/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

/confirm

[SerialClergyman]

vote xyl

because he's been begging for it for ages!

[SerialClergyman]

Official weirdest moments of the game was posts 101 and 102 for me. And that includes the sock puppet ><

I don't know why KMD would put pressure to turn a HoS into a vote, and I especially don't know why BridgesandBalloons would listen to him and say something ridiculous like 'the Xyl wagon will continue without me'.

Definitely the most promising of the early wagons.

unvote Xyl, vote BridgesandBalloons

[SerialClergyman]

My apologies for my lack of posting, I've had a ridiculously busy period trying to finalise buying an apartment. Normal service to resume shortly.

[SerialClergyman]

Y'ello.

My apologies for my lack of input into the game. You'll notice that of my 4 active games, 2 are getting a lot of attention and 2 aren't. That's a direct result of how late the game has gone on - I naturally post more towards the end of a game than in the early stages and it's just been massively exacerbated by an extremely important RL issue.

So apologies, but so it goes. I'll try to give you an idea of where I am with this game some time soon, but for now I'm off to bed.

[SerialClergyman]

I agree Serial needs to get his ass here.

We, being far less couth than some other English-derivative speakers, would insert an 'r' into that word. But all of that is just a well-worded and pithy way of saying SerialClergyman's arse is officially here.

I apologise for the lack of content from me, hopefully this will mark a big turnaround. Plus I've never been one for the first day(s) anyway.

Ok - game time.

Scummiest

I think I'm going to vote Yossarian. It's actually more gut than anything else, and it stems from your post at 447. I don't get it at all. It looks like you're a) overly worried about the vote on yourself, b) claiming OMGUS when it wan't really justified (in fact it seems you ironically claimed OMGUS as a way of defending against the charge) and c) BAB caught you out in a pretty big fib in his post at 453. I know you responded to it, but your response looked like overreactive scum.

In fact, lets have a look at it more closely.

instead of voting for me in what is clearly either a complete failure to read my posts or a pure OMGUS vote?

My vote for you is because you're scum. I explained why I believe you're scum. You have completly failed to refute that. Plus you claimed vanillia, which automatically makes you a good lynch anyway.

Also, I thought you said you were voting for me because I said that if you were scum xyl was town?

So you put it out there that his attack on you is OMGUS, which is a relatively poor suggestion. He has actually given you plenty of reasons - none of which were based on your vote for him.

So he replies at 453, quoting where he had given further reasons for his vote:

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

and then says

If you just quoted my post, which stated my reasons for voting you, and then say that I'm voting you "because I think you're not his scumbuddy," I have no choice but to believe you are purposely lying and not simply missing my posts.

Then, you replied thusly:

So, yes, you were originally voting me because I said that Xyl is town if you're scum.

Afterwords, once I had demonstrated that your wrong and that there was nothing scummy about that, you completely changed your reason; you changed it into basically a bad imitation of Claus' case against me. Basically, it looks like you really want to vote me because I'm voting you, and you'll come up with whatever reason you can to do so, and change your reason when the first one is disproven. What's worse, you seem to refuse to even admit that's what you're doing.

The fact that you're trying to claim "I'm lying" about your reason, when IT WAS THE REASON YOU GAVE WHEN YOU VOTED ME JUST YESTERDAY, has completely convinced me you're cornered scum. You've now gotten to the point where you're actually lying about your own posts in a desperate attempt to make your attackers look bad.

So this doesn't look like someone who is genuinely trying to work out who's scum. Whether BAB used those reasons when he first voted you or not, there's still a genuine question there that you've completely ignored. You can make the point that he's added to his original reasons, but you still have to answer them. Your last post is overly aggressive and overly sure. You don't acknowledge that your summary of his reasons for voting you didn't include the reaosns he added later even though you were definitely aware of them.

And the language isn't right either. This might be more of a gut thing, but you're too derisive. A cornered scum with a desperate attempt to make his attackers look bad? Really? That's a lot of language to use, and it masks the fact that your post doesn't really address the issue, just stubbornly sticks to his inital reasons and calls him scummy for adding new ones - whether they were worthwhile or not.

In addition, I also have a gut townread on kmd and also don't like your characterisation of yesterday's posts. His argument wasn't that scum never claim vanilla, it was primarily a gut read that scum in BAB's position wouldn't claim vanilla. It was a gutsy point that he knew he'd take flak for but made it anyway. I'm not sure how that plays to a scummy agenda, especially given BAB was in fact a townie.

In short - I think you were arguing about the theory of whether or not 'someone' who claims vanilla d1 should be lynched, but KMD was saying he thought BAB was town and the vanilla claim in that particular situation was part of the reason why. There's a subtle but significant difference between the points.

How do you feel kmd's play was scummy yesterday given the known status of BAB + the others that died?

Runner up prize:

zu faul - you finally get into the game by voting me, mentioning it's a pressure vote and saying nothing else about me. I feel more pressure on me to shave my ugly facial hair than I feel from that limpy vote. At least the others who had voted me had bothered to have a look and see the levels of posting discrepency. (note it's not just mafia 96, I've also been pretty active in Welcome to Foggylondontown, but I've also been very lurky in Webcomic Wars. It's a mix of how late the game has gone on and limited time. Thankfully I'm at night and in a quiet patch in the two most active games so here I am.)

I don't think that you particularly think I'm scum, I think you just needed somewhere to park. Tell me strongly and proudly who you think is most likely to be scum and why, please.

Some other questions:

Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?

iam - How do you rate your play so far in this game?

rofl - My vote was on the BAB wagon and I was definitely for it. I'm not going to claim that I was impartial to it but voted him nonetheless. I was there, I wanted it to happen. Now - given almost all your theories were completely wrong, do you think you deserve some scrutiny, or were you happy with how you read yesterday?

Pooky - was the charter vote serious?

Vote Yossarian

[SerialClergyman]

Good honest answer. I asked because when I've seen you in other games your posts have occasionally been written on pure distilled awesome and this game not so much. Didn't know if it was scumminess or just not having a good day at the office and it seems to be the second. Looking forward to it improving.

Out of curiosity, why the zu_faul vote?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, simpulposted the above.

Thanks Xyl, although it's a copout you included yourself

[SerialClergyman]

Little time, but some things of note:

1) Since you find OMGUS such a worrying sign, it's worth mentioning I've skyrocketed to 2nd on your scumlist directly after posting a case against you, when previous to that I don't think you mentioned me once. Of the three reasons you give,
a) You never mention my lurking all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it,
b) Never mention my behaviour yesterday (by which I assume you mean my lurking) all through yesterday or early today or when other people were mentioning it and
c) My attack on you - well, hello OMGUS.

2) BAB originally used the point about Xyl to vote you. Then raised a number of other points, that you noticed because you quoted them after. Then you failed to mention those points completely and mischaracterised BAB's position as only being about the initial reason.

Regardless of your theory that BAB added to his reasoning because you argued his first point too well, or it was some kind of OMGUS attack, your mischaracterisation of his position and failure to mention the additional points is scummy.

3) Well, I certainly had the impression it was more to do with this particular scenario and actually KMD did relate his point specifically to Bridges. But your quotes make it clear you are pushing a case rather than trying to find out the truth. (hence why you didn't include the 'I'm probably going to take flak for this' in his unvote, which I saw as particularly townie) An example, when asked if he thought scum couldn't claim vanilla -

And I didn't say they can't. I just don't see Bridge doing it. He'd be more likely to claim a power role as scum instead of laying down and taking a lynch. That's unless he's being bussed hard, and is ok with being lynched, but I still think he'd fight it and try to get a mislynch for today.

4) Any reason why you felt that BAB would OMGUS you specifically out of the entire rest of the wagon?

5) I particularly like this from rofl:

serial is chainsawing for kmd hard, and at this point attacking yos is a scumtell.

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.

Besides, a chainsaw defence is supposed to be a subtle way of defending someone without being linked to them - relatively unusual that I would do that while specifically mentioning my town read of kmd.

More news as events warrant.

[SerialClergyman]

1) I'm not sure I see how what you wrote in 1) actually answers the charge against you. You may well have considered me no. 2 on your scumlist before Xyl asked you and never thought to mention it once, but I don't believe that. It seems very likely to me that my position in your suspicions has a big part to do with my post against you.

And in case it wasn't clear the first time around, I made my case against you after a re-read now that I have some time to commit to the game. From what I followed on D1 I was happy with the BAB lynch. Now I'm looking back in retrospect with a detailed re-read and I noticed the exchange in question. That's my reason for not talking about your scummy behaviour prior to my bringing it up. What's your reason for not talking about mine until I made a post against you?

Do you usually say that lurking is a scumtell?

2) So your reason for not mentioning the new points is that it was a tl:dr summary.

Why didn't you ever just say that? Even when BAB accused you of misrepping him, I seem to remember you railed on about him being a liar and someone desperately omgusing you. Why not just say 'Well, that was just a summary, I didn't include every reason you've ever had for suspecting me.'?

I'm not trying to mischaracterise your position, it just keeps changing.

'I didn't include it because it was just a 3-line post'

is different to

'That wasn't your reason, look at your post voting me'.

3)

Yeah, I still think he's talking about scum in general there; he used bridges name, but I don't think any of that has anything to do with bridges personally, it's all just talking about the position he was in.

Well, would have been good of you to at least include it or make a reference to it in your posts earlier. It mentions Bridge's name twice and specifically talks about his scenario.

And I didn't say they can't. I just don't see Bridge doing it.

Besides - it also specifically notes that it's not that scum CAN'T fake vanilla, but that he felt bridges WASN'T. That cannot be interpreted as a general case - that's him saying the general is possible but in this specific case he feels that bridges isn't.

4) Fair enough, if your point is Bridges only attacked and defended those on or against his side I'll conceede that.

5) Nope, not rolefishing, stating the obvious. rofl made an illogicial and hypocritical point about chainsawing. If his point is that I am chainsawing because I'm defending KMD by attacking Yos2 and he makes that WHILE defending Yos2 by attacking me, he's got some explaining to do to show the difference.

I also found your FoS cute. . Because being 2nd on your scumlist doesn't mean your suspicion is on me? That sort of stuff always screams of Perry Mason theatrics to me.

[SerialClergyman]

Tajo - I don't see scum motivation for what KMD did. Earnt more suspicion for getting off a townie wagon (and he knew what he was in for), when just riding it to lynch he'd fade into the rest of the wagon who were doing the same thing. It was an odd decision, but real gut decisions often are.

Yos2 is over the top. Aggression overload, posting overload. No time to think, just time to argue. No concessions, no doubt, just a clusterfuck of semi-tells and rhetoric. I don't believe he's thinking about his position, just latching on to whatever he knows appears scummy and running with it.

So what is the point/motivation of this question, serial?

My suspicion is confirmation bias, rofl running with the theory of kmd being scum sees a chainsaw, without realising that when you take away his theory his point is clearly a carbon copy replica of the behaviour he is attacking.

[SerialClergyman]

M'okay.
So close but so far from consensus.

Yos: Anyway, B&B voted me for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE! I DIDN'T VOTE YOU FOR X!

Should read:

Yos: Anyway, B&B

is voting

me for X, I proved X wrong. He still hasn't answered the points I raised against him. He's probably scum.
B&B: THAT'S A LIE!

I JUST TOLD YOU about Y and Z which I specifically said I was voting you for.

[/quote]

Now, how could you have been expected to know that he was voting you for all those reasons? Becuase you asked... and he answered..

Also, you seem to be voting me...because you don't understand why I just said that you wouldn't say that if you were scum with Xyl, or something?

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

And then you quoted that answer.

I can't make it much clearer than that.

Your attack against me was scummy. It's scummy as hell to be in favor of a bandwagon on day 1, then on day 2 to attack me for that same bandwagon. And your constant misrepresentation were scummy as well.

Are you suggesting I'm attacking you 'because of the bandwagon'? This sort of comment is just so much hot air. Attacking people you think are scummy isn't scummy, I'm not simplyu attacking you because you were on a bandwagon (that I approved of) and the misrepresentations are in your head. I'm just going by the thread, and I think as quoted above my position is clear.

Since you didn't mention the kmd was speaking generally or specifically point, can I take it you've conceeded that he was speaking specifically? Or are we just agreeing to disagree? Either way, is my read of kmd still scummy?

Your response to the lurking question is interesting. I would have said that my lurking this game was indeed scummy because it's very unlike my meta (see my sig). I don't think I've seen many people who view it as an outright scumtell - most I find seem to view it as a nulltell that is anti town. Will be metaing to check your stance.

Esepcally since, whenever I prove you wrong, you then invent some other BS reason to attack me. Like this:

Quote:

5) Nope, not rolefishing, stating the obvious.

Sorry? That wasn't attacking you at all.. Perhaps I didn't explain very well - I was saying that rofl accusing me of chainsawing for kmd is poor logic until he's sure that I or kmd are scum. Otherwise, you could argue that if Y is attacking Z, X is chainsaw defending Z if he attacks Y. And then fill in essentially any player names for the letters. I then went on that this particular defence is supposed to be SUBTLE, ie - if I were scum, I wouldn't want people to KNOW I was scum with KMD. So rather than declare he's town, I would just attack you and your credibility, so your attacks against kmd are naturally dismissed. However I'm making no secret of my gut read of KMD, so the chainsaw charge is pretty useless.

What was particularly funny about the situation was that he was saying I was scummy for attacking you - which, of course, would be a chainsaw defence of you if you were scum. So my point wasn't attacking you or rofl, it was saying his attack on me wasn't valid, and so obviously demonstrated by his own very sentence.

Fair enough about the FoS - it just looked redundant and overly dramatic, but I'm just not an FoS kinda guy.

[SerialClergyman]

Do you see something disengenuous in only putting forward one part of the reasons someone is voting you irregardless of whether it was the inital reason or not?

[SerialClergyman]

^^ Eeek, badlogic.

1) It matters whether he mentions my lurking previously because we are trying to determine whether his suspicion of me is born of my case against him. As it was, Yos2 went from not mentioning SC ---- not mentioning SC --- SC makes case agaisnt Yos2 --- Yos2 declares SC 2nd most scummy in game. This suggests to me that my case certainly had something to do with it.

2)

And since it is clear Yos is voting you because he feels you are misrepping him and lying about him, I would say that by your own definition, he is not OMGUSing you.

Well, I would argue both of those points are born from my case on him. It may well be that it's a legitimate concern, but it looks to me like he didn't like that I attacked him, felt threatened and either a) hit back as scum or b) assumed scumminess on the part of his attacker as town.

However, happily we don't have to debate too much over whether there was OMGUS involved - I generally view OMGUS as essentially a null-tell and was more focusing on the hypocrasy of someone who is quick to accuse others of OMGUS while displaying certainly some of those characteristics himself. (Hypocrasy can be a scumtell.)

Regardless - as I'm 'so scummy' with an ominous ellipsis, would you mind sharing the rest of your reasons with everyone? Or are you content to let your shackled aggression against ekiM remain chained and frothing at the mouth because you feel Yos2 isn't OMGUSing me?

By using my definition and framing your point in my terms, would you be conceeding that my original point that BAB had plenty of reasons to vote Yos2 besides OMGUS and that Yos2's charge of OMGUS was possily unfair was true?

[SerialClergyman]

I like your reaction but I don't like your reasoning. I put in a few arrogant barbs in that post and you were barely riled.

I don't think I've ever shirked away from my lurking, I acknowledge it completely. I've given my reasons, you're welcome to accept them or not. I can also post a photo of my beautiful girlfriend in my brand new apartment if that'll help, but essentially the point is you all have to determine whether it's indicative of me being scum or not - I'm not denying it at all.

Either way, it doesn't look amazing to me. Mention nothing, then case against him, then you lurked. Well duh ><. Why are you only bringing it up now? Something to do with the case I just posted against you, perhaps? etc etc.

I suspect that he hit back against me because I made a case against him. Do you honestly feel that if I made a case against someone else, or if I continued lurking, he would attack me as hard as he has? Again - I'm not saying this is necessarily a scumtell, I can see town or scum doing it, but it's worth nothing.

If OMGUS is a null tell to you, why are you accusing Yos of it? Isn't that hypocritical of you?

All arrogant barbs aside, this is actually terrible logic. I'm accusing Yos of hypocrasy. To do that, I first have to establish that he accused BAB of OMGUS (obvious) and then have to establish that he OMGUSes himself (hopefully done). The hypocrasy is the key point, not the OMGUSing.

YOU PUT IN A SECOND OMINOUS ELLIPSIS WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST ONE! Love it.

Well, I can't help your being underwhelmed by my initial post. I'm not going to comment on people I don't have reads on out of the blue. I also generally dislike posts that ask people to focus on 'more people' as opposed to some specific person or persons that deserve comment - it feels like you don't want me talking aobut the person I'm talking about. Was there someone specific you wanted my thoughts on?

No.

Ah. Would you mind then reviewing the argument and letting me know your decision?

[SerialClergyman]

Hilarious picture ruined by laborious explanation aside, where's the fishing in that point?

I was making the point that even if I accepted all of what Elvis knits so graciously wrote, it seemed her point was that Yos2 wasn't OMGUSing me, which I thought was an odd solitary reason for a vote.

Since then she's elaborated that I haven't commented on enough people (iamusername has a freaky avatar, ekiM's smallest violin image has already been downloaded to my desktop for use to send to annoying friends, I am actually quite touched that Ojanen said she enjoyed playing with me - that's three more commented on RIGHT THERE) and I lurked (orly?) and she didn't get all angry uppity about my semi-nasty little comments so I am much happier with thinking her suspicion townly.

But all that aside, what part of the question suggested to you that I was fishing?

[SerialClergyman]

Lurking, lying, trying to not have an opinion other than "Yos is scum" and "KMD looks town". His posts don't seem like he wants to find scum, they look like he wants Yos2 lynched. He's also fishing for roles.

Dear God! You should lynch THAT guy! I thought you were asked for the case on ME though.

Lurking tick, never disagreed, gave RL, out-of-game reasons, sorry etc.

Lying? Intruiging. There seems to be a preoccupation with language instead of argument on this site sometimes. The argument that Yos2 said exactly what BAB said when BAB voted him is a poor one. Let me try to phrase my argument against Yos2 so that you can understand. If someone asked me what's going on and I said Zu Faul voted me because he thinks I need some pressure, but I'm totally here now and posting so I don't know what his problem is', then that's a pretty dishonest way of describing the situation.

And yet if someone were to question me on it, I could always post a quote of his voting post, where he does indeed say:

But Vote: SerialClergyman for now. He needs some pressure on him. ekiM needs to post as well as him.

IT'S RIGHT THERE YOU LIAR I SAID HE VOTED ME FOR PRESSURE AND THERE'S THE VOTE etc etc in your standard 'caps lock makes me right' voice. Regardless of the fact that Zu Faul did vote me orinigally for one reason, he is obviously voting for a number of reasons, one of which I ironically have hopefully destroyed by talking about them.
Yos2 did the same thing, he quoted only the reasoning in the inital voting post when the actual reasons were much deeper. Whether you think it's reasonable of Yos2 to do what he did or not, my point is still valid, and it's certainly not lying, despite the language games.

Well, I'm not deliberately trying to not have opinions, I'm just not going to make up fake ones if I'm not getting much of a read. Sorry. Plus I have a few - I think rofl is town who is genuinely trying to hunt scum, just doing it poorly. His gift is being able to encourage wagons and tunnel on someone he thinks is scummy in a powerful way, his weakness is an epic case of confirmation bias. (Not that I'm much better with that, but you know). Xyl is voting via his own way, things like following people he thinks are town rather than looking at the case individually. That's just how he plays, null. e_k seems town to me, despite some seriously bad reasoning at times (see debate about OMGUS and hypocracy around 618ish.) Aside from that, and Yos/Kmd, I can't help you really. Unless you wanted a specific read and I'll be glad to tell you my observations.

I think you argument about finding scum vs wanting Yos2 lynched would be a good one if I was hopping on the flavour of the day bandwagon, but I think I'm the only one who's voting Yos atm.. Seems like a poor pick of person to rail against for an easy lynch.

And rolefishing has been an interesting charge. I'm not quite sure how this argument pans out, so I'm going to envisage how they were thinking it was going to go. I've been accused of rolefishing for two things, my description of rofl's chainsaw and my pointing out of e_k's ominous ellipsis.

So rofl accuses me of chainsaw defending kmd and at the same time says attacking Yos2 is practically a scumtell. I say unless you've got some info about Yos2 that I don't have, you're also potentially chainsawing.
Now, were I scum, I imagine my attackers feel I was hoping my dastardly deed would turn the conversation to something like:
'Well I do have info about Yos2, I'm a cop and he's innocent wait DAMN' and Serial kerpows the PR to the congratulations of all his mafia buddies. Absurd, I know.

The second lot of rolefishing I was accused of via picture, which was certainly more enjoyable if not more convincing, was for this statement to elvis when she voted me while defending Yos2 against an OMGUS accusation I made:

Regardless - as I'm 'so scummy' with an ominous ellipsis, would you mind sharing the rest of your reasons with everyone?

I think that my attackers feel the conversation, were I scum and rolefishing, would go something like:
'would you share the rest of your reasons?'
'Yes, I'm a cop who has a guilty on you wait DAMN' and then Serial kerpows the PR to the congratulations of all his mafia buddies.
Absurd, I know.

The short answer is both scenarios are stupid, laughable things to describe as rolefishing. If they were rolefishing, my friendly attackers would at least have to describe them as the most lame and unlikely-to-succede attempts ever.

Or they could realise that the first statement to rofl was and is absolutely true, his argument is hypocritical unless he has some reason to think Yos2 is town beyond gut, and the second statement was simply trying to work out why elvis wouldn't vote someone else because I was too scummy to pass up and then give barely any reasons for it.

In other news:

Yos2 has finally entered puberty, testosterone started flowing though his body and he built up the courage to vote me after the wagon had grown to a sizable number. Unfortunately he decided to concentrate on my summary of his position as something which finally pushed him over the edge, which again points back to OMGUS. It's also probably the least important of all the charges made against me, which is baffling.

Interestingly, he misread my point saying he was looking for 'semi-tells and rhetoric' to read 'scumtells and rhetoric' and got his underpants in a twist about it. I think this is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Rather than re-read what I wrote and try to work out why I was attacking him for looking for scumtells (and thus realise his mistake) he's already on the wagon for it.

But, it could be worse. I could be accusing you of lying and misquoting me and twisting my words, and by language I'd be 100% correct. But it's the argument that's important, and while I think lots of what you write is scummy, that was just a simple misread.

[SerialClergyman]

Continued neglect. Charming. What has it been, 24 hours since my last post?

Anything in particular you'd like an answer to tomorrow? (I'm off to bed, 3:30am.)

[SerialClergyman]

That question was? I wasn't asking you a question at all, I was pointing out that Yos2 and Kmd are both unconfirmed, and you and I were both attacking their attackers. If one of us is chainsawing, the other was too.

[SerialClergyman]

rofl, if I flipped town, would you eat your hat?

[SerialClergyman]

Absolute crap.

the gist of the conversation was

rofl: You're chainsawing for Kmd.
Serial: Well, by that logic YOU'RE chainsawing for Yos2
rofl: Ok, vote.

[SerialClergyman]

rofl, if I flipped town, would you eat your hat?

no but i might eat baltar's

In that case, it might be the first time we get to pull a hat out of a rabbit!!!!


(That entire post was set up for that gag while brushing my teeth. You may all thank me for the gift... of laughter.)

[SerialClergyman]

Yep, I said that, so what. I clearly ddn't expect you to claim in response to my question, did I? How exactly does that conversation go?

Those posts are 100% true. The only reason your argument isn't completely hypocritical is if you were sure that Yos2 was town (or knew he was scum with you - then it's just a lie).

Your charge of chainsawing wasn't any more convincing than ANYONE who attacks ANYONE who is attacking a third party, and it was perfectly demonstrated BY YOUR OWN VERY ATTACK.

I can't be clearer than that.

Genuinely going to bed now, personally hurt you didn't laugh at my hilarious and well-constructed joke.

[SerialClergyman]

I think serial was trying to imply that rofl didn't have a reason to be sure Yos2 is town, and was therefore being a hypocrite.

But anyways, "some knowledge that I don't have" includes meta knowledge. I don't know why you'd read it as meaning role information. If that's what he meant why wouldn't he have written "information" rather than "knowledge"?

rofl in the same post he talked about the chainsawing wrote:

i was happy with how i read yesterday, and unless you know something i don't i still don't think all my theories were wrong. for instance, kmd-zufaul being scum together. and now i'm willing to bet on you for a third partner.

serial making the point about chainsawing answering to rofl wrote:

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.

It felt like a matching response and it was actually making a distinct point about hypocracy that fits the context

Thank you both for framing the point so succinctly.

Having slept on it, I'm more calm about the accusation because I can at least see where rofl is coming from (when I first heard it I thought both posts were so far away from rolefishing it was bound to be a disengenuous attack). I was going to ask rofl how he thought I could have made my point without the 'rolefishing' bit, but given he used the same rhetorical device as Ojanen points out, I think he should be aware that if you're honestly assessing an argument occasionally you make comments like that with absolutely no intent for any role information, just because it's a true description of the argument.

Anyway, enough about rolefishing.

I'm going to take Ojanen and others summary on board and just deal with the fact that others didn't find the Yos2/BAB thing as scummy as I did. I've also metad him and he was absolutely telling the truth about finding lurking a scumtell and his bunrushing pugilistic style echoes across the forum, so without the BAB/Yos2 thing I am left with a pretty meagre case.

So I will back off and post some thoughts. Firstly - I've played with Ojanentown and been heavily involved in a game where she was scum (my good mate was playing and I was watching from the sidelines.) She looks more engaged in the arguments and is posting more analysis than when she was scum, so my meta read is town at the moment, but I'd warn everyone she is really, really good as scum. Tied kaiyruu so heavily to her scumpartner partner with a beautiful selection of quotes he was speechless, and if you've played with kai - that's something.

Kmd puts me on his obvtown list for reasons absolutely unknown. Don't get me wrong, I'm not scum and I know it, but I have no idea how HE knows it when, as other people I think are town have pointed out, I haven't exactly been a huge protown influence on the game. It worries me that I'm there solely because I'm an outspoken townkmd reader.

iamusername seems to have sunk back into the depths after being summoned at the same time as me. Come back and say stuff please.

Ojanen - I wouldn't say I was fully caught up during the end of yesterday. I skimmed through the latest pages but I missed pages and didn't have a good understanding of the nuances involved. I saw enough to make me happy with my vote, but it wasn't a sterling effort. I did re-read from start to finish before posting content on D2 however.

Your spelling of the word 'ass' is perfect for the American spelling and pronunciation. In Australia (and I think Britain and some other places) the worse is spelt 'arse' because it's pronounced ARE-SE as opposed to AAA-SS. I think something about the Australian version makes it much less acceptable to say in general conversation, more gutteral. So it wasn't your spelling I was having a go at, it was my own dirty Australian ways.

[SerialClergyman]

Yos2 - the more I re-read our discussions, the more I agree with the XKCD post (also one of my favourite XKCDs). I see both of us sitting in dark rooms glaring at a monitor getting angry that we're being misrepresented. Perhaps what we have here, in such immortal words, is a failure to communicate.

I think your first point in that wallpost above makes that clear - I can't see how my point was unreasonable via my example from Zu Faul's vote on me. You can't see how my point applies to you because your wording was a) true via the language you used and b) not supposed to be a big deal because it was a tl:dr.

So meh - as I said in the post above, what else is left? Well, you've still got lurking I suppose, although I hope that the rolefishing argument is dead and buried. Either way - I certainly have a lot less so will

unvote

.

And I certainly didn't mean to insult you, was just trying to make a post that said 'you took a while to come on my bandwagon' be a bit more colourful and interesting. I actually had a whole schtick about you sending a telegram at one point (Serial is scummy STOP he must be lying STOP) but I deleted it due to possible-insultingness and not-funnyness, instead turning my nefarious activities to my hilarious hat-out-of-a-rabbit joke).

I'm off to the beach, because I'm in Australia and it's a gorgeous 28 degrees in winter. Will come back refreshed and with new insight.

[SerialClergyman]

So after having a look at my wagon at it's peak, I'm thinking there's probably some scum on there, and probably some scum who were prepared to jump on both. I've never got many scummy vibes from rofl, so I'm cool with him. Xyl wasn't on the BAB wagon. I'm going to keep running with the Yos2 is town theory. Zu wasn't on BAB's wagon either. That leaves elvis knits.

So I did a re-read of elvis and found it wasn't just my wagon she was on, but also iamusername and now VP as well. Seems to be a very go-with-the-flow list. However, I have some sympathy, as soemone who often finds himself on the day's wagon (last time I won as town I was on every wagon, whether the lynch was scum or town). Plus I know elvis' style is to be aggressive and to be aggressive one should vote, but I'm wondering when we're going to see something emerge from the aggression that isn't just relatively shallow bandwagon joining.

Speaking of people who have dropped off the radar as well, charter has made one post in D2 acknowledging he was still around and that's it.

iam - what are your thoughts on the possibility that Yos2 and I had a townie v townie ego-argument? I like most of your reads. I disagree on rofl-scum, especially after he explained his rolefishing point more. I'm curious that noone accused you of rolefishing for your mentioning of the same thing (rofl's assuredness of Yos2's towniness.) I certainly don't think it's rolefishing - I mention it because I don't like that people attacked me for it but not you. Also, Ojanen's comparison of me and rofl making the same 'unless you have knowledge' point reads as double town to me, despite the fact he used it as a scumtell. Just my gut - I'd be much happier to focus on Zu or VP than rofl at this time.

Thesp - you can check out lumberjack mafia which is my latest finished game that I started from the start for my distaste of the first day, or you could look at the fact that I've replaced into more games than I've started from the beginning at MS or the fact that of my 3 prods in about 8 games, 2 of them have been on the first day (one finished and town, the other ongoing). I'm just not into the whole 'jumping at shadows' first day stuff.

Ojanen - I'm into the VP wagon. I like that you're leading it, I like that iamusername approves of it. I haven't found anything in VP's play to latch onto as powerfully protown and in my experience with him as a player usually there is something. And I especially like the fact that he's getting quite a lot aobut the thread wrong (mixing up certain days, mentioning a rising tide that wasn't etc) I'll gladly lend my vote to this worthy cause.

vote VP Baltar

[SerialClergyman]

Oh - I also really don't like Ekim's reasons for getting on Baltar's case.

I think I can sum that up with the words 'interactions with me and iam'. So much repetitionto create 9 bullet points for 2 arguments.

Just a small thing, but it just felt wrong to me.

[SerialClergyman]

Hey Zu, what do you think of Yos2?

[SerialClergyman]

...am I writing my posts in Latin or something this game? It feels like everything I say this game is getting either misunderstood or misinterpreted by someone.

Noting for my eventual grand analysis of Yosarian2. Usually when

I

get that feeling it's because I'm scum and unconsciously making bullshit arguments.

So, first you attack me because you think I'm "too logical", now you're saying you think I'm "making bullshit arguments"? Don't those two things contradict each other?

If we're going to argue semantics, I didn't say you're making bullshit arguments.

/wrists at this game sometimes.

[SerialClergyman]

Xyl, why not zu faul as part of the group?

[SerialClergyman]

I agree, but I don't have to like it.

Elvis agreeing with bad rolefishing accusation is the second time it's happened. Why do you need someone else to post a hilarious fishing-related image before you confess to sharing the opinion that there was rolefishing going on?

Vp had his wagon grow dramatically yet he lived despite claiming vanilla, something bab couldn't do and something that was hotly debated in favour of lynching yesterday.

Where are all the shocked and outraged people at the failure to lynch vanilla claim today?

[SerialClergyman]

....

Maybe if he was vanilla? Aside from any scummy reasons?

Also I must be prophetic. Cue outraged vanilla lyncher

[SerialClergyman]

Obviously that was a simulpost directed at yos.

Speaking of which, where did you go? Would you like to explain what you meant a little more? Are we going to see your vote on the wagon any time soon?

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.

And zu seems like overeager scumhunter to me, where Elvis has twice said something like "I was thinking that too!"

if she was thinking it, why not say it? Don't like how the discussion went down.

I'm posting on my phone so this is my impression of events an it's difficult to check. Feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong.

[SerialClergyman]

serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon?

making up bad and repetitive reasons to join.

Fixed.

Someone joins the wagon I'm on for bad reasons, I point it out and I'm scummy? That shows I'm unsure about the situation, not that I have any knowledge of the wagon being good or bad.

Mind you, if it means Zu recognises me as town and rofl and elvis are the ones who don't, I think I'm ok with it.

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

Rofl - any comment on the rolefishing argument or are you leaving that one alone?

Elvis I'm fully aware of what a breadcrumb is. One thing that it usually is is subtle. But aside from that, if he is a PR breadcrumbing and he's called on it he's got the ability to say 'gut' or the like, in which case I won't be too convinced but there won't be a PR outed either. The only other option is leaving any odd declarations of suspicion or innocence completely unexplored, which is ridiculous. We need to have the right to challenge odd reads or changes of mind.

Finally, your question about the breadcrumb appears to be rolefishing in and of itself, under your definition. Are you trying to get the person to confirm or deny it was a breadcrumb?

Also this:

SC's 844 is strangely disagreeable. I'd be interested to see if he finds this rolefishing accusation still bad if he actually checked the context of the original zu comment.

Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.

Rofl, why is it scummy to vote Yos at this point?

See? Not scummy. You're just lucky I got here before try cry goes up that you're fishing for an investigation or the like from rofl and Zu found a big picutre of a tuna and Elvis came along and said she was thinking the same thing.

[SerialClergyman]

And that's good news, tajo, hope everything's ok.

[SerialClergyman]

In the other hand, Ive been asking Serial why he thinks KMD is town for years now. Serial?

Tajo - I don't see scum motivation for what KMD did. Earnt more suspicion for getting off a townie wagon (and he knew what he was in for), when just riding it to lynch he'd fade into the rest of the wagon who were doing the same thing. It was an odd decision, but real gut decisions often are.

[SerialClergyman]

:puppyeyes:

Instantly forgiven.

In other news,

Yos, you speak often about OMGUS but I'm sorry, you sometimes come across as quick to judge others for suspecting you too.

Yos2 can be charged with not just the OMGUS-related hypocrasy, but also the 'wait until someone else attacks' hypocrasy. I seem to remember his vote on me (also directly after I made a case on him) and his vote on Xyl happened after one or more other people attacked and voted first, much like he accused Xyl of doing.

More posts from elvis please.

[SerialClergyman]

What's the significance of the 'panicked unvote', Xyl?

[SerialClergyman]

Person who makes it is town.

I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.

I don't agree with this. Not just the point in general but also the specifics from elvis. Keep an open mind on her.

Aside from that, lets get this VP wagon done. I'm sure Yos2 will join due to his distaste at claiming vanilla.

[SerialClergyman]

To wit:

Why would a vanilla claim stop us from lynching bridges?

unvote; vote bridgesandbaloons

Hmmm one page bandwagon goes L-1? That was awesome.

unvote

[SerialClergyman]

In fact, while I'm rummaging around.. Replace BAB with VP and see if it's the same thought process

Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.

This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.

Elvis' philosophy seems to have changed dramatically on D2.

[SerialClergyman]

Rofl, could you do up your 3 most scummy and 3 most townie?

[SerialClergyman]

Are you making those reads based on individual play or which 'side' they sit on?

[SerialClergyman]

Your response is fair enough (apart from the random accusation calling me scum for what exactly?)

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

That's a scum explanation if I ever saw one. I don't remember him thinking like this in other games.

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

He also regularly uses the 'look for town and vote other people' style of play, to great effect (I was scum and it was damn annoying).

[SerialClergyman]

Me unvoting VP had nothing to do with his claim.

Well - that's kind of the problem. Last time this happened, the vanilla claim directly affected your actions. This time it didn't. You argued FOR a BAB lynch, and voted directly after his claim. Now VP does the SAME THING and rather than doing the same thing and pushing his wagon, you're actually pulling out of it. So there is a contradiction in your actions.

Now you might ahve overriding reasons for that decision, and the reasons you gave were OK, but that doesn't mean that it's surprising at least that your response was different.

Also, as I said:

I'd point out though that your logic of 'at worst vanilla, at best scum' isn't really affected by the points you made to get off his wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

I've also read the mind screw mafia he was nominated for, so I have some contrast. But my main point was elvis' point about Xyl's style doesn't really hold, given I have literally just finished a game where he did exactly the same thing as town.

Also, tbh I think your play has been much different from that game. That game you were so desperate to scumhunt and get scum lynched you got yourself NKed for being obvtown. This game, I see nothing of the sort.

But that's a minor thing, meta has never really been a big factor in my game.

[SerialClergyman]

Iam doesn't know how to talk to women, he comes from Surrey, so that's why he's getting ignored while elvis and I are having a nice conversation.

Well elvis, remember he was scummy enough for you to add your vote to the wagon. So in both situations, someone you found scummy was run up to a vanilla claim, and you reacted differently. As you say, there were differences, and I accept that, but I think the situations are more similar than you're acknowledging.

[SerialClergyman]

elvis - fair enough.

The speed of the wagon didn't bother me for the opposite reason it DID bother you.

These were the 7 that put him to L-1

ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm, elvis

I think iam, Ojanen, Xyl are town. I am town. Thesp I'm leaning town on, elvis I'm neutral (conflicted) on. eKim I'm neutral on, but I didn't like his reasons, so say that's one leaning scummy.

So judging by my reads that wagon is town-fuelled, and I'm happy to be on it.

And all of that ignores the fact I don't like how VP has been playing and think he's likely to be scum in a vacuum (ie without even looking at the wagons).

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not sure what your 1) is meant to say.. I didn't NK you, the other scum team did. I'm just saying, and anyone can check, that you were a town cop but were so bursting with pugilistic towniness that you couldn't even stay quiet and protect your role (you played awesome by the way, and had the other mafia gone for us like they should have you'd have stayed around for a while - not having a go at you or your playstyle)). However, that's in marked contrast to you now.

And I get the interest point is a possible explanation for your actions, and I get that interest can greatly affect your posting (look at my day 1 vs my emerald posting at the time), it just doesn't do much do discourage my vote on you. To borrow elvis' argument structure, worst case you're unmotivated, unhunting vanilla, best case you're scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Sup elvis.

Word on the street is that you don't like wagons that grow really quickly.

Why so Xylvoting?

[SerialClergyman]

Looked quick to me.. Do you think all the issues have been talked through?

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen another, I believe.

And me, kinda, although my reasons are slightly different.

It's 4am, I've got work tomorrow. I'm off. If Xyl gets lynched and scumflips, I'll eat VP Baltar's hat, settle down and devote my life to rofl and his uber townness.

[SerialClergyman]

Xyl, assume rofl is a town pr of some kind with role information on yos suggesting yostown. What changes in your take on the game?

[SerialClergyman]

How does it affect your scumlist?

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, and If that's not your current feeling about rofl, what is? A townie overselling a gut town read or a scumbuddy?

[SerialClergyman]

Well, it appears you've just been hammered, but I was trying to go somewhere with that line of questioning. In short, I think the rofl as town but not as pr is by far the least likely of the options and was going to go into why, except you've just departed from this mortal coil.

[SerialClergyman]

If xyl is scum, rofl is obvtown. If xyl is town, ojanen is just about my only solid town read.

[SerialClergyman]

Not going to clue us in, I suppose?

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, why is noone voting Baltar?

We just had a massive derailing of a wagon, running up Xyl who is now confirmed town led by roflcopter and yet when day breaks on D3 he's back to his kmd case and it's like nothing happened.

Voting for Pooky isn't the best course of action either - we have plenty to look at from the last couple of days, man up (or woman up) and pick your scum.

The two people we know for sure are town thanks to their flips were either on or instigating the Baltar wagon, and the push to switch to someone else was led by the scummiest group. Back on, kiddies.

vote VP Baltar

In other news, only one dead tonight. There was no flavour delinearating kills on D1, they were both killed. I had thought it's possible itshim was a vig kill and that theory is still possible, but it looks to me like there was a double kill on Ojanen last night from anti-town groups.

[SerialClergyman]

Simulposted, but ostensibly I agree with Pooky.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, the similarities are pretty shoddy. There wasn't much chance of me being lynched, I didn't claim, I was never at l-1 and the wagon on baltar had at it's root a strong case from a then obvtown and now confirmed gooncop player.

But say baltar was town. That would mean the scum would be perfectly happy wih his lynch, yet somehow momentum on his wagon gets sappd and a counter wagon on a now confirmed town gets pushed to a lynch. I think that's simply unlikely. The scum had no reason not to let vp get lynched if he was town. I'm pretty sure the switch to xyl was a derailing. I've done the same thing myself as scum.

But even if you ignore all that, what's wrong with a vp lynch? His alignment is crucial to analysing yesterday's wagon, he's been scummy this game, two protown players wanted him lynched yesterday, he claimed vanilla - I think he's a perfect lynch under almost any criteria, yes?

Iam - sorry, I'm posting on my phone but I nonetheless thould have checked the setup post.

[SerialClergyman]

SerialClergy's argument that we have to lynch VP Baltar to be able to analyze his wagon is bad. That's a bad reason to lynch a person. Whoever we lynch will give us information, whoever we lynch will give us the benefit of being able to analyze the wagon. It's a bad, bad reason to push a lynch on a person, solely for "information."

Bad summary of the argument, more like.

My argument to lynch Baltar is for ALL the reasons he should have been lynched yesterday (which you voted for, coincidentally)
PLUS the fact that it's hard to explain the shift away from him to a different townie if VP is town
PLUS the fact the wagon is now more sound due to the flips of those that were pushing it
PLUS the info we'll gain from it, and it specifically. Unlike a wagon on any other person, it is unique in that we have not just today's wagon to look at after a flip, but yesterdays wagon and the shift away from it towards Xyl.

Also, your own reasoning of 'scum or vanilla' STILL applies.

This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.

[SerialClergyman]

iam, if it's working, and the vote on Pooky is unnecessary, I suggest the VP wagon is the place where all the cool kids go to hang.

So as far as I can tell, rofl, yos2 and elvis all said that claiming vanilla wasn't worthwhile for Bab but are yet to do much about VP's vanilla claim. Worth noting. (despite howls of protest about slightly different circumstances etc)

It's also worth noting that one of the most likely roles for rofl to claim after his softclaiming bonanza yesterday just flipped and it wasn't him. I reject the idea that he's vanilla or otherwise protown without role info and was just absuing a softclaim to try to get people to not vote someone he had a good read on. So he's on my scumlist with Yos2.

Kmd has been looking less likely to be town since D1.

And I am still wondering about wagon speed (which made me think VP was likely town before).

This is true, except the people on it aren't the scummier people. Plus look at the scenario. The biggest wagon around that time was me with 5 votes, which was essentially a lurker wagon. It never really looked like getting a lynch. There was some movement on ekiM but again, there wasn't much momentum. So the town is scattered and noone really knows what to do. Then someone obviously protown makes a long and convincing case about someone and pressures people to join the wagon. That will always get votes. That's the best way I've got to explain it. But I think explaining how that wagon with that momentum and those people pushing it still failed to get a lynch if VP is town is a LOT harder.

Yos2's point about Ojanen getting killed is true (there must be town on the VP wagon, so scum can always kill someone on that wagon) for Ojanen, but not for Xyl. Either way, a few people used the players on the wagon as a reason not to vote VP, from memory, so having both of those two flip town should show their motivations were genuine.

The fact that he missed or ignored the whole 'everything that he was voted to l-1 for, his vanilla claim, the wagon shifting onto a confirmed town' etc etc reasons is less impressive.

I agree Ojenen almost certainly didn't have a guilty on Baltar.

I think there's almost no point voting charter until you know about VP. If the main reason to dislike charter is because how hard he was pushing for Xyl and derailing VP, that only makes sense for scumcharter if VP is scum. Otherwise he could have just hammered or kept quiet. So you might as well find out about VP first. I'm finding reading charter very hard.

[SerialClergyman]

No, VP's vanilla claim makes lynching him a lower risk, just like it did with bab. One difference, though, that now that we're down to 13 people with only 4 or 5 scum, it has become pretty crucial to lynch scum today; there is no longer such a thing as a safe lynch in this game.

Oh cool, so it was fine before but not now. That doesn't make me link scum you to scum baltar at all.

I can't believe you're fishing for ROFL's role, AGAIN.

Meh, time for us to grow up on this point. Rofl needs to be scruitinised and I don't care if people are saying I'm role fishing for doing it.

Not to mention I'd love to hear the scum motivation for me killing Ojanen if I was scum concerned with rofl's role. In fact, I'd love to hear the motivation for scum to kill Ojanen instead of rofl if rofl was a pro-town PR.

And even aside from THAT, it's hardly surprising that you don't want rofl's claimed role to have any scruitny, because as long as it doesn't you're safe from votes.

Putting aside for the moment the question of if rofl was breadcrumbing or not; there are a lot of possible roles listed in the mod's post that could tell if someone is innocent, AND GOON COP IS NOT ONE OF THEM. If you think he was breadcrumbing an innocent, then I can't imagine how you could have thought goon cop was "one of the most likely roles for him to claim"; a goon cop CAN'T GET an innocent result, just a guilty one (since a "not goon" result is clearly not an innocent result).

I never raised that question. What makes you bring up a possible breadcrumb?

But even if I did, that's the whole point of why a softclaim was crap and should have been dealt with yesterday. Now he can merrily claim something other than a goon cop if he gets targeted. While a goon cop can't clear someone, I'd definitely want to indicate that I had a non-goon result on someone were I that kind of cop. But a goon cop flip also makes things like an ACTUAL cop less likely to exist. So I stand by the fact that a goon cop flip makes it less likely rofl is a PR.

But either way - I don't really care what rofl claims his role is, he can never mention a softclaim ever again for all I care - he's in my books as scum, right under your name.

[SerialClergyman]

Yeah rofl, I need that lesson as much as people need to learn that asking someone why persuing your suspect is a scumtell isn't rolefishing. Zzz.

I want a full claim from rofl, because at the moment I absolutely don't believe him. If it takes a wagon to do it, (and it shouldn't given the circumstances) let's step up.

unvote, vote rofl

[SerialClergyman]

I think iamausername is trying to tell us something.

ROLEFISHER SCUM!!!11one.

[SerialClergyman]

Why should I?

If your implication is that they're both softclaiming, you've missed the point. rofl has been shutting down the case on Yos2 since it started, regularly pushes cases against the people I think are town and uses this softclaiming excuse to defend people like yourself, elvis and yos2. The whole game he's been shutting down real scumhunting via a cloak and dagger softclaim that he calls anyone (well, specifically me) scummy for challenging in any way. And then pushes wagons because of a mysterious web of scum that almost never changes when the lynch flips town. Both BAB and Xyl's townflips barely changed his read on the game at all.

iam, on the other hand, has been ballsy enough to attack rofl all through yesterday and today and is now prepared to expose himself to danger because he so strongly believes that rofl is scum (and because any other method of attempting to question rofl results in rolefishing accusations).

So it's a real case of light and dark for me. I see plenty of scum motivation for rofl's actions and not much for iam's actions.

[SerialClergyman]

Sitting here on the rofl wagon, enjoying the view of the hypocracy. This game just got so much more fun.

It's awfully inviting over here, by the way.

[SerialClergyman]

All I've ever wanted to do was attack targets that are scummy to me. I tried to attack Yos2 and VP but was told not to for reasons unknown and when I challenged it I was called scummy and a role fisher. Now the tables are turned and the same people who called me out for role fishing because I wanted to know what gave rofl the right to shut down my scumhunting on Yos2 are OPENLY DEMANDING a full claim from iam. Not to mention all the townies who jumped on the Xyl wagon yesterday because it was cool and are now carrying on with the same bad theories as if nothing happened.

I have a right to feel a little vindicated at this point.

And for the people who still don't get it - I never called anyone out as scummy for challenging iam's softclaim. I, on theo ther hand, was almost universally jumped on for challenging rofl. There's the hypocrasy.

I support iam full claiming, I think iam and rofl should both fullclaim and we'll work out who is telling the truth. I'd be very surprised if it was rofl who was more convincing.

[SerialClergyman]

The reason rofl should claim first is the motivation. I can't understand why a protown power role would softclaim to try to divert suspicion away from someone with one or two votes, even if they did have an innocent or similar. roflscum has more motivation to make those kinds of noises, especially if he's working up to a fakeclaim.

iam would have no reason to counter as scum, unless he thought it was important enough to kill rofl that he was prepared to get a 1:1 exchange, which seems unlikely. As I said before, the motivations point to this being iamtown.

[SerialClergyman]

Open hippo's mouth

[SerialClergyman]

Can't find anything particularly wrong with the claim, apart from nitpicking that it was al ittle weird that he investigated VP rather than someone he thought was scummy.

Rofl, did you have a specific breadcrumb saying who you were choosing for your N1 action? Yes or no is fine.

[SerialClergyman]

Interesting. I thought that this was a breadcrumb:

yos case: the timing of his bab vote makes him extremely unlikely to be a bridges scumpartner, but otherwise also a solid case.

i'd want to do my own investigation into yos-meta.

when bridges flips scum yos will fall neatly into the all-but-confirmed town pile along with several other players.

Hence why I found it suspicious yos2 brough up a breadcrumb when I had been talkign about softclaiming. (My theory ran that you had explained to your mafia group that you were fakeclaiming some form of cop and that you'd laid this breadcrumb)

Also this is why I said to Xyl at the end of yesterday that the chances of you being a townie who was overvaluaing a read was almost zero, you're either a PR or scum.

And also hence why Ojenen's flip of goon cop made me more suspicious, because I thought you would have to be claiming cop of some kind with the word investigate in your breadcrumb (not necessary, but you know, it makes a lot more sense than a tracker investigating). I know there could be another goon cop or a full cop or whatever, but the chances of having another goon cop or even a full cop were lessened for me. A vanilla cop does actually make sense though.

So saying the breadctrumb wasn't a breadcrumb changes my perceptions and your answer to the why VP question is fair. Your claim has actually been pretty solid.

(I really hope iam hasn't said something while I've been writing this ><)

[SerialClergyman]

Call me paranoid, but under what circumstances are you suggesting you could be wrong, iam (assuming you're telling the truth)? Was it just the roleblocker theory?

And while we're at it, Yos2, do you want to confirm you're vanilla? I imagine it goes without saying having read your posts, but you haven't stated it explicably.

[SerialClergyman]

I actually agree with Yos2 above. I think it's odd that the lynch is being directed to Yos2.

[SerialClergyman]

Wow, sorry about that, must have missed it.

[SerialClergyman]

Yos2, who are you believing more at this point?

I think the liklihood of Yos2 and rofl being lovers is less than the liklihood rofl would bet on yos2town being vanilla, personally. He may have also been planning to claim full cop rather than vanilla cop but felt hampered by the goon cop flip.

[SerialClergyman]

Iam, why the Pooky vote at the start of the day?

[SerialClergyman]

I agree with rofl on this. I find it really quite weird that you'd avocate a Yos2 lynch over a rofl lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Is it just me or did kmd's questions all get answered in the actual discussion?

a) because iam may have been roleblocked D1
b) because presumably the mod doesn't tell rofl he was jailed,
c) because on the off chance that a) is true, he wanted a vanilla lynched rather than a cop.
d) Could be true, but at least follow the discussion before you come to that conclusion.

You don'th ave to believe the answers above, you just have to acknowledge their possibility and judge them according to how likely you believe they are to be true.

I'm really conflicted because I think rofl had the better of the claims but I think iam's play has been more town (and even forcing the claim at all makes him unlikely to be scum.)

I'm still thinking.

iam, why not being up role info earlier when Xyl was about to be lynched and you had pretty damning evidence against rofl?

[SerialClergyman]

This:

3. In this post, rofl says that Claus has a solid case against Yos, but that Yos doesn't fit as a partner of BaB. So why, when BaB did NOT flip scum, has rofl gone ahead and started acting like he is confirmed town anyway? I think his post here was an attempt to placate Claus and push the BaB wagon through to mislynch, because he clearly had no intention of actually following up on this suspicion of Yos.

thats a very narrowminded view of what could possibly cause me to change my opinion between the end of day one and the beginning of day two

and this:

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

are the clearest examples, I think.

When asked about rofl's softclaims, these where the two that you quoted. They were both before Xyl's death.

[SerialClergyman]

I don't even have to know what a boondoggle is to know that I agree with elvis.

[SerialClergyman]

I don't understand why scumIAUN would force a claim when he did.

this is the votecount at the time.

Kmd4390: 2 (elvis_knits, roflcopter)
PookyTheMagicalBear: 2 (Kmd4390, populartajo)
roflcopter: 2 (iamausername, SerialClergyman)
SerialClergyman: 2 (VP Baltar, Yosarian2)
VP Baltar: 2 (ekiM, Thesp)
charter: 1 (zu_Faul)

So why fakeclaim at that point? Just for the hell of it to try and get a lynch up? He can't have been protecting himself or anyoneelse. No wagon had momentum. He's smart enough to know that even if everyone believed him he'd surely be the next lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

I like Ekim's post.

[SerialClergyman]

but did serial just bring up the possibility of mafialovers like it was a certainty?

I haven't looked, but no. IAUN refers to Yos and rofl being lovers as a reason for lynching Yos2, so you may have seen a post where I refer to that.

I do not like that iam forced a claim that he knew would not be definite even in the best of circumstances

I disagree with this bit. If I was a jailkeeper who had jailed rofl and he was breadcrumbing that hard he had an innocent result night 1, I would have claimed. I agree totally about the lynching Yos2 thing though. I'd be pushing for a rofl lynch.

The hider theory is interesting.. In the two games I've played with IAUN there's been a hider in one and a hider fakeclaim in the other, so he might ahve them on the brain..

[SerialClergyman]

I am also mulling it over and won't plant my vote tonight for sure. There's a lot to consider.

But why would you suggest lynching a third party?

I personally think if there is a mafia roleblocker who happened to block IAUN N1 and not rofl N2, the game is essentially gone. It's so ridiculous to pick that it's not worth worrying about. So I think we have to assume someone is lying. Provided there aren't 6 scum, we should have two lynches, so in the end, the correct decision is going to save us one mislynch.

I think in that situation you have to pick one of the sides and hope you guess right. A third party lynch doesn't make much sense to me.

[SerialClergyman]

Ekim wins an internet for having some really solid observations.

I actually had the opposite reaction to you. Of the claims, they've both made sense and been possible (minus a few questions that are dicey - why iam didn't claim earlier and why rofl went to such lengths to protect VP) but iam has this silly thing about Yos2, and you have to adjust your reaction because he had the advantage of the second claim and could thus tailor his claim.

But that goes against my iam town rofl suspicious read all game, and it goes against iam having no reason to counterclaim as scum.

So I'm in the same dillema from a different angle.

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP: The majority of that post was addressing elvis, and it should read why rofl went to such lengths to protect yos2.

[SerialClergyman]

I wanted to have a lot of ceremony about this but I'm voting rofl already.

For me it comes down to the benefit of the lynch coupled with my read. Are VP Baltar, Yos2 and rofl all town? gut has said no all game, I see no overwhelming reason to go against it now. And when all is said and done, rofl's flip gives us either two confirmed innocent vanillas (which is better for causing NK angst amongst scum than PRs) or it gives us 2 or possibly 3 scum if lovers are involved.

Also, if VP is town why has he just posted the odd tiny post? I have had my mind BLOWN from these claims and all of the quiet people earn my suspicion.

confirm vote roflcopter

[SerialClergyman]

I don't get that at all.

To my mind you're opening yourself up for a townflip on a third party and then we're in a lylo situation with a 50/50. At least if we get rofl or iam wrong, we'll then have a scum lynch and a lot of info.

And the only reason you wouldn't is if there was a mafia roleblcoker (who would have unlimited shots) who would have blocked IAUN N1 and noone N2. Surely that's hugely unlikely.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm not standing up for Pooky or charter - it's possible either would flip town or scum. But when you have a 1/2 chance and 2 chances, I don't know why you wouldn't take it when the alternative is guessing on the rest.

True, they could have blocked someone else except a) noone else has claimed being blocked, b) roflcopter wasn't blocked despite being an obvious PR to scum. So if you're a roleblocker, and for some reason decide to block IAUN, then N2 you choose not to kill rofl for some reason - maybe fear of protects. but why wouldn't you block him?? Zero reason I can think of.

I can't imagine what a townpooky or towncharter flip would bring us tomorrow. Especially compared to the obvious bountiful info that, say, a rofl flip (scum or town) would give us.

[SerialClergyman]

I can't agree. Unless you find a way around the roleblocker issue, a lynch of rofl or iam gives us a surefire scum lynch either today or tomorrow, plus a clusterfuck of info. Taking a stab at a random other play isn't worth it, imo.

[SerialClergyman]

If you want to keep insinuating that I'm defending Pooky, you might as well argue the same about charter when I argued against that yesterday. I'm trying to avoid the argument about who the third party is because then we lose sight of the point of what we're trying to discuss. No matter who it is we can't be as sure about it as we would about rofl and IAUN.

(I think a roleblock of IAAU on N1 is plausible, though unlikely.)

I think you're missing the point - EVEN IF there was a roleblock on IAUN (which is plausible but unlikely), there would ALSO have to be a roleblock on someone other than rofl on night two, which makes no sense if rofl is town and the scum knew his softclaiming was legit.

[SerialClergyman]

Ah - there's our fundamental minunderstanding, I think.

I absolutely did, iam had two good quotes about it earlier. And elvis asked me if I knew what a breadcrumb was. And Xyl and I were talking about it jsut before his death, where I said rofl is either a PR or scum. My suspicion of the poll would be that most, like me, thought he was softclaiming before last night.

[SerialClergyman]

VP - you're so scum imo.

But leaving that aside, explain to me why rofl wasnt' roleblocked N2. As soon as I get a good answer for that I'll entertain a third party lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Two

[SerialClergyman]

And you've never seen him play like this? Even in Emerald City he played like this to some extent (though I believe Mastin altered several players' styles in that game).

Did you think he had a guilty on Mastin in that game when he declaratively said he was scum from the start?

I know rofl's style, but my read on him isn't based on his style (although I see subtle differences.) Are you asking me why I find him scummy or are you asking me whether I thought his confidence meant he was softclaiming?

[SerialClergyman]

Hey, I just had another look at your latest post, yos2, and I'm not liking what you're writing.

You've made it very clear that you think iam is scummy for suggesting lynching you and not rofl.

But you also disagreed with me when I said that on the off chance a roleblocket blocked IAUN N1 and then didn't block rofl N2, the game is essentially done.

These sentiments go against each other. You seem to be arguing for the lynch of a third party, provided that third party isn't you, but IAUN is scummy for suggesting you as a third party lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Iamusername is scummy for suggesting lynching me instead of rofl, because me and rofl could both be town, I could be town and rofl could be scum, but

rofl and me could not both be scum

I can't be scum if rofl is town; if rofl is town, then I must be as well.

I'm going to take a liberty and edit because I think this is what you meant to say - clearly you could both be scum.

There is no possible situation where lynching me and not rofl is a good idea.

Well - this doesn't follow from what you've written. If we were going to lynch one of you and there was some decent chance both of you were town, lynching the claimed vanilla over the claimed cop is a definite advantage.

I rejected that reasoning because I think we aren't going to learn enough from a Yos2 lynch to lynch rofl the next day, if Yos2 flipped town I'd definitely be voting IAUN the next day. (cue argument about mafia roleblocker)

But if you're in favour of a third party lynch, a Yos2 lynch is a possibility, I think.

[SerialClergyman]

Zu is making me go against a Xyl townread, and Elvis is withering my stand against a Xyl townread.

That was a good point, elvis.

[SerialClergyman]

a) you hammered in the middle of a discussion I was having with Xyl.
b) Your reaction to the claims is underwhelming for something that has totally blown the minds of people I think are town and forces a heavy decision.
c) You are commiting the same problem I pointed out with Yos2. I don't know how you can denounce a Yos2 lynch and in the same breath say you'd prefer to lynch charter or pooky. Either you feel that we should target one of rofl or iam or you don't, I don't like this middle ground that says a Yos2 lynch would be ridiculous but a charter/pooky lynch, which gives us LESS info about the situation at hand, is good.

[SerialClergyman]

a) you hammered in the middle of a discussion I was having with Xyl.
b) Your reaction to the claims is underwhelming for something that has totally blown the minds of people I think are town and forces a heavy decision.
c) You are commiting the same problem I pointed out with Yos2. I don't know how you can denounce a Yos2 lynch and in the same breath say you'd prefer to lynch charter or pooky. Either you feel that we should target one of rofl or iam or you don't, I don't like this middle ground that says a Yos2 lynch would be ridiculous but a charter/pooky lynch, which gives us LESS info about the situation at hand, is good.

[SerialClergyman]

Charter went from fourth to sixth. Def scum IMHO. I am moving house for a few days with no net access, so I'm limited with what I can post. If you don't see me too much over the next couple of days that's why.

[SerialClergyman]

Relax, I was joking.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, looking back I see how that's confusing. In your last post when listing points you missed out "fifthly". That was all.

[SerialClergyman]

New place is great, still no net. Vla for another couple of days, sorry guys!

[SerialClergyman]

I'm catching up with the posts. My net access is still intermittent.

I hate the hider claim because I was more and more happy with my position on rofl. I don't see scum fakeclaiming unless it's lylo.

I am starting to think a massclaim is in order. We already have a number of claimed roles, it's close to lylo and we might be able to break the setup if we coordinate night choices.

I'm going to re-read as much as I can tonight, given many of the arguments I was forming were trumped by tajo's claim.

[SerialClergyman]

Zu, what do you think lynching charter would achieve?

[SerialClergyman]

Do you believe the hider claim?

[SerialClergyman]

We need to mass claim. We have outed heaps of roles, we should lock scum into fakeclaims now. I'm happy to go first.

Aside from that, I hesitate on a pooky lynch because there is too much support for it and pooky is a soft target. I can't think of a much better choice. If kmd has a bullet then he can check the hider claim, but if not we need info badly.

[SerialClergyman]

I also don't like that Tajo didn't crumb his next hide. That's the point of the role.

[SerialClergyman]

Double also - rofl, with kmd also now confirmed town, who is scum?

[SerialClergyman]

No lynch could be a good option.

[SerialClergyman]

One more hide and one more investigation is very powerful.

It's getting harder and harder for them to fake results. Claim time! More support from the unclaimed so we can do this in time, please.

[SerialClergyman]

Of the eight that rofl an vp say have to have all of the scum, kmd is confirmed unless there's a counter and I know I'm town, so to believe them there can be only one town out of pooky, zu, iam, ekim, thesp and Elvis. I just think that's hugely unlikely.

I wish I had proper access, writing on a phone is
really restrictive.

I have been trying to work out night actions but it feels like I'm playing a jigsaw without all the pieces.

Can't see much wrong with a massclaim. The scum have plenty of roles to pick from no matter who is telling the truth. No lynch I'm still muling over. For those who believe rofl and iam, I'd say no lynch is a must.

I'm still doubting rofl and Tajo.

[SerialClergyman]

No lynch means Tajo can hide without fearing losing us the game. Tajo cannot be roleblocked from doing this. Without a no lynch, if Tajo hides on scum we lose, assuming five scum.

There are also a limited amount of people that scum can kill without giving the town a lot of info.

[SerialClergyman]

My bad, meant Tajo.

[SerialClergyman]

In fact, for that to be strictly true, only Tajo is claiming all five must be innocent.

[SerialClergyman]

Tajo, i said I hated it because I was just finally feeling happy about my position when your claim added much more to doubt and think about.

I am doubtful for different and explained reasons.

A direct consequence of your claim is that only one of ekim, Elvis, zu, pooky, iam and thesp is town. That's hard to swallow.

I am also yet to see a breadcrumb you gave about who you were GOING to hide with, a piece of information pretty vital to the town if you hide with scum and flip hider.

Finally, I don't like that you waited that long to claim. If you had claimed directly after Ian, knowing you could clear rofl and clear enough people to come close to breaking the setup, that's one thing. But you didn't, you waited til he was almost lynched.

And double finally, the wagons make more sense if you are lying.

[SerialClergyman]

Elvis, I think there is a protective role on balance, but you know how we could find out? Mass claim!

More importantly, if Tajo dies and flips town, we have just got to find the townie out of the listabove. If there is a role blocker and all the claims are true, I can tell you the scum team, assuming five members.

We need to care about getting max info for minimum deaths, not keeping the prs alive.

[SerialClergyman]

Also somebody unvote pooky till we've finished talking please

[SerialClergyman]

In fact, I just convinced myself. I do not believe Tajo. I think it's time to summon the minimals and lynch him.

I just gave the reasons why I don't believe him, it doesn't ring true. I don't think the scum team are in those six people, I don't believe he waited for so long to claim, I dont understand why he'd fos charter or not go after iam like a rabid dog. I don't think that rofl, yos, vp, charter and him are all town.


And if the worst happens, I think lynching him if he's town is not the end of the world, it confirms four other players and means we just have to pick out the townie from the six mentioned above.

But it won't, I think. Tajo is lying.

[]unvote rofl, vote Tajo[/b]

[SerialClergyman]

Time to woman up, then. It's the right lynch.

Remember charter and vp could be innocent people used to support fakeclaims. So it's not THAT intricate.

Also remember if rofl and Tajo are lying we still haves goon cop, secret order, jailkeeper and any other roles in the unclaimed group.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, and vig.

I don't have a good answer, Elvis, aside from at the time of claiming, all except the jailkeeper were known, so that means they didn't hve many real prs to dodge.

[SerialClergyman]

It's hard to do rags on this phone, dammit.

unvote rofl, vote Tajo

[SerialClergyman]

No role based evidence, but I just don't think so. I have town reads on quite a few of that list and the wagons back me. Not to mention scum reads on some of those you are saying have to be innocent.

Not breadcrumbing your next hide loses us a confirmed scum if you hide with one. I don't think a player of your quality would let that happen. It doesn't have to be hugely obvious, as soon as we see your flip you'll have the whole town rushing to see which scum you hid under.

And I just don't see your explanation of your claim convincing. You could hve backed rofl as soon as iam claimed but waiting till he was almost lynched is scummy. So is pushing the lynch to the popular whipping boys, kmd and pooky instead of going after iam.

[SerialClergyman]

What prevented me from saying this sooner is both that I needed time to consider your claim and the technological constraints I'm having at the moment.

[SerialClergyman]

Your power is no longer particularly useful if you are town. If you use it and get yourself killed youll put the town in danger of losing the game. Your flip is much more useful to the town than your role, if you are town.

[SerialClergyman]

Where did everyone go?

[SerialClergyman]

Pooky, pay attention to the last page ffs. Lynching Tajo 100% confirms either rofl scum or four town, with lots of info afterwards. What do YOU think about tajos claim?

[SerialClergyman]

Rofl, you are correct, Tajo scum flip doesn't confirm you scum. My bad.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, sure, whatever. Let's lynch Tajo then after his flip we can work out whether your suspicions about me buzzing him were right.

[SerialClergyman]

When I am asked why am I so sure there are five scum after trying to qualify it with an "assuming five scum" every single time but forgot ONCE cos I'm still typing on my phone, I want to /wrists.

Having Tajo hide with someone protected by iam while rofl targets etc etc may work if there wee any chance of everyones claim being true, which is rubbish.

I'm going to kick off the mass claim because it's important to the discussion and the night choices. I am a bodyguard. I can protect people but I die if successful. I haven't used it yet. This means that in the group of eight that must contain all scum if Tajo is telling the truth, kmd is vig town and I am confirmable town. That still leaves only six people to fit the whole scumteam in.

Lynch Tajo. If he is telling the truth, we have got almost all the scum worked out. If he's lying, as I'm pretty sure he is, we can get over this red herring and scumhunt properly.

Also, as I said, his night action is now anti town to use if he's town because every hide means an extra chance for town to die. So we lose nothing with his role.

[SerialClergyman]

And when he doesn't die? His flip is important.

[SerialClergyman]

Wait a second.

Restless hider does NOT mean he has to hide every night.

It means he can't hide with the same person each night.

I just wrote a whole spiel about why it was hugely imperative we should lynch Tajo because otherwise as soon as we missed and hit town, he had to be successful every night or we'd lose the game (assuming 5 scum). But that's not true because he does have the option not to hide.

But for people who thought he had to hidce every night, how could you argue lynching anyone but tajo was a good idea? Zzz

Aside from all that, I still a) don't believe tajo, b) think his flip is vitally important and c) don't think we're losing much if he goes.

The only other option I'd entertain is a nolynch with tajo hiding somewhere and kmd targetting him. We'd need confirmation that kmd has a bullet left.

But that option means if tajo is scum and the scum have a blocker we've essentially lost, because the blocker blocks kmd and we as town would have to assume tajo cleared.

What if tajo picks one of the people unconfirmed in his eyes and says specificaly who he will hide with? And kmd shoots tajo? If tajo is telling the truth, the worst case scenario is mafia shoot his target who happens to be one of the few town in that group. Then the rest of the town know tajo is town and was telling the truth, we've eliminated oneo f the suspects, and we basically have the scum team mapped out (if you believe my claim. If not, we just keep lynching people other than me until I get a successful protect and confirm myself).

if towntajo picks a scum to hide behind, he dies and is confirmed, but we have a confirmed scum and a (now confirmed) rofl investigation (I can protect rofl and make sure he's alive tomorrow).

If Tajo is scum, he gets shot unless there's a blocker who blocks kmd. If that happens, and scumtajo lives, we're pretty boned, because he'll live, claim that whoever he hid behind is innocent and we'll have no way of disproving it.

Ugh.

My favourite option by far is still to lynch tajo. If he's tellign the truth, I can protect rofl and we'll at least get a yes or no on pooky. And even if he's telling the truth and there's a different blocker out there, we'll still have a very narrow group of people where all the scum are. If he's scum, then kmd is free to fire on whoever he wants tonight, iam can either jail rofl or not to test whether rofl gets a claim tomorrow, we've got good leads to go on tomorrow and we aren't nearly as screwed as if there's a blocker and tajo is scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Well, you missed that tajo's claim is dicey, the wagons don't show any evidence for that being true and there are 6 people of which you have 4 or 5 scum, so even if pooky flips town it's possible tajo is telling the truth. (you don't say why iam can't be scum, which is quitel ikely if tajo is telliung the truth.)

Yes, I know I have to have a successful protect. If tajo is telling the truth, I'm sure I'll be able to echange my death for one of the confirmedf innocents. That's another reason why we need to be sure about tajo.

[SerialClergyman]

We can also do kmd shoots iam who jails kmd if that helps anyone..

[SerialClergyman]

I agree with Elvis. I wish everyone would claim.

Barring that, if Tajo townflips, I'll protect rofl who will investigate pooky. Kmd shouldn't fire, Ian should jail kmd.

If Tajo scumflips, I'd suggest kmd fire away, I'll protect kmd, rofl can investigate pooky and maybe Ian jail rofl? We'd lose rofls investigation if town but we'd gain the info on isms role. Not sure about that bit.


Comments welcome, but that is a lot of info for us, I think.

[SerialClergyman]

Actually, if Tajo scumflips I don't want rofl to get the benefit of saying he lost his investigation to a jailing. Maybe Iam shouldn't jail rofl on a Tajo scumflips.

[SerialClergyman]

Zu, who would you want kmd to shoot? I'm not averse to that plan. They could target each other but a scum blocker makes that plan disasterous.

Wait - unless I protect kmd too. Yeah, that will be a jail and a bodyguard, so even if there is a blocker kmd can't die. And kmd can target Iam. I think that would work.

Anyone who hasn't claimed should, IMO. Elvis has said all the right things so far

zu, if you like the plan, vote Tajo.

[SerialClergyman]

Elvis - a scum roleblock on who? In my plan above there aren't too many problematic blocks, plus well almost certainly know for sure there is a blocker out there, which is useful enough.

[SerialClergyman]

Elvis - lynching iam is terrible. If he flips town, rofl could be scum with no blocker in the game.

If kmd shoots Ian and gets double protected, if iam dies and flips town we know for sure there is a blocker.

So if Tajo flips scum, I think that is the plan.

If Tajo flips town, we can't risk kmd hitting town and I am protecting rofl who would then be confirmed vanilla cop.

Seriously, Tajo has to be the lynch. More Tajo votes guys. Deadline approaches.

[SerialClergyman]

Elvis, a bodyguard risks himself, a known protown weak power role for someone unknown. It only seems a good deal to me if I'm confident the person I'm protecting is more powerful and more protown than me.

But suspicion of me is relatively irrelevent, I'll be confirmed as soon as I get a protect off.

[SerialClergyman]

Charter, Tajo lynch. Even if Tajo is town
it sets us up for a win. If he's scum, it's a good start.

More Tajo votes.

[SerialClergyman]

How can you possibly ignore everything weve talked about with Tajo and suggest an Elvis lynch?? Ugh.

Also - with language that strong, where's the vote? Looks to me like charter is trying to push on Elvis while staying on the pooky wagon just in case it gets up.

[SerialClergyman]

I give up. It's 230, I'm still typing on my bloody phone trying to deal with this crap.

Iam - if Tajo is town, I am TELLING rofl to investigate pooky. Why the fuck would I do that as pookys partner? Not to mention I am a confirmable role.

I am tryin to lynch scum, I think Tajo will flip scum but even if he doesn't, well have four confirmed players including rofl who can investigate under my protection. We will have a damn good shot at winning.

Not knowing tajos alignment will fuck us and I'm tired of crapping on about it bent over this 2.5 inch fucking screen. I am going to bed.

[SerialClergyman]

Tajos role isn't consistent with behaviour because he didn't breadcrumb his hide before he did it. That is bad hider play.

Rofl will be protected tonight on a Tajo town flip. But even
if he dies, we will have FOUR confirmed town and me as a semiconfirmable role. So yes we'd be in a damn strong position.

[SerialClergyman]

No, the only way to confirm me is
to get me a successful protect. If Tajo townflips you can assume I'm telling the truth and I'll protect a confirmed each night. I should get a protect sooner or later.

[SerialClergyman]

Because if you were town you'd hve a choice of six players of which a likely five are scum, so it'd be worth waiting to lynch me for a couple of days to see if I can hit the protect. Are you even thinking at all, or is my read on you fucked ??

[SerialClergyman]

I'm also telling you I'm a bodyguard who is protecting rofl. Are
you suggesting my scum plan is to kill the person I'm protecting?? I guess I could
claim I was roleblocked but it's not exactly an easy path to tread if I were scum, is it?

[SerialClergyman]

Yos, that last comment doesn't make any sense. How are the scum going to kill a hider and then the town mislynch someone the hider breadcrumbed? If the scum killed the hider, they had to have killed the hider target.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok. We have three days. I'm actually going to go to bed. Sorry for all the swearing.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, I return after sleep. Sorry for some of those posts.

I actually went through the scenario charter is describing. It works ok if Tajo is town (remember rofl will live and get an investigation if the scum need to roleblock and kill whoever Tajo hides with). So with Tajo confirmed, one of the seven confirmed and a now confirmed investigation, we'd actually have broken the game.

If the scum just kill rofl or one of the non-confirmed on a Tajo townflips, then it works out ok. Tajo dies and we know one scum from the group.

However, if tajo is scum or hides behind town we won't be able to know, and open ourselves up to a loss. In fact, were likely to end up with a tough decision if Tajo lives.

I think a Tajo lynch gives us a better shot by a fair way. If Tajo is town and doesn't find scum under charters system, he'd be lynched and we lose the game.

If he's scum, he lives for another day and draws all the protective roles so they can kill rofl or kmd tonight.

The only way a no lynch is arguably better than a Tajo lynch is if Tajo was telling the truth and dies on scum tonight. And even then we lose rofl or kmd for the
sake of having one confirmed scum in a group teeming with scum.

With a Tajo lynch and town flip, both power roles cop and vig will be protected, and if there is no blocker we will have an investigation on a claimed vanilla. So even in the best case scenario for a no lynch, a Tajo lynch is still very similar for town. Plus there is no chance town Tajo hides behind town and loses us the game whn he's lynched and if Tajo is scum it's much better to lynch tonight.

I went over this in detail before, but hopefully the above is more clear. Tajo is absolutely the best lynch today.

[SerialClergyman]

I think charter pretty much nailed it. We can start with pooky or zu then ekim who venges someone. Hopefully I protect and confirm myself and it's all fun from there. Cone on, more Tajo votes please. Deadline in two days.

[SerialClergyman]

If there is a genuine struggle there for anyone, realize this:

Tajo isn't just claiming he is town, he's claiming he, charter, rofl, yos and vp are ALL town. It's
not just a question of whether you think Tajo is scum, it's a question of whether you think ANY of those people are scum.

Yos asks me if I KNOW that I'm getting lynched on a rofl flip and I'm not sure how to reply. I will protect him if Tajo is lynched and flips innocent. That's about it from this perspective.

Lynch Tajo. I can't tell who the town on that wagon is, but switch, dammit.

[SerialClergyman]

If we mislynch anyone, Tajo effectively loses his power because using it would put the town at risk. So his power, if town, is now much weaker.

If you want to lynch scum today, consider that the combined liklihood of any of the five that Tajo claim are scum is higher than the liklihood of pooky being scum.

[SerialClergyman]

Vp, in your list above you put charter in unconfirmed when he is actually confirmed on a Tajo townflip

[SerialClergyman]

You also put kmd in unconfirmed and with no counter, he's pretty confirmed as vig. So actually your numbers should be substantially different.

[SerialClergyman]

charter, I'm loving your style, but why so heavily behind a tajo lynch now compared to a couple of days ago when you were arguing against it? In fact, I seem to remember your vote for tajo was along the lines of 'fuck it, vote tajo'..

Yos2 - the logic 'I should ignore the scumminess of Yos2, rofl, charter, VP and declare them all town if I think tajo is town' is much worse than 'I should judge whether tajo is town based on whether I think it's likely that he and all the people he says must be town are town'.

VP - did you see my edits to your numbers? Did that help your decision making? Your unvote makes me sad and confused.

pooky - you just won 'most useless post' award.

[SerialClergyman]

By the way, assuming 5 scum, if you believe tajo is town, you also believe there's at least one scum on the non-tajo wagon at the moment, which, if tajo is town, is pretty stupid.

iam - do you now believe that it's more likely that there's a blocker who blocked you N1 and not rofl N2 than rofl (and by extension tajo) is scum?

[SerialClergyman]

If we lynch pooky and he's scum, we have EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF WIGGLE ROOM as we do now.

Yes, yos2, it is. When it's close to lylo and someone claims and tells me that the people I find scummiest in the game are now confirmed, and I should vote for people I think are probably town, that's a reason to doubt them irregardless of their own personal scumminess so far.

[SerialClergyman]

Wait, sorry to be obtuse, but I don't follow charter. Why must there be a blocker if rofl is scum and iam is town? The only reason we think there may be a blocker is that if iam and rofl are both town, a blocker would have had to block iam's N1 jailing. (and also blocked someone other than rofl N2)

If rofl is scum, there wouldn't need to be a blocker because he would be lying about the investigation.

[SerialClergyman]

I'll take dumb but right. <3

[SerialClergyman]

Hell yeah, baby. Totally picked that fake claim.

I have a right to feel a little vindicated at this point.

Ekim is town, only person besides me who questioned the claim and said he actively thought tajo was scum. That and his claim (vengeful townie) mean he's essentially confirmed.

charter is either town or worth keeping around till lylo. In a 3-man lylo he can activate his treestump ability and then vote, so he essentially confirms himself and then it's a 50/50 for the lynch.

elvis reads as town recently due to what I feel was a genuine discussion during the iam/rofl situation. I don't like the confidence about the 'panicky claim' displayed above given yesterday she wasn't prepared to say tajo was scummy, but whatever, that's probably some well-deserved excitement at being on the right wagon.

VP was on the right wagon, but I really don't like his unvote at the end. It's true he could have hammered Pooky and didn't, but on the other hand, a wagon switch would have been pretty obvious at that stage. Plus I'm pretty sure the Xyl wagon was scum driven. I view him as neutral.

Rofl should be scum, I think. It's possible he's not, but it makes much more sense to me that tajo fakeclaimed to save him (and if not, there must be a blocker somewhere who blocked iam etc etc) I'd like to hear his investigation result before we lynch though.

Yos2 has either been squarely wrong all game or he's scum. Also, rofl had to guess he was vanilla town if rofl is scum. At this point, i'm prepared to say if rofl is scum, yos is scum.

KMD is town barring some strange counterclaim. KMD, did you shoot last night?

The scum almost certainly don't have a roleblocker, or they would have killed kmd. I think they did us a favour killing iam - I could see him as town thinking I'm scum because I did push hard in two games he was in to lynch someone to save a buddy, but I thought even with that evidence he'd see that tajo's lynch was the best one. Anyway - he was town, and is now confirmed, which is much better than losing charter or kmd or me.

Zu is either a townie who has been utterly lost all game or is scum.

Pooky is probably town. As I said, noone was prepared to defend him (aside from me) and I'd be surprised if the wagons yesterday were on two scum. He was a good scapegoat lynch.

Thesp I'm confused on. I had a pro-town read but his actions yesterday were dicey. Leave on the backburner for me.

So - today's action is relatively simple, get rofl's investigation then lynch him.

[SerialClergyman]

Also, kmd, did you shoot?

If we have 11 people, I think we have a good enough idea aobut the town makeup that we don't need a vig, unless we hit something like scum lovers. If the vig misses then we lose our mislynch. If there are 5 scum we get one mislynch, and I think we have enough to be able to knock them out, especially if rofl and yos2 go to plan and are scum. (incidentally, after rofl's investigation, even if he is town we will have a LOT of confirmeds at that point.)

For reference, my scumlist

Scum:
rofl
yos2


Leaning Scum
Zu

Neutral
VP
Thesp

Leaning town
Pooky
Elvis


Town or effectively town
SerialClergyman
charter
ekim
kmd

[SerialClergyman]

I'm pretty sure too, don't worry. But I can't say literally zero when it's not literally zero

[SerialClergyman]

*twitch*

[SerialClergyman]

Hmm..

Just thinking about this, the only other thing apart from possible mafia lovers is a traintor/godfather reltationship. It's possible that rofl's softclaiming was designed to show the scumteam that he is a traitor (ie, yos2 is the godfather, the only person in the scum team revealed to rofl) as well as protect yos2 (because I think traitor dies on godfather death.

If that theory is correct the best lynch is Yos2 because that'll knock them both off in one lynch, as opposed to having to wait for both of them.

But then it's all a little risky - if yos flips vanilla we don't know where we stand on rofl. If rofl flips vanilla cop, we have 2 (or 3 if we get his latest investigation) confirmed. I think possibly now is the time to go the safe option and hit rofl.

If we got kmd to shoot Yos2 on a rofl scumflip, that's essentially the next lynch anyway, so even if it hits town we'd be barely worse off than we would have been had we lynched him the next day, and if he hits we'llh ave some wiggle room to get a third shot from kmd or lynch ekim and get him to venge someone. Meh - again, that's all a bit complicated and depends on a few variables.

Never mind, just thinking everything through

[SerialClergyman]

My feeling is that there isn't a blocker. I think if there was, they wouldh ave blocked me and killed kmd.

Mind you, they could have blocked kmd and killed whoever they wanted, but a confirmed town vig vs a unconfirmed (and on the wrong wagon) jailkeeper?

But ostensibly I agree there isn't much point in rocking the boat.

[SerialClergyman]

Cheers kmd. I'll leave it up to you if you want to shoot yos2 if rofl scumflips. If unsuccessful we lose our mislynch (it goes to 4 scum out of 10) but if successful it goes to 3 scum out of 10 and you get another shot with impunity.

What's with all the votes?

He's already l-2. Just relax and let the man give his investigation. Noone gets town points for being on the rofl wagon.

[SerialClergyman]

I'm really starting to think Yos is the Godfather.

Yes. I think I convinced myself again.

But honestly, I don't see too much of a reason to risk it and vote him over rofl (given that if town, rofl will potentially give three results where Yos2 would give none.)

The point about the wagon on VP is what I've been saying for a while - it's a very odd wagon if vp is town when viewed in the light of the Xyl lynch.
That and I've had a scum read on VP all game.

elvis, what makes you suspect zu and thesp?

[SerialClergyman]

Mmm.

If rofl is town the lynch of yos would be disasterous.

A scum 2-for-1 doesn't actually give us another lynch, it gives kmd the ability to shoot at night, and if he hits, we get another lynch and if he misses we're back to the position we're in now. Either that or it gives us the ability to lynch ekim and have him venge someone. without risking losing a lynch.

I think we need kmd to confirm at least one shot before we think about lynching yos.

In a best case scenario, say it goes kill yos, rofl dies, zufaul gets shot (all scum) and I die at night.
That means we'd have 1 scum in elvis, charter, ekim, kmd, thesp, kmd and VP
kmd confirmed, ekim close to confirmed, charter able to treestump in lylo means it's almost an auto-win.

In the worst case scenario we're lylo for 3 lynches including an unconfirmed rofl.

Needs more thinking.

[SerialClergyman]

Does anyone object to kmd revealing how many shots he has left? I think it might be relevent.

If he has 2+ shots left, I think I like lynching rofl, then kmd shooting yos2, then kmd shooting someone else the next night. He should be alive (my protect).

If he has one shot and one shot only left, I might prefer the Yos lynch. That'd give us a chance at a 2-fer today then the vig makes a real impact (if he hits, he buys us another mislynch, if he misses we don't lose anything.

If he has no shots left, back to rofl and using scumhunting to finish the job off.

[SerialClergyman]

charter, while I agree with you, I think we rolled the dice a bit lynching tajo and it feels a bit like we're doubling up voting yos. I'm confident that rofl and yos are scum, but I don't think the risk vs reward pays out - if yos is innocent we're in real trouble.

Taking the same list, if rofl is scum and not a lover and I get NKed, we'll have say 3 scum to find in:

charter

ekim

elvis

kmd

pooky
thesp
VP

Yos2

Zu

So if you assume Yos2 and Zu are scum, then we've got one more to weed out. If kmd has 2 bullets he can afford to miss tonight and tomorrow night and then (say he hit thesp tonight and pooky tomorrow, so it goes lynch roflscum, I and thesp die then tomorrow lynch yosscum and kmd + pooky die).

we'd have a list that looks like

charter

ekim

elvis
VP

Zu

Which means Zu gets lynched, ekim or charter are NKed, then tomorrow, if charter is alive he treestumps to prove his own towniness and we have to choose between elvis and VP, and if ekim is alive he's lynched to prove his towniness and then venges either VP or elvis.

So essentially, provided there is no mafia roleblocker and kmd has 2 bullets, we get to pick 3 out of 4 of elvis, vp, thesp and pooky to kill for the win.

We can get confirmation of how many shots kmd has left from him, but we won't know about the roleblocker (not that there's any evidence to suggest a blocking).

If kmd has 0 shots, then we'll be able to kill 2 of those 4. If kmd has one shot and we can get a 2-fer, we'll be able to kill 3 out of those 4.

So imo, the only real time where it's useful to target yos over rofl is if kmd has one shot and one shot only.

[SerialClergyman]

So yeah, I'd prefer lynching Yos, but if enough people can't be convinced well before deadline, I'll switch to rofl. My heart can't take another repeat of yesterday.

Tell me about it.

[SerialClergyman]

Arg. Zu so scummy. Seriously can't tell the difference between bab lynch and Tajo lynch?

Was going to go on but why bother. Zu filthy scum.

Kmd, tell me your bullets so I can place my vote.

[SerialClergyman]

Not to mention that if you think rofl and pooky are scum, why do you think rofl is? Zzz.

[SerialClergyman]

Thesp totally missed the point. A town flip on rofl resolves any question about yos - he's then confirmed town.

If they are both scum, as is likely, the order hardly matters. But if rofl townflips were in a much better position than if yos townflips.

[SerialClergyman]

Yos, if the godfather dies the traitor dies. Did you miss that in thread?

[SerialClergyman]

Serial, the Rofl lynch is the way to go.

vote rofl

[SerialClergyman]

Me too. Sorry charter, it's not that I don't agree with the theory (I raised the possibility) but I just don't think it's worth the risk, given whatever kmd's bullet situation is.

[SerialClergyman]

Guys - look at my analysis. The extra half day ONLY helps if kmd has one shot and one shot only. If he has 0 or 2, it doesn't. He's confirmed that to me, so the lynch of rofl it should be.

I'd be joining you if theh alf day was as important as you're making it out to be but it's not.

[SerialClergyman]

The important bits:

So essentially, provided there is no mafia roleblocker and kmd has 2 bullets, we get to pick 3 out of 4 of elvis, vp, thesp and pooky to kill for the win.

We can get confirmation of how many shots kmd has left from him, but we won't know about the roleblocker (not that there's any evidence to suggest a blocking).

If kmd has 0 shots, then we'll be able to kill 2 of those 4. If kmd has one shot and we can get a 2-fer, we'll be able to kill 3 out of those 4.

So imo, the only real time where it's useful to target yos over rofl is if kmd has one shot and one shot only.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, I thought you confirmed you had either 0 or 2 shots left.

If that's not the case and you haven't confirmed anything, why do you favour rofl?

[SerialClergyman]

Thanks mith - fantastic modding in both flavour, setup and dealing with my PMs.

Well done town.

I think VP's unvote of Tajo with dodgy clears and not clears and his suggestion that KMD not vig when there was an even number of people left are the two more recent tells that weren't discussed much, but the review of the threads was excellent.

I almost had a heart attack when the talk of Pooky lynching started ><

[SerialClergyman]

claiming vanilla cop itself would be dangerous.

[SerialClergyman]

I was speaking to mith about being reminded of The Fonz's theory that the team with the most VIs lose.

I was thinking that we had Pooky, who was playign like a VI all game, and we were going to win - but just as I was thinking that the town was shaping up for a Pooky lynch and he had to drop the crap and post a long, serious and convincing case.

So this game has really highlighted that theory to me.

Xyl - while I tend to agree with you, you seem to think that 'being right' = 'getting scum lynched'. While cases are overvalued, you can't dismiss thigns like looking pro-town yourself and actually convincing people that your reads are right.

Part of why I focused so much on the 'no real downside if tajo is town' argument when trying to lynch Tajo was because I thought that line of argument was more likely to get people on board than 'sup guys, lynch tajo kthx.'

[SerialClergyman]

If it looks scummy or unconvincing, you haven't succeded in trying to look pro-town. If gut players get it and case players don't, you need to work out which style to use depending on whether the game is filled iwth gut or case players, yes?

It was a very interesting game.

For reference - this was the PM I sent mith after tajo flipped scum:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

I haven't lost my team the game!!!!!!!!

Would have absolutely certainly been lynched at some point if tajo was town, and we'd be toast. Eeek!

I think that charter and elvis were certainly the townies who had to challenge themselves the most. I think as soon as I was prodded into action I got a good read and the rest was convincing people I was right despite iam and pooky and the other options while avoiding getting lynched for rolefishing and generally being controversial.

I was really, really happy with my play and the way that worked out, but I don't find that aspect of mafia as hard as something like charter or elvis had to do - completely throw off their reads for the game and reverse their position and vote someone who looked quite townie because it was the right move to make in the circumstances.

[SerialClergyman]

Also - I did lol at Zu's death.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, one other unsung hero was Ojanen's case on VP, which not only made her shinign pro-town but also drew the fastest town clusterfuck of a wagon I've ever seen in my life. Ojanen played well and was unlucky not to get protection from me N2 (I was too much of a pussy, and said so in my night action PM - sorry )

[SerialClergyman]

It's genuinely a hard role to play... I could have defended her, and I breadcrumbed it (my last words the day before was something like 'if xyl is town, ojanen is the only pro-town player I can see') but when it actually came to sending in the night action - I couldn't do it. I have the ability for a 1-shot protect, and can confirm myself using it. After a massclaim, that ability becomes much more powerful. If Ojanen is a Vanilla, as seemed likely, I felt like myp rotecting her was trading a weak power role for a vanilla, and didn't seem like a good swap. Plus I'm 100% on my alignment, and only 90% on hers.

If I knew she was a goon cop I'd have done it.

[SerialClergyman]

I quite liked the total turnaround on Yos2 after N1. If it was much more subtle that would have worked. Ie, distance your buddy D1, then say they seem town D2 and if you ever have to claim you can claim an investigation.

Also it highlights the need to press the wink wink nod nod stuff - mainly because there's very few times when a town player can legitimately use that. If they aren't a role, then being that firm that another player is town without discussion isn't appropriate - it should be loud and above board defence. If they are a role, then that level of softclaiming only serves to give the town limited information with all of the same drawbacks as a full claim (ie, target on your back.)

[SerialClergyman]

I think tajo had it tough. He knew a claim could potentially save two members, but rofl had already brough two people along with him, and he needed another night's confirmed so had to add charter, which meant his claim was dragging 5 people as innocent.

Also - he had no reason to make it until it looked like rofl would be lynched.

Although it's impossible to suggest he do this in hindsight, unless he wanted an epic gambit, he could have done his fakeclaim

as soon as iam countered

. Then he claims hider. We have 5 confirmed innocents and if the vig claims, that makes six. So then you get iam lynched, kill the vig at night and you're in lylo with a plausible if unlikely scenario (iam was roleblocked and the scum killed one of the confirmed town, the vig, last night). Plus you have a 5-man voting block with 11 people in the game, so as soon as a townie agrees with you, you win.

It'd be much less likely to fall apart because anyone arguing for a tajo lynch couldn't use the 'even if I'm wrong it's ok' argument because you're in lylo.