Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Khamisa]

/confirm.

[Khamisa]

Random Vote: zwetschenwasser

Do you think it's scummy to say that an RVS shouldn't be conducted? What would you prefer as an alternative? Do any of you have interesting meta on other players?

Yes, because a random voting stage IS useful. There need be no alternative. I don't like meta. I can understand if you don't want to random vote, but you shouldn't attempt to bar everyone from random voting.

FoS: Dust

Empking has put everything very laconically so far. I kind of like it.

[Khamisa]

Mod: There are two zwetschenwassers in the vote count.

I'm all over it

[Khamisa]

I feel special. I'm not answering Percy's question, and I'd like to ask dust to post a completed game where you kill the RVS as town.

I absolutely hate this post. It appears you feel special because you are doing anti-town things.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

This wasn't a good idea, Empking. Now Dust, if scum, was quickly clued in to what he should do to save himself. It almost looks like you could be scum buddies.

I'm saying 4 because it's how the number would work in my head for those two scenarios - - two pairs

What? If there are 5, you should work it out in your head to be five. This just sounds like a bad coverup now.

Current Suspects:
zwet (for wanting counterclaim and post mentioned above)
Empking (due to putting the "don't counterclaim out there for Dust to easily see it)
Dust (due to Empking's post)
AA23 (for his slip/coverup)

[Khamisa]

AA23: Oh, I didn't read the situations correctly. And I also got the zwetschenwasser situation wrong as well. I thought the "I feel special" comment was applying to the fact that you weren't answering Percy's question.

[Khamisa]

I made my case against Zwet and it was one of the best leads we had, so now I'm gonna move to the next one best one for now.

But it caused a mislynch. Should we trust your cases then?

No matter how you spin it, I wasn't responsible for any deaths last night

Hello? Have you forgotten there is a scumgroup without a nightkill in this game? Claiming that doesn't really help your case.

FoS: AA23

lol Yes! Call for a prod!! You need help Dej!!!!!! lol you're on the run, pal.

You are blaming people for wanting to get others active? That's a desperate stretch.

AA23, your arrogant and agressive tone is detering the persuasion of your cases.

[Khamisa]

He and mix have not cleared themselves, and I reckon the call for more activity was a scummy hope that maybe the people that were on the wagon with them, innocent or not, will come to their aid and call me off - -

Have you cleared yourself? I don't think anybody's cleared themselves. There is infringement against everybody.

And here are my opinions on your case on Mix (in post 392):

You make it sound like Mixologist knew zwetschenwasser was a town

ie

before he lynched him. I can understand if you think he is scum, but multiple times you make it sound like he knows zwet is a townie while still looking for scum.

Also, you have a tendency to reach into the minds of people who don't believe your case and attack them personally, when they have little to do with the Mixologist case. It's OK to persuade people to believe you, but you are using emotional appeal to force them to believe your case. It's not acceptable play IMO.

And I don't get how you want me to look past your emotions to see the case - your posts are so laced with them its extremely hard to do so. AA23, you are playing this

game

like your life depends on it, and its causing your case to be less evidencial and more emotional.

[Khamisa]

He chased a lynch and it resulted in a dead towny.

You've said some form of this many times when accusing Mixologist. Not every lynch is going to be correct, and now that Mix has somewhat explained his reasoning, we know he didn't do it totally opportunistically.

And I'm not saying your scum, you are more like uber-agrressive town in my eyes.

[Khamisa]

Kham: Who's scum?

AA23's weird defense without provoking has me suspicious. I wasn't questioning how his playstyle made him bad. I was just questioning his playstyle.

However, if you actually read it. AA23's case on Mix isn't all that bad. He did change his vote without instigation or explanation.

Ace's case is also good. Especially with the new info that he's practically ignoring this game.

AA23's case on dejkha, however, is bad, IMO.

In other news-Welcome, Thesp.

[Khamisa]

I absolutely dislike how Percy criticizes AA23's playstyle, not his case, and AA23 attacks with a demonstration of the playstyle Percy criticized, only leading to a deadly cycle.

AA23, WE HATE YOUR PLAYSTYLE. However, your cases are decent. Make them more presentable and maybe more people will listen.

It's also very funny how Ace "forgets' the game.

Does anyone in this town ALSO finally acknowledge that Mix lynched opportunistically? - And if so, are you all honestly going to bash my case and call me scum for preferring him to Ace?

I think your case on Mix is good, and I think a lot of other people do too, but you are misrepresenting everyone by saying that they are bashing your case. It's your playstyle.

If anyone has a better case, lay it out. Otherwise, leave me and my case be

If someone wants to openly criticize your case, shouldn't they be allowed to do that? I'm not saying there are problems with it, but if someone were to find some inconsistency, they should be allowed to look into it.

@Khamisa - - Given what's presented, does the Mix wagon earn your vote? Does the case make sense and show Mix for scum?

Yes. And I think more people would be more likely to see the truth in it if they are able to read through what your saying.

Vote: Mixologist

[Khamisa]

@Khamisa: Do you find AA scummy?

He's not scummy, he just has a harsh and inappropriate playstyle. I'm not sure how you mean the case has been "inflated".

[Khamisa]

This seems hypocritical to me. At the very least, I'm missing something. Why do you say you dislike my criticism of AA's playstyle, and then turn around and say you hate his playstyle too?

Oh, you were missing something. I hate how AA23 attacked by using the playstyle you criticized.

If you vote for Ace, I'll hammer him.

If you vote for Mix, then it looks like either one of the Ace-wagoners will have to jump over to the Mix-wagon, or Mix will be lynched in a deadline lynch.

This is twisted in a way. Your more or less telling Thesp he can go the easy way by voting Ace, or going the hard way by having to persuade someone else. This situation is kind of leading.

[Khamisa]

O.

M.

G.

AA23 just switched from the wagon he's been pushing all day to the one he's been against all day.

O.

M.

G.

Ash hammered, preventing very much more discussion.

I would like to say that AA and Ash are now my new top suspects.

[Khamisa]

AA23, it looked like your Mixologist wagon had a chance, the one you'd been pushing all day. I know you weren't against the Ace wagon, but your Mix case had been competing against it all day. I find it really strange that you easily switched your vote, leaving your day's work fruitless. You are even saying today that Sotty can't do much to save himself.

AA23's case on Mixologist was good, but his activities at the end of the day (and how they aligned with Ash's actions) are almost equally as suspicious. I'm refraining from voting at this moment.

[Khamisa]

So Kham who is scummy to you? Are you going to be voting for me again?

Obviously, you are still scummy to me, but AA23 has lifted from bad play to scum play. He not only switched very easily from a case he had been following all day to another, but his vote was quickly followed by Ash, who we now know is Mafia. Kind of a swift way to end the day, if you ask me.

Also, now that you've brought it up, the Dust wagon also proves a good point. AA23 was on it, so was Ash. Percy I can also see as scum, but probably Wolf, judging from his relationship with AA23. We also have lurker Empking on there.

Dejhka: We were "Masslurking" because of the "giant distraction".

Scort: You and AA23

Vote: AA23

Um...interpret?


OK, I'm pretty firm in this.

Vote: AA23

My other suspect would have to be Sotty7 still and Percy, thought I can't believe that the latter two are on the same scumteam as AA23.

I think the difference between my lurking and Empking's lurking is taht when I post, I actualy say something, Empking's posts are usualy 1-line or unreadable.

Listen, I'm not trying to kick up a storm or anything

Ha! This is will be sigged at the conclusion of the game. It's just so false it's good.


Empking is fourth in my list; his play is just bad. It's far too simple, and there never is any real deep analysis.

[Khamisa]

Are you suggesting that this indicates that Ash & AA23 are more likely to be scum together?

Yes.

I wanted to have one of the wagons lynched before both replacements came in - - It's more than natural for both of them to claim innocence and confuse the process - - instead of having two wagons jeapordized and more confusion prolonging our process, I wanted the lynch to come.

So you want a replacement to come in and say "Hi! I'm so-and-so's replacement, but I'm scum, so you can just lynch me now! Thanks! No. That's not how it works. Replacements should be given a chance.

Is this you officially stating that not only is Mix (Sotty) not a suspect, but he is more so a suspect than me?

That doesn't make any sense to me with the context of the quote. But yes, if I am voting you, than you are more suspicious than Sotty7.

Nothing to note on the Dej/Emp relationship?

I don't see any sort of relationship. Are you talking about the lack of one, because I can see going somewhere with that.

My hypothesis of the endgame teams?

It's truly possible, and I do like it. Especially with Percy's vote, which I know is referenced in another point. However, we have to keep looking on things based outside of these teams. I also get how you can see Dej/Emp now.

Dej's vote on Hewitt (which branches from above)?

I have a slight quibble with this. hewitt hasn't really been scummy all game. If dejkha is scum, he would likely go for other suspicious looking people because there are two scum groups. His vote on hewitt, if he were scum, is an unlikely choice. Although I can see it as a funky sort of gambit...

Sotty's impression of Thesp?

Thesp is almost as new as Sotty, so he's definitely right that he needs to contribute more in a sense. I do think Thesp's vote was a bit mocking, as it seems he was going to vote Sotty no matter what he said.

And about my sigging comment--It's was just the exact opposite of your play. I didn't mean to be "dickish"--it's just that it was so unexpected and not your play that I had to remark upon it.

Don't get too personal (hasn't that been my mantra (?) for you the entire game?), it's all in good fun

[Khamisa]

What do you think of Percy ignoring Ash as far as the lurking goes? Do you not think this could be a possible partnership?

This is another viable option, but I don't think it is as likely as the one I mentioned. Sometimes players ignore lurkers just because they don't realize they are there.

I agree with the sentiment that we should not expect replacements to claim scum. What does that have to do with giving them a chance?

AA23 made it sound like the replacements are pointless; we are likely to lynch them anyway. I'm saying that if we're going to put all the effort into finding a replacement, they should at least be able to state their case.

I did not intend to mock Sotty7. I did indeed intend to vote for him, almost no matter what he said.

I don't think "mocking" was the right word, but I'm talking about the fact that you were going to vote him the entire time.

@All those who say they like dejkha/Empking: I don't see dej/Emp. Can someone explain it to me? If it's simply that dej hates Emp, that's not very convincing at all.

It's most definitely not the fact that dejkha hates Empking, I think it's the fact that dejkha has made little comment whatsoever about Empking. This is also very brittle, because 1) dejkha spent most of day 2 arguing with AA23 and 2) I know I've spoken little about Empking, so it's not just a one person thing.

That's the thing I've been saying - - there's no secrets or mysteries to why I switched my vote - - nobody would make that figuritive "hey! I'm scum" statement - - so the only option (in your opinion) is to "give them a chance" - -

but you wouldn't you want to lynch Mixologist, the case you are most convinced on, and get a replacement for Ace, a case that wasn't so convincing?

What you said did indeed matter. I wanted you to feel more comfortable and at ease with what you would say, and thus perhaps more likely to give out telling information on who your partner is. I've caught scum many times before based on what their partners said (or didn't say) about them moreso than what they themselves said. If you felt you'd be lynched no matter what you said, I'm not sure how that would have affected your approach towards your scumbuddies, and the data would be less useful.

but wouldn't you say that scum are more likely to slip when their pressured, and not when they are able to make a good, well-thought-out post?

[Khamisa]

Do you think we should lynch the player most likely to be scum, or the person who plays the worst?

I think the player more likely to be scum. I'm not sure how that relates to the replacements though. In my opinion, we should have allowed time for both to be replaced.

I see Percy most likely as town; I don't think scum would be willing to do such difficult calculations, see the error in them, and fix them.

Unvote

I'm beginning to think Sotty7 is a better lynch today then AA23.

[Khamisa]

Why am I suddenly a better a lynch?

Both you and AA23 are scummy. However, if we lynch AA23, we get very little in the realm of relationships because he's made everyone mad, while you have some very perceptible relationships.

AA23: I'm not against your "motion to lynch Sotty", but this extensive planning is in your favor. Many of us still think you are scum.

Why are all these random words being bolded? I think It's a clever form of daytalking between the scum.

[Khamisa]

Emp: if dejkha and AA23 were bussing this entire game, one of them would of acted noticeably scummy, wouldn't they? No. AA23 and dejkha just bickered. Neither one of them looked more scummy than the other.

That is really awful logic.

AA23: Percy as the nightkill doesn't really surprise me, I found him mostly neutral.

Vote: Empking

that was an awfully weak and reaching way to try to get suspicion of off you.

[Khamisa]

Kham: You're voting me for trying to get suspicion off me despite posting before any suspicion was on me? Why are you lying? Why are you giving false reasons to your vote? Are you trying to get a mis-lynch? You're saying despite that Dej had around the most votes he wasn't scummy at all? You're saying I'm scum because you think AA is town?

I want answers to all those questions.

question one: suspicion carries over from other days, you know. You haven't been particularily useful, and your relation with dejkha is also suspicious.

question two: I'm not.
question three: I'm not.
question four: no
question five: I don't think I've said anything along this tangent. He was very hotheaded, plus the strange relation with you and him.
question six: No. but that does bring me to my next point...

can anyone see AA23 and Emp as mafia here? AA23 has made that huge plan, which is great if he's town, but only if he's town. It's very sided towards him. In no way does it guarantee his townness. And in his plan, he's very much decided on the fact that Empking is a mislynch. The only problem I can see with this is Emp's recent vote on AA23.

[Khamisa]

Who was suspicious of me?
You find me suspicious because you find me suspicious?
Isn't that circular?
Do you consider it a good reason?

Who wasn't suspicious of you?
No, I find you suspicious because of the things you've done.
This correct reasoning is not circular.
Yes, my reasoning is good.

[Khamisa]

How did I dodge the question?

Your question was "Do you consider it a good reason?"

My answer was "Yes, my reasoning is good."

Dodging the question would be "So-and-so thought it was a good reason." because I'm not stating my thoughts on my reason.

[Khamisa]

I find it especially strange that AA23 pointed out that Sotty7 suspected Mix (the person he replaced). There just isn't something right about that, and I don't believe suspecting yourself is sbustantial evidence. :S

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, hewitt, Empking
Empking 2 - Khamisa, Thesp

Sotty7 is -1
Empking is -2

[Khamisa]

I haven't changed my vote because Sotty7 has been lynched, I believe. Changing my vote would be useless.

I don't find it odd that Sotty7 suspected himself - he can't change anything Mixologist said or did, so he can announce that he finds what Mix did scummy - it's not really related to his play though.

The Emp case is what it is. dejkha, a wolf, was lynched. Empking and dejkha had a strange relationship. Therefore, it's highly likely that Emp is a wolf. mix was opportunistic on day 1 lynch, and that's basically it. There hasn't been anything more major than that.

Sure, Sotty7 is scummy, but Emp is as well. The problem with emp is that his playstyle is consistent, so a relation with another scum is probably the best evidence we're ever going to get.

[Khamisa]

AA23: On empking, silly. Sotty7 just cleared that up for us.

In seriousness, either lynch will be informative.

[Khamisa]

AA23: I don't know how I can be any more detailed. It's very simple terms here; Sotty7 and Empking are both looking very wolfy, but only one can be wolf and only one can be lynched today. I'm sticking with the person who I believe is the wolf. Plus, I also think Empking could very easily be mafia, and if he were to turn that way, my main suspect for his partner would be you.

[Khamisa]

AA23 - Why do the mafia need time? IMO, they should be snapping up any lynch that isn't one of their own.

[Khamisa]

I would like to declare here that I firmly believe that hewitt cannot be wolf with dejkha, due to him asking for the modkill. However, he still may be mafia.

[Khamisa]

It's not fun, it's not cleaver, it's irritating and you are the black hole of this game, sucking all the fun and actual playability that surrounds this game we all like to play. More often than not, your posts are full of such double talk and ridiculous leaps and conclusions that I find it hard that anyone takes what you say seriously. Thesp is already ignoring you and I am pretty damn close to doing that. Do you really think this way of playing helps you? Regardless of your alignment people not listening to you is detrimental.

QFT.

2QFT

I also agree that he may possibly be Mafia.

Can hewitt and Empking post their feelings about AA23? I feel he's almost definitely not a wolf due to interactions with dejkha (though he's less confirmed than hewitt), but I can see him as very viable scum with Empking too. That's why I'm voting Empking: It's just so more likely that he is at least some type of scum.

[Khamisa]

AA23: Let's switch perspectives here. You are very sold that Sotty7 is the wolf.

So what bars me/Empking/hewitt/Thesp/you from being the wolf? Some of these should be obvious, some should not.

Empking is desperately looking for a lynch, BTW.

[Khamisa]

AA23: Please answer my question. I'll answer yours when I have more time, a.k.a. this afternoon.

Unvote

I've also realized a major flaw I've been missing. If we are actively going after the wolf, and we mislynch and wolf hits town, the mafia wins. Now that I see this, I find it odd that AA23 has been trying to lynch the wolf, when clearly, lynching mafia is a much better choice here. Someone please tell me if there is a flaw in my thinking.

I've also neglected to find connections between the two dead scum and others, apart from dej-Emp. I plan to do this this afternoon.

[Khamisa]

Good game town, I realized we were somewhat doomed when the Empking case was formulated and it was obviously me and Thesp vs. town.

Thesp, you can post the QT if you want.

AA23, I don't know what to say, but maybe be a bit more yielding to other players opinions, you basically hovered over the sotty7/mix case the entire game, and even when you switched your vote for replacement purposes, it was a mislynch too. However, you did play in such a way that it was hard for me to try to make you look scummy, so good job there.