. setup commented upon
c. setup nominated
d. list mod lists the nominated setups she is considering adding to the queue, and asks for players to "

certify

" the setup
e. as a quality assurance step, players who take to time to do a careful review of the setup can "

certify

" the the setup is free of significant errors and oversights
f. listmod adds certified setups to the queue if she is confident of the competence of the certifying scummers.

my list of lessons learned:
1. the informational shortcut of "if the setup is suggested by a really experienced scummer than it must be sincere" can be false
2. the informational shortcut of "if the setup is suggested by a really experienced scummer than it probably isn't broken" can be false
3. so many setups are suggested that it is impossible for one person to deeply analyze all of them. If we had a little warning before a setup is added to the queue then it would be easier for interested scummers to take a deep look and identify problems before they crop up in-game.


~~~

@JDodge, now that you've proven that you can push a broken setup of your design through the review process:

1. What lessons do you think we should learn from this?

2. Which broken Open Game setups motivated you to try your experiment?

3. What other ways did you try to address the problem before you resorted to your experiment?

4. Do you recommend this kind of "destructive testing" to other scummers who think they have identified a problem with some aspect of the site?

[Adel]

Nope, 6 vs. 3 isn't crazy in this case. It is a logic puzzle. A correct massclaim at the correct time swings the game from being very scum balanced to very town balanced.

Day 1 miller claim + day 1 lynch of claimed miller probably isn't the dominant pro-town tactic. Millers claiming day 1 greatly increases the scum's chances of hitting one of the cops.

But forcing the scum into a D1 miller claim makes the logic puzzle start much earlier (this could be arbitrary). It also gives a narrower pool from which the cops need to investigate and has a huge payoff should the town lynch correctly.

how about we make it a cop head start?

Yes good.

Nominate

really like to see a cop fake a miller claim

massclaim letter nine

1 godfather
2 mafia goons
2 cops
2 millers
2 townies

cop headstart (scum can talk during N0 but can not kill)

this is a sincere setup, and I fully expect that it will yield an interesting game for players who enjoy logic puzzles and fakeclaims and don't mind playing "follow the cop".
I suggest that the mod uses short deadlines, like

# of living players * 1.5

(rounded up) with a minimum deadline length of 10 days.

[Adel]

@JDodge, now that you've proven that you can push a broken setup of your design through the review process:

1. What lessons do you think we should learn from this?

2. Which broken Open Game setups motivated you to try your experiment?

3. What other ways did you try to address the problem before you resorted to your experiment?

4. Do you recommend this kind of "destructive testing" to other scummers who think they have identified a problem with some aspect of the site?

1. We need more oversight of the open game queue.

2. None, I just saw the flaw and wanted it fixed.

3. I did not, as I felt other methods of addressing the problem would just be met with a resounding "THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT DOESN'T EXIST".

4. Only in extreme cases, and when done with extreme caution.

then it was a potential problem, and you wanted to fix it. Why didn't you answer Caboose's questions in the thread or participate in the conversation about your setup?

All you proved is that you could leverage your (formerly) good name and reputation to get your crap setup into the queue. It was not a controlled experiment at all. It is an immature prank.

A person could potentially enter your home and kill you in your sleep with a long knife. I think that is a problem, and should be fixed, but I don't think you would believe me if I told you about the problem in an attempt to warn you of the danger.

Oman nailed it. I agree that the open game process needs a more rigor, and I am a natural supporter for most reform efforts, but your stunt would draw a soft ban from MD if I had the power to ban people.

The Open Game design process does need more rigor. For example I think the results of the other open games that had two scum groups of two players (mountianuous multiball, carbon-14 to name two) should be looked at and considered before nominating Two Fold Mafia.

[Adel]

I actually played in the original two fold mafia. It came down to a 3 player end game. I realize the other multiballs didn't go so well, but I think having the threat of cops and a Doc changes priority of scum NK's away from entirely trying to crosskill.

awesome game, thanks for the link. I didn't know it had been run before. I think the number of replacements as well as the obvious (missed Doc and CopA night moves) threw off the balance. I thought you were just rebranding Max's setup.

Thanks for identifying that the setup Max suggested had been used before.

~~~

Nominate Carbon 14

2 Mafia Goons or Werewolves
1 Cop (Only gets guilty on Mafia Goon)
1 Seer (Only gets guilty on Werewolf)
3 Townies

it has been run twice:
Open 107 (10 pages)
and
Open 96 -- Carbon-14 (Game over) before 703 (7 pages)
for 1 town win and 1 scum win.

~~~
the last run of Mountainous Multiball (2 Mafia 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies) Open 72 was a pretty good game, and was won by scum. I think that makes the series 2-1 for town. Would anyone be interested in playing it again?

~~~
the last run of Quack Multiball looked pretty interesting. Open 66

Two goons have the following.

You and your partner (player) are members of the mafia. You may converse during the night phase, and decide between yourselves whose name to send me as your target to kill. You win once there are no werewolves left and your group makes up half of the players alive.

Two werewolves got this.

You and your packmate (player) are werewolves. You may converse during the night phase, and decide between yourselves whose name to send me as your target to kill. You win once there is no more mafia and your group makes up half of the players alive.

Two quacks were told this.

You are a doctor. You may send me the name of someone each night that you'd like to save from death. You win once there are no werewolves or goons left to threaten you and the other doctors.

Six doctors received this.

You are a doctor. You may send me the name of someone each night that you'd like to save from death. You win once there are no werewolves or goons left to threaten you and the other doctors.

As you can see, the quack doctor message and the true doctor message are startlingly different. Thus, you should have no trouble realizing if you are a quack and that therefore you will kill your fellow doctors rather than potentially save them when you target them. Don't worry about the mafia or the poor werewolves, though, as they will not be affected by your incompetence should you happen to target them.

Also note that one doctor's action will reverse one killing action only. Thus, if someone is targeted by only one doctor, but by more than one killer (mafia, werewolf, or quack) then they will die. However, if two or more doctors protect the single victim of two attacks, the target player will survive.

Doctors may not protect themselves.

does anyone else want to see it run again?

[Adel]

Question about Quack Multiball: If a quack targets Doctor A and Doctor B also targets Doctor A, will doctor A die?

doc B will prevent the quack from killing doc a

[Adel]

There are a number of problems here, not least no limitations on who can make/approve setups.

of the setups farside has added to the queue:

• Double Day Mafia
  The New C9
  Fire and Ice Mafia
  Lovers Multiball
  Open93 Near Vanilla Mafia
  Lover Mafia
  Carbon-14
  Bird C9
  Night Watch Mafia
  Mayo Clinic Open
  Crush
  Even/Odd C9
  Don't Cut the Red Wire!
  Bird C9
  Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy
  Impotence Mafia
  Weak M.D. and the Terrified Patient
  Unclean Mafia v.2
  Gurgi EC8
  Immunity Mafia
  Paris Mafia
  Tread Carefully
  Masons and Mafia

which setups do you have a problem with?

[Adel]

Lovers. Red Wire. Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy. Fire and Ice.

That's just from memory...

I think we've covered Red Wire.

Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
2 Masons
1 Backup Mason (becomes mason upon death of either mason, isn't informed of being backup, i.e. initially gets a vanilla PM)
5 Vanilla Townies

Fire and Ice

2 fire mafia
2 ice mafia
1 bodyguard
9 townies

if fire and ice target the same player their kills cancel out

Lovers

2 mafia lovers
4 townies
nightless
scum can daytalk

Question: Is the purpose of the Open Game Queue to move things along as fast as possible?

Be honest, please; I see an awful lot of terrible setups here those primary advantage seems to be that they can be played quickly, either to get around the months-long-game syndrome or the year-long-mod-queue in Mini Normal.

I'm not throwing rocks, I genuinely want to know if people believe in the setups they nominate. I've commented on a few genuinely bad setups, but I don't read this thread very often, because most Open Games don't appeal to me. When I do come here, I see a lot of 5-9 player games with lots of killing roles, Lovers, and other ways to increase the body count/speed. New C9 is the standout exception.

Maybe I'm selectively reading. Maybe I'm missing something. That's why I asked. But it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me that of the first page of Little Italy, completed Mini Normals have an average length of 749 posts, while Open Games have an average length of less than 479 posts.

Perhaps because Opens are generally smaller? They also have more information with which to work.

Perhaps, but controlling for # of players, Opens are still only 83% the length of Mini Normals. I'll go on to older games here in a bit...

::edit:: Medians are closer: 58.8 posts/player vs. 62.4p/p. I am certainly willing to be wrong here.

do you have new objections, or the same ones as you had in the other thread?

What don't you like about those setups?

The open game system is the only part of the site that dependably generates games that don't last for month after month with replacement after replacement. It seems to me that what I like best about the product of open games is what you object to.

I see the current open game system as being the best place for new mods to learn how to design and balance games, for new players to join games that demand a more reasonable time commitment, and for players to enjoy roles and mechanics that wouldn't work as well in closed setups. In the other thread one of your strongest objections was to a setup that included a death miller. I think open games (and semi-open) are usually the only suitable place for roles like Death Miller and Jester.

Did you see anything of value in the long post I typed up about adding rigor to the open game nomination process?

[Adel]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

That is probably because it isn't a problem. The town doesn't have to lynch unanimously two days in a row. The mafia goons are lovers, hence the name. The game can only last two days. If scum is lynched on either of those two days the town wins.


Is there a problem I am not seeing?

F&E&E&TOG is awfully swingy, assuming cross-kills go through. Fire and Ice is only borderline Normal, because of the way cross-kills go through.

I believe that swingy is an acceptable attribute for a game, especially an open game.

Fire and Ice was originally ok'd by Thesp, and it has been run three (4?) times now. Why the objection to it now? I don't think it would be hard to rewrite the mechanic and role PMs to make it appear more "normal". Is a lack of being "Normal" enough a problem you have with other setups?

Are you going to address the Empking's Alt problem?

While farside hasn't weighed in on why she put it in the queue, I am quite confident that it had more to do with JDodge's reputation and experience than a nomination by Empking's Alt.

I still maintain that JDodge's experiment was fraud, and has no business being part of a fair critique of the Open games system

What IS the current process, or is like Title Fairy?

it is like the Title Fairy... isn't it?

[Adel]

Lovers has been discussed to death - I've never seen you address the "Town must lynch unanimously two days in a row" problem.

While I agree with you (and have raised the point), it's "Town must lynch unanimously once in two days."

an odd number of players in lylo

always

requires every extant townie to vote for scum. 4/4 townies are required for a successful day 1 lynch, but that (along with scum daytalking) is part of what makes up for the 60% EV and the nightless.

[Adel]

EBWOQ:

an odd number of players in

lylo

always

almost always requires every extant townie to vote for scum.

@ sens: adding a townie, removing the nightless, and possibly removing the scum daytalking, probably wouldn't change the balance much, but the night phase would stall actively a little, and the threat of NK would discourage some players from being highly active and as pro-town as possible during day 1.

[Adel]

I don't see what the big fuss is about. JDodge didn't really ruin anything, he just pointed the flaw out in practice instead of raising his concerns. I'm fairly sure that if he had done the latter he would have been ignored. And anyway, the setup he proposed was clearly designed to end quickly while still proving the point.

BTW I agree with shaft.ed. More tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved.

This. Nobody listens to JDodge whining. Heck, I don't, but he's right startlingly more often than he's given credit for.

Fuck that.

I

listen to JDodge. I really respect his mafiascum and scumchat knowledge and experience. When he disagrees with me, especially on the balance of small games and endgame theory, I learned to expect that he would probably end up being right. In the past I've been unusually (for me) willing to take his word for it. I feel disappointed and a little betrayed.

~~~

moving on, I think that there is a consensus that "

more tried and tested games, less experimental unless thoroughly discussed and approved

" is a good idea.

Additionally, I think that people who nominate games generally need to take better care of their babies and make sure those darlings get either get reworked into something usable or drowned in the river. I'm going to start withdrawing my ideas that I think have failed. I'm also going to try to give more feedback to other people's ideas and I'll probably going be a little more stingy about nominating games.

[Adel]

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

why did you use the "mandatory lynches and NKs" part?

[Adel]

Clever name goes here

2 Scum
1 Recruiting mason
6 Townies

Scum & masons each get a quicktopic, recruiting mason dies if he targets scum, recruiting is not compulsory.
I was considering putting a watcher/night watchman in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary... thoughts?

hmmm...
day 1:

no lynch

or

random lynch

or

near-random wagon to claim

• if
  nolynch
  then
  • random nk:
    1/6 chance of hitting recruiting mason
    1/6 chance of hitting player targeted by recruiting mason
    random recruit:
    1/4 chance of hitting scum
    1/6 chance of hitting nk target
    7/12 chance of hitting town who survives the night
    result:
    (1/6+1/4)= 5/12 chance of 2Maf+1Mas+6Twn (2:7 vanilla favors scum)
    1/6 chance of 2Maf+1RecM+6Twn (unclear)
    (7/12-1/6)= 5/12 chance of 2Maf+1RecM+1Mas+5Twn (clear advantage town)
  if
  random lynch
  then
  • 2/9 chance of lynching Maf (clear advantage town)
    1/9 chance of lynching RecM (2:6 vanilla after nk: clear advantage scum)
    2/3 chance of lynching Twn (slight advantage scum)
  if
  near-random wagon to claim
  then
  • 1/9 chance of RecM claim (clear advantage scum)
    2/9 chance of fake RecM claim (clear advantage scum if counterclaimed, if no counterclaim then even odds?)
    2/3 chance of Twn lynch (slight advantage scum)

if

no lynch

-> 2Maf+1RecM+6Twn -> hypo cop then town should win >1/2 of the time?
if if

no lynch

-> 2Maf+1RecM+6Twn -> hypo cop then town should win >3/4 of the time

I think it looks pretty balanced, assuming the town would correctly conclude that nolynch is the correct option for day 1, which is doubtful.

[Adel]

Meh Dethy

- it's a logic puzzle, not Mafia.

I think we can agree that there should be a rule that says "games that do not start off with more than one scum player are not mafia" -- that is my objection to Dethy anyway. It needs more scumz.

[Adel]

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self))
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment invert (can target self); unlimited NK-immunity) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

I think I like this one.

questions:
1. what is the sk's initial alignment?
2. what does a investigation of a sk's alignment reveal him to be?
3. do you think that it would be ethical for the mafia jack-of-all trades to lie and tell her mafia partners that she was a goon? I think that would be the dominant tactic, and would lead to some jummy and recursive paranoia.
4. it is broken by a day 1 massclaim. The two jack of all trades out them selves, out the two mafia goons, and invert alignment N1 while one of the protown jack of all trades roleblocks the last mafia goon.

please fix the broken part

~~~
here is one way:

There's Four Jacks in Every Deck

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->sk->town->mafia & can target self)
1 Neutral Jack-of-All-Trades (one shot each of kill, roleblock, alignment shift mafia->town->sk->mafia & can target self) i.e. SK
2 Pro-Town Jacks-of-All-Trades (one shot each of protect, investigate, roleblock)
5 Vanilla Townies

now the massclaim will not happen for fear of treachery... or will it?

I could see this possible scenario:
1. neutral and mafia jacks claim
2. mafia jack claims players

q

and

r

as scum buddies.
3. the town ignores their protests and lynches player

r

, who is revealed to be a townie or even a pro-town jack (random is 2/7 chance of forcing a protown jack to claim).
4. N1 mafia jack roleblocks neutral jack. The mafia kill the Sk. The cops investigate whomever they choose.
5. WIFOM happens as players talk about if player

p

is also mafia or not.

I like the idea of the mafia and neutral jack possibly finding ways to help each other out.

[Adel]

my ninja was drinking on the job again: you caught her edits in a major way. sorry.

~~~

the investigation invert is an interesting idea. I need to redigest the setup.

[Adel]

they would both claim and promise to cross-convert: mafia targets sk and sk targets mafia with alignment change.

I think nk-immune is too strong. investigation-immune totally doesnt work though. I think another problem with alignment conversion is if the sk converts to mafia and still has that extra kill.

I think the original idea is probably better. Sorry for the tangent.

[Adel]

<3 JDodge Mafia

2 Mafia Goons
1 Mafia Goon (fnord)
2 Werewolves
1 Werewolf (fnord)
3 Townies (fnord)
2 Compulsive Vigs / Masons (each has a nk)
6 Townies

day start

Each night each fnord can switch the alignments of two other target players. Those players shall be protected from kills for that night. fnords will resolve in the order that they were received.

Only the original members of each scum group are allowed to talk at night with each other, and that ability to communicate does not change if their alignment changes. Ditto for the Masons.

For scum night kills, the first PM the mod receives is the kill that shall go through.

fnord'd players will be informed (if their alignment changed) by PM at the beginning of the new day.

Too swingy? Too random?

[Adel]

I'm thinking for the next round of games to sign up for to do

Carbon 14

again. I found the game well balance and many enjoyed playing (well except those killed early.)
Discussion on the game is welcomed.

Also saw this game getting 2 or three noms:

Two of Four b9

So again thoughts on both games. Yes or no. Problems or disagreement?

Carbon-14: Seems that massclaim is the best thing to do after nolynch day one. That should keep the town in confirmed players for the rest of the game. It is important that there is no discussion day one, though.

This depends on many factors.
Who did the mafia kill that night 1? Counter claiming is the bomb thing to do as scum or claiming said role first.

No lynch without discussion is the best way to preserve both of the investigators. Counterclaiming assures that the scum dies. Then it's just a witch hunt for the last scum. I should also say that whatever happens, counterclaiming is only a good idea for the mafia if there are 5 alive.

I figured that the best town tactic is:
no lynch -> cop claim if guilty Else hypocop + no lynch again

[Adel]

So I was hoping to run this setup in the open game queue when my turn came, but it got superceded by a current request for a two of four game. But I'd still like to see this game happen if there's interest:

Track me if you can:

2 trackers
1 doctor
3 townies
2 mafia (one of whom is a roleblocker)
1 serial killer

Mod notes: Day start. SK is not NK-immune and only has 2* kills

*(it's been recommended by farside that the SK only have 1 kill, but I prefer the 2-kill version)

I like the non-investigation immune & non-nk immune SK with double kill idea, but my first reaction was that it probably should be saved for a larger setup.

I see that the role does play a part of your design, and it may be better off for it.

Your setup may be too swingy and too dependent night moves for some people. I think your game just offers a different flavor of mafia from what is typical here.

With really swingy games I feel it is important to limit the time investment of players: that it only has nine players helps. I suggest 1.5*(number of living players) as a deadline length. Day 1 would last at most 13.5 days and the following days would be much shorter. The mechanic where days left before the deadline when a lynch occurs are banked and added on to the next day's deadline might be a good idea.

I expect that I will be willing to nominate this after a little more discussion.

How many hours did you spend designing this seup and tweaking it? It seems pretty polished to me.

[Adel]

2 mafia (one of whom is a roleblocker)

can the mafia role-blocker both role-block and kill in the same night?

[Adel]

I couldn't tell if my question was the same as your's or not, so I posted it. I was just trying to be concise. You are loved.

[Adel]

Three Blind Cops

3 mafia role blockers
5 cops
1 doctor

night start


have fun with hypocop.


edit: changed name from "3 mafia roleblockers" to "Three Blind Cops"

[Adel]

Day 1: Cop with result claims. Doc claims, since the mafia know who he is anyways (he wasn't blocked and doesn't have a result).

I've located the source of your error. You are welcome.

[Adel]

assuming that the doctor doesn't block the N0 kill:

• N0:
  • nk:
    
    5/6 chance of cop death
    • RB:
      
      2/5 chance of 3 cops RB'd -- 1 unblocked investigation
      3/5 chance of 2 cops and 1 doc RB'd -- 2 unblocked investigations
    1/6 chance of doc death -- 2 unblocked investigations
    
    
    Result:
    2/3 chance of 2 unblocked cop investigations, 1/3 chance of 1 unblocked investigation

So there are three possible game states for day 1:

a: 1/6 chance of a dead doc, two unblocked cop investigations (each with 1/3 chance of catching scum)
b: 2/6 chance of living doc and 1 unblocked investigation
c: 3/6 chance of living doc and 2 unblocked investigations

Town is screwed.

are you still sure that this is broken for scum Xyl?

[Adel]

The last run of Friends of Enemies
3 Mafia Goons
3 Masons
6 Townies

how about....

Friends and Enemies and Hans

3 Mafia Goons
3 Masons
1 Hans
5 townies

Daystart (masons and mafia can talk during the confirmation stage)

[Adel]

how is it "nearly unwinnable"? even in that case there is a 1/3 chance of the investigation netting a guilty. So long as they do not massclaim (no-lynch I think would be best) then the town has a reasonable chance of winning ( >1/3 chance) for the worse of the three possible states.

[Adel]

CP9 of Death Metal

1 Death Miller Cop
1 Doctor
2 Mafia Goons
5 Villagers

Once again, another variation of a standard set-up where Follow-the-Cop is highly discouraged. Let the cop WIFOM ensue! If cop claims as cop, the Mafia can counter-claim. If Mafia claims as cop, cop can counter-claim thus endangering both of them no matter the situation. Should provide for some interesting fun.

death miller is not a popular role.

why did you 5 townies instead of 3? C9 only has 7 players.

[Adel]

same question: why do you think that 5 townies is more balanced than 3 in that setup?

[Adel]

Yes I think so because the town have greater odds of winning as it is.

Yes, all lovers are able to daytalk. The game is the same game as Lovers (2 mafia lovers, 4 townies) except with hydra instead of single players.

Lovers was run three times (Open 97, 102, 113) and Polygamist was run three times (Open 76, 83, 88).

I think either game is great for improving your endgame play.

A similar game is Lovers Multiball, which was run as open 86.

[Adel]

Empking, why do you think it is "horribly unbalanced"? What range of EV do you think defines "balanced"? At which point does an unbalanced setup become "horribly unbalanced"?

~~~


I don't think it is a part of the canonical definition, but in my book a "normal" game requires a scum faction with at least two players. At the very least

Yos's & Gurgi's 4P

needs a better name.

[Adel]

Where is the "list" of "approved" open setups currently? I want to see if an idea I had has already been thought of.

we aren't done yet, but it currently looks like the first round will include
C9
One of four variations, randomly chosen:

• * 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 3 Townies;
  * 1 Cop, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 1 Doc, 2 Mafia, 4 Townies
  * 2 Mafia, 5 Townies

F11
It consists of four variations, chosen at random

• * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
  * 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
  * 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

Pie E7

• * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 1 Mafia Roleblocker (for balance reasons, the Roleblocker should also be able to nightkill even if the Goon is dead)
  * 1 Sane Cop
  * 1 Doctor
  * 3 Townies

Vengeful 5P

• * 1 Godfather
  * 1 Mafia Goon
  * 3 Vengeful townies
  Nightless

Lovers Mafia (no wiki page yet)

• * 2 Mafia Lovers
  * 4 Townies
  Nightless

Near-Vanilla

• * 3 Mafia
  * 1 Doctor
  * 1 Jailkeeper
  * 8 Townies

the full list of the previously run games (some of which are not balanced) can be found at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=43
but you would have to dig through Little Italy and New York or the "Open Setup Ideas and Discussion" threads to find the specific setups -- some of them are on the wiki.

[Adel]

I'm quite sure that it hasn't been suggested before.

how would you write the role PM and win condition for the scum players?

[Adel]

One Shot

3 Mafia
1 One-Shot Cop (may submit "no action" to preserve ability for later nights)
7 Townies

Day start, mandatory lynches and NKs.

This looks really good. I'd play this.

That's not balanced. you need to drop a mafia, and probalby a townie.

What is not balanced about it? Takes three mislynches for town to lose, with a one shot cop it looks pretty good to me.

In a vanilla game with 3 mafia, between 40 and 44 townies is balanced.
How many townies is a one-shot cop worth? Less than 33, obviously.

[Adel]

is Guardian trying a JDodge experiment with his alts, charter and Seraphim?

(no offense intend Guardian, you know I love you, but I am a little paranoid -- it totally isn't balanced, and I have trouble understanding why you think it is)

[Adel]

If you won't run 3:7+1-shot, run a few 3:7+cop. I would be very, very surprised if the town does not win a majority -- unless the cops play pretty badly. I think the town should expect the cop to get 1.3 scum in those setups, or so, in a combination of clearing townies and finding scum.

3:8+cop is strawberry which is a setup that I do not like, as I said in the open setup certification thread:

3-1-8 Strawberry is very tough on the town; the best they can realistically hope for is that they can trade the Cop for a Scum, and then it becomes a 2-X setup that's worse than 2-10 (already in the Scum's favor). 3-1-11 would be a more reasonable balance, or 3-1-9 with cop headstart.

not to mention that the performance and survival of a single player is the single most important variable for town success. That equates with a crap 12-player setup in my book.

Re: Strawberry, again I don't think we're here to say if a set up is interesting. We are here to say if it is broken and reasonably balanced.

it isn't broken. It isn't especially balanced for a 12 player game, but it is probably within the standard we used for smaller games.

I just don't like it, even at 3:9+1

[Adel]

I disagree that, even the 1-shot cop, should expect to settle for only 1 scum death in value worth, on average. He should be able to prevent a townie lynch or get a scum lynch without claiming, and should be able to stay alive long enough to be making him confirmed to matter, at least some of the time.

not to mention that the performance and survival of a single player is the single most important variable for town success. That equates with a crap 12-player setup in my book.

What if we called the cop the "king," the townies "guards," and the mafia the "assassins"? It would be OK then, amirite?

the king is a much more simple role to play well than cop... and the guards fucking up is the major cause of town loss in that game, right?

[Adel]

I believe that we are at an impass then.

And palace flavor is just so baller.

agreed.

Ironically, the use of "baller" is not

[Adel]

Ballers in the Palace

3 Ballers (each can target one other player for a rendezvous)
11 Guards (tracker, finds out who a player targeted during the previous period of day.)
2 Princesses (each get 1 roleblock, and can target one player for a rendezvous per day)
Deep South.

Everyone knows who the Princesses are. If a Princess and the same Baller target each other two days in a row (successfully rendezvous), the Ballers and that Princess win. The Ballers can daytalk.

At the beginning of each day flavor will indicate if a rendezvous successfully occurred, and how many rendezvous occurred.

Baller

You are a Baller, you have disguised yourself as a Guard. _______ and ________ are the other ballers. You can talk ____here____.

Each day you can target one other player for a secret rendezvous. If you, or either of the other ballers, successfully rendezvous with a Princess two days in a row, the four of you will win.

Guard

You are a Guard, sworn to protect the Chasity of the Princesses. Each day you can follow the footprints of another player, and see who they visited the day before.

You win if all three Ballers are lynched before any of them successfully rendezvous with a princess two nights in a row.

Princess

You are a Princess. You can attempt to rendezvous with one other player once per day. You can also roleblock one other non-Princess player (preventing him from tracking another player or arranging a rendezvous with any Princess) once per day.

You win if you successfully rendezvous with a Baller two days in a row.

Moves can be submitted up 24 hours after the hammer. The death scene (about 24 hours after the hammer) will mark the end of day, indicate if a rendezvous happened (and how many) and reveal the role of the lynched player. The mod will send PMs indicating results from rendezvous and tracking attempts after he locks the game thread and before he posts the death scene.

The Princesses can't be lynched, obviously. The game is basically a race to see which Princess can break the setup (if they can) before the Ballers get lynched. The Princesses do not get a vote.

If a Guard tracks a Princess he will find out who she targeted, but will not know which player she targeted with which ability.

[Adel]

Vote counts only count people voting.

this.

Vote Count 23

With four alive it will take four votes to lynch

Thok

: Empking, Adel

Adel

: Mr. Flay

Mr. Flay

: Thok

Empking

:

none

Not Voting

:

none

Vote Count 23 would prove that Adel and Empking are not both town.

I think it might be fun.

Did anyone try it on marathon day?

[Adel]

Vote counts only count people voting.

this.

Vote Count 23

With four alive it will take four votes to lynch

Thok

: Empking, Adel

Adel

: Mr. Flay

Mr. Flay

: Thok

Empking

:

none

Not Voting

:

none

Vote Count 23 would prove that Adel and Empking are not both town.

I think it might be fun.

Did anyone try it on marathon day?

But mafia would have to be retarded to vote together.

and thus WIFOM is made.

~~ anyhow it is broken by vote flickering.

[Adel]

I don't think it is very powerful. It just adds one layer of WIFOM while it takes away another 9 townies, and each player should be allowed to opt out from being the angel before roles are given out. I kind of like it since it will encourage scum players to act as Uber-townie as possible.

[Adel]

Doublecrossed

2 Doctors
5 Vanilla Townies
2 Mafia Scum
1 Vampire (becomes Mafia Scum)


Mod Notes:

Vampire: Plays for Town. If NKed, stays and becomes Mafia Scum, cannot be protected
Doctor: Cannot protect self.
Mafia Scum, together submits two choices, one choice to kill and one choice to roleblock.

did you consider the possibility of players adopting the following tactics:
1. doctors claiming day 1, and cross-protecting for the rest of the game
2. the vampire claiming in twilight to create a pre-mature lylo

I think the vampire (which seems like a mild variation of the Traitor role to me) should be able to be protected. If that is the case then I think a day 1 vampire claim is a very interesting tactic. It might even be worth making the vampire a public role, so that everyone knows who the vampire is at the start of the game.

The only real problem I have with your setup (other than that it probably needs another townie or two) is how swingy it is, and that the swingyness has a strong chance of not kicking in until late in the game. The town strength necessary to balance a 3 player scum team is much stronger than the balance needed for a two player scum team.. and the vampire's final alignment won't be determined until rather late in the game.

[Adel]

OMG thanks Adel for feedback. I've been yearning for people to check it for days.

Quote:

1. doctors claiming day 1, and cross-protecting for the rest of the game


That's why I placed a Scum Group Roleblock.

and I missed that, sorry.

2. the vampire claiming in twilight to create a pre-mature lylo

I honestly did not see this. OK, I should make the Vampire protectable.

Some questions:

1. What do you mean by swinginess?

Suppose you graphed balance at lylo for thousands of games for three perfectly balanced setups, Red, Dark Blue, and Green. Make 5 be pro-town, and -5 pro scum.

Red would be the least swingy -- on average whichever side has the advantage only enjoys a slight advantage. Dark Blue, on the other hand, yields games where one side is much more likely to have a dominating advantage over the other side.

The problem with your vampire role is that late in the game he might become scum, which means that if we perfectly balance the game for the 2 scum w/ nk + RB vs 2 docs + townes, then late in the game the balance graph might jump from a shape like the dark blue to a shape like a light blue. So a more accurate graph for your game's would have a shape like

(i'm borrowing graphics, obviously)


A game design consideration that I think is important is for game to get less swingy as the game goes on. It is really frustrating to be playing in a game for 50 pages over three months only to have some combination of semi-random events make it impossible for you to win.

2. When I ran the worst case for town, it had three mislynches. If that's two small, then adding two more vanillas should solve it right?

I don't count mislynches to determine balance. mith's EV system (predicting who would win over many simulated games) gives a general rule of thumb about how many vanilla townies it takes to balance each number of scum, then we guestimate based upon experience how power roles would effect the game's likely outcome. It take a lot more townies to balance three scum than two scum.

3. Hmmm... what if I make it a Traitor instead of Vampire (scum alignment at start, unknown to the rest of the town, but unNKable.)

a less interesting game, actually. I'm not sure about the balance. Also, the traitor is usually NK-able. Did you intend to change that part?

edited instead of quoted, and then edited again to return to original

[Adel]

How about changing the Vampire to a unNKable Traitor?

I think I actually like the Vampire role with the Doctor "fix" myself. It just hinges very heavily on one of the Docs surviving to end game.

but there are two doctors, and they can cross protect (assuming that to RB ability is taken away from the scum).

having a Doctor around at end game would make for some majorly interesting WIFOM.

I agree. I think there is potential here.

I'm thinking about what if the two mafia goons lovers, so that it will be a smaller & shorter game, so that the players will be more tolerant of the swingyness.

something like:
2 mafia goon lovers (w. nk)
1 vampire (wins with town, joins scum if nk'd)
2 doctors (can cross protect)
4? townies (wild-ass guess)

[Adel]

do you also challenge the proposition that swingy is more tolerated in short games than long games, or can I start from there as a given?

[Adel]

it is a wifom choice: claim and cross protect the other doc (assuming the vamp doesn't fakeclaim doc, which is another wonderful tactic to consider), or try to anticipate who the scum will try to nk and try to keep the vamp from being recruited

[Adel]

do you also challenge the proposition that swingy is more tolerated in short games than long games, or can I start from there as a given?

Not sure, because I find short games to be inherently more swingy than large games (where skill can even out some of the swing). I'm not sure which factor is weighted more for most people... which I guess is what I'm looking for. Do you have a poll? Survey instrument? Scummie award review?

I read a lot of open games and mini-normals, the post games of the various runs of the setups I've designed, and I eventually began to equate post-game bitching about balance with late-game swingyness. Often I will see a setup that I think is balanced, but just happened to go one way or the other, really piss the losing players off. No graphs and no surveys though.

What is your point?

[Adel]

I think in shapes, so that is the easiest way for me to communicate.

(i'm borrowing graphics, obviously)

I guess my disclaimer wasn't explicit enough. I found graphics that kind of fit the shapes I had in my head, and used them for illustrative purposes, only.

[Adel]

dig though the MD forum and the wiki... the meat is here though: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10751

[Adel]

Question: At what state is the Open Setup Approval Committee in? Are they approving setups from players or are they still reviewing past setups? Does the committee still exist?

it is a recent group, only a couple of months old.
We're almost done evaluating setups that have been run in the past, but we've stalled out on how to evaluate games with two scum groups.

After that we will start on un-run setups, but we haven't started to figure out which order we will go in. It is a work in progress.

[Adel]

Shrink the set up so it starts closer to end game?

1 Doc, 1 Scum, 1 Vamp, X townies?

I don't like it because it doesn't meet my personal standard for an informed minority, and therefor isn't what I consider to be mafia. I suggested the use of the Lovers Mechanic because I also wanted to shrink it, while preserving the informed minority.

[Adel]

It is a game without any fun.

from another perspective, it is a game where augmentation and judgment is all that matters... but I think I agree with you. Typical game: "I'm the vengeful townie. Lynch me and I'll flip a coin." or 10k words to the same effect.

And yes, 689 is at True Love I just went to have lunch and posted without checking the thread. I nominated it for certification.

I seconded it. Very well designed.

[Adel]

Typical game: "I'm the vengeful townie. Lynch me and I'll flip a coin." or 10k words to the same effect.

[Adel]

Empking: The masons will claim and the scum will counter, or the scum will claim mason and the mason will counter or the random wagon will be on the Vengeful townie and it will go through to his lynch. The masons aren't going to vote for each other, and neither are the scum. Either way the vengeful townie will be the player who decides.

Your setup is too symmetrical There will be nothing to differentiate between masons and mafia. Each is a set of two players that know each other's alignment and, if lynched, will lose the game.

In ortoleans True Love the mafia can daytalk, and are also lovers with other players. It will also come down to a "coin flip", but it will have a couple of days of information to inform that decision. The mafia will much more likely to have distinct tells from the other players since there is something that makes them different: they know the alignment of player in a different lover pair, and they can secretly communicate with each other.

[Adel]

Empking: the masons claim because if they don't, they are lynch candidates--and a mason lynch is an instant loss for town.

They Claim: So they won't be lynched.
When they claim: The odds of one of them getting lynched goes up by 10%.

Am I getting this right?

No. Neither the real masons nor the claimed masons will be getting lynched, the vengeful townie will.

So the confirmed town is lynched. Why?

And does it increase the town's odds to bertter than 50%?

or the two masons will vote a scum player, and the two scum will vote for a mason, and the V. townie will hammer.

It doesn't make any difference

-- either way the V. has to choose between two identical groups with no informational or motivational difference between them.

[Adel]

Popularity Mafia

Only goons and vanillas (perhaps 3 goons and 9 vanillas?).

Day works as always (random voting, tempered arguments, voting and lynching - well you know the drill)

At night EVERYONE sends in a person they wants to have nightkill immunity, and the one with most immunity supporters gets the immunity that night. You shouldn't be able to vouch for yourself.

Comments?

I agree that only townies should get the right to immunity vote, and I think it would be interesting if the winner was public information in the same post where the NK deathscene was posted. This could potentially go a long way towards confirming someone as town... for example "Mirth was was voted NK immune. There was no NK." would prety much mean that Mirth was the NK target, barring some scum gambit of not killing because they expected one of their members to win the Nk immunity election. Could be interesting play.

Perhaps 2:7 instead of 3:9?

[Adel]

What is the rationale of dragging out the games for such a long time? Where I play, we usually finish a game every week instead.

we are just hardcore like that. Some games do stall out and drag on for far too long, but many remain full of active posting and deep analysis for months. Generally the smaller the game the faster it is. Open 145 Lovers Mafia is still taking two players, you can sign up at http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1000 -- with six players that is probably the quickest setup that gets run here.

[Adel]

lol. polygamist and lovers are practically the same game, and take about the same amount of time to play.

polygamist

4 Goon Lovers
8 Lovers

Nightless


The Goon Lovers are all lovers together, so if any one dies they all die.
The Townie lovers are tied together in pairs. Each pair dies together.

lovers mafia

2 Mafia Goon Lovers
4 Townie

Nightless

Presuming that the mafia aren't on a fellow mafia's lynch it requires every member of the town to lynch the mafia.
The game can end day 1
The mafia may be able to talk outside the thread.

[Adel]

I think this will fix it:

Tap Dance Multiball Mafia

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Line Tapper
1 Werewolf
1 Werewolf Line Tapper
2 Townie Line Tappers
2 Lovers, Group A
2 Lovers, Group B
2 Townies
Day Start

The Lover groups and scum groups can PM each other during the 72 hour pregame. During each night phase they can communicate only via a QT thread provided by the moderator.

Each Line Tapper can target one other player each day. If that player is in a group that has a QT thread, the line tapper gets a copy of the link, and can also post there (at night) if she feels like it.

Each line tapper can only use her ability successfully once per game.

[Adel]

only if the tapper posts in it.

[Adel]

"Tap Dance" is clearly better.

There are some problems with the setup -- there is the danger that the QT topics just wouldn't be used, and there is a danger of a scum player not quite understanding the setup until too late, and outing their team.

I'm considering enabling daytalking for all QT threads, and allowing scum players to exchange PMs during the pre-game.

[Adel]

I think this will fix it:

Tap Dance Multiball Mafia

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Line Tapper
1 Werewolf
1 Werewolf Line Tapper
2 Townie Line Tappers
2 Lovers, Group A
2 Lovers, Group B
2 Townies
Day Start

The Lover groups and scum groups can PM each other during the 72 hour pregame. During each night phase they can communicate only via a QT thread provided by the moderator.

Each Line Tapper can target one other player each day. If that player is in a group that has a QT thread, the line tapper gets a copy of the link, and can also post there (at night) if she feels like it.

Each line tapper can only use her ability successfully once per game.

I accidentally edited this instead of quoting it.. instead of "Line Tapper Mafia" it is now "Tap Dance Mafia" and the mason groups have been replaced by Lovers. I also changed the mod notes.

[Adel]

Under the current meta, I think the town is usually pretty weak in open games. Massclaims don't happen nearly as often as they used to, and I think that running an effective massclaim isn't a common skill right now.

[Adel]

Open and Closed

2 Mafia Goons
3 Census Takers
1 Tracker
2 Townies

Daystart & Closed Reveal
(the role and alignment of dead players is not posted until the game is over)

Census Taker: Once during the game, you may receive a list of how many players on each team are alive.

hat tip to Xyl for posting his list of roles -- the Census mechanic is incredibly cool, and new to me.

[Adel]

Open and Closed

2 Mafia Goons
3 Census Takers

1

Tracker

2 Townies

Daystart & Closed Reveal
(the role and alignment of dead players is not posted until the game is over)

Census Taker: Once during the game, you may receive a list of how many players on each team are alive.

hat tip to Xyl for posting his list of roles -- the Census mechanic is incredibly cool, and new to me.

I'm not sure how much chance the scum have here. The trackers are powerful with only 2 scum; 1 scum gets lynched, and both trackers become cops. Plus, day 1 massclaim, scum pretty much have to claim census taker (if they claim either tracker, I think town automatically catches them that night, and of course claiming townie is almost as bad), which then means that the scum can't kill all the town census takers (or they'll look really bad) and that they have to tell the truth, and that makes them very vulnerable to the trackers.

[Adel]

I think Closed reveal makes it harder for the town.

The even number of players is also a negative to the town.

Consider what the town will typically face after a lynch and a nk: 2 scum left, 1/3 chance of the tracker being dead, mylo.

Can the town ever trust a "successful" tracker investigation?

[Adel]

Three lynches, two scum, wonky reveal mechanics, only one weak power role (plus the census takers, who in no way fully compensate for the reveal issues). On the contrary, I think this is pretty scumsided.

that was my hunch. Toss in another townie?

Open and Closed

2 Mafia Goons
3 Census Takers
1 Tracker
3 Townies

Daystart & Closed Reveal
(the role and alignment of dead players is not posted until the game is over)

[Adel]

I altered this a bit:

Bad Tweed

3 mafia goons (group ability: kill, group ability:tailor)
6 vanilla townies
2 unconfirmed & sane cops
1 insane cop
Day Start

The target of the tailor ability has his alignment flipped for investigative purposes for the night.
Mafia can target a member of the mafia with the tailor ability.
If the insane cop investigates a town player who was also targeted by the tailor ability his investigation result will be "innocent"; if the insane cop investigates a mafia player who was also targeted by the tailor ability his investigation result will be "guilty" -- otherwise the insane cop will receive an investigation result that is the opposite of his target's actual alignment.

[Adel]

The only thing Cops are good for in that setup is claiming and then being confirmed through lack of a counterclaim.

I don't think so.

suppose:
day 1: vanilla townie lynched
night 1: vanilla townie killed
day 2: vanilla townie killed
night 2: vanilla townie killed
day 3: 5 cops claim, each with 1 guilty and 1 innocent investigation result.

Do you see how the town could easily analyze those claims, confirm some players, and find a path to success?

[Adel]

Paris Mafia

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
5 townies

11 players, daystart

The only run of Paris Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10489
player consensus in post-game: the scum were too powerful.

where a bunch of us worked on it in the old thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=3200

Paris II

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
6 townies


12 players, daystart

~~~


Role PMs

Six players will receive the following Role PM:

Vous êtes une Vanille Townie. Vous n'avez aucune puissance de special.

Vous gagnez quand on a éliminé toutes les menaces pour la ville.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Goon. You are on a team with ________, who is also a Goon.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill, and the Goon who will perform the kill.

You win when only Goons are alive.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Mime. You are on a team with _______, who is also a Mime.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to roleblock, and the Mime who will perform the roleblock. All night actions by the blocked player will not occur. You will not be informed of whether or not a block successfully alters the events of a night.

You win when all Mimes have been lynched.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Watcher, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of a player to watch. You will be informed via PM of all other players that targeted the watched player with a night action.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Vigilante, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

~~~

IMO the mime win condition is mutually exclusive with the mafia's and with the town's.

[Adel]

Reading the game comments for paris it seems people thought adding 2 VT's would be more helpful. What does 1 VT added to the set up change? Why add only 1 instead of 2 VT's?

2 mafia goons vs. watcher + vig + 7 townies seems like a lot..

possible rule changes:
1. "no lynch" is not allowed while both mimes are alive.
2. if one mime is killed at night the other becomes a neutral survivor OR if one mime is killed at night, both die and lose.

[Adel]

I like the latter one better as well

If I want some help with an open setup that is a slight bit non-traditional, but I don't really care about submitting it for play on mafia scum, what thread do I do that in? This one? Some other one? Do I make a new thread?

just make a thread in MD. even if you are just doing it as an exercise... someone will learn from it and someone might want to run it as a theme game.

What's the thinking behind leaving them in the game right now? They don't have a winnable win condition anymore, right?

It is either an oversight by the original design team (mostly me) or we assumed that the mod would take the surviving Mime out of the game, or maybe we thought that it would be funny, I don't remember. btw, have you see http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10154 -- I think you might enjoy parts of it.

[Adel]

as a starting point:

Sith Mafia

1 Sith Mentor
3 Vigs
2 Trackers
5 Townies

Night Start

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

You are a Sith Lord Mentor.

Each night you must recruit a protégé if you do not currently have one. Your protégé will replace you if you die.

You can communicate with your protégé at any time via PM-- he will not know your identity until you do.

You win if you are alive at the end of the game.

You've been recruited over to the dark side of the Force.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

You are a Sith Lord Protégé.

Each night you can kill one other player.

Your Mentor can send you PMs at any time. You are allowed to reply to those PMs.

If your Mentor dies, you will be the new Sith Lord Mentor.

You win if you are a living Sith Lord Mentor at the end of the game.

Note that even if the Sith Mentor is targeted Night 0, he will still successfully recruit a Protégé

[Adel]

yep.

[Adel]

just out of curiosity, what reason would a mentor have in revealing himself to his protege?

Just mind games in this setup, I think, especially in a 3 or 4 person endgame. For closed setups there are a number of other mechanics that could build on it.

[Adel]

Reading the game comments for paris it seems people thought adding 2 VT's would be more helpful. What does 1 VT added to the set up change? Why add only 1 instead of 2 VT's?

2 mafia goons vs. watcher + vig + 7 townies seems like a lot..

possible rule changes:
1. "no lynch" is not allowed while both mimes are alive.
2. if one mime is killed at night the other becomes a neutral survivor OR if one mime is killed at night, both die and lose.

I definately think the no lych while both alive should be in here what about no lynch not in the game at all.

unnecessarily penalizes the town in the event of a 3 townie 1 mafia endgame.

[Adel]

LYLO mafia

2 Vanilla Townies
1 Mafia Goon

- Day start

{insert obligatory "a game needs at least one scum-group of at least two players to be a mafia game" objection here}

[Adel]

I think his suggested fix might help the mimes nicely

Paris Mafia

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
5 townies

11 players, daystart

The only run of Paris Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10489
player consensus in post-game: the scum were too powerful.

where a bunch of us worked on it in the old thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=3200

Paris II

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 watcher
6 townies


12 players, daystart
IMO the mime win condition is mutually exclusive with the mafia's and with the town's.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#2006764

so how about a role cop to buff the town?

Paris III

2 mafia goons
2 mimes
1 vig
1 role cop
1 watcher
5 townies


12 players, daystart


better?



~~~


Role PMs

Five players will receive the following Role PM:

Vous êtes une Vanille Townie. Vous n'avez aucune puissance de special.

Vous gagnez quand on a éliminé toutes les menaces pour la ville.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Goon. You are on a team with ________, who is also a Goon.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill, and the Goon who will perform the kill.

You win when only Goons are alive.

Two players will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Mime. You are on a team with _______, who is also a Mime.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to roleblock, and the Mime who will perform the roleblock. All night actions by the blocked player will not occur. You will not be informed of whether or not a block successfully alters the events of a night.

You win when all Mimes have been lynched. You lose if you are killed at night.
If your partner is killed at night you can still win if you are the next player lynched or if 3 "no lynches" occur while you are alive.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Watcher, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of a player to watch. You will be informed via PM of all other players that targeted the watched player with a night action.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Vigilante, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of one player to kill.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

One player will receive the following Role PM:

You are a Role-Cop, Town-Aligned.

Each game night you may PM me the name of one player to investigate. You will be informed via PM of that players role unless you are role-blocked.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

[Adel]

Also Percy's amendment effectively screws the town harder- it gives them yet another way to lose even if they lynch all the scum

did you see my variant?

You are a Mime. You are on a team with _______, who is also a Mime.

Each game night you may communicate with each other via PM. In addition, each game night you may PM me the name of one player to roleblock, and the Mime who will perform the roleblock. All night actions by the blocked player will not occur. You will not be informed of whether or not a block successfully alters the events of a night.

You win when all Mimes have been lynched. You lose if you are killed at night.
If your partner is killed at night you can still win if you are the next player lynched or if 3 "no lynches" occur while you are alive.

I modified his suggestion.


~~~

does the role cop get "mime" and "mafia" or just town power roles?

all roles, including "mime" and "goon"

[Adel]

should now be a night start.

why?

[Adel]

should now be a night start.

why?

[Adel]

should now be a night start.

why?

Run the math

did. huge change in % chance of winning due to totally random n0 action = bad idea.

thank you for you invaluable input. please try again.

[Adel]

Aldus Mafia

3 Mafia Goons
1 Doctor
1 Roleblocker
1 Aldus
5 Townies

Daystart

Aldus

You are Aldus. If you are lynched you will not die until the next day, a moment before that day's lynch goes through. Exception: if Nk'd you will still die.

You win with the town.