Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[le Chat]

Nothing wrong with dice starts at all. Ive used them in different games and gotten friendly responses, nonchalant responses, and negative responses though. They are great for discussion, though!

I'm slightly tispy so I'll post more later.

Is this game really considered a night start, Cyberbob? Nobody was able to make

night actions

. I know that scum (and possibly closed masonries!) were able to talk with themselves so I guess they can determine who to vote for if they cared enough but I don't know if I would call it a night start. Eh, terminology, its never global until its forced down all our throats.

vote: mathcam

You never know if the extra pressure is going to make or break a late confirmation. Does anyone think there is anything special about the fact that mathcam did not confirm his role but the scum (and possible masonries I guess) were able to talk for 24 hours? The AIM meta-game mafia player in me wants to think that he was not a talker because people were given the chance to talk without him but the Forum Mafia-goer in me wants to slap the shit out of myself for even mentioning that sort of metagame. So what does everyone else think?

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[le Chat]

Happy birthday, Hoopla. Unless that's not your real birthday. Whatever, happy birthday anyways! :D

Also, don't feel bad about the game ending up the way it ended up, Hoopla or Kublai Khan. Of course I'm willing to play the re-roll. So

/in again :)

Hey le Chat, are you an alt? Or do you just play elsewhere?

Both, actually! I play a lot elsewhere (Im the List Mod for a 30+ish person Mafia community) but I also have an account here that has a lot more posts than 3.

-Because that's how I roll.

Didn't notice that last night. Roll, dice. Hahaha.

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[le Chat]

le Chat? I take it Peabody was, but he didn't post.

Agh, how dare you! How absurd! Accusations flying!

No I wasn't :3

Mod's Note: This post is non-cannon and therefore not part of the game

[le Chat]

Can we all vote to embrace Communism & Joseph Stalin? Then we all win with none of that unsightly bloodshed.

I don't know about

you

but I love America and by God I'm going to lynch all the Commie bastards.

It was a completely random early bandwagon vote. I doubt anyone on it has any real intention of getting here lynched yet, so I don't see anything wrong or scummy about it.

All 5 of you have bandwagoned Hoopla without any real intention of getting her lynched yet? I don't understand.

[le Chat]

Hoopla, it cannot be your birthday every day.

[le Chat]

no CoCo, even I understood the 'early reports' to be a phrase of speech and not a claim to have game information.

i think Harumafuji's posts make everything interesting. :]

Can we all vote to embrace Communism & Joseph Stalin? Then we all win with none of that unsightly bloodshed.

I don't know about

you

but I love America and by God I'm going to lynch all the Commie bastards.

It was a completely random early bandwagon vote. I doubt anyone on it has any real intention of getting here lynched yet, so I don't see anything wrong or scummy about it.

All 5 of you have bandwagoned Hoopla without any real intention of getting her lynched yet? I don't understand.

What do you not understand about it? Every time you bandwagon, do you always have the intention of pushing it to a lynch?

No, what I should have emphasized was the "All 5 of you" because I found it odd that you could speak for the alignment of everyone on the wagon. Sorry for seemingly digging that back up but I hadn't had a chance to respond even though things have developed after it.

I do not yet know what to think about Vaya v CoCo. I can absolutely understand now that the bandwagon didn't really threaten Hoopla (at first I saw 5 votes and immediately kneejerked "scum is on there!") once I think that if people would have made the last two votes they would have been extremely suspect so i bet nobody would hammer and that, yes, the wagon did bring about a lot of discussion more effectively than I had expected. However, CoCo is pushing very hard against Vaya and does not seem to come to the same understanding as I am. Right now though I feel like choosing between the two is just a false dilemma.

Hoopla why is it still your birthday this is ridiculous.

[le Chat]

Charter, why are you getting a town reading on Hoopla and Vaya? Can you please point out specific posts that make you come to this conclusion?

Hoopla's reaction to the wagon on her wasn't scummy, so I'm leaning town on her. Pretty much every post of Vaya's I've agreed with, so town there as well.

what would a scummy reaction from hoopla @ her 5man wagon be?

pertaining to Peabody, I understand that pb was late with the RVS vote and could have simply remarked on the game's goings-on instead but i dont see how that is a scumtell.

[le Chat]

i think that its hard to feel comfortable with a read on coco because i feel like his aggression is naturally matched with his inability to recognize the fact that 'early reports' was just a phrase, he bit very hard on one piece of discussion and didnt let go for a very long time, and he felt the need to spend his time making a giant writeup that doesnt seem to prove any point. i feel like it is just who he is.

i dont find peabody's first post of a late rvs suspicious but i understand that that isnt the only thing pb has done. peabody your point in post 145 about mafia knowing if the wagon is full of townies is similar to what i said earlier towards vaya.

hoopla seriously how old are you. also hoopla do you expect as much from me as you do talitha?

Harumafuji you seriously just said "We are all benefiting from the UN Charter." I look forward to your posts.

[le Chat]

hoopla seriously how old are you. also hoopla do you expect as much from me as you do talitha?

I'm probably older than the average age of users here, although I suspect that question was rhetorical.

Also, tell me your alt account here.

rhetorical questions end in periods! :D and yes it was rhetorical. you must be over 300 years old if you have had a birthday every day since joining the site!

also, stop having birthdays every day and i'll tell you my alt. hopefully you recognize that le Chat is a persona individual of my main like hoopa is a persona who has birthdays every day. mew mew mew.

i dont find Harumafuji's account-imposed posting restriction to be scummy. i assume it was something he decided he would do before he received his role and therefore is just a Harumafuji-tell not a scum-tell. It seems like an easy lynch to push for, though. hmm!

[le Chat]

i'm very sorry ive been away. i'll catch up and post today after my classes!

[le Chat]

If I contradict myself in this post, it is because I’m forming opinions as I catch up and write it. Hopefully if it seems like I contradicted myself between the beginning and the end, it is easy to see why as more things happened.

I would like le Chat to give an opinion on something, anything. Best would be who you are most suspicious of and why. Another question you could answer is why haven't you voted yet this game?

I will easily acknowledge that I am more hesitant to vote than most people. I’ll also acknowledge that its easier for me to give opinions on what I don’t find scummy than what I find scummy… I guess that’s your point when you ask whom I’m most suspicious of and why I haven’t voted. It does make me feel bad when Cyberbob tags onto you saying that I haven’t said anything of value.

I disagree with a lot of what CoCo says. I stated before that I don’t know if it is just due to his personality or a mafia role he got.

Post 2: Blatant fence straddling. I don't expect you to agree with me, but you must have other thoughts about the situation. Who in that tug-of-war looks the scummiest?

I disagree with this; I understand Cyberbob’s position about the argument’s worth and how he agrees with neither side. CoCo does not and sees it as blatant fence straddling.

Per charter 193 @ Cyberbob and Talitha,

In other news I'm also interested in mathcam.. I think he could easily be scum.

Can you elaborate? I haven't really been getting any sort of a read off of him.

I had the same feeling as Talitha. You answered the question yourself. He's just parroting, buddying, and blending in. I particularly don't like his unvote, but then leaving it at that. He doesn't start any other lines of questioning or look at someone else.

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

I feel very similar about mathcam but I don’t think it makes him scummy, maybe because I find this attitude towards mathcam to be kinda similar to the attitude Cyberbob seemed to have off of you about me that I haven’t done “anything of value.”

I feel like a vote on Haru, or discussion that he is being anti-town because of the way he posts, is opportunistic (in the bad way, Vaya). I agree with Talitha that Hoopla seemed suspicious for that (I’m not sure if that is what Talitha meant because she was kind of vague, saying it was “interesting,” but that is my reason whether or not its hers). CoCo also stated that he thinks Haru deserves attention before the day is over, and I only assume it is because of the way he posts. I’ll again hold that I don’t find him to be likely scum just because of the way he decided to post even before the game started (an educated and likely correct guess based on his entire account’s persona).

@Coco: Just like Cyberbob, I hate the defense that you are keeping motivations secret or “setting traps” for scum that are not seen in the things you say or the questions you ask. Obviously there can be more than one reason for something but Cyberbob said it very well when he said you can “ret-con” previous motivations by saying you were doing something deeper/different.

Post 210 Talitha confirms that she finds Hoopla suspicious for the same reasons I found myself disagreeing with Hoopla’s comments about Haru’s alignment based on how he talks.

And I've decided that I do in fact find Hoopla suspicious. She already acknowledged that Haru's garbled-ness very likely has nothing to do with his alignment and is IMO incorrect, or at the very least exaggerating when saying that "Haru's garbled nothing-posts only serve to provide murkier waters for scum to lurk in".

I'm not suggesting Haru is scum by my quote - I'm saying that whoever the scum is in this game only serve to prosper by having one player slot not contributing analysis. Then,

if

he is indeed scum, it is difficult for the town to spot scum-tells through his act.

Can you explain why you think my quote is incorrect?

I think Haru can still contribute his opinions by using translation party. I don’t think he’s totally useless or unable to help at all, which is what you seem to imply.

Hooplh brings an interesting point to the table regarding Haru.

I disagree.

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

CoCo, this is almost everyone in the game chiming in on the same topic -- you either inadvertently or consciously misinterpret just about every argument made in this game. Further, when people call you out on it, you tend to ignore their claims. You also ignored direct attacks against you for quite some time. If these are indeed inadvertent, I suggest you start taking your time reading other people's arguments. But since I'm beginning to suspect not-so-inadvertent...

I'm going to

Vote: CoCo

, for two reasons. First is the original attack -- while I think he has some "plausible deniability" in the sense that he can push off inconsistencies onto the V/LA, it's hardly airtight. Even if he decided that Vaya was the right target, why not even

mention

SensFan? The second is the argument in the previous paragraph -- delaying responding to attacks gives him time to read how other people respond to them before providing a defense, not to mention the possibility that people would forget about it. Contributing to this "hoping people forget about it" is his proclivity for strongly shifting focus on some very bizarre topics -- the "early reports" comes to mind, as does his insistence that there was no content in the post of charter that I quoted and agreed with (and a pretty implausible interpretation of what I was agreeing with).

The main reservation I have with my vote is that I would typically assign CoCo's fervor in this game a slightly pro-town rating, but it's not enough to overcome the above points.

Cam

@Mathcam: I find that I disagree with a lot of what CoCo says, but I don’t think it is because he is scummy. I feel like it is due to who he is, how he approaches mafia arguments. You have noted that you would assign his fervor a pro-town rating. You’ve also noted that the above two reasons trump or overcome the general feeling you might have about him. I will agree that he ignored SensFan and went after Vaya, but I don’t think its because he’s scumpartners with SensFan and wanted to lynch Vaya as opposed to his scumbuddy or anything. I think it is just that he went after Vaya. I didn’t suspect that he is holding off on responses so that he can feel out the crowd. I have to think about that. I will also admit that some of what he says makes me think he doesn’t do well with colloquialisms (“early reports”) and he parses posts for what he can respond to and what he can’t. But I’ve played with people like that before who were town, a lot, its just what they do.

I feel like CoCo and Haru are the easy targets, both because of how they talk, but in different ways. CoCo is very aggressive and grasps onto unimportant things. Haru (we suspect) uses Translation Party for all of his posts. If these are both simply who they are (the former being literally who he is and how he approaches arguments, the latter being an internet persona), then it doesn’t really have anything at all to do with their alignment. I feel like they’re the easy lynches that mafia can autopilot onto. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Again we must rely on Charter's "Early Reports."

Well, now I’m sad because Mathcam just stated that you ignore points and wait to feel out the crowd on how you should respond, and in your response to his post containing two facts about your play that could get you lynched, you stalled by posting a one liner about a colloquialism. Mathcam is not relying on Charter’s “early reports”... Charter wasn’t even relying on “early reports” last time when he said early reports. Please comment on what Mathcam says in 215.

I agree with Talith again in 218. I think if Haru posted more (yes, coming from me, but it’s not hypocritical because I don’t restrict myself like Haru is restrict(-ing himself?)-ed by Translation Party talk) then his “lost in translation” thing wouldn’t be so much of an overt issue for you, Hoopla. Or anyone. You said its not an attack on him, but it is drawing suspicion towards him based on how he talks, yeah? CoCo agreed with you, saying Haru should be “addressed” (I think it was) before the Day is over, so obviously he’s accruing suspicion.

I don’t like Col.Cathart’s post 224.

I'm actually inclined to agree with Hoopla here. If there is one thing I really hate in Mafia, that's gonna be stupid misunderstandings. There's nothing worse than long discussion which turns out to be pointless, because someone just couldn't make his point clear enough. Needles to say, Haru's posts have potential to make lots and lots of them. True, so far he didn't say anything disastrous, because he's not contributing much... But isn't lurking and therefore scum tell? Speaking of which, where the hell is Haru?

Also, CoCo, I really think you should stop catching every word in people's post. You look like someone who always tries to find a secret bottom in every line. Sometimes there's just no secret bottom, really.

You basically took my idea that Haru and CoCo are easy targets because of how they talk and you pushed them both on that subject. You talk about “long discussion which turns out to be pointless” and refer to what

could be

. What about Cyberbob’s comment that the long discussion in the beginning, Vaya v. CoCo feat. opinions, was totally pointless and full of null-tells? Isn’t that the same thing, but its actually happened in this game? I don’t think he’s scummy lurking, especially because I don’t think the Day is coming to an end anytime soon, there’s no deadline, and he can come in soon and respond to what’s been said and ask people things himself (even if they have to think for a second before responding correctly). And then you chastise CoCo for parsing posts. I agree that he should probably ease up on it but I don’t think it’s telling of scum.

You then respond to charter in 227 saying your main suspect is Haru simply because of how he talks and his activity... that’s not a read on his role, it’s a read on his persona... it’s solved not by a lynch but by an activity prod.

Hey, anyone read iso-Mathcam yet? You should...

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by iso-Mathcam. If you’ll link me to it or tell me what it is I’ll gladly read it and respond to it in kind.

[le Chat]

I'm going to make a giant effort to be super active and talkative to make up for my basically V/LA without notice and the fact that I don't think (and other people might not think) I'm contributing as much.

@charter: Back to your questions. I disagree with mathcam about why we should lynch CoCo and think he is suspicious for it... I also think Col Cathart is being very narrow when he says his main suspects are Haru and CoCo. I think if I had a main suspect right now it would be Col Cathart. I still very much feel like I am feeling out everyone and forming opinions.

vote: Col Cathart

for now.

[le Chat]

I don't think mathcam is scummy enough to warrant a vote, but I do urge him to contribute to the conversation more, please.

I think mathcam has contributed a lot more than you have.

[le Chat]

le Chat - So you are basically saying that my playstyle is scummy. I like to see anything clear and tidy, so when someone is making a mess in the discussion , my eye goes naturally into their direction. Regardless of my role, it's not going to change, sorry.

No, I'm not saying your playstyle is scummy. Regardless of his alignment, I doubt that Haru would have changed the way he typed. Regardless of his alignment, I bet that CoCo would nitpick colloquialisms and argue certain things into the dirt. However, my accusation of you was that you were suspicious of these two for what I see to be the way they are and not their role. You counter saying I'm accusing you of just being yourself regardless of your

own

role, because you naturally don't find people who type like that / argue like that town. There's a difference... I view them as the 'easy targets', (not Haru anymore, he is now a fluent

englishman

Australian), you can be voted on for almost basically pet peeves and frustrating points but not scummy points... and it also makes it seem like you're spinning the reason why I don't think they're scum into a reason why I shouldn't think you're scum.

@Le Chat; First, nice post. I'll concede to being frustrated with CoCo's playstyle, and I'll even concede that it's at times difficult to distinguish that from genuine scumminess. But I don't think it's as easy to separate as you make it out to be. A person's playstyle is not one fixed entity with respect to which all of that player's actions should be normalized. Rather, a person's playstyle is dynamic, changing in regard to the specific game, his role in that game, how he is prodded in that game, etc. If a person's playstyle makes them more easy to identify as scum, that's valuable information for us. I don't know enough about CoCo to say for sure one way or another, but I

can

say that his actions in this game (ignoring arguments, cherry-picking ridiculous side topics) are not very pro-town. Finally, I'm not sure I buy the characterization of him as an easy target. You and others seem to be quite willing to discount any scumminess he exhibits in his arguments to a byproduct of his playstyle.

I understand that there is a balance to be held, or at least there is a threshold to be met, pertaining to when someone's playstyle can defend their actions. I guess I feel that he has not yet met that threshold. That may sound too swingy... but it's legit.

You have a point about how he can't both be an "easy target" and be dismissed as "who he is." That brings up a whole new level of counter-counter-logic like WIFOM that I have to take into account when thinking about him/his actions. But right now I don't think he's scummy.

I haven't been able to pay much attention to this game lately, but I have at least skimmed through it.

Unvote
Vote:Col.Cathart

I should be able to read through this game more thoroughly and post more this weekend.

You must be the world's best skim reader if you were able to not only come to the conclusion that Cathart was deserving of a vote, but also that your previous target was less so, in a single glance.

This... exactly this.

Onto le Chat now, for whom I only have one real point of note. On page 7 charter noted he had yet to vote (and didn't until page 10). Why did you vote in your first post in the original game before we restarted, and not this one? You were town in the previous game.

I guess this game started out differently. In fact, it did, this game started with a giant bandwagon that I was very apprehensive about. So I didn't vote.

---

@CoCo: I said I would read iso-mathcam and I will. I just haven't yet. I also feel like I should read iso-Peabody because I don't feel like I have an adequate grasp of his place in this game right now, and since he's a point of interest because a lot of people think he's scummy, I need to do that.

--

@SC: I look forward to your input on the game.

[le Chat]

I will easily acknowledge that I am more hesitant to vote than most people. I’ll also acknowledge that its easier for me to give opinions on what I don’t find scummy than what I find scummy… I guess that’s your point when you ask whom I’m most suspicious of and why I haven’t voted. It does make me feel bad when Cyberbob tags onto you saying that I haven’t said anything of value.

So does this mean that you only vote like once a day or what? Only when you're reasonable sure you're voting for scum? Just looking for some reason why you tend to be hesitant.

Umm I guess the difference comes not in actually voting in becoming comfortable with someone to vote for. I vote when I'm comfortable just like everyone else but I guess it takes me longer.

I started an iso-Charter and its more time consuming than i thought it would be. I promise to finish this later and come back and talk about it because at very first glance at this game with my mind's eye i dont find charter scummier than some people who have just not talked much read: haruSC, peabody, Vaya. maybe even Talitha, Hoopla as of late. vote is on col.Cathart because i have yet to decide how i currently feel about the way he responded to me. whether for good or for bad, I was completely taken aback by an unexpected "le chat you have disarmed me." @_@

[le Chat]

hmm no I will

unvote

for now

[le Chat]

@Peabody re 289: What made you choose Talitha to iso? And after your entire iso, you don't even have an opinion on her. Do you think that was a good use of your time? And who are you going to do next, if you continue?

@charter re 290: Col Cathart stated that he was in a process of being more active and not 'actively lurking' anymore. I think its acceptable for for pot to call the kettle black if the pot is getting a paintjob. Though I still think he's wrong and you aren't really lurking. Vaya, HaruSC, Talitha are lurking, SensFan was gone.

@charter re 304: I agree.

@charter re 328: I'm looking forward to mathcam's response to your first sentence demand for him to say what he's done. I thought he had an interesting spin on "why do you assume my soul-searching will necessarily come up pro-CoCo? Know something we don't?" but now I don't know.

I find Col.Cathart scummier than charter. I also think the "bandwagon" on Charter that people mention isn't really one: HaruSC's vote is on him but I doubt it will stay on him, as Haru repped out and SC hasn't caught up yet. Peabody, Col.Cathart, and CoCo seem to keep charter on the top of their scumlist though.

@Cyberbob re 312: You are correct. Peabody's 160 is a blatant contradiction. I didn't catch your comment on it earlier. Valid point and it incited my iso-Peabody.

@SerialClergymen re 313: You haven't said anything yet and I think you know thats unfair. If you're scum we know nothing about you, you really do stand out because if you haven't finished your read, your replacee posted in a strange way before ducking out and then you've been putting off your post. If you're having a hard time getting into the discussion, why don't you explain to me your position on charter? Haru had a vote on charter, and now that you've replaced him, you do too. Do you agree with this vote and are you going to keep it, or do you disagree with it and if so what are you going to do with it?

@mathcam re 318: I thought "why do you assume my soul-searching will necessarily come up pro-CoCo? Know something we don't?" was a very clever assertion and though I know you'll respond to what charter already said I'm looking forward to hearing what you say back. I'm having a hard time getting a good read on the discussion between the two of you. Also... can you tell me how you feel about Col.Cathart right now? I don't ask randomly but because of 319 and your position against charter who is voting for Col.Cathart.

@Hoopla re 331: I've explained as best I can why I might seem non-committal. I understand completely that the vote is my greatest tool as a townie... and yes I can use it to prod people or pressure people. I had a problem with the bandwagon at the beginning of this game, and now understand how they can be useful - do those two not correlate to you as similar? If I'm not making much sense: what about what I have said this game, or the opinions I am making known / stances I am making? Could you comment on those as well as my vote pattern instead of just my comment that I vote less than most people? I'm not non-committal. It just takes me longer than most people to throw out my vote... do you understand the distinction I am drawing?

Happy birthday, by the way.

@Vaya: please come back. I feel I have as much on you that I have on HaruSC, which is nothing.

[le Chat]

Post iso-peabody:

@Peabody: re my question about your choosing Talitha to iso, I understand it completely after reading your iso. Your last two posts pre your iso-talitha were a back-and-forth with her where I think you are in the right. Your first post, the late RVS vote, is questionable/noteworthy. But like I said before, I don’t think it is scummy. You asked questions to SensFan, CoCo, Hoopla (Hoopla question was really good). You’re also voting charter and agreeing with Col.Cathart on his opinion of charter. I guess you’ve been a lot more involved than I subconsciously gave you credit for. However, I’m looking forward to your response to Cyberbob’s assertion that you contradicted yourself pretty solidly.

[le Chat]

@Hoopla 311: I hope I didn't misinterpret your suspicion of me by ignoring the qualifier that you were answering peabody by saying which

behaviors

you find scummy and not which

people

you find scummy. However, I'm pretty sure I didn't misinterpret it and I'm pretty sure you said I'm your second largest suspect... so the questions remain. And I hope you can clarify for me.

[le Chat]

Umm SerialClergyman: I know you said you'd elaborate further, but I expect to fully understand why you think mathcam/CoCo/Hoopla is more townie than I am and why I'm just as townie as Vaya! I'm super townie!

[le Chat]

French, so obv-scum :P

In all seriousness, a little more wordy than I would like, but with a good amount of information, so I can live with it. Not a fan of her not voting, and that's probably the biggest blemish against her, but I'm willing to assume that's a playstyle thing, largely since I'm too lazy to manually search, and that's nowhere near policylynch-worthy.

leChat, can you link to to your 5 most recent completed games?

The french aren't commies! Think of me as... Jean-Jacques le Chat.

Both you and SerialClergyman, and Hoopla, and maybe others but these come to mind, have all questioned my hesitancy to vote and the feeling that I get from this, and my other current games, is that it is something I simply must get over.

I can't link you to my 5 most completed games, but I can explain to you why. I have played on another forum for a while and after playing a lot of games together we are making some kind of migration over to mafiascum. I don't want these other players to know who I am, so I've established le Chat as a new persona. I can tell you that I am currently in Open 166 and Mini 845, but they are not completed, and I know that does not give you what you wanted. It's very similar to Hoopla's request earlier, and I have to give you the same answer, but I'm more detailed because after two requests I guess it is due.

To expand on the word careful, I mean careful that anything he attacks he is unquestionably right on. By that I mean there's almost no gut read, almost no sweeping declarations, almost no theory that can be argued with. His point always start at a minor scummy sentence and regularly stay there, never becoming something even mildly controversial.

This was directed from SC to Cyberbob, but when reading it I couldn't help but think it might also apply to me as well.

--

I feel like Vaya's post 423 cites an opinion that I had towards Peabody when Cyberbob brought up Peabody's "gut feelings hypocrisy," which was that Peabody was getting away with very little and his iso on Talitha was strange and went nowhere. However, I did an iso-Peabody afterwards and found that after educating myself, I didn't feel that way anymore; I discovered that the iso-Talitha that Peabody did wasn't strange seeing as how Talitha was the person he had most conversation with. I also find it different that Vaya does not comment on the reason why I initially found Peabody more suspicious, which was the "gut feeling hypocrisy" that Cyberbob pointed out.

This, combined with his catch-up vote on Col Cathart that he unvoted after recognizing that he was wrong on specifics because he hadn't really caught-up, attract my vote for now. I also think this will be a good way to hear more from Vaya because I feel like you haven't contributed much after the initial wagon on Hoopla and its pertaining discussion.

vote: Vaya

[le Chat]

i have been gone for a bit and i will catch up tomorrow morning after my test. sorry for the delay.

[le Chat]

i dont really think we should spend too much effort trying to outguess the nightkill. that seems like chasing ghosts. we can definitely remember what talitha said now that we know she wasn't scum, but i think more important is that peabody *was* scum, and we can work with that.

i think that peabody's wifom garbage doesn't matter and it doesn't make me any more or less suspicious of vaya. i sort of have to force myself to think that way, purposefully. I had my vote on vaya when Day 1 ended, and the peabody wagon finalized when I was away with the semester's first exams, but I'm not going to revote vaya. i think my vote is better off of him.

i reread Day 1 after I saw peabody was dead scum and I tried to find connections to his possible partner(s). a lot of people seemed to accept the fact that he was scum near the end, and pointed blame towards each other. the end of the wagon was confusing, mainly including talitha, sensfan, and serialclergyman. though talitha turned up vanilla townie, a patriot, god rest her soul, and it makes me rethink the Day 1 end scramble.

Peabody went after CoCo a fair amount. He also focused on Talitha.

I'm going to AWA this weekend, so I will post again tomorrow (Fri), and then I'll be V/LA for the weekend with more thoughts on Mon.

[le Chat]

I am pretty sure Peabody is scum and two of the people not voting him and ignoring him are his buddies. This list to include

mathcam
Col.Cathart
Talitha
SerialClergyman
le Chat
SensFan

I really have absolutely no clue how all of these people seem to have nothing to say AT ALL about Peabody, and he is sitting at L-1. You all need to state whether you think Peabody is scum or not, and why.

Had I stopped thinking here instead of my mathcam tangent, I'd say mathcam, Talitha, and SensFan are no longer probable Peabody buddies. SerialClergyman moves in to the spot under Cathart, with le Chat filling in spot three. Vaya gets the honorable mention in my scumfecta due to chronic lurking and Peabody's last words.

Hmm. You said you were pretty sure he was scum and 2/6 of these are his scumbuddies, but peabody had garnered a good amount of suspicion by people at this point. Also, you said "two of the people not voting him and ignoring him are his buddies." Obviously Talitha wasn't his buddy, but besides that, Talitha was not ignoring him. Likewise, I was not ignoring him. I iso-read him and posted my thoughts and asked him questions, and I also cited that the contradiction about "feeling scummy" that Cyberbob pointed out was very noteworthy.

My top 3 picks for today's lynch are CoCo, Cathart and charter:

- CoCo for flipflopping to Peabody being "probable town" right when the wagon was looking dangerous and then offering to hammer when it was all-but certain that he was going to be lynched (while still maintaining that he thought he was town? wtf?),
- Cathart for the same reasons I suspected him yesterday with an additional point about his consistent defence of Peabod using some rather questionable arguments and
- charter for hopping off the Peabody wagon when he did.

Vote: CoCo

- I know I said I'd give him a chance to lift his game today but that absurd last post of his was just too much. Peabody's flip was just the icing on the cake.

I think Cyberbob is looking mad cute right now. First vote on Peabody and also pointed out that inconsistency/contradiction about how Peabody "felt" that he was scummy for "feeling."

I'm going to AWA this weekend so I won't be able to post but I will read up on CoCo when I get back, as well as Cathart and charter.

[le Chat]

Ninja'd by charter.

After reading through Peabody's posts looking for connections to Col.Cathart, I find these. One response to a question from Peabody very early in the game. One defense of Cathart in this post.

Charter, a majority of your posts are one liners, but I would not call this 'active lurking'.

Col.Cathart has ended up posting a lot more than he used to. Charter, I'm not sure that Col.Cathart has actually admitted to 'active lurking'. He admitted to not paying attention earlier in the game:

And I quote

Now, you're twisting my words. I admitted to not paying attention in early game.

Charter, it seems as if you are twisting people's words around. Also I see you conveying LOTS of emotion in your posts.

And one more defense of Cathart in this post.

About the charter/Col battle, I'm still not seeing a contradiction in Col.Cathart's play. He acknowledged that he hasn't been posting much because he hasn't been keeping up with the thread. Furthermore, Col.Cathart has been making great posts with a lot of content and a lot of questions which is more than you can say about charter (although I don't believe charter is actively lurking).

That was all I found in the ways of interacting with Col.Cathart. Twice defending him and once answering an innocuous question directed at him from Cathart. I think this is a pretty strong connection between them.

I definitely don't think that these look like any 'clever play' by Peabody, like you said he was capable of a few posts ago, and agree with you that they look like questionable connections. I think that the limit of 'clever play' that we got from Peabody was the last minute wine.

I also look forward to seeing what CoCo and the birthday girl have to say on Day 2!

[le Chat]

Meow everyone. Crazy weekend at awa and now I'm stuck in Atlanta trying to get my car fixed. Still kinda v/la.

If you all wanted meta on me I just completed my first full game here at ms as le chat. It was Open 166 Lovers mafia and I lost as scum.

I don't really follow the necessity of the game mechanics debate that just went on here. When I am back at my computer I hope to spend time parsing the thread and put down another good post.

[le Chat]

Meow everyone. Crazy weekend at awa and now I'm stuck in Atlanta trying to get my car fixed. Still kinda v/la.

If you all wanted meta on me I just completed my first full game here at ms as le chat. It was Open 166 Lovers mafia and I lost as scum.

I don't really follow the necessity of the game mechanics debate that just went on here. When I am back at my computer I hope to spend time parsing the thread and put down another good post.

[le Chat]

Mathcam, you -do- see cyberbob as a potential Peabody pairing? The immediate and still strong feeling that I got from the pb lynch was that cyberbob looked pretty town for it, noteworthy being the first vote on the pb lynch but also his pointing out the contradictory statement pb made about "feeling x is scummy" when x was a "feeling y is scummy." apologies that I can't cite specific posts now on phone. Do you consider that suspicious distancing? Because i do/did not.

[le Chat]

Agree with cam on iffy feelings to Hoopla. Don't feel like I hear enough from her to understand where she stands. Was just going to wait to hear more from her and get a real opinion until you said you felt similar.

Cyberbob, just noting to you that you are unvoting CoCo at the point where he isn't posting to irritate you. Has he posted on D2 yet?

[le Chat]

didn't mean to imply it was your only reason. i did chuckle when i read that you unvoted him after he hasnt spoken in a while, after Day 1's mass comments about his playstyle being aggressive/mean/non-townie/whatnot.

[le Chat]

I still think Charter is scum. Its not a stance I'm going to be changing. Can I make a case against him to convince people a Charter lynch is a good lynch? No, and I wish I could.

Am I scum? Of course not. Has my play this game been good? Negative. But saying my behavior where Charter is concerned amounts to nothing but eye-rolling isn't going to help the town win. And I therefore refuse to let go of my lynch candidate simply because its a case involving too many subtleties and not a lot of hard evidence.

Can you not please point out these subtleties to me, or at least manifest your case in generalities / summaries instead of saying you can't?

Pertaining to Hoopla's post, and also @Hoopla: What you said is pretty convincing from the CoCo -> Peabody angle, but what CoCo said in response also makes sense... basically, what about from the Peabody -> CoCo angle? Peabody commented many times that he found CoCo suspicious, that he would be down for a CoCo lynch. I don't think Peabody would have held that belief overtly if he were CoCo's scummate. What do you think?

[le Chat]

hi everyone. im going to be v/la this weekend, and i will be back sunday night with a post!

[le Chat]

hi everyone. im sorry my vla went longer than i wanted. i have class within the hour and im really exhausted, but i will pour my heart into a post today because i love you all.

[le Chat]

Hmm.

I hate Vaya's attitude. Like someone said in another game I'm in somewhere once, scummyness is a sink or swim business, and when you stop defending yourself (swimming) you start to look scummy (sinking). I really hate how you are just kinda rolling over and accepting this wifom thing and acknowledging opinions that you are a good lynch target. If you're town then you know you're confirmed town to yourself and then advocating your own lynch is like advocating a lynch on a confirmed townie like if you were a cop and got an inno and then lynched him. =| see

If the rest of the town really thinks that lynching me is a good idea, I won't fight against it, especially because of my poor activity in this game thus far. I of course, am not in favor of my lynch though.

Its not that the logic behind my lynch is entirely bad, but I could very well see Sens-scum pushing for this lynch to buy scum an extra day.

And if I haven't said it before, I really do agree that if I'm going to be lynched for this, it should be done today.

But since everyone seems to want a claim out of me, I'm just a vanilla townie. You guys can go ahead and lynch me now, I think it might be a good idea to get me out of the way.

Meh, I kinda want to be lynched after all this discussion of my policy lynch, given that the reasoning behind it makes some sense, and after I've claimed.

your response to the wifom makes me think that its real. you seem to be playing along with it. which is totally different than what you said end of D1, when you lolled at it.

I'm a

Hot Nurse

. I can either protect or roleblock. Preemptive answer for the next question: I decided to play WIFOM game with Peabody, and I roleblocked Vaya on Night 1.

Do with this info what you want.

sounds interesting and could be a real role, though my opinion of power roles is based on the role we got before we re-rolled the game. which brings up the point that: this role that col cathart is claiming could be his real role or it could be a 'safeclaim' that he got by being the town hot nurse in the initial game and then being re-rolled scum.

EBWOP:

Cathart, do you know if you are able to protect yourself?

No, I don't know. There's nothing written about about it in my role PM.

@_@ you could check with the mod or something. this kinda seems like giving up too.

Well, I think everyone should weigh in (if they haven't already) and give their opinion on A) Cathart's scumminess and B) Cathart's claim.

A) Very scummy
B) Bogus

a) scummy
b) sounds real

which puts me in a bad spot like i described two quotes above. i think his claim is real. i think hes been scummy. direct conflict with each other. cat-ache.

Cyberbob, stop being dumb. By your logic, any Scum that claims something half-decent won't be lynched.
Col.C, stop being Scum. If you seriously didn't think RBs blocked kills, I don't think you would have blocked the person most likely to submit a kill.

Unvote, Vote: Col.Cathart

Thoughts of Vaya haven't changed.

this is good logic imo. /cosign

le Chat was promising a catch up post, so I'll let him do so before I hammer.

thank you. this happened on day 1 as well but i didnt get a chance to say anything on the v/la weekend that the day actually ended on.

[le Chat]

As for the rest of your post, it feels quite wishy-washy. I'd rather you made definitive assessments on Vaya and Cathart.

Who is your prefered lynch out of Vaya and Cathart?
Would you hammer Cathart if I wasn't going to vote him?

i would like to see vaya kick his butt when he runs and start posting opinions and get back in the game. i would take the pact. i would also choose to lynch cathart over vaya.

if you told me right now you werent going to hammer him, i wouldnt hammer in your place. i fear his claim is for real and were getting rid of doctor-man. i dont mind more talking.

le chat, any coment on the night choice of cathart?

you mean that he says he chose to roleblock vaya instead of doc protecting someone? well the main problem is that he later said he didnt know roleblocks stopped kills. as a doctor-role youre doing a lot more by stopping a potential kill by roleblocking the killer or doctoring the target than you are doing by roleblocking a non-lethal mafia action, which is what he said his goal was, as he didnt know a roleblock would stop a kill. thats if there are 2 maf.

ugh. that is a dumb stance for him to take. doesnt make sense.

hoopla i dont know if i would hammer him or not. i fear losing a doc role and his claim sounds like it could be true. end of day 1 he was literally voting WITH peabody. that seems careless to do if you are maf partner with peabody, be the only two people voting a guy.

i wouldnt hammer if you didnt. i think we can still look at more people toDay.

[le Chat]

huh. that is totally true, but then if you were scum then your scummate would have had a pr pre-game. so its not impossible, thats just a silly coincidence.

[le Chat]

I suppose I'll just point it out anyway.
Charter says:

"Also, my main Peabodyscum theory stems almost entirely from Col.Cathartscum, so it would be dumb on my part to lynch Peabody first, especially since he's looked way more pro town recently.

Will continue this post when I get back from dinner and proceed in voting mathcam."

If its dumb to vote for Peabody instead of Cathart, why did you decide to go eat dinner before coming back and voting for Mathcam? Just who is your main suspect?

Charter has been pulling crap like this the entire game.

Also, his reasoning for leaving the Peabody wagon looks to me like a thinly veiled attempt to clear Peabody.

Charter this is 2/2 Coco's posts against you, and immediately after it you just dismissed him and didn't comment on this. But if scum-charter pushed Peabody and Col Cathart, but Cathart first, and Cat flipped town, then you would be able to overtly rethink your position on Peabody, and not pursue him. But since Peabody came first, then you were able to pursue Cathart. Do you want to comment on that now that Coco is still pushing you today?

I'll bet Hoopla is also scum.

You're doing exactly what Hoopla just said... OMGUSing people who do not believe you. Not helping...

I think Hoopla is correct in stating that SensFan coward --> hider. But also, then, if he died because he targeted a mafia, then there would be 2 kills last night unless mafia was blocked. So do you still think he died because he targeted mafia?

I agree with Cyberbob (also charter) that the SensFan kill is a second layer on this tiered-WIFOM cake that has Vaya's name on it.

I feel kinda dumb because SensFan told me I need to grow a pair, but in the end I was right to hesitate on that lynch... I guess if I hesitate on all of them I'll end up being right sooner or later. :< -urg-

I was down with a vaya pact day 2 but I am not day 3.

vote: Vaya

[le Chat]

responding to prod. dont want to be replaced! reading now!

[le Chat]

1. charter
2. CoCo
3. Cyberbob
4. SerialClergyman
6. Hoopla
7. le Chat
8. mathcam
12. Vaya

I'm a cat, obviously I'm town aligned.

If I had to pick a person who I think is least scummy besides myself it would be Cyberbob. I haven't found myself disagreeing with him on anything, and also his attitude, and accusation, and vote towards Peabody on Day 1 have pretty much solidified that for me, since the end of Day 1.

CoCo pushes charter often, and I am currently fairly happy with my assessment that charter chose Col Cathart D1 over Peabody because he could lynch Cathart and then use it to hesitate D2 on Peabody. It fits.

Hmph @ Hoopla. I may not have been the most active player in this game but I have been hunting for what I find to be mistakes and inconsistencies. Note my point towards charter, regarding his opinions on Col Cathart and Peabody, in my post 895 as a most recent example that I guess you simply skipped over.

No way would I let Vaya do the kill if I was his scumpartner. He'd be WAY too likely to draw role investigation.

Possibly - it's more guesswork though.

What I am worried about is if Vaya and/or CoCo aren't scum, it lets scum almost coast to victory unchallenged.

Does it not bother anyone else that these convenient lynches are being followed by almost everyone? It just seems too obvious.

Wait, so you'd be comfortable having CoCo alive in lylo?

After claiming vanilla town for no reason, and generally being a nuisance, what incentive is there for scum to kill him? This isn't mentioning his scummy antics. He will either need to be lynched or left alive throughout the game. Although they probably both aren't scum, I would personally take my chances on Vaya being town, rather than CoCo.

Either way, I think we almost have to lynch one of these two today before it gets too late. It should be CoCo though.

Bolding is my own emphasis. These seem to directly contradict each other. All too well I understand worrying and second thoughts, but you call both lynches too convenient and then immediately after you say we have to lynch one of them. Usually the second thoughts come after the statement and develop into some sort of change of opinion (ex: my thoughts on Col. Cathart, his claim, second thoughts, will not vote for his lynch).

@Mathcam, I don't like a point you make in your post 912:

Sure it's possible. I'd say likely. I'm fine not speculating on the other roles, but I think it's significant that most of these scenarios lead to Sens targeting mafia. So the question is:

"Who does Sens think was not mafia and not likely to be targeted by the mafia?"

I think Vaya and CoCo are clearly out. Sens wouldn't have taken the chance of hiding with them. Not sure about charter, but I'd put everyone else as a plausible hiding target. If I had to pick the most likely, I'd go with Cyberbob. Sens' interactions with him yesterday made me think he found him townish.

You are hypothesizing that SensFan's death came from his mis-hide as a Coward, and therefore we should attempt to hunt and lynch those people that he thought were pro-town enough to hide behind? You are basically saying that we should entertain the idea of voting to lynch those people who Sens thought were pro-Town, those people that we most likely also think are pro-Town. Can you explain to me how that isn't directly anti-Town?

I do not think we can use Sens' role and his death to determine scum. I think that opens too many possible doors. Especially considering the fact that it is super odd to see that he, a Coward, was a lone night death, when his role makes it seem like there is either 0 or 2 deaths when it concerns him. It is super confusing and I don't want it to cloud my judgment.

Other than that, I need to think about where I place you!

I understand the logic that if there is only a 2-man mafia in this game, and Vaya is the last mafioso, and Col Cathart roleblocked him, there would have been no kill. I also suspect that it is a 2-man mafia and not a 3-man, because that is what it was pre-re-roll. So that is a fairly strong point for Vaya. I don't know if it is strong enough for me to unvote yet, so I'm hesitate to unvote. Especially considering Vaya's lack of input and his unexplained vote.

I hesitate, but I do

unvote

I need to think about SerialClergyman, to pin what I think. He leans more to the scum side than the town side for me. I need to read again I guess with a focus on SC. Pertaining to his vote-count analysis, it seems like a good way to figure things out, but I was purposefully not on the Col Cathart lynch Day 2. After his claim, I didn't want to vote for him. I guess you can fault me for that when you say I also wasn't on the Peabody lynch Day 1, but I was also gone for a while. Yeah, no johns. Need to grow a pair, etc. But it's true.

in order
townsies atm:
le chat
cyberbob
coco
questionables atm:
hoopla
mathcam
vaya
scumsies atm:
serialclergyman
charter

I will read more soon I'm sure, and I will clean up this list. The bottom will most likely change more freely than the top. I wont vote until I feel more confident in my reading.

[le Chat]

yeah im in atlanta right now and ive got court early in the morning, and then i get to drive back and take a genetics exam

i have some logics that i worked out on hider stuff after cam told me that ignoring things bc they are confusing is silly. but really im exhausted and i just want to post to say hello i am still keeping up and thinking about the game and i am not going to fall behind.