Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[Nikanor]

Hello everyone!

Vote: Mastin

For not confirming yet. He and his partner(s) are probably writing his scumclaim now!

[Nikanor]

@Kill-kill: Your random vote seems very out of place there. Where do you fall on the DTM-hohum debate?

@DTM: Your post 11 is the definition of bitching. You're complaining about the Mastin bandwagon and defending him before he even has the chance to post. Which raises the question, why are you defending Mastin against an L-3 wagon, DTM?

Unvote. Vote: DTMaster

[Nikanor]

DTM: I don't care about what you said in parentheses. I care about this:

Mastin still hasn't confirmed. What are the chances that he is reading the game so far.

That's defending.

@hohum: Why isn't your vote on DTM yet? You seem to agree with my post 20, so why are you still voting for Mastin?

[Nikanor]

@DTM: You agree that your post 11 can be interpreted as defending Mastin. That makes post 14 OMGUS, does it not?

[Nikanor]

@DTM:
1. You're bitching about the wagon by defending Mastin. I thought this should be fairly obvious.
2. I don't see the point of this point.
3. You said: 'He hasn't confirmed, what are the chances he is reading this game?' right after he was put at L-3 for the sake of a good bandwagonning. If you can't see how that is defending him, I can't help you.
4.

Parentheses (singular, parenthesis)—sometimes called round brackets, curved brackets, oval brackets, or just brackets, or, colloquially, parens — contain material that could be omitted without destroying or altering the meaning of a sentence.

Don't blame me if you lack basic knowledge of English grammar.

@hohum:

I also care when other people tell ME what to do with MY vote. That's called leading.

Is this directed at me?

@DTM (again): Why have you ignored my post 24?

[Nikanor]

I just said: He hasn't confirmed what are the chances he is reading this game?

You are admitting to ignoring what I wrote in parenthesis, which is part of what I said. Explain yourself why you chose to ignore it when quoting me?

So it's okay for you to paraphrase, but it is not okay for me to paraphrase the same thing. Double standards much?

[Nikanor]

Yes, that was directed at you.

Well, I don't see where I TOLD you to place your vote anywhere. I simply asked a question, that question being why you thought your vote was better used on Mastin rather than DTM, even though you clearly agreed to my point against him. Please answer the question this time instead of avoiding it.

[Nikanor]

I've played with DTM and hohum.
DTM makes long-winded posts, but I only played with him for about a week after he replaced into a game of mine before I got nk'd.
I'm playing a game with hohum. He is abrasive and seems to tunnel a lot. I find it strange that he has switched his vote to me so easily.
I've pseudo-played with Cain and saberwolf (that being the newbie game where day three both started and ended when I was V/LA. Both saberwolf and Cain replaced in close to the start of day three).
I've briefly played with ThAdmiral. (He posted once after replacing in and got Nk'd).

[Nikanor]

You're doing an excellent job of introducing a lot of hostility and misdirection into the discussion so far.

Thanks. I'm glad to see someone can out-do you, hohum.

[Nikanor]

you seem eager to derail a BW in progress and just as quickly start up a new one. Only difference is this one isn't RVS.

That was an attack? I think real reasons are much better for starting a BW over random reasons, thank you very much. Are you telling me you think the opposite?

[Nikanor]

Sorry dude, but I'm not going to follow YOUR script. You had no right to question my vote (or lack there of) when the original target of my aggression has yet to present himself in thread. You and DT both effectively mooted pressure on a potentially useful wagon.

Did you agree with my post 20 when you said, 'Well said, Nikanor.' in post 21? If not, what was the point of that post? If so, why was your vote left on Mastin? If you choose to not answer this question again, why are you not answering my question?

[Nikanor]

2. The point is read my 27. I agree that you can interpret my post as a defense post, but I'm asking you to explicitly show how I did it

It's all about context. I can't explain your post any more than I already have.
There is no such thing as a post with no purpose. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

[Nikanor]

@DTM: Do you find hohum to be scummier than myself at this point? If so, is it for the same reason(s) you initially voted for him? If not, what convinced you that I was scummier than he?

[Nikanor]

those so far in this tunneling: In ONE post, can you please target each player [including myself] and analyze everything they have done, and why you think each one is scummy/not scummy in their own right?

So long as you respond to your own request as well.

[Nikanor]

I'm attacking nikanor for attacking me for not voting you.

What? I never attacked you. I'm just trying to get you to answer my bloody question! I have legitimate reasons for doing so. If you are town, your answer to my question will affect my opinion of you accordingly. If you have a reason to not answer my question, say so. 'Your question is dumb' is not an acceptable response. Even stupid questions have meaning.

[Nikanor]

@hohum: So you're saying your random pressure vote on Mastin was more valuable than a vote with some (if little) basis on DT? That's the interpretation I'm pulling from your one answer that is anything close to acceptable.
hohum, some advice: Answer questions well, and your answers won't be questioned. You wonder why people keep asking you the same question? They're not stupid, you just haven't clearly laid out your answer to a degree they find acceptable. Instead of resorting to insult, perhaps you could clarify your original answer next time? It would save everyone quite a bit of trouble in the long run.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor: If you don't like my answers that's your problem, not mine.

I assume my interpretation is correct, then.

I'll throw my vote around as I see fit.

I've never said you shouldn't. I asked if you thought one bandwagon was better than a potential bandwagon. But this conversation has gone on long enough. I have your answer, that's enough for me.

[Nikanor]

defending other players is not [always] scummy.

Defending others is not scummy

if you have reason to think they are town.

DTM has no reason to think Mastin is town. Mastin hasn't even posted yet. Thus, DTM's defense of Mastin is scummy.

I tend to read it as: I don't like where your current vote is, why not vote for DTM or hohum?

You're right, it wasn't intentional. I meant that his random vote felt very out of place in the middle of a hohum-DTM squabble. The fact he doesn't say anything about the debate going on around him, then disappears, made me ever so slightly suspicious of him.

Why haven't you tried to make me switch my vote? Why just focus on hohum? He may have agreed with you at one point [but then again, i partially did too], but you shouldn't target like that.

I'm looking for potential links. I asked him if he thought DTM deserved a vote based upon the evidence I put forth, since he seemed to agree with me. In my opinion, random votes should be abandoned as quickly as possible in favour of legitimate votes. This is why I questioned hohum's vote choice.

it is very unlikely that all three of them: DT, nik and hohum, are all mafia . I would put nik on opposite sides of DT and hohum if any of them are scum

Wow. Selective scumhunting already? Isn't it a bit too early for that?
Also, buddying of hohum is noted.

[Nikanor]

EBWOP: Never mind that selective scumhunting comment. I get it now.

[Nikanor]

if I offended someone I apologize

Pre-emptively apologizing is a sign of weakness and/or wanting to be on everyone's good side, which is a scummy trait. Personally, I think it's the former, but it's something I'll keep in mind for later.

Nikanor, I didn't comment on the L-3 situation because at this point I really don't think it matters.

I asked you to comment on the minor disagreement between DTM and hohum on page two. Does it matter now? No. You also acknowledge that in your post. So why do you continue to provide your interpretation? To me, this feels like a post for the sake of posting.
Do you have anything new to bring to the table, Kill?

[Nikanor]

I asked you to comment on the minor disagreement between DTM and hohum on page

one

Fixed.

[Nikanor]

it's the start of the game so you get extremely picky over the small things

Well, I'd rather be picky and have something to talk about than not be picky and just sit around twiddling my thumbs.

Speaking of which, where is everyone? Surely they've had enough time to catch up and provide insight by now.

[Nikanor]

Toro: That's what the RVS is about. Have you never played a game on this site before?

[Nikanor]

In other words, hasdgfas, how is that scummy?

Are you kidding? I'll let Cow answer this one, but I feel it should be pretty obvious.

[Nikanor]

I know this game is about implicit reasoning, but if you have nothing to hide then you should be able to explicitly express yourself. Asking people to do their own interpretations of your arguments (which is the point I put against Nik) is the same thing as putting the words in their mouth for you. Yes it's good to think this out on your own, but it's also bad because you assume too much from them. (My bit of mafia theory)

Scum aren't going to come and explicitly say, 'We're scum. Lynch us now, please.' A lot of scumhunting is implicit reading.

[Nikanor]

I put a vote on a guy who hopped on a bandwagon on the first page, and all of a sudden I'm scum.

Nobody said you were scum. Guilty conscience?
While I do like my DTM vote, I believe this one will serve me better:

Unvote. Vote: Toro.

IGMEOY: DTM

[Nikanor]

He goes: my case is obvious so I don't need to.

No, I went: I cannot make my case more obvious than I already have. You were implicitly defending Mastin from an L-3 RVS bandwagon. I cannot make it any clearer than that.

@Paragraph I apparently did not understand: Sorry, guess I misunderstood it myself. I thought you were talking about yourself not being able to express yourself explicitly, not me.

[Nikanor]

I agree with this, I even said I do not find it scummy in my 11 .

Stop saying this. You keep bringing this up, even though that has never been an accusation against you. Stop using this as a defense. It is irrelevant.

[Nikanor]

One of the interpretations was I was uncomfortable about the wagon and I tore it down. How does my point not apply to this statement?

The argument was that you were uncomfortable about the bandwagon because you and Mastin are both scum and you are trying to protect a scumbuddy by trying to tear down his wagon. That was the original argument. It has nothing to do with you thinking the wagon was scummy. So stop bringing that up.

[Nikanor]

I want to understand how I bitched about the bandwagon

You implicitly defended Mastin. Defending Mastin against a bandwagon is the same as bitching about the bandwagon.

[Nikanor]

This game is turning into newb central. -_-;

FoS: Everyone who is lurking

Lurking is more of a scumtell in this game. Mafia-tell, specifically. If the mafia can lay low enough to not get lynched or nk'd by the werewolves, they win automatically after three days of continual lynched/nk'd townies. I tell this to the werewolves as well. It's in both the town's and werewolves' best interest for nk's to be directed at mafia. Aim for the lurkers, and you will be more likely to hit mafia, werewolves.

[Nikanor]

It's null either way, and I think anyone perpetuating the issue to be scummy (has,nik)

Are you kidding me? You really believe anyone with a differing opinion to be scummy?
DTM himself has acknowledged that his post can be interpreted as defending.
I don't like your vote, either. You call two people scummy, then vote for a completely different person. Why is that?

[Nikanor]

Did you see Cain's gem of a post? Easily the most anti-town post in this game so far.

You said it was useless. Not that it was anti-town. That is why I disagreed with it.

I just think that continuing that argument is counterproductive and people continuing it 5 pages later might be trying to distract the town from finding scum.

The argument should continue for as long as it has to in order for it to reach a conclusion.
In any case, I think the words you were looking for are, 'anti-town,' not 'scummy'. I do not agree with you, but it is reasonable to think of it as anti-town. It is not reasonable to think continuing a discussion that could lead us to scum is scummy, however.

[Nikanor]

Agh! The spam! It's horrible! M-my eyes!
I have stuff to say about it, but I'll let the targets of your posts answer before I say anything.

[Nikanor]

*Facepalm*.
Zazie is doing a good job of scumhunting. Asking questions IS scumhunting, so long as the questions are followed up on, etc. which I believe Zazie has done. You are calling his scumhunting crap because it is directed at you. This post of yours is so scummy it's ridiculous.

Unvote. Vote: saberwolf.

Also, I'm curious about why you think Zazie is werewolf and not mafia. Any specific reason for thinking that?

while this post does make sense, it gives me the slightest feeling of mafia redirecting the gun onto someone else.

I like how you simultaneously agree with my post and say I'm scummy for it.

[Nikanor]

Post 101 – Nik comments for the second time about Post 86. The first time, it seemed rather passive, just a question. But in this post, it seems an attack, while he didn’t comment to Toro’s answer. So can you, Nik, post your thoughts about Toro’s answer?

I thought I had? To which answer are you referring? I see multiple posts that can be interpreted as an answer.

[Nikanor]

My vote puts saber at L-2, by the way.

[Nikanor]

theres a difference between asking questions to get answers, and then overloading the game with questions so that we're too busy answering questions to ask any of our own.

You have answered all of Zazie's questions. I do not see what is impeding you from asking questions now.

[Nikanor]

Btw, hope you guys realise that because I'm losing the battle, it makes me more likely to be town. Mafia at least know who they are, same with werewolves, therefore they can gang up on an issue and make the other guy look bad. If a non mafia starts a case on me, the mafia arent gonna step in, and same if it were werewolves. All I can hope for are town support, which isn't gonna happen much.

Your appeal to emotion will get you nowhere with me. If you were town, you should be able to satisfactorily defend yourself. I think you are scum because you are not defending yourself well.

[Nikanor]

we are more likely to hit an anti-town member by going after a lurker.

Do you think we should lynch saber today or some random lurker?

[Nikanor]

EBWOP: Who do you think is most worthy of a lynch today?

[Nikanor]

I asked you the question so you could stop fencesitting.
@Scott: Do you think saberwolf is a good lynch for today? If not, who do you suggest lynching instead? (A specific person, please, not just 'a lurker').

[Nikanor]

I like my vote where it is at the moment. Cain has done nothing to help the town, but is around to pop in if addressed. It seems like he is actively lurking.

Ah, thank you.

[Nikanor]

Hey, sorry I haven't posted recently, my other games picked up.
I'll catch up tomorrow or the next day.

[Nikanor]

Don't worry folks, I'm still here, I just died for a couple days.
Anyway, I'm reading up tonight. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow night.

[Nikanor]

Okaaaay, reading from page 12.
...
This is going to take a while.

[Nikanor]

Agh!
Lost my post.
Expect me to post again soon, as I am unofficially caught up (the paperwork hasn't gone through yet to make it official).

[Nikanor]

As scum, what do I gain from stopping a conversation between three other people? [anyone can answer this]

You can squelch discussion against a partner without defending him outright. That seems pretty advantageous to scum, if you ask me. The two-way defending between DTM and saber is noted.

@Zazie's question: I was waiting for Cow to answer Toro's post, but then I forgot about it. I'll address it now, though.
Toro was making something that is not scummy into something that is scummy, which is in itself quite scummy.

Did I forget anything? I had a couple more things in my original post, but I forgot them. :/
(Note to self, start writing posts in Notepad).

[Nikanor]

I think it's pretty likely that there is 1, 2 or 3 anti-town on the Cain wagon right now so I will be concentrating on those 5 players that voted for me (Cain.)

Why is it unlikely for there to be four or five scum voting you?

Seeing the vote count I can't see Saber not wagon voting for me (Cain) if he isn't anti-town.

He was too busy with his OMGUS on Zazie to hop onto the Cainwagon.

[Nikanor]

Seeing the vote count I can't see Saber not wagon voting for me (Cain) if he isn't anti-town.

Triple-negatives confuse me.
It does seem to imply knowledge of alignment, but the triple-negative is just as likely a town mistake as it is a scum slip.

[Nikanor]

As Scott points out in your 398 sabre is voting for you. Scum slip? Reading slip? Up for debate.

Way to say something without saying anything at all.
I think that when the Cain bandwagon started, saberwolf's vote was on Zazie. That's what I meant when I said what I said.

[Nikanor]

No, I'm in another game with hohum, and he's silent in that one as well, so I wouldn't consider it a tell.
As for this 'big post' you speak of, I can't seem to find where I promised one. Am I missing it?

[Nikanor]

But I never actually promised a big post. You just took it as a given that I was going to make a large post.

[Nikanor]

Sure, I'll post it later tonight.

[Nikanor]

Kill Kill: I'm a bit confused about Kill Kill. He voted for Cain but subsequently put forth reasons how Cain would be town...not sure what to make of this.

Fence riding

with a hidden vote? Trying to make it seem like he was defending someone while still voting for them? Like I said, confused.

Bolded is mine. Note the irony.
In fact, most of his post is fencesitting. He claims a neutral read on everyone but Scott. Saying that it is pretty likely that at least one scum was on your bandwagon is pretty scummy as well. It allows you to say, 'Oh, that person wasn't scum? Well, there has to be at least one. On to the next one!' Aside from that, I don't know why you said 1-3 instead of 1-5. Seems like a slip to me.

To be clear on this list. This is only ranking those that had votes on Cain (me) per my thoughts that there must be scum in there somewhere.

Can you list your top three scumspects please?

Contrary to what I've said above, I get the feeling peacesells is town. First, he mistakes scum for being able to talk during the day, which I think is a minor townslip. On this subject, where else have you played mafia, peacesells?
Also, instead of immediately pushing your wagon, saber, he goes and votes someone completely different. His votehop in his first two posts is borderline scummy (change this to 'extremely scummy' if saber flips scum), but refusing to push an opposing bandwagon is a towntell, imo (unless that opposing bandwagon flips scum, in which case it's a scumtell).
All in all, I think that if saberwolf flips scum, either DTM or peacesells is scum. DTM for the two-way buddying; peacesells for the votehop in his first two posts.

[Nikanor]

Kill Kill: I'm a bit confused about Kill Kill. He voted for Cain but subsequently put forth reasons how Cain would be town...

not sure what to make of this.

Fence riding with a hidden vote? Trying to make it seem like he was defending someone while still voting for them? Like I said, confused.

Lumi: Seems a bit paranoid that people continue to "singel" him/her out.

Not sure what to make of this

but seems really worried about players directing attention his/her way without any actual votes.

DT: If there is a player type in this game I can relate to the most it's DT. His early discuss about Mastin is probably one I would have agreed with. Why jump on someone who hasn't even showed up yet? FWIW I've played with Mastin and his Wall of text was tiresome...along with his insistance that we must META-game him. I have a hard enough time reading everything in one game let alone reading someone elses 5 other games. Sheesh! Anyway, back on topic.

I don't see anything particularly good or bad about DT so far.

Bolded is the part that makes it fencesitting.
Your Toro analysis is only slightly fencesitting because you seem to say you agree with him. I assumed from that you were saying you find him pro-town.
Also, you have gone from 'not sure what to make of this' to 'second on my scumlist' on lumi. Care to point out what about her you find scummy?

[Nikanor]

I really don't think hohum's lurking is much of a scumtell.
He seems to be dead in another game I'm in with him as well.
I would prefer a forced replacing of hohum than a lynch, if possible, since I believe him to not be scummy enough for a lynch.

[Nikanor]

he is flat-out active lurking. He posted a smiley for reasons either to avoid a forced replacement or avoid a prod. He has said nothing of value for over a week when he's had plenty of chances to and is posting in other games. This is straight-up scummy.

I didn't realise he was posting in other games. In another game I was in with him, he just got mislynched today for doing almost the same as he's done here. Can you provide game names (since our mod doesn't allow links, although honestly I don't see the problem when we're just using the links to cite easily verifiable fact)?

Not liking how saber got his own wagon. If he flips scum, Toro in particular is scummy as hell

Why Toro in particular? Why not peacesells or Cow?

[Nikanor]

First off, talking about ongoing games is the same thing as giving links to them. You just don't discuss them. Ever. That's one of the main rules of this entire site.

I was providing only hard facts that could be discerned by reading the thread. Is that still not allowed? I mean, how else does one provide evidence for claims like, 'He has been posting elsewhere, therefore he's lurking.' I agree with not actually discussing ongoing games, but if the link is used only as a citation, it should be okay to use, in my opinion.

[Nikanor]

@peacesells: Yes, you're allowed to use information from completed games, but not from ongoing games. I knew this rule, but I was not aware that you could not cite verifiable evidence by linking to the game.
/Newbie rule discussion.

@Mod: Please edit my posts as you see fit to remove references to ongoing games.

[Nikanor]

I think it is pretty thin to consider saying someone is posting in another game as discussing THAT game. I think you are arguing semantics for a dubious reason.

Wow, talk about crappy accusations.

FoS: peacesells.

[Nikanor]

Now that the attack on ZazieR is kosher all of a sudden, I'd just like to remind people who thought of it first, just to see if the attack suddenly stops or actually sticks.

Don't worry, it won't stick, because it is incorrect.
I define a scummy post as one that reflects on the poster's anti-town alignment. Since Zazie's post style is consistent no matter his role, it is not indicative of his role, and is not a scumtell.
However, if someone such as Cow started taking up whole pages with his post-spam, it would be a major scum-tell, as it is beneficial for scumCow to do so, and it is not the typical behaviour of townCow.
What I'm trying to say is that while Zazie's posting style is arguably scummy, it is definitely NOT a scumtell, as it is consistent with both his town and scum play.
So there is no need to worry about getting to look pro-town by being the first to attack Zazie, saber. I agree with Scott's 537.

[Nikanor]

Note how this didn't start as a huge attack on zazier, more a "if you keep doing this after I say it's distracting, I will call you out on it being scummy"

I know. If I thought you were making scumtells out of nothing, I would have called you out on it.

[Nikanor]

@peacesells: What do you think of the hohum wagon?

[Nikanor]

Considering there is only one power role (seer) in this open setup, I see no point to claiming.

Do you mean no point in claiming at L-2, or no point in claiming at all?

[Nikanor]

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

Well, if someone we were about to lynch ends up geting nk'd, it's better for the town because it gives us more of a chance to hit scum with our lynch, and it forces scum to use their nk on a potential mislynch.
On that note, if someone falseclaims seer, I recommend the true seer to not counterclaim until the day before lylo, so that we get as many investigations in as possible, while still leaving room for a mislynch to confirm or deny the seer's counterclaim.

[Nikanor]

In this setup, claiming at all. If hohum claimed VT right now, would we all get off his case?

No, but if he claimed seer, that's a different story.
Not giving him a chance to claim is foolish. Only scum can benefit from the accidental lynching of a power role. I don't see why you are opposed to a claim, if you are a part of the town.

[Nikanor]

Is this working well in hohum's favour though?...all he's gotta do is read the threads and act accordingly now that we prematurly set the stage up with this whole discussion. However it is almost a guarantee now that he won't live past night 1.

Way to try to discredit a potential seer claim by hohum.
And it's almost guaranteed he won't live through night one IF he claims seer.

[Nikanor]

Why DTM? You say he started the conversation, but you and I are propagating it. If this conversation is so bad, why aren't you trying to stop it? You know what they say, 'if you're not part of the solution...'

[Nikanor]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

This is giving me a really bad vibe from both you and Scott now, sounds as

if you two are werewolves

and you'd want to make sure that Hohum (if he's the seer) doesn't speak to try and clear himself.

Unvote

Vote: Saberwolf

Why can we only be werewolves? Since you are mafia and know your other members? Mafia-slip perhaps?

The seer doesn't investigate for mafia, only werewolves. So mafia would have a lot more reason to fear the seer than a werewolf would.

Also, to confirm...

If someone claims seer and isn't the seer, the real seer should not counterclaim! The fake seer will get killed at night.

Why are you answering for Toro?

[Nikanor]

@peace: What do you think of the hohum wagon?

[Nikanor]

@Mod: A prod on hohum, please?

[Nikanor]

nik: something more than one liners please?

I'm writing a post for another game. But if it'll make you happy, I'll post something longish now, while you're online and waiting.
The hohum wagon is ridiculous. I'd say there are probably 2-3 scum on it right now.
Scott's reasoning for voting hohum is dubious. He says he'd rather wait for a replacement than lynch hohum, so why does his vote stay on hohum?
Other than that, I'm waiting for a response to my question for peacesells, which he so expertly avoided today.

[Nikanor]

Is there an actual reason why you don't like the hohum wagon?

Because Lynch all Lurkers is stupid.

[Nikanor]

@DTM: Answer your own question, please.

[Nikanor]

Simulposted. :S

[Nikanor]

But the question is this, DTM: Given the small amount of information a hohum lynch will provide, do you think he is the best lynch for today? If not, then whom?

[Nikanor]

@Shotty: If you think peacesells is scummy, why aren't you pushing for his lynch instead of hohum's?

[Nikanor]

Also hohum was caught lying, you don't think that is scummy?

Lynch all Liars is stupid as well. It is sometimes pro-town to lie. I probably lie more as town than I do as scum, simply because it is occasionally pro-town to do so.
Take now, for instance. I haven't looked into it myself, but I'll assume you're all telling the truth when you say that hohum has been making large posts in other games. Would it have been beneficial to the town for townhohum to tell the truth that he's been lurking? No. I've gone down that road myself as town, thinking that honesty is the correct path, and admitting to lurking. It distracted the town, and eventually contributed to my mislynch in lylo.
Another example from the same game: I was doctor, and waited to counterclaim the scum who falseclaimed doc on day one. On day three lylo, I eventually claimed doctor and said I was roleblocked on night one. A little while later, the cop claimed, and he claimed to have investigated me on night one with an innocent, and was roleblocked on night two. While we were both telling the truth, I got lynched because the scenario we were in was 'too convenient'. The cop in that should have lied in that situation to make his claim more believable.
Basically, story-telling aside, these are my reasons for thinking Lynch all Liars is stupid. Both town and scum have reason to lie. That's why lying is considered a nulltell in my books, and not the humongous scumtell some of you are trying to make it out to be.

However, advocating against a hohum lynch= town points. Anyone else have thoughts on DTM?

No, advocating against hohum lynch while his vote is on hohum = scum points.
Preview edit: It looks like DTM has realised this, which I think might be why he has unvoted.

P.S. Wall of Text FTW.

[Nikanor]

The only way you can know this if you are scum with Peace and knows what he is thinking . This is impossible for you to do.

Why is it impossible?

[Nikanor]

I was probably unclear when "I said it was impossible for you to do", it should be read "it's impossible as a townie for you to do". As scum it's very possible to know.

IGMEOY, DTM.

[Nikanor]

To which comment are you referring, DTM? I'd like to know what I 'side stepped.'
Also, peacesells has neglected to answer my question for him twice; I'm thinking a vote might get him motivated.

Unvote. Vote: peacesells.

[Nikanor]

You just gave scum "the anti town argument" to vote against you if you were townie.

Two days self implosion. :< If you are going to hang this in the background then scum hunting can't take place. It's a giant elephant in the room and we need to deal with this now.
Unvote
Vote: Sabrewolf
Scum hunt now and I'll unvote.

Lawl. If saberwolf flips town, I'm looking at DTM tomorrow. If saberwolf flips scum, I'm definitely looking at peacesells tomorrow.
I'm not buying the AtE from saberwolf. Before I vote, I'd like to hear peacesells's opinion on the matter.
@peacesells: If you ignore this question of mine, I'm going to tear you apart tomorrow, regardless of saber's flip. What do you think of saber's self-vote?

Magic 8-Ball said "what?"

Please input opinion. What do you think of saberwolf's self-vote?

[Nikanor]

You just gave scum "the anti town argument" to vote against you if you were townie.

Two days self implosion. :< If you are going to hang this in the background then scum hunting can't take place. It's a giant elephant in the room and we need to deal with this now.
Unvote
Vote: Sabrewolf
Scum hunt now and I'll unvote.

Lawl. If saberwolf flips town, I'm looking at DTM tomorrow. If saberwolf flips scum, I'm definitely looking at peacesells tomorrow.
I'm not buying the AtE from saberwolf. Before I vote, I'd like to hear peacesells's opinion on the matter.
@peacesells: If you ignore this question of mine, I'm going to tear you apart tomorrow, regardless of saber's flip. What do you think of saber's self-vote?

Magic 8-Ball said "what?"

Please input opinion. What do you think of saberwolf's self-vote?

Exactly what I said as the 8-Ball, "WHAT?"

Seriously.

So you're confused?
Do you think his self-vote is pro-town, anti-town, or null?
In your eyes, does saber's self-vote make him look more like scum, more like town, or null?

[Nikanor]

The funny part is, once again, I never make it past day one...and once again, I flip townie...

I've fallen for that way too many times for me to buy that.

[Nikanor]

For the record,

I still think he's anti-town

. This is the biggest AtE yet and he overreacted tremendously just for being put at L-4. Regardless I agree with DT that if we don't lynch SW today, he's a gigantic distraction. As I said, if you are town, this move is so awful.

You think he's anti-town, but do you think that makes him scummy?

[Nikanor]

We've still got a day left.
And I just realised that peacesells isn't getting back until after the deadline, so it's kind of pointless to wait for him.

Unvote. Vote: saberwolf.

L-1, folks.

@Nik
I was a heavy defender of Sabre early game, why am I particularly scummy if Sabre flips town. Shouldn't it be the other way around or are you discounting my earlier posts.

Nope, I'm not discounting anything. Although by the way you say that, it makes you sound like you want me to do just that.
But to be clear, the reason why IGMEOY on day two is because you said that scum can vote saberwolf under the 'anti-town' guise. Then, you vote saberwolf in your next post because he was being anti-town.
But in any case, IGMEOY regardless of saber's alignment.

[Nikanor]

It looks like you are twisting the scenario around when you outlined: DTM vs Peace.

To clarify:
If saber flips town, I'll be looking at DTM first.
If saber flips werewolf, I'll be looking at peacesells first, then DTM.
If saber flips mafia, I'll be looking at both peacesells and DTM.

he's taking the all concerned of my innocence approach

And what approach would that be?

[Nikanor]

Setting up chain lynches is scumzors, and also giving up this sort of information helps scum more than it helps fellow towns.

I'm not setting up chainlynches at all. I merely say I would be looking at those people tomorrow. If someone ends up scummier than either of the two tomorrow, I'll be more than happy to lynch them. And if I thought it would help scum more than town by posting it, I wouldn't have posted it.
DTM: Probably not getting killed tonight. I've said on multiple occasions that I'm suspicious of him, so I don't see how saying it once more will affect anything.
peacesells: Definitely not getting killed tonight. Not after that bandwagon on him midday.
Note that both of these can change based on the werewolves' opinions on these people (given they aren't werewolves themselves). i.e. whether they think said people are mafia.

Continuing from Page 19

Why don't we wait a day and then we can put the pressure on Hohum?

Why did you want to wait?

What, you wouldn't want to give Hohum a chance to speak and defend himself? IGMEOY: Zazier

OMGUS here.

I was just confused on why he did it. I already thought Saber was anti-town/leaning anti-town throughout the game but this just sealed the deal for me.

But does anti-town = scummy?

And Zazie, use green for Nikanor. (Just kidding! You'll get modkilled if you do).

[Nikanor]

So you wouldn't just not wait for Hohum and just quick-lynch him? Okay Nik.

You were misrepresenting Zazie, and now you're misrepresenting me.

FoS: Toro.

[Nikanor]

cause I don't buy your concerned for townie ploy. I call BS.

Where is this 'concerned for townie ploy' about which you keep speaking?

[Nikanor]

To people who claim I'm misrepresenting them, do you see where I'm coming from though when I say that you might not want to here what Hohum would've said?

Not at all. If I thought it was a valid point, I wouldn't be calling you out for misrepresentation.

[Nikanor]

I think you're going to flip scum, saberwolf. That's why I'm voting you. I'm bringing up the 'if you're town' scenarios because I don't know what you're going to flip. Hell, I don't even know if I'm going to live through the night. But if I die tonight, I'll have at least left the town with my will to work off of for tomorrow.
Also, the whole 'LYNCH MEEEE' flipping to 'But I've been lynched as townie every game so far!' flipping back to 'LYNCH MEEEE' is fairly scummy; it looks like you're trying to make up your mind between using AtE and intimidation tactics.

[Nikanor]

DTM, how does

DTM:

Probably

not getting killed tonight. I've said on multiple occasions that I'm suspicious of him, so I don't see how saying it once more will affect anything.

translate into

@Nik
738: How can you

for sure

say that I'm not getting killed tonight?

?

[Nikanor]

You are speculating on future night kills. You can't in no way in a townie POV he will know what is advantageous to scum to night kill until the start of day 2 when we have some alignment flips.

Language fail.
In that quote I was explaining to ThAdmiral how my speculations about at whom I will be looking tomorrow would not help the scum aim their nightkill. I was explaining that no matter what I had said about either DTM or peacesells, they would most likely not be nightkilled anyway.

[Nikanor]

But in Hohum's case, he lied to try and get the attention away from him. And in this case, it's scummy. Do you agree? If not, why?

Since you say it like that, and not 'OMG HE IZ A LIER GAIZ LINCH HIMM NAOOO,' like all the other players at that time were doing, I'm inclined to agree that it is slightly scummy. But it is not worth lynching him over, in my opinion.

@Mod: Can you institute a prod limit, maybe? Just so that we can get hohum replaced if he just decides to post every time he's prodded. :/

[Nikanor]

I have no idea why Zazie was killed, but speculating on the nightkill is probably not a good idea.
ThAdmiral, what happened to your suspicion of Scott from yesterday? Are you still suspicious of him?

[Nikanor]

nik: Late D1, we had a discussion how you didn't like the hohum wagon and through lynch all lurkers was stupid.

Is there an actual reason why you don't like the hohum wagon?

Because Lynch all Lurkers is stupid.

Going back through the thread I found this.

This game is turning into newb central. -_-;
FoS: Everyone who is lurking
Lurking is more of a scumtell in this game. Mafia-tell, specifically. If the mafia can lay low enough to not get lynched or nk'd by the werewolves, they win automatically after three days of continual lynched/nk'd townies. I tell this to the werewolves as well. It's in both the town's and werewolves' best interest for nk's to be directed at mafia. Aim for the lurkers, and you will be more likely to hit mafia, werewolves.

Why the contradiction?

Actually, my main intention with that post was to get some of the lurkers to speak up, as well as to direct the wolves to kill off some of the more anti-town members of our town.
The first part worked; we started hearing from Cain and lumi at least because of that. (Would have to reread to see if anyone else started speaking up because of that. Also, correlation does not imply causation, so I'd be careful about trying to use the 'he started talking after Nik said lurking was a scumtell!' argument).

[Nikanor]

So today you would still rather lynch someone more active than hohum?

If possible, I'd like for hohum to show up and start playing the game. If that's not possible, I'd like for a replacement. If that isn't possible, then I might go for a hohum deadline lynch if we can't find anyone better to lynch.

[Nikanor]

Considering Hohum didn't get lynched that means at least one faction wasn't pushing him. It would've been an easy kill of a townie, so someone(s) with role knowledge didn't want him dead.

I think your logic is flawed here, Shotty. It would be pretty easy for scum to blend in with the town by bussing their partner under Lynch all Liars/Lurkers if they thought he was going to be lynched. In that case, if he does flip scum, I'd look at the players who voted hohum without much reasoning. i.e. Toro and Scott.
Also, why did you assume it would be an easy kill of a 'townie,' specifically?

I need to look into DTM's iso for interactions with Zazie and saber; I might be able to find something there. Right now, I think that answering Zazie's questions after he died was decidedly pro-town (unless he thought he couldn't get away with not answering them, which I doubt), but I want to look into his reasoning behind defending saber.

[Nikanor]

Why bus when Saber gave them an easy lynch? There aren't any PRs besides seer and he wouldnt've dropped tells on D1 so I just used townie.

Bussing probably wouldn't be the best term. Distancing would be a better term. If hohum had a smart team, his partner(s) would keep their vote on hohum throughout day one, then, when saber flipped town, would bus hohum into oblivion on subsequent days, in an attempt to look very town on subsequent days.

[Nikanor]

So today you would still rather lynch someone more active than hohum?

If possible, I'd like for hohum to show up and start playing the game. If that's not possible, I'd like for a replacement. If that isn't possible, then I might go for a hohum deadline lynch if we can't find anyone better to lynch.

so are you saying that hohum's scummy behavior of day 1 should be ignored because he's lurking? Because he's done plenty of stuff that I'd lynch active players for, and letting him be replaced is basically ignoring all of that.

No, I just don't believe in Lynch all Lurkers policy.
If hohum gets replaced, great. If hohum starts actively participating, that's even better. hohum's lying and whatnot aren't going to disappear. Unless you believe that any and all replacements earn themselves a free halo that clears themselves of all guilt, I don't see how waiting for a replacement is a bad idea.
On the other hand, if we lynch him today for lurking without even trying to get a replacement, we'll have very little information regarding inter-player reactions, reagardless of alignment.
What I'm trying to say in that post is that we need either hohum ITT, or a hohum replacement.

@Mod:Prod hohum, please?

[Nikanor]

Yes, hohum needs to grow a larynx.

[Nikanor]

Can we get a votecount please fuzzy?

[Nikanor]

The only claim he can make is VT which is a pointless one.

How do you know he isn't Seer?

[Nikanor]

Hahaha, I'm pretty sure Scott is mafia.
@Scott: Shotty's unvote of hohum is not scummy. If Shotty had not unvoted, hohum would most likely have self-hammered then and there, which would have been much more beneficial for scum than for town.
I agree with Cow that lynching our mafia suspects is the right way to go for now. We still have a seer that can out the last wolf, remember.
Also, now that we are down to one wolf, the seer should claim as soon as he gets a guilty. That way we can kill the last wolf as well as have a confirmed townie that cannot be killed.

[Nikanor]

Oh, and

Vote: Scott Brosius

, of course.

[Nikanor]

Just curious what your case on me is, besides laughing and determining that I'm mafia isn't helpful. Whatever happened to "if SW flips town, I'm looking at DT tomorrow". That never happened.

Nice attempted deflection onto DTM.
Right now, I'm thinking DTM is town.

[Nikanor]

If we mislynch and the werewolf kills off a town member, mafia wins right? Just seeing if you know this.

No, since mafia can't kill, we still have a chance in a 2v3v1 game. So long as we commit to a no-lynch (the wolf would have to agree with us here, since it is his best chance of staying alive), if the wolf kills mafia, it'll be 2v2v1, then if we lynch mafia and the wolf kills mafia, it's down to 2v1. After that, we lynch the wolf, and town wins.
It's a long shot, but the possibility is there.

[Nikanor]

True but why does the Wolf want to help us win again?

The wolf will help us because if mafia control half the town, the only ones getting lynched would be townies or the wolf. As soon as mafia gain control over a majority of the town, they win by quicklynching. So really, it should be in the wolf's best interest to help us out in that situation.

[Nikanor]

Well, I won't stop the wolf from claiming now if he wants to...

[Nikanor]

God I'm feeling the pressure.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Nikanor]

I've just had a revelation.

Unvote.

[Nikanor]

Go on...

No.

[Nikanor]

Go on...

No.

Any why not? If you have something to share with us, go ahead and share it.

No.

[Nikanor]

Bait wins. A townie wouldn't push me on this.

Vote: Toro.

[Nikanor]

Bait wins. A townie wouldn't push me on this.

Vote: Toro.

what makes you say that?

Because I've done exactly the same thing as scum.
Toro is newbscum trying to look townie by pushing someone on a seemingly anti-town action.

[Nikanor]

Are you hiding something Nik?

Yes. Do you think it's scummy to not tell every one every thing every time?

[Nikanor]

But it'd sure as hell be beneficial for us to hear what Nik has to say and then possibly act on his theory.

No it wouldn't.

In my experience, scum don't announce they have an idea, plan, revelation whatever and then hide it. They just hide it and don't bring it up at all.

This is correct.
It IS scummy to push a person on something he clearly doesn't wish to share, however. Voting that person in an attempt to gain townie points is classic newbscum behaviour, imo.
Some input from other people on this matter would be nice.

[Nikanor]

It's not like you have information to share to the town, you just baited someone to attack you for being anti-town when you potentially have insight. This just reads as null tells on both counts, and just plain meh.

I would have revealed my revelation if I thought it would help us catch scum.
Also, if I am a seer with a guilty result, I would have come out at the beginning of the day with my result.
If I am a seer with an innocent result, I would not have said anything, since I can still get innocents on mafia.
My revelation has nothing to do with investigative results.

[Nikanor]

DTM, the difference is that Toro was fighting his lynch for days before finally giving up and self-voting in that game. This feels more like a scum intimidation tactic to me.

[Nikanor]

Scum intimidation tactic?

As in, 'Back off, or I'll kill myself!' 'You'll be sorry when I flip town!' And the like.

[Nikanor]

Yeah, that pretty much encapsulates Toro's play so far, Shotty.
What I really want to hear is peacesells's thoughts on this here Toro wagon. So far we've got, 'One of ThAdmiral or Nik is scum,' with no mention at all of Toro.

[Nikanor]

Well, I was asked about the people who've voted for Toro. I was not asked about Toro himself.

You're kidding, right? From an experienced mafia player like yourself, I believe we can expect more than this from you.

And yes, Toro is at L-1 now.

[Nikanor]

Anyone getting a vibe that peacesells is bussing here? His last few posts were pretty much fence-sitting and even this post reeks of it a little, saying Toro could be unsure townie.

I am getting this feeling as well. However, I do think that we should get Toro in the noose first. That's not to say that I want to end the day now, though.

I answered they way I did because you were attempting to lead others to believe I was skirting a question, and I was not.

And you are misrepresenting me. That was not my intention, I can assure you.
The point is that failing to talk about something is just as scummy as avoiding a question, especially for an experienced player such as yourself.
You acted like the Toro wagon was non-existent, and avoided commenting on Toro. That is what I was saying in that post.

[Nikanor]

My experience is elsewhere and the way I play there completely rubs people the wrong way here. So your references to experience are hogwash and if you insist on using that statement then please link where it is pertinant.

All I learnt about your past experience from your first game is that a) You like to hammer before deadline, and b) You like to no-lynch if you don't know who the scum is, both of which rub people the wrong way on this site because it is against site meta to do those things. This has NOTHING to do with the debate at hand! If I'm missing something I should be seeing in your first game on this site, by all means, point it out. However, I assume that, from your experience, we should be able to expect more than just, 'You didn't ask me about that, so you shouldn't expect me to comment about it.'

Now here is where Nik basically implies I wasn't answering a question.

I specifically said, 'with no mention at all of Toro.' NOWHERE in that statement did I accuse you of avoiding ANY questions.

Does he even consider I'm not ready to address Toro yet?

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have waited until you had your fake suspicions of Toro ready.
And I was seriously considering an off-handed comment about your maturity level, but I decided you probably wouldn't be able to handle it.

He played his Toro "revelation" gambit and now he is trying another one on me.

Found a scumslip. Either he a) thinks I'm town who has caught scum, or b) thinks Toro is town and that I'm scum.
Now, if a) is the case, why is he voting me? If b) is the case, why had he voted Toro?
I think peacesells has made it abundantly clear that he is mafia with Toro.

[Nikanor]

just because you put a smiley behind it and doesn't mean it was not an insult.

I don't think that thus type of play is going to get you the result you expect. Please refrain from personal insults in the future.

Ignoring the insult (which was clearly in poor form), do you have anything to say to my 990?

[Nikanor]

How about two more choices.

C. Thinks your town and your gambit resulted in a null tell.


Or

d. Thinks you are scum that will try gambits to attempt to make others look scummy.

So, which is it?

I'm not joking when I say that 990-992 was the biggest f**king De Ja Vu I've ever had.

Yeah? Why's that?

[Nikanor]

Toro, what do you think of peacesells at this moment?

[Nikanor]

Even with your "gambit" the 912,913,914 reads as someone obvious to mafia role.

Obvious, or oblivious? I don't see how 'obvious' works at all, so I'm going to assume you meant 'oblivious.' Correct me if I'm wrong.

It might be bias based on Internal Mafia though.

The difference between the Toro in that game and the Toro in this game is that Toro didn't even really put up a fight in this game.
Basically, the way the tell works is that the earlier a person gives up, the scummier they are. It's really only a town tell if the person has been on death row for nearly the entire day.

[Nikanor]

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon

Deflection away from a wagon I started?

[Nikanor]

So DTM, what is your final opinion of Toro based on your analysis? I see a bunch of points for and against him, but we still don't have your opinion.

[Nikanor]

Why are you rushing this step for my answer Nik?

Oh, I missed where you had said you were writing more. I tend to skim your posts, as I will hang myself if I dwell on your posts for too long. Oh, English language, how DTM butchers you!

[Nikanor]

@Kill
Then why, knowing that you didn't answer question, still didn't give me an answer to my question. Yes your bussing theory is new and might be something to talk about, but the above issue still stands.

Unlike some people *ahem*saberwolf*ahem*, Kill-kill can't talk once he's dead.

[Nikanor]

Still haven't seen any reasons not to lynch Toro, chiming in to let you know I'm here.

This.

[Nikanor]

Why is the Cow lurking through this game?

[Nikanor]

I have some thoughts on this, but I'd rather not deflect off of Toro right now.

Go ahead. If you think Cow is mafia, it's something to keep in mind for after we lynch Toro. If you think Cow is werewolf, we have no interest in lynching him today, so it's impossible to deflect off of Toro with those thoughts.

[Nikanor]

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

Yes, Cow, we know that peacesells is most likely mafia with Toro. This quote in particular is true of both peacesells and Toro.
I don't care which of Toro or peacesells we lynch today, but your vote will probably be better spent hammering Toro. I don't see any point in continuing this day, unless you come up with some miraculous excuse for Toro (better than 'I think Toro is VI'). By all means, feel free to try to convince me that a peacesells lynch is better, but I doubt you'll be able to stop a Toro lynch from happening today.

[Nikanor]

Last words?

Scumlist, and such.

[Nikanor]

Nik You aren't as subtle as you think you are in leading town around.

peacesells, you aren't as subtle as you think you are when it comes to misrepresentation and defending your scumbuddies.

[Nikanor]

It's like it's too easy, which I don't like at all with 4 scum still out there.

That is true. Keep in mind that some of the scum are working against each other, however, which makes things somewhat easier for us.

[Nikanor]

Last Words? I'm laughing atm.

Stop trying to play the VI card, please. Your lack of contribution and self-defence only makes me more convinced of your alignment.

[Nikanor]

(he goes on to explain his reasoning. You can ISO him for it.)

I like how you don't address my reasoning. Do you think it is unimportant for why I think lurking is a nulltell?

Starts setting up reasons why certain people won't be night killed. This is important cause later he discourage speculation on why someone was NK'd.

Speculating on past nightkills leads to WIFOM. There is no way we can correctly deduce the reasons for why a certain person was killed without some level of psychoanalysis.
Speculating on future nightkills, however, does not lead to WIFOM, because I am simply stating opinion.

Not liking his inactive partner?

Stop with the bullshit attacks, please.

Here he states why we should keep the werewolf alive if outed by the seer. Possibly planting the idea early incase it's needed later.

Keeping the werewolf alive is beneficial for town. I thought we had discussed this and come to a general consensus that this was the case. Am I wrong?

[Nikanor]

peacesells, if you think I am more likely to be a werewolf, why is your vote still on me?
In your opinion, who is most likely to be mafia?

[Nikanor]

Nik..why is it you are the only player allowed to point out cases on others? Primadonna much?

Again..you like to insult and wink. Call something bullshit and say please. You stink like a used carsalesman. Arrogant to boot.

No, I called one attack of yours bullshit, because it was bullshit. Some of your other points were legitimate (if wrong), so I didn't call them bullshit. How do you not see the difference?

[Nikanor]

peacesells, you are being ridiculous.
You say that Scott is most likely to be mafia because of his early-game selective scumhunting, correct? Do you have any other reason to suspect Scott? If so, I'd like to see it.

[Nikanor]

I'm pretty sure this means that Cow is mafia. Cow defended Toro with weak 'He's probably VI,' comments while simultaneously pushing for peacesells's lynch.

Vote: hasdgfas

.

[Nikanor]

I played in another game with Nik here where we had a very similar problem and he spammed the same sort of stuff on his scumbuddy because he was inactive, but never pushed for the lurker lynch

I never push for a lurker lynch as either alignment. The one time I've ever placed a vote that was meant to contribute to a lurker lynch was in my first game, and the lurker flipped town. Now I'm starting to re-evaluate my opinion on lurkers, and so far I'm leaning toward conditional scumtell. Read my town meta if you'd like, and you'll see this to be true.
Also, excuse me for wanting some form of activity from a playerslot. I think it would have been nice if hohum had had more interaction from the various players, perhaps dropping us some clues as to the identity of his partner. As it stands now, I think DTM is probably hohum's partner, but now is not the time to be looking for wolves. Right now we should be lynching mafia, i.e. Cow.

[Nikanor]

Why hasn't DTM posted anything? He's been online since the topic opened.

[Nikanor]

I don't know what to think about this self-vote.

DTM self-votes a lot. I wouldn't think anything of it.

[Nikanor]

Do you think hohum's comments about DTM being "obvscum" was an attempt to clear him or just null? What makes you think DTM is wolf?

I think that hohum's attack of DTM right after night is obvdistancing. Here's a sample of the conversation they probably had during that night:
hohum: I'm probably going to be lynched today. I'll go after you hard to make you look less wolfy.
DTM: K, I'll bus you.
hohum: K.

[Nikanor]

Day 3 I did say why I was voting peacesells over Toro.

vote: peacesells

A lot of this is gut, but I've had a bad feeling from pretty much the very beginning, based on the way the game has gone. He's seemed a bit too jumpy.

Do you mean that? And actually, you never did say why you were voting peacesells over Toro. You explained why you were voting peacesells (I'm not trying to encapsulate your entire reasoning for voting peacesells within your quote here, because peacesells did do scummy things after your vote that you commented on), but the farthest you went to address the points against Toro was, 'I think he's VI.' You never said why you were voting peacesells over Toro, only why you were voting peacesells. That is scummy. You were pushing a bandwagon on a confirmed townie while avoiding comment on the opposing wagon, which is now confirmed scum.
Cow's desperation to get peacesells in the noose as opposed to Toro reaches a peak when he says this:

EDIT: and now I see peace is, by his own admission, werewolf-hunting, which is blatant selective scumhunting. Lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch lynch.

That is a gross overreaction. Other people have scumhunted selectively on different occassions, and yet only this time does Cow react like this. Just looking at the vote count, I see that Toro was at L-1 at that time. I don't think this is a coincidence. It looks more like Cow is trying to get the non-mafia wagon going before Toro is lynched.

[Nikanor]

1. There is a small issue with your obv. distancing theory. Your idea is extremely sub optimal play considering it was day 2 when Hohum was lynched. With a seer running around it becomes a gamble at that point.

What? If people see you as less likely to be a wolf, the seer will be less likely to inspect you. How does that become a gamble?

@Shotty: Please do some actual scumhunting. Thanks.

[Nikanor]

Good defense, attack the player not the argument huh?

That's not what I'm doing at all, Shotty. You saying that 'cross-voting rocks' isn't helping. You're using the case of a guy who died last night and is now confirmed townie to support your vote on me. That isn't scumhunting. Townies can often be wrong. Your personal justification was a meta attack that doesn't even make sense. I don't remember 'spamming the same sort of stuff on my scumbuddy,' so if you'll point out those posts for me, I'd be much obliged.

[Nikanor]

After that Hohum was dead and the first many of your ISO posts were when Hohum was still active. Everyone of those posts your either defending Hohum or calling for prods or activity from him, pretty damning, your obliged btw.

Sorry, I meant the game you used as meta. It's pretty clear that I was defending hohum ITT.

[Nikanor]

I'm too lazy to look through 26 pages to find (or possibly miss) something. Give me iso numbers. It's your evidence, after all.

[Nikanor]

That's weak, Shotty. For those of you who care, here are quotes from the iso posts Shotty is talking about:

Mod: Can we get a replacement on murdock_? He hasn't posted in 13 days.

Thirteen days. I'm asking for a replacement on someone after thirteen days of nonposting, and Shotty is trying to use it to support his 'scumtell'.

We really need to hear more from shotty.
We really, really need to hear SOMETHING from Hayker.

Hayker replaced murdock_ on the 15th of July, and that post I made was on the 19th. Before I made that post, Hayker had basically only come in to say that his dog died, so he wasn't going to be able to post often. Hayker posted once more on the 23rd before being replaced by Locke.

@Mod: Prod Hayker please. It's been five days today since his last post.

That was on the 28th. Hayker ended up being replaced after he didn't pick up his prod.

Day three cannot end without Locke posting something.

I assume this is the quote Shotty was referring to. I said this because we had nothing of content from that playerslot at all on day two or three.

All in all, the point Shotty is trying to make is ridiculous, because I would have done the same thing in that game were I a townie.
And to be honest, if I were werewolf, I wouldn't have killed peacesells. He was probably going to be lynched the next day anyway, and his death implicated me somewhat, which is probably what the real wolf was going for.

[Nikanor]

I'm the wolf. If you lynch me, town will have to lynch right twice to win. I'd rather see the town win than lose to the mafia.

Not true.
With six people alive, we can lynch you today to put ourselves in lylo tomorrow with two mafia. After that, we have an expendable mislynch, thanks to the lack of nightkill.
If we mislynch today, we have to rely on your aim tonight to save us, which really doesn't make me feel too great considering I, a townie, am your largest suspect. Basically, from my point of view, we're already in lylo, since you'll kill me tonight anyway and give the mafia a majority. So really, we're not any worse off for lynching you.
That's not even taking into account the possibility of mafia fakeclaiming.

[Nikanor]

@DTM: True.

@Cow: Can we trust you to make town-directed kills? You've lost now, anyway. The least you can do is help us win.

@Seer: I have a feeling I know who you are, but you should claim now. Your use is pretty much limited to confirmed townie at this point. You should still investigate Cow tonight to make sure you get a guilty on him, but other than that, your purpose has met its end.

Unvote.

[Nikanor]

See, here's the thing. The mafia make up 1/3 of the current town. If I go by town-directed kills, the mafia have a good chance of being a big influence in that. However, if there's someone that seems to be trusted near-unanimously by the town, I won't kill them. But "town-directed" is a bit of a misnomer, from what I've found, as scum have significant influence on the kill in that case.

That's also true. We could put it to a vote, or get everyone to nominate their top two picks for a kill, but I suppose that wouldn't help much, either. What do you think would be the best, Cow? The seer should weigh in on this as well, seeing as how he can act as confirmed townie now.

[Nikanor]

I AM SEER

Yup, that's what my 'revelation' was about yesterday, hehe.

Nikanor--- You said that DTM was obvdistancing from Hohum implicating him as a wolf. Now that we know that DTM is not a wolf do you think he is more likely town or scum?

I'm not sure. Let me read Toro's play and I'll get back to you.

[Nikanor]

Okay, so everyone should say their favourite kills for tonight, ordered from most to least favourite.
Don't forget the we have a lynch today as well.

My list is ThAdmiral, Shotty, DTM.
ThAdmiral's vote on Toro seems cheap and bandwagonny. I don't like it.
Shotty is neutral to me. He's done some scummy things, but he's also done some towny things. I can see him as ThAdmiral's partner.
I get town reads from DTM.

[Nikanor]

The only reason I thought DTM was werewolf was his interactions with hohum D2. Since those have been proven to be most likely false, I now think DTM is town.

[Nikanor]

I'll reveal my opinions after others, to avoid buddying and people hopping on my thoughts in an attempt to look town.

Wouldn't that be a good thing? The more scumtells, the better.

[Nikanor]

I'm bored.
Where's Shotty?

[Nikanor]

Vote: ThAdmiral.

[Nikanor]

I was really surprised that he was accused of being mafia.

That was me who said that, remember? I was pretty sure Cow was wolf, but it was easier to push a lynch on him by calling him mafia, hehe.