Mini 765 - Welcome to Hambargarville GAME OVER!!

[yellowbunny]

Unless, of course, I just hammered myself.

In which case, shit.

Well, its still twilight, so post away til Hambargarz makes it night!

@ yellowbunny: When did you find out that Looker was female?

Looker made reference to a boyfriend, so its more probable that she's female than male based on that. And since Looker didn't correct me, I assume that is the case. Plus her posts had a lot of sterotypical female traits to them.

[Idiotking]

I'd rather not, if I just hammered myself then it's not fair for me to keep talking while I'm being strung up.

[Idiotking]

Oh, by the way.


I told you so.

[Ojanen]

Wow. Just wow, Idiotking.
This really looks like I was painfully wrong about you.
Scum would go after the masons as their final attack to not give out information. Scum self-hammering is acceptable, unlike town.

If you're town, you have a huge problem with your attitude.

[Idiotking]

Oh, I'm very much town, Ojanen. Very much so.

[Ojanen]

We'll see soon if I was a fool to trust you.
If you are town, please never self-hammer in future, it screws your team.
Please don't give up so easily, please be more considerate of your team and please don't use circular logic about not being good enough.

If you're scum, never mind, you can laugh at me.

[Idiotking]

On a completely different note, Kreriov was actually the hammer, I was mistaken. My vote against myself was overkill :p

[X]

Welcome, BSY! Goodbye, IK? I really hope you're scum...I don't see why a townie would self-hammer like that.

HEAR THIS, THOUGH, PEOPLE! I AM STILL VERY GLAD WE LYNCHED WALL-E!!!!!!!! Even though he turned out town, he didn't look like it, and while he was alive, he was annoying as hell.

I don't really think it's a good idea to praise the death of a town-aligned player, regardless of how little you like him.

QFT.

1121 looks like a response to something, but I have no idea what to. And I still highly doubt that YB is lying, although possible.

We'll see soon if I was a fool to trust you.
If you are town, please never self-hammer in future, it screws your team.
Please don't give up so easily, please be more considerate of your team and please don't use circular logic about not being good enough.

If you're scum, never mind, you can laugh at me.

QFT.

On a completely different note, Kreriov was actually the hammer, I was mistaken. My vote against myself was overkill :p

10 alive means majority = 6. Your vote was the hammer.

[Kreriov]

If it was. In any case, if IK is dead, he should not be talking. If he is not dead, well, I suggest he should not be talking. He is just digging himself a bigger whole.

[X]

All I can promise is that I will have read through the whole thread by the end of Monday. Sorry for all of this, but I'm sure you'd rather have me stay than have to go through another tedious wait for a replacement.

This was written last Saturday...he did not comment on the game once Today.

Mod, can you reconfirm Hero's presence in the game or get a replacement?

[hambargarz]

PM'ing Hero

Idiotking,

Townie

, Lynched Day 2

Night 2 has begun

Please get your night actions in
Night will last 72 hours, no exceptions. No submitted action will equal no action for the night.

[hambargarz]

Another day another murder. Everyone wakes up to another day ... except one

StrangerCoug has been killed night 2. He was a

townie

It is now day 3. With 8 alive it takes 5 votes to lynch

MichelSableheart replaced Hero764
Thanks MichelSableheart!

[MichelSableheart]

Hello everyone, glad to be in this game.

I'm still in the proces of reading the thread. I've read the first nine pages so far. I've got some suspicions, but prefer to read the entire thread before voicing them.

If there are any questions people want answered by me, feel free to ask them. I can't look into the mind of my predecessors, but will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

[Sajin]

I need to follow up on Idiotking's case and the case against me, but first there's something that piqued my interest.

So I've been sort of confused by Sajin. First day I considered voting at him (documented in iso 34) but then started thinking he just has some kind of a non-standard philosophy regards information in mafia.

Anyway, it very much surprises me that he has posted a "towniest to scummiest" list of everyone.
Sajin, I'm very interested: why is it bad to do this on day 1 and good to do this on day 2?
Is this list your "long post" that you said was already ready on day 1 but didn't want to post before day 2?

Quotefest follows, please bear with me:
A lot of talk about lining up lynches from you. Your case on X is based on him saying on day1

7. I assert that your case is the best on the table, followed by Looker's who is pretty much not explaining himself, and Jase is really lurking hard, IMO.

To which you replied on day 1

@X-Stop lining up lynches. I am aware your mostly attacking one person, but that does not make it ok to list "top 3 cases". fos X

and on day 2

Also, X is the one that said Walle was the best case followed by looker and then Jace was looking lurky/scummy. I find statements like that scummy especially when made on day 1. I suppose its not lining up lynches in the direct sense; but all it does is allow for easier manipulation of lynches later. Notice his posts made this day? Who does he attack? People from his list. Awesome. I noticed he still questioned looker fairly hard even after the mason claim even. Any response to this?

Your definition of lining up lynches from day 1:

lining up lynches refers to deciding 2 or more lynch candidates for the noose on the same day. 1 for today and 1 for the next.

How is this fundamentally different from your own posting in the "towniest to scummiest" list post? (Two obvscum and stating either/or is more than likely scum)

@YB in response to 993- I think X is scummy as previously stated. I can make linkage theories if you want. I find it odd that X wan't to push lurker so much when YB has defended X at least twice on day1 with long verbage posts. There could be some very odd chainsaw defense going on here, but more than likely its that either X is scum or YB/"mason" is scum. Because I think the masons are town, it leads me to believe X is scum.
...
...
OBV scum-
SerialClergy- Leading Town right after a cop death? Convenient.
X- Attacking mason pair, method of attacks on Walle.

For the record, under normal circumstances I don't find listing one's suspicions scummy in itself at all, but Sajin's last post feels inconsistent to his earlier thoughts.

Also, I 've got to say that his case on Serial is bad.
It's based on the fact that Serial is active. He ties this to the fact that Jase wasn't. Jase and Serial can be independently scummy, but the argument that the playerslot was passive on day 1, active on day 2 and the cop died night 1 which makes the activity scummy is leaking a lot of water when the player changed. I don't understand what is scummy about asking questions and opinions, usually that would be called scumhunting, genuine or fake depending on alignment but nevertheless scumhunting.

I would consider his way of tying his views on Jase/Serial to be more in the spirit of lining up lynches than what X did on day 1 and day 2.

I know this isn't written out in a way that encompasses many questions but I hope you lighten me on your thought processes regarding these points, Sajin.

Day 1 I find lists bad for town. I was asked to make one I said fine, day 2. I did. I was unable to post before night as I had to V/LA(note sig). I am unsure how posting about things that happened that day are lining up lynches. I considered the night kill in to the list for the day.

The post about X and yellowbunny is simply me pointing out a inconsistency:

Yellowbunny defends X
Yellowbunny claims mason with Looker
X attacks masons
Yellowbuny defends X

In that order and as such seems like a circle of attacks that is inconsistent. I do not think I am being inconsistent here.

Question: Would you not have me attack serial now as per your reasoning? I think he tunneled on IK fairly hard yesterday.


Note to all V/LA for 48-60 hours or so. I am going back across country as noted in sig. I was available while here, but that happened to be at night, apologies. Will post when I get back with more details. Don't quick lynch without me again.

[MichelSableheart]

I'm affraid I won't be able to finish my reread now. I've read the first 17 pages, and skimmed a bit of the last few pages. I would like to raise some questions, even though these may have been discussed already or may not be very relevant.

I've read that yellowbunny and replacement of Cubarey claim to be masons. Has yellowbunny given a good explanation for her behaviour and suspicions towards him during day 1, as expressed in post #94, #131, #250 and #281?

In post #137, Cubarey states he is a townie. To what extend was this taken as a Vanilla Townie claim?

Unfortunately, two of the most active players of the pages I've read, Wall-E and Idiotking, are dead now, whereas most players still alive weren't huge participants. Hopefully I'll be able to get a better picture of things as I read further.

[Ojanen]

Welcome MichaelSableheart.

First off, I didn't know this was coming when I signed up for this game, but I'm currently traveling in Japan, pretty jetlagged and having loooong days. I'm gonna have quite limited access for the next two weeks, but I'll try to contribute every two days.

I really didn't expect a StrangerCoug nightkill. I was looking at a link between Kreriov and SC on day 2 so for me this was an elimination of a suspicion. Otherwise I have no immediate ideas about what this means.

About the masons - even though they're not getting nightkilled, I do believe yellowbunny is a townie mason. I looked at her posts from day 1 (in iso, so can't comment on the numbers Michael brought up). To me it seems yellowbunny is always defending cubarey even when she acknowledges his suspicious behaviour ("blah blah but probably just overzealous townie" and the rest of that variety).The very obvious and consistent protectivity/coaching yellowbunny exercises on day 1 towards cub/looker strongly reeks of mason win condition, not scum win condition. Combined to her pretty pro-town behaviour in my eyes I have her firmly on my town list.
yellowbunny, how much did bills talk to you in the night?
I really didn't like bills's minimalistic "IK looks desperate scum", three line contribution and vote -behaviour yesterday, but I do believe yb's mason claim.
In spite of that imo bad vote to Serial, I also currently have town read on X. And town read on Serial, in spite of the strong IK attack.
That leaves Kreriov, Michael, Sajin.

I am beginning to think the case against IK and even Sajin is stronger than what I have posted about Ojanen. Coug sort of opened my eyes a bit. Basically, he is right. I do not think I am trying to mess up the time continuum, but I do think that reading in iso and not trying to match up with the rest of that game caused me to make mistakes I should not have made.

Why did your eyes open only when someone voted you for the initial inconsistencies, why didn't you listen when I pointed them out?
I don't like the way Kreriov phases out of voting for me on day 2. His attack doesn't get support, on the opposite he gets flak for in. He says he thinks the other cases might be stronger but thinks he could be onto something. Then he takes a non-erroneous look on my posting (to make up for the inaccuracies in the eyes of others?). Then he says again other cases are stronger and unvotes, FoSses the popular suspicion IK. Then votes IK. Never pursues Sajin who he thinks is also a stronger case than mine.

Day 1 I find lists bad for town. I was asked to make one I said fine, day 2. I did. I was unable to post before night as I had to V/LA(note sig). I am unsure how posting about things that happened that day are lining up lynches. I considered the night kill in to the list for the day.

I didn't get the revelations I was looking for to your thought process from this.
Why is day 1 and day 2 so different to you? What was X doing that was bad about that comment you dubbed "lining up lynches" and how was it fundamentally different to your day 2 post?
Where is the big post you said you had ready on day 1 but didn't want to post before day 2?

The post about X and yellowbunny is simply me pointing out a inconsistency:

Yellowbunny defends X
Yellowbunny claims mason with Looker
X attacks masons
Yellowbuny defends X

Interesting. You think that it is unnatural/illogical to not find someone who attacks you automatically scummy?

Question: Would you not have me attack serial now as per your reasoning? I think he tunneled on IK fairly hard yesterday.

I don't understand your conclusion here. I thought your argument against him was very bad, on which I commented. From that does not follow that I would not have you attack him with sound reasoning. I personally atm find Serial townish but interaction and arguments against different players are good.

3 scum feels like a natural setup assumption at the moment. We really need to get the lynch right today.

[X]

Oh, my...I think that is the third time that I've seen a townie self-hammer. ACK!!!

Day 1 I find lists bad for town. I was asked to make one I said fine, day 2. I did. I was unable to post before night as I had to V/LA(note sig). I am unsure how posting about things that happened that day are lining up lynches. I considered the night kill in to the list for the day.

This doesn't change the fact that your list was fairly lacking. I can't fault you for being V/LA, but you're not saying too much.

The post about X and yellowbunny is simply me pointing out a inconsistency:

Yellowbunny defends X
Yellowbunny claims mason with Looker
X attacks masons
Yellowbuny defends X

In that order and as such seems like a circle of attacks that is inconsistent. I do not think I am being inconsistent here.

I didn't attack the masons terribly hard. I just didn't rule out the possibility of them being mafia together. What inconsistency did you see?

I've read that yellowbunny and replacement of Cubarey claim to be masons. Has yellowbunny given a good explanation for her behaviour and suspicions towards him during day 1, as expressed in post #94, #131, #250 and #281?

In post #137, Cubarey states he is a townie. To what extend was this taken as a Vanilla Townie claim?

The answer to both questions is not really. Good find. YB, at least answer the first question.

My primary suspicion is still on SerialClergyman. He has still to respond to stuff that I posted yesterday.

MichaelSableheart, I hope you don't mind being MS.

[yellowbunny]

Sajin wrote:
I've read that yellowbunny and replacement of Cubarey claim to be masons. Has yellowbunny given a good explanation for her behaviour and suspicions towards him during day 1, as expressed in post #94, #131, #250 and #281?

In post #137, Cubarey states he is a townie. To what extend was this taken as a Vanilla Townie claim?
The answer to both questions is not really. Good find. YB, at least answer the first question.

Actually, when I said in my claim post that it would be dreadfully obvious that Cub/Looker/Bill was my mason partner was a refernce to that. I didn't really address it cuz I thought it was obvious that...

...yellowbunny is always defending cubarey even when she acknowledges his suspicious behaviour ("blah blah but probably just overzealous townie" and the rest of that variety).The very obvious and consistent protectivity/coaching yellowbunny exercises on day 1 towards cub/looker strongly reeks of mason win condition, not scum win condition.

Also, Ojanen, your post is quite interesting. I have a bit more to add to the Hero/MS case, which I have been dying to bring up since yesterday, but did not want to attack an empty slot (a scummy thing to do imo).

Didn't night 1 last for a really looooong period of time? So long, in fact, that our mod had to post:

Just to let everyone know
Night 1 will be going on a little longer than usual. This is because not all players are present. Day 2 Will commence Sunday 17th May.

To avoid this in the future, from now on a strict 72 hour night will be enforced. No action submitted will result in no action for the night without exception.

Who was missing? Jase and Hero (correct me if I'm missing anyone). This makes me think that at least one of those two had a night choice to make...so I think at least one of them is either PR or scum.

I've suspected Hero as being scum for a while now, based on his entry into the game. I'd request that people go back and reread the initial snarking back and forth he and I had. At the time it not that much commented on, but I was at a disadvantage (as I couldn't reveal I knew he was attacking/voting for a town player). Hero's first move upon entering the game was to attack and vote Cubarey. I mean...really???? No discussion from him...no questions...just vote cubarey.

Considering that there were much more scummy acting players at that point in time...that is really odd. It reeks of someone who has perfect knowledge of town/scum. He is avoiding being on the obvious wagon (which turned to be town) and at the same time is trying to cast suspicions on another townie.

Add this to his reactions when I was questioning him. I thought that he was not handling them very well. Sure, it wasn't Wall-e sarcasm or an IK meltdown...but his posts seem a lot less cool and composed. Unfortunately, as I did not want to reveal what I knew about Cubarey at that point, I had to let it go (otherwise people would start wondering why I was attacking Cub's attacker so vehemently).

So, between the fact that Hero(turned ms) was awol during the end of day 1 and all of day 2 (and we know it is likely that one of the two people missing had a night action), his entrance into the game and subsequent melt-down-ish defenses...I'm going to

vote: MS

[yellowbunny]

Whoops, one more item:

yellowbunny, how much did bills talk to you in the night?

Bills talked more than Looker did, but I had asked him some questions which he didn't get a chance to answer.

[yellowbunny]

EBWOP: X quoted Sajin as saying something (which I later quoted)...he meant MS.

[MichelSableheart]

I have no problem with being called MS. Despite my signature, people tend to make mistakes spelling my name anyway. Usually, they add an 'a' in Michel, but that's the first time I saw someone writing Sajin instead of MichelSableheart

Actually, when I said in my claim post that it would be dreadfully obvious that Cub/Looker/Bill was my mason partner was a refernce to that. I didn't really address it cuz I thought it was obvious that...

...yellowbunny is always defending cubarey even when she acknowledges his suspicious behaviour ("blah blah but probably just overzealous townie" and the rest of that variety).The very obvious and consistent protectivity/coaching yellowbunny exercises on day 1 towards cub/looker strongly reeks of mason win condition, not scum win condition.

Very interesting response, and not at all the one I expected. Let's take a look at the posts I mentioned. I'll add links in adition to quotes for completeness.

post 94

@Cubarey: I agree with Idiot and Krer...calling Idiot scum for saying that his was a natural response is really weak.

The only other plausible explaination is that you are an innocent townie but are paranoid about anyone questioning your motives. Since I do not believe that you are paranoid I must assume that you are a Mafioso.

Um..you know this how? What evidence do you have AGAINST him being paranoid? If you have something, I'm missing it. While Idiot has said things which are noteworthy, I think you are grasping at straws on this one. Maybe I should call you a Mafioso for making such a strongly worded accusation on such flimsy evidence?

Even though this is not strictly an attack, it gives me a strong impression of the existence of doubt in yellowbounder on the alignement of Cubarey. I would not consider this post defending him.

post 131

[SNIP]Did Cubarey's comment strike me the wrong way? You bet - and I called him out on it. Do I want to hear more from Cubarey on this? Yeah, that would be helpful. But I am starting to get the vibe that Cubarey was just being overzealous. Still worthwhile to keep an eye on him, though.

[SNIP]

Again, expressing doubt on the alignement of a mason partner? If she had said "I can see why that looks suspicious but I don't think there's much in it", I would have agreed with Ojanen on this one. The way she worded it though, she would be putting pressure on a mason partner, and that seems an odd thing to do.

Post 250

[SNIP]

[SNIP]
YB says there that she sees a CUBAREY - Noob pairing likely. I can see CUBAREY, but Noob? I'm not so sure. Elaborate, please

My intention was to say that there COULD be a Cub-Noob paring which would explain Noob sticking up for Cub...not that there necessarily was. I think in subsequent posts I made it more clear that I wasn't so sure that's what was actually going on.
[SNIP]

Here, she corrects X when he states that she thought a Cuba - Noob pairing likely. However, she simultaneously explicitly leaves the possibility open for Cuba to be scum. Strange action if you're mason partners and know for certain that he's town.

Finally, post #281

@All - I am going to beat the Cubarey drum again. He basically fabricated a case against X, contradicting himself in the post where he tries to get a case going against X as well as the other post Jase originally pinged. Now he has failed to post in over a week. I do not advocate lynching someone because they have not posted, but it is suspicious as well as very frustrating.

QFT. I wonder if he flaked under pressure?

Kreriov makes a rather elaborate case against Cubarey, which yellowbunny QFT's. Where's the defending of a mason partner there?

Based on those posts, I do not at all find it obvious that you were constantly defending him. On these occasions, you actively (seem to) express doubt about his alignement and put him under pressure.

Who was missing? Jase and Hero (correct me if I'm missing anyone). This makes me think that at least one of those two had a night choice to make...so I think at least one of them is either PR or scum.

If there are still players who haven't claimed, I find this discussion rather unhelpful. I'm willing to go into this after I am sure everyone has claimed, meaning not before I've fully read the thread. Also, if there are still players who haven't claimed: please DON'T take this as a request for you to claim. If everyone has claimed, please remind me to reply to this when I've read the thread.

[SNIP]Hero's first move upon entering the game was to attack and vote Cubarey. I mean...really???? No discussion from him...no questions...just vote cubarey.

Excuse me?! The first post contentful post made by hero, in which he voted Cubarey, was post 307. I'll quote it at the bottom of this post. Are you serious when you say it contained no discussion, just a vote for Cubarey? You do know that was the post where he gave his opinion on all players in the game, don't you?

Also, eight players left. If there are three mafia, a lynch and a nightkill would make it impossible for us to lynch, so we could be in Lylo. The mafia would still need two pro-town players to vote before they can quicklynch, but it's still a good reason to be careful with your vote. Did you take that in account when voting me, yellowbunny?

Continuing my reread.

As promised, hero's post:

Alright, really sorry. I got to page 8 yesterday and was just like "screw it". Laziness took over. Here's my summary now:


qwints - Well, first I'll have to unvote my RV on him, its been long enough since the RVS lol. Anyways, he hasn't really posted much, but I like what I've seen of him from what he has posted. I couldn't find any flaws in his reasoning.

Ojanen - Good player. Nothing really too scummy about him. Not ruling out the possibility though, its just that there's other targets on this D1.

Wall-E (rp. Kieraen) - Alright, I really don't like how he's been playing. He asserts that he's definetly town. But his posting style is very arrogant at times, and he's got this "are you fucking retarded? of course I'm not mafia" tone to his posts. It's like he's trying to act as scummy as possible so that everyone will assume there's no way he's scum because he would be acting too obvious(even though his plan doesn't look to be working so well.) I also don't like how he thinks he can just ignore posts and get away with it because "I'm obviously not scum, stop wasting your time discussing me".

Another side points I'd like to make: He's been very confusing, hell he even changed his vote twice in one post. I just can't imagine why a town player would act like this. He isn't obvscum, but he certainly isn't obvtown, and he's not making any attempts to convince otherwise.

CUBAREY - My no. 1 suspect. I don't buy the noob defense at all(unlike my counterpart ). He even said at one point that he wasn't a noob because he could play mafia on other sites. This, coupled with the scumminess of his posts(which others have already pointed out, and I'm not going to restate unless requested) makes me the most obvious scum target atm. So Vote: CUBAREY

X - He's been getting some flak from people, but I generally agree with the majority of the posts he's made. I honestly don't have much to say on him right now. I'll be happy to answer any questions you have for me about his behavior though.

yellowbunny - As surprising as this may seem, I'm actually finding yellow here a possible scum target. It's just the vibe that I get from his posts, and I thought Wall E did a good job(despite my thoughts on him) in showing his argumental flaws. I don't have many examples to point to, and I'm certainly not near voting for him, but I don't like the vibes I get from him.

burfy - I'm not sure how I feel about burfy here. He's 100% neutral as far as I'm concerned. X did point out his flaws, and burfy did respond to them. His explanations were satisfactory I suppose, but not great by any means.

Kreriov - Not much to say. Probably not scum. Moving along.

Jase - His inactivity makes him look a bit bad, but he's not my prime suspect by any means. I haven't seen anything terribly wrong with his posts as of yet.

Idiotking - Ok, I was fine with him until a few pages back(I forget which), where he defends himself against Wall E. I'm not gonna go look for the exact quote unless requested, but he said something about Wall E voting for him because CUBAREY did, and I'm sitting there going WTF? CUBAREY had been inactive by the time Wall E started doing all his vote jumps between him and X. The defense just made absolutely no sense. He's my no. 3 suspect right now. His inactivity doesn't make him look much better.

Sajin (rp. Lleu) - Not much to say about him. I barely remember what Lleu, and Sajin hasn't done anything wrong yet. Ok for now.

Hero764 (rp. The World No.1 Noob) - Obvious scum.

[yellowbunny]

yellowbunny wrote:
Actually, when I said in my claim post that it would be dreadfully obvious that Cub/Looker/Bill was my mason partner was a refernce to that. I didn't really address it cuz I thought it was obvious that...

Ojanen wrote:
...yellowbunny is always defending cubarey even when she acknowledges his suspicious behaviour ("blah blah but probably just overzealous townie" and the rest of that variety).The very obvious and consistent protectivity/coaching yellowbunny exercises on day 1 towards cub/looker strongly reeks of mason win condition, not scum win condition.



Very interesting response, and not at all the one I expected. Let's take a look at the posts I mentioned. I'll add links in adition to quotes for completeness.

MS, I think what you are trying to do here is very snakey. Only an extremely foolish or niaeve player would fail to call out her mason partner for scummy behavior. Why? 1.) You do not want to make it blatantly obvious to scum that you two are tied. 2.) Your mason partner KNOWS YOU ARE HIS/HER PARTNER. Thus, he or she will read your posts in that light...and take criticism as coaching (as its intended).

So, lets go through this step by step...

yellowbunny wrote:
@Cubarey: I agree with Idiot and Krer...calling Idiot scum for saying that his was a natural response is really weak.

Quote:
The only other plausible explaination is that you are an innocent townie but are paranoid about anyone questioning your motives. Since I do not believe that you are paranoid I must assume that you are a Mafioso.

Um..you know this how? What evidence do you have AGAINST him being paranoid? If you have something, I'm missing it. While Idiot has said things which are noteworthy, I think you are grasping at straws on this one. Maybe I should call you a Mafioso for making such a strongly worded accusation on such flimsy evidence?

Even though this is not strictly an attack, it gives me a strong impression of the existence of doubt in yellowbounder on the alignement of Cubarey. I would not consider this post defending him.

I disagreed with what Cubarey was doing here, and thought he was putting himself in a dangerous position. However, I COULD NOT SAY THAT. So what do I do? Tell him its a flimsy attack and makes him look like scum. That is coaching.

yellowbunny wrote:
[SNIP]1.) Did Cubarey's comment strike me the wrong way? You bet - and I called him out on it. 2.) Do I want to hear more from Cubarey on this? Yeah, that would be helpful. 3.) But I am starting to get the vibe that Cubarey was just being overzealous. Still worthwhile to keep an eye on him, though.

[SNIP]

Again, expressing doubt on the alignement of a mason partner? If she had said "I can see why that looks suspicious but I don't think there's much in it", I would have agreed with Ojanen on this one. The way she worded it though, she would be putting pressure on a mason partner, and that seems an odd thing to do.

Complete mischaracterization of the post. Saying that I think he is overzealous townie is "expressing doubt"? Well, again, did you expect me to claim so early in the game? Specifically, look the numbering I added. 1 is warning Cubarey he is coming across badly. 2 is coaching -- he isn't saying enough to defend himself, he needs to say more. 3 is stating I think he is town, but hedging a little to prevent it from being obvious I have additional information (bear in mind I hadn't claimed yet).

yellowbunny wrote:
[SNIP]
X wrote:

[SNIP]
YB says there that she sees a CUBAREY - Noob pairing likely. I can see CUBAREY, but Noob? I'm not so sure. Elaborate, please

My intention was to say that there COULD be a Cub-Noob paring which would explain Noob sticking up for Cub...not that there necessarily was. I think in subsequent posts I made it more clear that I wasn't so sure that's what was actually going on.
[SNIP]

Here, she corrects X when he states that she thought a Cuba - Noob pairing likely. However, she simultaneously explicitly leaves the possibility open for Cuba to be scum. Strange action if you're mason partners and know for certain that he's town.

Again...did you expect me to say "Nope guys...not only did I not mean to imply I thought there WAS a Cub-Noob pairing...but I also looked into my crystal ball and it told me it just wasn't so"?

yellowbunny wrote:
Kreriov wrote:
@All - I am going to beat the Cubarey drum again. He basically fabricated a case against X, contradicting himself in the post where he tries to get a case going against X as well as the other post Jase originally pinged. Now he has failed to post in over a week. I do not advocate lynching someone because they have not posted, but it is suspicious as well as very frustrating.

QFT. I wonder if he flaked under pressure?

Kreriov makes a rather elaborate case against Cubarey, which yellowbunny QFT's. Where's the defending of a mason partner there?

I QFTed it because its TRUE. Cub did fabricate a case against X, and I have no idea what he was thinking. Cub failing to post was very bad for town. Lynching someone who is awol is a scummy thing to do. I then go on to suggest that he is awol because he flaked...which is a defense not of Cubarey's actions (which are at that point just BAD)...but of the slot, and of the replacement I anticipated coming.

yellowbunny wrote:
[SNIP]Hero's first move upon entering the game was to attack and vote Cubarey. I mean...really???? No discussion from him...no questions...just vote cubarey.

Excuse me?! The first post contentful post made by hero, in which he voted Cubarey, was post 307. I'll quote it at the bottom of this post. Are you serious when you say it contained no discussion, just a vote for Cubarey? You do know that was the post where he gave his opinion on all players in the game, don't you?

MS, I have to wonder if you are purposefully misunderstanding the point. I said he didn't ask Cubarey (or anyone else) questions and get a repsonse (aka "discussion") prior to voting. What he posted was just a wall post of his suspicions...that's more of a monologue.

Also I very obviously was referencing this post (as it is the one where he votes Cubarey) so your little "You do know that was the post where he gave his opinion on all players in the game, don't you?" is obviously designed to try to undercut my arguments by making me appear flaky. Scummy.

The mafia would still need two pro-town players to vote before they can quicklynch, but it's still a good reason to be careful with your vote. Did you take that in account when voting me, yellowbunny?

I have felt since Hero's entrance into the game that your slot is a scum slot. Therefore I consider the possibility of a quicklynch by scum slim to none.

I think that scum is waiting for town to lynch one of the masons, and then they will NK the other so we never have any confirmed town. Since the fight against Cub/Looker/Bill isn't going so well, I think they are switching tactics and trying to go after me with these weak mischaracterizations...I think that its pretty obvious I was coaching Cubarey. Actually, when (I forget who...either SC or Serial...I can look it up if anyone wants me to) came into the game, they indicated that they thought I looked scummy FOR DEFENDING CUBAREY so much.

Sorry, MS...I think Hero tipped your hand before you got in here. But your actions are just making me more and more confident I read the cards right.

[SerialClergyman]

Hmm

Well I'm totally confused unfortunately. I'll go through some of my thoughts.

I was really disappointed that IK self-hammered. I think we gave him enough reason to stick in the game and by self-hammering he denied us more of his thoughts which are of course useful as he's confirmed town, and he's denied us the chance to look at the full wagon.

However, we do have some interesting information from the wagon. I think it's probably unlikely IK was lynched without any scum support. So let's have a look who was on the wagon.

Me. Well yes, I'm an obvious target because I led suspicion on IK. The question the town has to ask is whether my suspicion was a fabrication on someone I knew was town or a genuine scumhunt. I would say that it is clear I was genuinely trying to find scum, but I'm happy to address questions if someone finds something they see as twisted reasoning or something dodgy in my posts. And at the end of the day, the power of the townie is to be vocal and unwaivering because, after all, you're expendable. So I take full responsibility for getting it wrong, but I hope that you don't consider me scummy because of it.

StrangerCoug - Confirmed town.

Kreriov - Was the second last to vote. Before he did vote, he defended the masons for some significant period of time. Asked IK to stop posting in twilight, which I thought was odd. It's not like he could harm us at that stage. Was very fixated on a connection between myself, X and IK. All in all - hard to say. There are hints of scummy things there but I'd have to do a proper rehash to see if there was anything there.

bills and YB - The mason pair. I think I made a mistake about the masons. I think I should have pushed the town into a definitive position, at least publicly. If we all hadn't questioned the masons I think they'd have had to be NKed. But because I and others stilll showed scepticim, especially near the lynch, the narrative of them not being NKed still holds water. Having said that, I think I'm going to have to start questioning them.

bills posts one of the worst posts so far to accuse IK. 1107. The case was weak, his conclusions were poor, and he voted then went away again. This continues a long history of the CUBE,looker,bills chatacter just being damn scummy but being coasted through the game.
YB also has voted IK, albeit with a bit more reason. That's the second town lynch the masons have been a big factor in - being half of the non-confirmed side of this lynch (yb+bills and SC+kreirov) and essentially forcing a wall-e lynch with a claim last time.

So I have to go back and do re-reads and things like that, but I think the premise that there have to be at least 1 scum on the wagon points to the following conclusion -

we have at least a 1/3 chance of hitting scum if we aim at either me, kreirov or the masons. I know I'm innocent, you don't, that makes it 1/2 for me. So I ahve my job cut out for me trying to work out which group are scum and convincing you guys it's them and not me we should be voting for.

Note: This is not necessarily true, just true if we accept that there must be at least 1 scum on that wagon. I think that having 3/4 of the non-voters scum is probably a bit much to accept, but it's possible.

(by the way, I believe there are 3 scum. in newbie games, there are 7 town to 2 scum, occasionally with a power role. We have had at least a cop and 12 people, plus any other power roles that are out there (and possibly mason, of course). That suggests to me it's likely to be more than 2. This has some interesting gameplay issues - firstly, a wrong vote on a townie could see 3 scum votes and that'd be the game so BE VERY CAREFUL WITH YOUR VOTES. Secondly, a nolynch vote here is a perfectly valid option. If the scum NKed, then there would be 7, we'd still be in lylo but we'd have better odds of hitting scum.)

[SerialClergyman]

Just reading through some of the posts above me, I'm incorrect, scum would need 2 town votes on someone to hammer. But even so, please, please be careful with your vote.

[yellowbunny]

However, we do have some interesting information from the wagon. I think it's probably unlikely IK was lynched without any scum support. So let's have a look who was on the wagon.

we have at least a 1/3 chance of hitting scum if we aim at either me, kreirov or the masons. I know I'm innocent, you don't, that makes it 1/2 for me. So I ahve my job cut out for me trying to work out which group are scum and convincing you guys it's them and not me we should be voting for

Very WIFOM. Would scum want to be on a townie wagon to kill town, or not want to be on a townie wagon to avoid suspicion? Both seem very reasonable to me. Your argument is flawed.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you gave us your opinion on Ojanen's point about the three people she thinks are most likely scum, and my case against Hero/MS.