/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[VP Baltar]

/cone-firm

[VP Baltar]

Vote BridgesandBaloons

last to confirm obv scum

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, can you PM your scumbuddies and let them know we've started?

Done! Thanks for the reminder.

Ooo, my first time ever as the first bandwagon of the game (I think). I'm honored.

Why not address what people are saying instead of ignoring it with an offhand remark?

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: ekiM

I was thinking the same thing that Xyl said about his busy work post.

@Thesp-why would you vote BnB instead of Kmd over the conclusion of how many scum are in the game when Kmd was the first person to give a definitive number?

[VP Baltar]

Catching up from my last post, apologies if some of these things end up getting covered as I go through:

I don't think BridgesAndBaloons is scum for positing a particular number of scum.

Why did you vote him at that point then? I thought it was over the number of scum speculation.

@VP- Baltar: What do you think of E_K and the E_K wagon?

I think her attack on Kmd was pretty weak, and she acted a bit strangely when attacked in reply. I think the wagon is probably warranted to get a better read on her.

@Herodotus--what are your feelings on ekiM, particularly his 'one of these 5 are scum' post?

I don't. Any comments from me right now beyond what I've said would be a distraction more than anything else. I could start calling some people probable-town, but don't see much point in that so far. I could make some other accusations, but I'd rather see more pages first.

BTW, I really hate this post. Scum excuses to not participate irk me.

Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke.

I'm a bit slow, explain what was funny about it.

VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.

I had done a reread before the post where I voted you. It stuck out to me on that reread.

@BnB--do you feel a majority of the votes on you are merely for bandwagoning purposes and/or are the result of lazy play?

@Claus-I've noticed that you repeatedly used the word "malicious" to describe EK's attack on Kmd, can you explain to me specificially what was "malicious" about it?

----

OK, think I'm caught up now.

[VP Baltar]

First thing first: Happy birthday, inHimshallibe!

If I were to join one of the big wagons, it would probably be the Xyl one, but I'm in no rush at the moment.

Why are you even worried about joining "one of the big wagons"? Shouldn't you just be voting for whoever you think is most scummy at this point? It's not like we have an approaching deadline.

charter is town. elvis is town. people need to stop voting for elvis. that wagon is full of scum and sheep.

Based on what? I'm aware of your tendency to make statements like this early in the game, and you are often right, but I'm not seeing these two this early in the game. I'd appreciate a little more explanation.

Really? "4 scum plus a traitor" was supposed to be sarcastic? I didn't get that at all. Has that been what others have been assuming all along?

It seemed to me like he was probably just being kind of rude because you were pushing him about his number of scum statement. I find it a bit ridiculous to assume that a player as good as kmd would out the number of his scum team in the opening moments of the game. I almost never put any stock in "slips", however.

Your phrasing is putting the cart ahead of the horse. My reason for not commenting on everything is not scum-motivated. I prefer to focus on the things that I think really matter. At this point, there are more things worth paying attention to.

It's not that I expect you to comment on everything (I certainly don't), but I just don't like the preemptive 'Imma gonna lurk' vibe from that post.

Does anyone see this as overplayed?

Meh. Seems a bit null for alex to me.

I add Shabba to my list of suspects for that post because #1 is scummy as hell and because she asks for four people's opinions on wagons but has given no opinion on anyone herself.

^I tend to agree with this assessment of that particular post.

Repeating a simple word over and over may be a vice from me being ESL.

Ok.

I just want to reiterate the fact that you're voting me for something that's not "necessarily scummy, but it's questionable."

I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Seems to me like he is saying it has the potential to be a scummy action.

Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.

Shabba suspicions have some grounds, but I agree with whoever (I think zu_faul) said that she may just be noob town since this is her first forum mafia game. More posts from her to analyze would be best, imo.

Considering that wagon was primarally "elvis is scummy for attacking KMD", I would competly expect KMD's hypothetical scum buddies to be going after Elvis for that.

An interesting point, but only to be filed away for later methinks.

________________

tl,dr

Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions.

That being said, Bridges needs to claim in his next post before someone comes in with judo-quickhammer action.

[VP Baltar]

Oh the joys of the waiting game.....

A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role?

Even though these are somewhat snarky questions, I'd like KMD to answer them.

[VP Baltar]

Also, if iamausername is not scum I'll eat my hat (see photo).

[VP Baltar]

Who else is scummy?

ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.

[VP Baltar]

Who else is scummy?

ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.

Do you think iamausername is bussing?

Possibly, but BnB's alignment needs to be known before it's worth speculating on that. His vote on rofl after stating the scumminess of BnB was weird, and now the quick switchback at very mild questioning is strange enough for me to think he is potential scum.

[VP Baltar]

I'm confused why he isn't voting iamusername if he said that

I'm comfortable with my ekiM vote until he addresses the points made against him.

[VP Baltar]

the WIFOM, it burns me

I wouldn't use WIFOM if I was scum.

This is by far the most hilarious thing I've read all week.

[VP Baltar]

There is too much support for a BaB lynch for me to believe there aren't/weren't multiple scum on his wagon. Not that this makes him town, but I'm more interested in the wagon.

This is a really confusing statement. What sort of interest do you have in the wagon? Do you think BnB is a good lynch or not? If not, why are you not actively trying to persuade the town elsewhere?

Is this just gut feeling I have to disregard?

It's nothing worth me commenting on right now, just some vibes here and there.

It's not a 'switchback', since I wasn't voting BaB before

Just because you didn't actually vote doesn't mean you weren't saying you were going to. In fact, you spent most of the post building up to it and then dropped the rofl vote. Now, maybe you were indeed waiting for a claim before voting or maybe you were just hesitant about looking scummy so close to the hammer. I think that is where I am interpreting your rofl vote differently. I mean, if what you are saying is true, why spend so much time stating your intent to vote BnB? Why wouldn't you condense it down and say something like 'I support the BnB wagon, but I think we need to hear a claim first'? Seems to me like you were telegraphing your punches.

[VP Baltar]

Herodotus, while producing interesting stationary, is utterly confusing me. Why are you using Thesp hypo-bussing as a scumpoint against BnB?

[VP Baltar]

As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?

Yep. You were witness to my most recent time. It was quite effective too.

[VP Baltar]

Catching up a bit here:

I agree with inHim in post 399 about BaB's "can't post now" feeling mega-forced.

It's the other way around. BaBscum is a consequence of Thespscum. But I am now thinking this connection may be weaker than I thought.

What happened to make you think it was "weaker"? Why does your post in 404 then seem to return to the idea that they are both more likely to be scum?

re: Claus' cases on ekiM, Yos, and Thesp--I'm sold on ekiM (though I already was), not so confident in the other two yet, though you make a couple interesting points on both.

bridges: STOP RIGHT THERE! XYL COULD STILL BE SCUM WITH ME!
everyone in their right mind: now why would you say that if you were anything but scum with not xyl?

lol. I agree.

Did you think I intended it to be taken in earnest?

Frankly, yes I did. I saw very little to indicate that you were being sarcastic or something like that.

If zu thinks I am scum he should absolutely still vote for me, but I would expect him to argue with things I have said, and show why I am scummy. He hasn't done that. He just keeps his vote on me and says nothing about me, while slowing progress in other areas. Not helpful.

I agree with this. It is this sort of background feel about zu that sticks out to me as scummy. Honestly, until some of the more recent pages he was basically non-present to me.

Other thoughts: I am still really torn over Herodotus. There are moments when he asks some ok questions, and then there are certain things (slowly sliding in favor of BaB wagon) that stink of scum.

WTF is alex? You'd think if he was so worried about people hammering he might put some hitch in his giddy-up and post something. I've never know alex to be a lurker, so this disturbs me.

Summing up,

While ekiM continues to underwhelm me (his 'Do you think I was serious? x 50' post made me want to gouge my eyes out), in the interest of the town I am going to

Unvote, Vote:BridgesandBaloons

for continued scummy behavior and general flailing about without providing a single reason why his lynch is a bad thing.

I think this day is starting to reach critical mass and become more and more useless. Someone hammer (maybe Herodotus wants to follow through with all this talk).

[VP Baltar]

Vote: SerialClergyman

OH HAI!

Overnight I realized how much he was posting in another game while completely avoiding this one at all costs yesterday. He's the quintessential lurker scum.

Other than that, I need to do some rereading.

[VP Baltar]

Which game, VP Baltar? I assumed that his absense was legitimate.

It's an ongoing game, so I can't really talk about it, but there are a few players in this game who are/were in that game and can back up what I'm saying.

[VP Baltar]

I tried reading this again, and it still doesn't make any sense. I made it very clear that I intended to vote BaB if his claim didn't give me a good reason not to, therefore you doubt that I was actually waiting for a claim? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

I'm not seeing where you "made it very clear" that your vote on BaB was dependant upon his claim. All I see was you put something like 'I support a BaB claim'. So, yeah, I think my interpretation of your post is still accurate. I think you may have been feeling out a place on the wagon without jumping right on when it was so close to a lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I made it clear that I had intentions of voting him, and I asked for a claim. I guess I thought people would be able to put two and two together and not get fifty six.

You've clearly never seen my math skills.

Why do you think I supported the claim, if that had nothing to do with my vote?

It's rather arbitrary to say you support the claim of someone who is at L-2. It's pretty much guaranteed to happen. Also, as I said above, your point was not made as clear as you seem to think it was.

How about this, if you were indeed waiting to see BaB's claim before deciding to vote him, why even bother voting for rofl? Why not wait until BaB's claim and then decide where to vote?

[VP Baltar]

ekiM, what are your feelings on who the scum are today given that most of your scumhunting yesterday centered around who was trying to "deflect the B&B wagon"?

[VP Baltar]

I disagree with this.

Based on what? It's especially true of the BaB wagon yesterday given the number of people not voting, but saying they would be willing to support.

[VP Baltar]

I've answered questions directed at me, so comments, analysis, and vote --> later.

*checks watch*

Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?

This is a good question.

The thing is, I could totally accept the idea that my intent to vote BaB wasn't entirely clear.

My point is that you were leading up to it in that post and then did not. You're saying that, more specifically, your intent to vote him

later

after his claim was clear. I'm saying no it was not. Your intent to vote him in that post seemed clear enough, then you didn't. There is a difference to me in those two points, even if they both speak to intent.

I mean, in retrospect, the rofl vote probably was pretty pointless, but certainly no more so than keeping my vote on alex would have been.

Not really.

If it was the fact that I voted rofl that you had a problem with, why didn't you just say so instead of posting all that nonsense about "telegraphing my punches" and whatever?

His vote on rofl after stating the scumminess of BnB was weird, and now the quick switchback at very mild questioning is strange enough for me to think he is potential scum.

Also, what do you think of ekiM's scumhunting so far this game? Do you have a read on him?

SC is looking slightly better to me now that he is actually participating, though I'd like to hear a lot more. In the meantime,

Unvote, Vote: iamausername

. Your attempts to derail my attacks with very bad and largely illogical arguments stinks of scum.

ekiM and zu_faul are also acceptable lynches. I might back a Yos lynch based on his seeming switch in stance on the Kmd/EK thing, but I can't really speak to all the meta business since I've never played with him.

[VP Baltar]

VP especially left his vote on me for all of Day 1 while I was conveniently V/LA, meaning he didn't have to commit himself to much else. Read him in iso and he really doesn't commit to much at all textually.

In VP's arguments with iamausername, VP comes out looking bad to me. Read them.

Wow this is a pretty stellar case you have here. After 27 pages of text, the best case you can come up with is:

1) You don't think I'm scumhunting enough
2) You disagree with my points

Teach me your secrets, master.

This looks like a royal case of OMGUS, since Xyl and I were the ones who started the pressure on you. Still would back an ekiM lynch in the worst way.

[VP Baltar]

Why did you park your vote on me for the entire day yesterday? "I'm happy with my vote until ekiM answers my questions" while I'm V/LA accomplishes... what? Avoiding accountability for being involved in wagons?

So when someone declares V/LA a player should immediately remove their vote because there is clearly no purpose of it being there?

Also, I like how you are trying to paint me in broad strokes as someone who just voted you and went silent yesterday even though I commented on most of the current events and was actively questioning several players (iamausername, Herodotus were amongst the fore). Since you spent so much time reading my iso, I would have thought this would stick out to you. Both of those things were more than what I saw from your IIoA and "these people are scum because they don't want BaB to be lynched" accusations.

But hey, this line of argument is pretty awesome. Continue.

[VP Baltar]

What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?

To let you know I found your comment seriously scummy. It clearly worked since you've taken so much offense to it. Also, while you were gone were some of my largest posts of the day. How does that fit with your not commenting on stuff argument?

Asking questions isn't exactly committing yourself to anything.

I think my suspicions were plenty clear from the types of questions I was asking. Should have also been clear when I said I'd eat a whole hat if iamausername is not scum. Doesn't that impress you?

Still waiting. Especially good would be explaining how saying "1 of 5 lurkers is scum" in the RVS is more vote-worthy than anything else you saw all day.

You know, no matter how many times you try to play it down I continue to disagree. I don't care that you said "deeply concerned" or that your said 50 times that you couldn't possibly have been serious. It is still a comment that irked me and didn't strike me as the usual RVS joking.

I don't see how you are saying that it was an RVS comment considering you implied your bandwagoning Xyl vote in that same post to be serious.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: ekiM

yay for support finally.

vp baltar should come back to the wagon.

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but I'd like to hear his response to the points Yos has made about misrepping the BnB thing in particular. Anyway I can convince you and your posse to join the burgeoning ekiM wagon? It's hip and there's free drinks.

[VP Baltar]

What's the tl;dr case on ekiM? Something to do with his interactions with elvis, or what?

Here's why I think ekiM is scummy in brief:

• His scum hunting Day 1 was largely non-existent. When he did finally get around to calling people scum, it almost entirely hinged on BnB being scum.
  
• He has used IIoA and unnecessary repetition to pad some of his posts and seem busier than he really is.
  
• Oj points out a pretty strong contradiction from him here
  
• After 27 pages of play, the best suspicions he is able to come up with are as follows:

  Kmd4390

  - Yeah, I don't like that unvote yesterday. If you unvote for vanilla, does that mean you lynch investigative roles? I don't get it.
  
  If you're sure someone is townie, you should be working your ass off to derail their wagon. He... didn't. Of course if he's scum and unvoted then he's off the wagon when a townie was lynched.
  ...
  

  VP Baltar

  - His fixation with me yesterday while I was V/LA seemed like a major cop-out. He didn't comment much on BAB wagon until right at the end.
  ...
  

  Xylthixlm

  - zwet alt? I don't like the huge number of one liners that don't really say anything. Got off the BAB wagon but didn't try and derail it. What does that achieve?

  Notice how all of these are still related to the BnB wagon, and in your particular case he is actually blaming you for not trying to derail it. Funny for someone who would have called you scum for doing that yesterday.
  
  
• Need I say more?

[VP Baltar]

charter - gut, meta arguments, agressive charter is town charter.

Have to advise against this. He was scum and quite aggressive in Pale Moon Rising. I think he's aware of his own meta. Also, what has been aggressive about him thus far today?

elvis_knits - gut, meta arguments, also agressive elvis is town elvis

Disagree again. Just finished a game with EK as scum and she was plenty aggressive. I've been getting decent (though at times misguided) vibes from her since the original kmd dust up, so I'm inclined to think she is town, but I don't think aggressiveness on her part should be considered a town tell.

Thesp - solid reasoning yesterday, havent heard much of him today, needs to post more.
...
PookyTheMagicalBear - needs to post more. alexhans felt kinda relaxed yesterday.

Definitely agree with these.

[VP Baltar]

Xyl, thoughts on the ekiM points I made for your convenience?

[VP Baltar]

baltar, if you're not going to come back to the serialclergyman wagon, can you give me a better understanding of why you left it in the first place?

I have a stronger scum read on ekiM and username, though SC's continued neglect here isn't exactly making me

not

want to kill him. Like I said before, I'd like to hear more actual opinions and comments from him so I can either prove or disprove my suspicion.

[VP Baltar]

is anyone around right now?

Same here, have a contribution to make?

[VP Baltar]

I see a very distinct lack of reasoning/conviction/pointing out the scummy behaviour, support for a claim and a L-1 vote.

What's your point? I stated my reason for voting BaB in the very post you quoted. I would have preferred ekiM or iamausername at that point, but I didn't really see that happening due to lack of anyone paying attention to anything but BaB. As I basically said in the post you quoted, I didn't find it a bad lynch, just not my main preference.

Prob referring to Claus case. Lack of own initiative.

I was referring to why I was not voting iamausername.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, some of his earlier posts have a whole lot of words for saying absolutely nothing. Very much a feeling of posting just to stay active, there's absolutely no strong stances taken on any subject at all.

I'm not saying my play was stellar yesterday, but this is pretty strong exaggeration. It's not like I was lurking and commenting on nothing.

Then again I ask, why do you think I said I supported him claiming, if that had nothing to do with the fact that I obviously intended to vote him

And I replied to this already. My stance hasn't changed.

Now I believe you're just reflexively disagreeing with everything I say. How on earth would leaving my vote on alex have served any purpose at that point?

I'm not just disagreeing with you for the sake of it. I'm saying your vote on rofl was pointless if what you are saying about the BaB claim was your true intention.

(Not from that post, I know.) The problem is that you are terming it as "an RVS comment" instead of "a joke". THERE IS NOT A DISTINCT LINE DIVIDING THE 'RANDOM' PART OF THE GAME FROM THE 'SERIOUS' PART.

Again, keep harping on the same shit to chainsaw for your buddy ekiM. This may have been a jumping off point for why I first started watching ekiM closer, but it is most certainly not one of the reasons why I want him lynched. Look back at the points I made against him if you want to know why I think he's scum (which you have chosen to ignore for this insignificant BS).

I'd like you to comment on those points, please.

I've seen too many times when people have been pushed close to lynch, but haven't because a majority of people had not expressed a desire for such a person to claim (in their opinion).

Do you think this was really the case with BaB yesterday? I'll have to look back, but I'm pretty sure there were several players not on the lynch who said they would join and I'm positive he had been asked to claim already. If that's the case, what you're arguing here does not apply to that specific instance.

VP Baltar needs to die.

No?

----
Preview edit:

VP talking recently about SC's continued neglect here seems malicious wording after SC's current activity.

What are you talking about?

Tag fixed. - Mod

[VP Baltar]

I think I'm switching to back up a VP Baltar lynch.

You were voting me before?

I'm sensing you feel there is a tide gathering against me and you want to get on early.

[VP Baltar]

re: your first quote Oj, if you look at that quote in context it very much makes sense.

Wasn't voting you before, don't see where I implied so.

I'm referring to you saying you're going to "switchback" to me. Never knew you were there in the first place other than vaugely saying you didn't like me in iso.

Also, if I'm sensing tides, why detract from Mike wagon now.

Maybe you're his buddy. For how much you talk about him being scummy (a considerable amount more than me), you seem at ease with slipping off that wagon after it has now gained some steam.

[VP Baltar]

Either you're not reading properly or I'm mixing up definitions of words (ESL kid here).
Divided to separate rows for clarity.
I switched to back up.
I did not switchback.

Sorry, that's my bad. I was reading it wrong. *needs sleep desparately*

The context is that rofl asks why you left the wagon. Don't see the difference.

I'm referring to the context of SC slipping back under the radar at that time, not the question it was in reply to. And iirc, I stated a couple times after this that I was feeling better about SC as he posted more. You're either being lazy town or selective quoting to try and pad your case.

Yeah. Real sneaky of me to contribute so much in arguments and vote him the whole day to get the wagon going and then change my mind

Well, it is odd that you would spend so much time going after a player and then suddenly go, 'Oh, hey, I don't like baltar's contributions D1 and he's voting ekiM...so I'm going to switch.'

[VP Baltar]

Ummm. Baltar. the post is from yesterday. You said you were feeling better before it.

Ok, so my timeline wasn't straight by memory. I thought it was from earlier in the day. At the time I made that post there were something like 3 or 4 pages since his last post. However, checking the timeline of it, it was only a little better than 24 hrs, so I was wrong in that instance. It felt like he was away for longer and saw him post in another game, but like I said above, I'm probably in the wrong in this instance.

Before my post 730 of pointed VP Baltar dislike on Friday, during the game whole day, the only people that had vocally suspected VP were iamausername (they had some spat 10 about pages ago), and the very popular ekiM more recently. Noone had voted VP at all. He made tajo's and elvis' neutral list and Kmd's "town I think" list.

Your "strong" accusations in 730, while having a lot of quotes, don't seem all that strong to me.

Your basic points are that:

1)I wasn't taking enough initiative on the BaB case to warrant voting.
~Well, so what? Every vote on a wagon doesn't need to be a bastion of original thought for it to necessary. Almost all of the large games I have played in recently have been drowned by the town not being able to come to a concensus on the lynch. I don't see a need for Day 1 to go on to 50 or 60 pages. It hurts the town overall, which is what I said when I voted. I'd rather put my vote on a wagon I think is just ok so the game can make good progress forward, than I would argue for other 20 pages trying to convince people that I am right. I have made that mistake before and it's simply frustrating. I'll ask you this as a counterpoint, had BaB lived D1, do you think the cloud of suspicion surrounding him would have gone away or been any help to the town whatsoever? You can condemn it as me being lazy, but I still say it was the proper play for the town at that time.

2) You don't like me questioning ekiM's RVS comment.
~Not the main reason I find him scummy. Iamausername likes to keep bringing this up, but I would say that since he made that comment he has several other scummy actions. I pointed out what I thought were the main points. Those are ignored to talk about the RVS comment ad nauseum.

And that is the extent of your "strong" accusations against me. Like I said before, I'm not arguing that my play was the best on D1, but I fail to see how the points you are bringing up are lynch worthy when there are much better targets out there (in addition to players who are simply getting free lurking passes).

Now, regarding you being scummy. Honestly, I think I overreacted last night. I was tired and pissed off. You're actually one of the players that I felt was more likely town. I don't even want to keep arguing that point because it's not something I really believe. I think what is really upsetting me are that people are buying into iamausernames OMGUS attack on me.

----------------
Preview edit: Giant post from ekiM~I'll get to this in a bit.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, finding a comment seriously scummy as a jumping off point to keep an eye on you, but later finding it to be less significant than numerous other scummy actions you have made must be some kind of contradiction!

I mean, the word seriously is in there!

More scummy arguments over semantics to ignore the actual points against you please!

[VP Baltar]

I'm not even going to go point by point through this mountain of bullshit because no one seems to be listening to me anyhow and I don't like to waste my time. When I flip vanilla, please proceed to lynch iam and ekiM.

Charter is right about my wagon ballooning due to scum. At least someone has some damn sense.

Goodnight nurse.

[VP Baltar]

When you give a reason [regarding finding iam scummy yesterday], the only thing you seem to have is that he was supported a BAB claim without voting for him immediately, which seems utterly innocuous to me. Supporting a claim is obviously support the wagon/lynch, too.

IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter.

Not sure on the need to mention it if it's so innocuous to you. I gave a reason awhile back why a hypo-scum IAAUN might do that, but that was of course stupid and not scumhunting in your eyes.

unvote; Vote VP Baltar

Why I am voting for VP Baltar

• He voted me for making a facetious comment towards the start of the day, and left that vote there for the entire day. He was happy to leave his vote there until I "answered his questions". Well, his one question: Explain how that facetious comment was funny. He left the vote there because that comment was "seriously scummy".
  
  Translation: Not moving your vote around is scummy. Response: I disagree.
  
  
• Contra the above, VP has totally failed to explain at any point how that comment was scummy, and is now not interested in discussing it. It is, after all, insignificant bullshit.
  
  Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me. The reason I pointed out your

  serious

  vote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post. You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way. The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.
  
  
• With his vote safely planted on a V/LAer, his commitments to suspicions yesterday were distinctly underwhelming. See post 765.
  
  I don't agree, but whatever. I can't change your mind if that's your opinion. I think I was plenty clear on where I stood even if I was being lazy and not scumhunting hard
  
  
• Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
  
  I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it
  
  
• Declared iamausername scum then didn't seem very interested in explaining why or questioning him.
  
  I thought it was a pretty clear reference to his vote bouncing. See what happens when you don't explain things?
  
  
• Sudden revived interest in me today when I make myself look like an ass and an easy target with my Elvis spasm.
  
  Except where I was questioning you and said I would still support your lynch today well before that today.
  
  
• Garbage case. I think he just thinks I'm an easy target.
  
  That must be it.
  
  
• Accusing anyone who defends me of chainsawing.
  
  I believe iam was the only person I actually accused of this. Still believe it's true
  
  
• Interactions with iamausername all of today are just off.
  
  Wow, let me defend against that

---

Responses [to the case I posted]:

• My scum hunting when I was V/LA was non-existant, yes. Well done. When I came back and decided BAB was scum, I based the rest of my suspicions on that, yes. How gauche. Now, how is either of those scummy?
  
  You know very well I wasn't referring to you being V/LA. I implore people to look at your posts in iso. You vote BaB on like page six as his wagon is gaining significant backing. Then when you come back the only scumhunting you really do is to say that anyone trying to stop his wagon is his buddy. Like I said before, my play wasn't exactly great yesterday, but you saying it's bad is the height of hypocrisy.
  
  
• Nope.
  
  Yeah you did. Particularly in some of your catch-up posts. I'm not saying it's everywhere, but it is definitely there, imo.
  
  
• It's not a contradiction.
  
  That's up to interpretation.
  
  
• How strange that the biggest event of yesterday should inform my suspicions for today. Seriously, what is the point of compalining about that?
  It's the way you are doing it that is scummy. He flipped town and now you are arguing that the people who weren't as gung-ho about his lynch as you are the most scummy for that. If anything, your fixation on him yesterday and all things related looks scummy to me
  
  
  
• You do have a point on Xyl though. He actually unvoted to allow BAB time, not to spare him. So ignore that part.
  
  I won't ignore it, but I'm glad you admit it at least
  
  
  Anyway I updated my suspicions on you a bit now I'm back in the game and swinging! Woo!

[VP Baltar]

Iamausername also posted without mentioning VP stuff.

In fairness, I think it is pretty clear he wants me dead.

I agree about Yos not mentioning it being weird, however. I would think that any player posting would at least have some comment on me almost dying within a single page.

[VP Baltar]

sorry to hear that tajo. hope everything is alright.

[VP Baltar]

Oj, what do you think of rofl?

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, can you give your current gameview besides suspecting ekiM and IAUN (scum/neutral/town or something more meaty to that effect)?

If I was going to make a list of scummiest to least scummiest in my mind it would read like this:

ekiM
IAAUN
SC
Yos
Thesp
Xyl
zu_Faul
Pooky
Kmd
tajo
Oj
rofl
Ek
charter

[VP Baltar]

Out of the Yos and Xyl in the last pages, I find myself agreeing with Yos more (here come the buddying accusations). Xyl repeating that he wants my lynch while voting for someone else doesn't exactly make me think he's town, and his ridiculous "I'm xyl so I don't have to do any work in this game" is a terrible excuse for everyone to label him as town.

I also fail to understand how the main case against me is that my scumhunting yesterday wasn't satisfactory while Xyl gets away with that garbage labeled as town.

VP's AtE in 780 and unrequested vanilla claim don't impress me much.

Of course I was frustrated. There were shitty points being made imo and I was practically lynched before I even had a chance to respond. That's just utterly ridiculous to me. Also, wtf is scummy or bad about claiming at L-1? Especially when it takes a page for me to get there. I didn't know there were protocals in place that said I had to wait until I was prompted to claim.

I don't know why he voted rofl, but it's inconsequential. Asking for a claim is clearly supporting a wagon, and pretending otherwise is perverse.

And yet, you didn't address what I said. Why would you even bring it up yesterday if it was so inconsequential to you?

Huge misrep. Not moving your vote around at all on day 1 for a terrible reason is scummy. Doubly so when those suspicions you put across apart from your vote are terrible.

Oh, so now the case has expanded into all of my suspicions were "terrible". I guess I was indeed misrepping your

gross exaggeration

case.

So you agree you weren't scumhunting hard yesterday.

I've said several times today that I didn't think my play was that great. I don't think that it was as awful as you are trying to paint it to be because I was indeed questioning and made some accusations, but would I call it anything close to the best I can play? certainly not.

And Ojanen. Had to walk that back when you realized how absurd it was though, eh?

Even if you believe I said she was chainsawing (which I did not make any serious accusation of), you stated that I was "accusing anyone who defends [you] of chainsawing", which is once again an example of the blatant exaggeration you have been taking in your entire "case" against me.

You can call my attacks bad if you'd like, but at least I'm not going out of my way to blatantly pad my arguments with inaccurate crap. You may be too full of yourself to admit when you're wrong, but I am not.

I don't see, at all, how my scumhunting was "non-existant".

So, accusing tons of people on the unproven premise that BaB was scum is actually scumhunting to you?

I don't understand your point that you had to catch up on 13 pages and that is why your scumhunting was bad. I would think that having tons of material plus the hindsight of where the game was at during that time would give you plenty of opportunity for scumhunting. Personally, some of the best scumhunting I ever do is when I replace into games because I have time to look over things carefully and assess my accusations outside of the moment when they are happening.

Look at your catch-up post in hindsight. Pretty much all of it is written with the pre-conceived notion that BaB is scum. It doesn't even look like you are actually catching up so much as a "let me do a iioa for a BaB lynch" mega post.

Don't respond to a quote by pasting bold stuff inside of the quote. It's impossible to read, and even harder to respond to.

That's no reason to ignore what I said, nor do I care that you don't like it. Now respond.

[VP Baltar]

VP: how do you feel about Pooky?

I wish he would post. Kind of hard to form much of an opinion from nothing.

Nobody was going to quickhammer you because it's very anti-town to quickhammer without hearing a claim.

Well that is some nice WIFOM, but a wagon that goes from practically nothing to L-1 that quickly doesn't give me much confidence that people are being reasonable and are going to wait for a claim before lynching me.

I noted it because I didn't know why he made the vote. It's irrelevant to your argument that he was somehow equivocating on whether he supported the BAB wagon. He wasn't.

I pointed it out not to support my point, which is independent from your comments, but rather to show that your confirmation bias against me is so strong that you are willing to ignore your own noting of it yesterday. You may not see it in the same light as I do, but it must have at least registered to you for it to be noted. However, when I say I think it could potentially have scummy motivation you are basically saying that I'm being irrational. Those stances don't agree for me.

So this wasn't a serious accusation?

I admitted to being emotional in my response after I had some time to sleep and approach it in a more reasonable way. Oj and I were having a heated debate and it wasn't a fair accusation for me to make. I did not "chainsaw anyone who defended you", as I am quite certain there are others who didn't agree with me. That is why I am saying it is an exaggeration.

Since when does using an assumption mean something is not scumhunting? Do you actually believe this or are you just being as contrary as possible?

You weren't looking for any scummy behaviour at all. That's not scumhunting. All you were saying was 'this person attempts to stop BaB wagon. That is bad.'

How is that actually scumhunting, but me questioning people on their statements and independent behavior is not?

I have acknowledged a bunch of times that that post was my first notes, written mostly assuming BAB is scum. If I had more time before day ended I would've done more. Keep repeating yourself endlessly if you like.

So, even though you hadn't read the 13 pages you went into it "assuming BaB is scum"? That's what I'm saying, that's not scumhunting, that's looking for the convenient lynch.

Why are people not voting ekiM?

[VP Baltar]

BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?

Because you are not objectively looking to find who is scummy. How the hell can you determine when you are 13 pages behind if your initial read of BaB is accurate?

I would like those people on my wagon to tell me if you think the above behavior is more likely to come from town or scum.

re: I don't care what Yos, Xyl and ekiM believe the "town" play is in that situation, if I'm at L-1 and it looks like I am highly likely to head for a lynch I am going to claim whether someone asks me or not. It's best to have that information out there and the argument that it is scummy is flat out BS.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP:

re: me claiming-......

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Xyl

Scum team: ekiM, IAAUN, Xyl, Thesp

Wow, this is so much easier than actually explaining myself. Everyone on the ekiM wagon should come over to the new and improved Xyl wagon.

[VP Baltar]

How [is giving claim information useful]?

So if people are going to follow through with my lynch they at least know I'm not a power role. I really don't understand the argument 'don't claim unless prompted'. What would you have proposed should have happened, I kept quiet while people followed through with lynching me and then have me potentially come up a power role? How is that benefiting the town?

[VP Baltar]

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

So most of your reason for thinking him town is because of a one game meta? Have you ever seen him as scum? How do you know his play isn't similar regardless of alignment?

[VP Baltar]

Because you'll find out who would be willing to hammer without waiting for a claim.

Which proves what exactly? I know I am town and, imo, the town is best served by NOT mislynching me. Even though I'm vanilla and not all that useful in the grand scheme of things, I don't see any benefit to me not claiming and thus encouraging my death even further. At least give the town a chance to lynch scum and if a vig wants to spend a shot on me, then so be it. That's how I see it.

or to put it more succinctly:

For VP, the logic would be "at worst vanilla, at best vanilla." Which is a lose-lose proposition.

[VP Baltar]

I think your play has been much different from that game. That game you were so desperate to scumhunt and get scum lynched you got yourself NKed for being obvtown. This game, I see nothing of the sort.

1) You were in scum in that game, so you by default knew I had a higher chance of being town (though there was still a chance I could have been opposing scum).

2) It is really an interest thing for me. If I'm really into a game, I'm more inclined to go out of my way to work hard. I do have bad games as town as well. Go to my wiki and look at Pale Moon Rising. I played awful that game as town partially because I was being lazy in my scumhunting and I tripped on my own words. I'm not exactly proud of it, but it happens.


@ek-You should come over to the Xyl wagon so all this ramming of one's head against a wall can end.

Same goes for kmd, tajo and zu_faul. Once he flips scum it should be very easy to pick out the rest of his buddies on my wagon.

[VP Baltar]

you were a town cop but were so bursting with pugilistic towniness that you couldn't even stay quiet and protect your role

I'm not arguing that point really, but I would say that was partially motivated by how much Mastin was driving me freaking nuts in that game and i was willing to go to no end to get his scummy self lynched.

What is annoying me slightly in this game is that people seem so resigned to my lynch that they are not even listening to the arguments I'm making, especially when it comes to ekiM.

Do you think I'm being honestly unreasonable when I pointed out that him approaching the game yesterday with the preconceived notion of BaB being scum is in itself scummy?

I really don't get how the main argument against me largely comes down to lazy scumhunting, and yet that (and Xyl's play among others) is being excused or even deemed as coming from town.

[VP Baltar]

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

My point is that without balanced research it can't really be considered point in your town favor column. Surely you can appreciate that.

[VP Baltar]

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.

No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.

[VP Baltar]

Maybe they've listened to your arguments and found them wanting? Is that conceivable?

If people (apart from IAAUN) actually responded to what I was saying instead of going, "LYNCH BALTAR RAWR!!!!!", I might be inclined to believe it.

I came back, I skimmed the thread, I decided BAB was scum.

Bull. My point is that when you came back you saw BaB was headed toward a lynch and simply reread the game with the preconception that he was scum. That is scummy. Remember when you said this:

BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?

Then I said this:

Because you are not objectively looking to find who is scummy. How the hell can you determine when you are 13 pages behind if your initial read of BaB is accurate?

I would like those people on my wagon to tell me if you think the above behavior is more likely to come from town or scum.

And the number of replies I received to that was zero, iirc. That is what i'm saying about people being lazy and simply resigning to my lynch without listening to a word I am saying.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: PookyTheMagicalBear

rofl and VP are still scum, but Pooky has given us absolutely nothing, and that needs to stop.

Do you think Pooky is scum or would you be satisfied with a policy lynch at this point?

[VP Baltar]

But even if you ignore all that, what's wrong with a vp lynch? His alignment is crucial to analysing yesterday's wagon, he's been scummy this game, two protown players wanted him lynched yesterday, he claimed vanilla - I think he's a perfect lynch under almost any criteria, yes?

That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I have heard in awhile. What analysis does it provide if I flip town?

[VP Baltar]

VP, who do you think is scum, and why?

Not much has happened to change my scum list. I misinterpreted Xyl's reasonless push on me, but Oj flipping town isn't much of a surprise. I still say the sheer ignorance given to the points I presented against ekiM yesterday is a strong indicator that he is scum. Even though I directly asked for people's opinions on what I presented and if they were or were not valid arguments, I received essentially nothing but crickets.

Here was my top five suspects yesterday:

ekiM
IAAUN
SC
Yos
Thesp

Three out of those five persons have emerged today with no desire more than to string me up without any discussion because "OMG OJ AND XYL WERE TOWN". From my perspective, this looks like a calculated move to hurry through this day.

Other than yourself on that list, Yos, can you give me your brief opinion on each of those players' contributions to this game thus far?

Kmd, do you think your "I agree" statement was obvious as to what you were agreeing with?

[VP Baltar]

Lurking a majority of day 1 while posting elsewhere--check

Sluffing onto my wagon yesterday for shaky meta reasons and 'Yeah, what Oj said'--check

Wanting to speed lynch me today based on nightkills and various WIFOM--check

Incessant rolefishing--check

Vote: SerialCleargyman

--check

[VP Baltar]

So, SC, why are you not calling iam scummy?

Also, Kmd, wanna compromise on an ekiM wagon? I'm still very much in for that.

[VP Baltar]

Why should I?

If your implication is that they're both softclaiming, you've missed the point.

*words*

So in the case when it suits your argument, context is important, but when you are talking about my vanilla claim to EK context means jack? Nice to know.

[VP Baltar]

Let's play hungry hungry hippo!

[VP Baltar]

I'm still vanilla, Yos. I mean, I guess if rofl was scum he'd know I wasn't lying yesterday and it would be a safe bet to have me as his investigation, but that seems over complicated unless iam has some new info we should know about.

[VP Baltar]

I disagree with this bit. If I was a jailkeeper who had jailed rofl and he was breadcrumbing that hard he had an innocent result night 1, I would have claimed. I agree totally about the lynching Yos2 thing though. I'd be pushing for a rofl lynch.

Except in the chance that they are both town (which he clearly considered) it was an awful play. I won't elaborate too much, but I'm sure you can imagine how scum could spin this whole incident in their favor, especially since we are uncertain how far away lylo is.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not convinced this is an either/or situation as you have put it.

I pretty much agree with this. I've been thinking about it quite a bit today, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable pursuing SC's stance of lynch away and assume one of them is lying. The ramifications if you are wrong could be game over.

I mean, as I said before, I could see a rofl scum using my vanilla claim to back up his own claim, but it seems like that would be extraordinarily risky to do since he claimed first and stood a chance of being countered.

[VP Baltar]

Informal poll - who thought

before last night

that roflcopter was softclaiming role information? (This will be helpful, I think.)

I didn't.

I didn't. I've seen several games where rofl plays his "this person is town" game. He does the same thing when he calls people scum too (and often to good accuracy from what I've seen). So, no, I figured he was just playing his usual gut style.

[VP Baltar]

How many games have you played with rofl before SC?

[VP Baltar]

And you've never seen him play like this? Even in Emerald City he played like this to some extent (though I believe Mastin altered several players' styles in that game).

Did you think he had a guilty on Mastin in that game when he declaratively said he was scum from the start?

[VP Baltar]

/orange

[VP Baltar]

I'm a bit behind in this game. Going to try and catch up a bit later today.

[VP Baltar]

I promise a catch up post today or you can lynch me. I do apologize. I was behind in a couple other games and had a lot of work the past few days, so I neglected here.

[VP Baltar]

I think charter makes some good points at the close of 1373. I also disagree with the logic that IAAUN scum would never claim like he did. If he believed rofl was a real PR, then why not try and get him, especially if he believed he was some sort of investigator.

However, I also don't necessarily agree with the camps that are arguing today needs to be one or the other. There is still a possibility that they are both telling the truth. EK's argument that killing rofl will at least confirm two people isn't a good one to make. Say he comes up town and Yos and I are confirmed. Guarantee that one of us gets iced tonight. So, yes, you have one confirmed town tomorrow, but you still have a questionable IAAUN at that point and all those who wanted rofl dead would also look scummy. That's a horrible situation to be in when it could be lylo tomorrow. Same thing is basically true of IAAUN lynch, except we won't get the one innocent. Yos might have the right idea about letting the scum sort it out. If either of them is telling the truth, they are big threats to the scum that I am sure they would want out of the way.

If I had to pick one of their lynches it would be iam for the Yos push and I'm more inclined to believe rofl based on my own role (though, again, that could have been easily manufactured given I had already claimed).

thesp+charter totally scumbags

Don't necessarily agree

ekim also scumbag

fo sho.

Agree!

This was my understanding as well.

Apparently we are crazy.

I feel like a lot of people that were active at one point (like when they were under pressure) are not being very active lately.

Again, sorry.

Pooky is town I hear...

Apparently there have been 3 pages with not a lot of substance being said. I think we need to determine if we are going with a third party lynch or picking out of our claimed powerroles.

[VP Baltar]

We are really scatterbrained here, ppl.

These are the facts:

Iamausername forced rofl to claim.
Rofl claimed vanilla cop with two innocents on Yos and VPBaltar.
Iamausername claimed jailkeeper who kept rofl N1

Our choices are:
1)Rofl is scum
2)Iamausername was blocked
3)Iamausername is scum who decided it would be a good idea to fake claim out of nowhere

I would like everyone to say which of the above 1, 2, 3 they think is most likely and why.

If I am picking from your list, then I'm going with #3 for reasons I already stated. I also don't see much difference this game from rofl's usual town style.

That being said, I'd still like you to address my earlier points EK:

I also disagree with the logic that IAAUN scum would never claim like he did. If he believed rofl was a real PR, then why not try and get him, especially if he believed he was some sort of investigator.

Let me expound on this a bit, because I don't think I was entirely clear. IAAUN stated that he felt rofl was an investigative PR, so does that make scum going for a 1-1 trade more likely to you? If Iam is a goon and we are as close to lylo as we could be, wouldn't framing rofl and hoping to talk their way out of it the next day be a worthwhile risk to take for scum? Do you think rofl flipping town would mean that Iam is going to get insta-lynched tomorrow? If scum were to pursue such a plan, do you think they would be better served by forcing rofl to claim first?

Also, could you give me your thoughts on this:

EK's argument that killing rofl will at least confirm two people isn't a good one to make. Say he comes up town and Yos and I are confirmed. Guarantee that one of us gets iced tonight. So, yes, you have one confirmed town tomorrow, but you still have a questionable IAAUN at that point and all those who wanted rofl dead would also look scummy. That's a horrible situation to be in when it could be lylo tomorrow. Same thing is basically true of IAAUN lynch, except we won't get the one innocent.

[VP Baltar]

I just think scum would rather go for a mislynch on somebody else, rather than construct a fake claim in order to lynch a power role, which would result in confirming two innocents. It's not 100%, but I just think Iam fakeclaiming is unlikely. If you disagree, explain why.

I already explained why. Getting a mislylnch on a powerrole is significantly better than getting a mislynch on someone they don't have an inclination toward. Now, the question of why they didn't kill him over night if that is true is a fair enough. Maybe they thought he might be protected since apparently so many people assumed he was a PR. I dunno. It's a decent point to make.

The two things that will screw a scum team in the end are confirmed innocents and power roles. This will put them in the position of wondering which will be more damaging. If it were me, I would be worried.

But that doesn't answer my point really. Say rofl does flip town. Say we have five scum and a mislynch today puts us in lylo. What do you think are the odds of the town lynching correctly in that situation even if you do have one confirmed vanilla? Do you feel a lot of people would look suspicious if that were the case?

If you think Iam is scum, why are you voting SC?

I just haven't been in a hurry because I think this is a very serious decision with ramifications for the fate of the game. I want to fully talk it out (yeah yeah, I know I was away for a couple days, but I still feel the same way). Right now my vote isn't hurting anything with where it's at and I will move it when the time comes to make a decision. Also, I still think SC could be scum.

[VP Baltar]

Alllright, that was unexpected. Why kmd? Seems to me like there are better options.

[VP Baltar]

I dont disagree with a Pooky lynch but I really think a KMD lynch is a better idea.

Why though? Anyone who wants a kmd lynch can explain this if they'd like.

I think shooting anyone else would be a risky move, because hitting town could potentially mean game over. But if you hit town tajo, you won't actually hit, because of his role. Wheras scum tajo will die just as well as anyone. Turns it from high risk/high reward to low risk/high reward, what's not to love?

This seems more than a bit scummy to say given the roles. If tajo hides behind someone and they die, he dies too. So that is two deaths and then if we have 5 scum they auto-win, correct?

[VP Baltar]

Balter, IAUN is saying to shoot tajo. He has to hide behind someone, so if the vig shoots tajo, tajo dies if he's lying, nothing happens if he's town. If the vig shot someone else and they were town and tajo hid behind them, it could be game over.

Ah, ok. For some reason I was thinking the action would hit who he was hiding behind. That makes sense then.

[VP Baltar]

That's settled then.

Unvote, Vote: Pooky

[VP Baltar]

EK's not scum as far as I'm concerned.

[VP Baltar]

Of the eight that rofl an vp say have to have all of the scum

Where did I say anything of that sort?

[VP Baltar]

SC, how do you feel about Pooky's above post?

[VP Baltar]

YS I AM

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I was gone most of yesterday. Skimmed up on all I missed. Tajo lynch seems like a good idea...though like Elvis, I'm bad at figuring out this sort of thing. After I get some work done this morning, I'll spend some time going over it in more detail in my head. In the meantime,

Unvote

[VP Baltar]

Given the mix of claimed roles we have, I think a No Lynch has the following benefits: 1) it will confirm the NKed player and possibly anyone related to him or her, 2) it gives the chance for us to have another round of night actions that may lead to outright confirmations, 3) it forces any lying scum to fake another round of night actions, which almost always tightens their noose further, 4) it gives us an additional night if we choose to no lynch again tomorrow and 5) if certain people are telling the truth about their roles, we have a reasonably good chance of WIFOMing the scum and blocking the kill altogether/confirming SC/offing a scum through the vig.

Obviously, benefit #4 is unique to a No lynch and thus would be the major selling point.

Now, tajo lynch also has many of the same benefits, but also could potentially confirm four players. If tajo is scum, we lose those confirmations, but it simultaneously puts some heavy suspicion on other players. Downside is that we lose the opportunity for potentially two more days instead of one.

Like I said, I'm not good at working about what is the best course for night actions, though I feel that setting out something before hand may not be the best play in case there is some missed logic hole. Perhaps if we go the no lynch route, PRs could give a small list (three players?) for their actions so there is still enough WIFOM for it to be successful, but in the event of failure town will still be able to try and figure out what happened.

I'm going to vote for one of these options sometime today when I get home from work after I've had some more time to think on it.

[VP Baltar]

I'm around charter and I will vote well before deadline, so relax. Maybe you can help me with my decision. Explain to me why tajo lynch is significantly better than the possibility of two days (or more) via no lynches?

[VP Baltar]

That's true enough. The benefit of a no lynch I see is night actions basically painting a hypo-tajo/rofl scum combination into a corner after another night while also giving us the potential for more days.

However, I think you may be right, and you're one of the few people I've consistently seen as town this game, so I'm more inclined to follow you.

Vote: tajo

[VP Baltar]

Answer this. And everyone in my wagon. I feel like Im wagoned by people that doesnt think Im scum pushed by shitty reasoning.

I fully admit that I'm unsure about it and any lynch on you is mostly because I think charter and EK have made some good points.

That being said, I'm unsure about Pooky as well. Yes, he doesn't have much that points to him being town in this game, but isn't his meta to play like that? I've never played with him before, but that was the impression I was under.

[VP Baltar]

I think everyone should weigh in before a hammer is thrown.

[VP Baltar]

They have? What points are those?

From a strategic point of view, I think we learn more from the tajo lynch.


However, you do appear to be correct that if he flips town we have to lynch right every day until the end of the game. I don't like those odds at all.

Unvote

I need a minute to look at some numbers.

ugh.

One thing I'd like you to answer Yos, is why do you back a Pooky lynch when we could be in the same exact situation tomorrow if he flips town? Wouldn't the proper thing to do in that situation be to vote for a no lynch?

[VP Baltar]

Well, let's look at this both ways. If we lynch tajo and he flips town we will have rofl, Yos and myself confirmed.

That leaves ekiM, SC, charter, EK, IAAUN, Kmd, zu Faul, and Pooky who could be scum. Let's assume one of the confirmed gets killed and we have a worst case scenario of five scum. That's a 63% chance of lynching correct, right?

Pooky flipping town doesn't confirm anyone and would leave us with a 50% chance.

The question here, for me at least, is if that extra 13% outweighs my overall feeling that Pooky has been more scummy than tajo. Then again, maybe they are both scum and it doesn't matter.

More ugh. The good news is that I definitely don't think no lynch is a good idea anymore.

[VP Baltar]

Balter, please hammer asap. I am very worried that someone is going to unvote.

I assume you are missing something here, even if I vote tajo we are short a vote.

[VP Baltar]

It had occured to me that they could both be scum, especially given pooky's unwillingness to vote tajo even though he 'knows he's town'.

[VP Baltar]

@SC, yeah your numbers were correct. It would basically make it almost impossible NOT to hit scum tomorrow.

I'm going to bed now. I think I should be up before deadline tomorrow, but just in case.

Vote: tajo

(again). If it gets down to deadline though and no one seems to be showing up to save the day, I would also switch to pooky. Anyhow, night.

[VP Baltar]

rofl, results please.

[VP Baltar]

That's everybody, right?

Personally, I don't care for Pooky's whole interaction yesterday with tajo yesterday, so he's higher on my hypo-scum list, but other than that I pretty much agree with your plan.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, EK, that is pretty much what I was thinking about pooky if he is actually scum as well. If rofl and Yos are on the scum team, losing pooky would have damaged them substantially less than tajo being lynched.

[VP Baltar]

I wonder what would have happened if pooky had failed to vote anyone... I don't know what mith's deadline rules are... or who reached six votes first between pooky and tajo.

It would have been a no lynch. However, Iam had stated his intentions of switching to tajo at deadline if necessary. Pooky was the first to six, iirc.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Yos

ekiM makes a decent point. rofl is all but confirmed at this point. Meanwhile, yos hasn't said a word.

[VP Baltar]

Yos isn't dead yet? Come on people.

[VP Baltar]

Well it seems the scum tried to kill Kmd yesterday, assuming SC was protecting him.

I think I need to mull this over a bit today when I have sometime before I determine who to vote out of Thesp, Pooky and zu faul.

[VP Baltar]

I fail to see what pooky has done in this game to make you believe he is town, but whatever. I'm pretty much fine lynching any of the three people I listed because I think any remaining scum are in their ranks. Order shouldn't matter because I don't see how we can lose the game.

[VP Baltar]

VP, scum were all over lynching Pooky over Tajo.

I already addressed this. Tajo getting lynched was very bad for them because it outted rofl...which we now know was even more detrimental than losing just him. If pooky is part of the scum team too, they would have of course rather lynched him because it would have given them some town cred and also protected 3 scum members.

I'm not saying that's definitely what happened, but it is a possibility I think. Outside of the opposing wagons, do you see anything from Pooky that looks town? Why wouldn't he vote tajo until I goaded him into it?

[VP Baltar]

However, you're right that he's probably not the lynch today given that the wagon was on him. That's leaves Thesp and Zu.

[VP Baltar]

Who considered Iam and Serial scummy to the point they would have supported the lynch?

Also, lynching Iam would have been bad for the scum, imo, because it would have confirmed he was telling the truth...thus again guaranteeing rofl's lynch. Basically I see it as the scum had built a frail house of cards and might have been willing to sacrifice a member to protect it.

[VP Baltar]

Look, your argument doesn't even make sense because if SC was as easy of a lynch as you are claiming him to be, then why didn't they just pile on him? We know for a fact that he was town, so what would have been stopping them from just lynching him?

I don't think the support was ever really there for an SC lynch. Once the tajo wagon started ramping up, they really had no choice but to pile on the only other available option, which was Pooky whether he was their partner or not.

[VP Baltar]

I don't know if vigging if we mislynch is a good idea. I'd have to crunch the numbers, but if that vig is wrong, it could be disasterous.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, just did the numbers. We have seven players now. If we lynch zu and he flips town that puts us at six. If kmd shoots wrong and is killed, that puts us at four with potentially two scum left. Instaloss, so I don't think shooting if zu flips town is a good idea.

[VP Baltar]

lol, well I apparently can't count. scratch that then.

[VP Baltar]

And ftr, I'm fine with being vigged. Honestly, my bad play early on has made me waaaay too scummy to be useful. Obviously, it is best to vig scum, but if I am going to be a hinderance in an endgame scenario I'd rather be dead.

[VP Baltar]

vote Zu_faul

should be fun when he checks this thread.

[VP Baltar]

Now, now, EK. Give the scum a chance to flail a little bit. That's like cutting into a blueberry pie before the filling has gelled.

[VP Baltar]

moment of silence observed

Vote: Thesp

[VP Baltar]

I don't see how you have any kind of scum read on EK, Thesp. While I don't feel she was as present early on, I think she has played a very pro town game in the later days and was important to the scum lynches we have had so far.

I'm still pretty confident that this game will be over once Thesp is lynched.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I'm pretty intent on voting Pooky.

I think charter should stump just so he is 100% confirmed.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I don't see a rush. I'll give a full reread of pooky (shouldn't be much) and probably take a glance at EK just to be thorough.

[VP Baltar]

Well, there is not much I can say about my wagon vs. Xyl wagon because I would be suspicious as hell of it if someone else was in my position. I have been thinking about it trying to figure out the scum motivation for not lynching me at that and the only thing I can think of is that I was such an easy target at that time the scum did not want to waste the lynch if they thought they could preserve me for later.

I looked back over my wagon and I think the sheer speed of it gave the scum the perfect opportunity to be against it. I mean, I reached L-1 in a single page and before any of the thus confirmed scumbags had even posted charter and EK were already saying they didn't want to back the wagon and would prefer an Xyl lynch.

If they thought my lynch was going to go through anyhow (I was still at L-2 when EK unvoted), why not argue against my townie lynch, especially after every single member had been on theh BAB lynch the day prior?

Maybe they didn't expect the Xyl lynch to go through, thus giving all of them mega town points and still I would be open for a lynch later. I also feel like rofl was already setting up his vanilla cop claim to protect Yos if he needed to.

I don't know, like I said, I can't really fault anyone for finding that suspicious because it looks bad, but that's the only logical interpretation I can reach from my perspective.

That being said, I think pooky's argument to "look to the wagons" is awful considering if you look at his overall voting patterns this game, they look just as bad if not worse than mine. He has been on pretty much any and every popular wagon, yet despite all logic pointing to the contradictory he wanted to call tajo town and wouldn't vote him until he absolutely had to. Also keep in mind that if I was scum and pooky was town, I would have had almost no incentive in that situation to not hammer pooky because lynching tajo was essentially the collapse of the rest of the scum team.

[VP Baltar]

Final Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

BridgesAndBaloons: 11 (

charter

,

ekiM

,

elvis_knits

,

iamausername, inHimshallibe,

populartajo, roflcopter,

SerialClergyman, Thesp,

VP Baltar

,

Yosarian2)

ekiM: 3 (BridgesAndBaloons, Claus, Xylthixlm)
elvis_knits: 2 (Kmd4390,

zu_Faul

)
Claus: 1 (

alexhans

)
Thesp: 1 (Herodotus)

Not Voting: 2 (Ojanen, Shabba)

End of day 1. Alexhans parked his vote on Claus (who I think was fairly protown at that time) and then didn't do much of anything before being replaced.

Final Vote Count: 8 to lynch.

Xylthixlm: 8 (

charter, elvis_knits, PookyTheMagicalBear

,

populartajo, roflcopter

,

VP Baltar

,

Yosarian2, zu_Faul

)
VP Baltar: 6 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm)
ekiM: 1 (Kmd4390)

This vote count is actually funny to look at right now because it is guaranteed that ALL of the scum were on this wagon. I feel Pooky was influential here, which is funny considering how low profile he has been. He hadn't been voting at all this day or saying much of anything, but after rofl and Yos started their attack, he comes in to say Xyl is scum with no reason:

lawls

xyl so scum

vote xyl

Shortly thereafter, tajo and zu pile on.

Obviously, I had a personal interest in this wagon because it was him or me and I know I'm town, which I explained at the time of my vote. I also felt that his attacks on me were lazy and taking advantage of me being an easy target at that time. Like I said before, I think the scum manipulated this situation and could have either 1) seen Xyl as a bigger threat, 2) been planning on boosting rofl's vanilla claim while also keeping me as a potential mislynch for the next day, and/or 3) tajo and zu misinterpreted the pile on by pooky/Yos/rofl as a signal that Xyl was the prefered lynch.

Day 3 starts with pressure on rofl, to which Pooky answered with a vote on the growing Iam wagon. After that declined, more lurking and his vote doesn't move.

Then we have this interesting vote count only four days from deadline:

Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 6 (

charter, elvis_knits

,

iamausername, Thesp

,

VP Baltar

,

zu_Faul

)
iamausername: 2 (

PookyTheMagicalBear

,

roflcopter

)
Kmd4390: 1 (

populartajo

)
roflcopter: 1 (SerialClergyman)
SerialClergyman: 1 (

Yosarian2

)
zu_Faul: 1 (Kmd4390)

Not Voting: 1 (ekiM)

So, if Pooky was indeed town, what was preventing any of the other three confirmed scum not on that wagon from hammering? Seems to me like that would have been an easy mislynch, but I believe they were holding out waiting for something better to come along. Unfortunately for them, that is the same time that the tajo wagon started to gain traction, and looking back over it, the known scum were certainly keeping a low profile at that time.

As I explained before, I think the tajo lynch is the key pointing to pooky being scum. Again he mega lurked (holding onto his Iam vote and needing a prod) as the pressure mounted on both of them and was severely reluctant to vote tajo at all until I pressured him. I don't understand why any town player would be reluctant to vote someone else when it is a him or me situation with deadline approaching and you know you are town. To me, it looks like pooky would have accepted his lynch had I not attacked him for that (which would have obviously been the preferred lynch for the scum team if he is scum).

After that, the scum team simply collapsed due to trying to clear each other and I think pooky had no choice but to bus his partners.

I don't think that collapse would have been possible without EK's assessments, so i'm still pretty inclined to think she is town. So, yeah, once charter stumps, I'm ready to put my vote down.

[VP Baltar]

Not sure how much scumminess she will turn up, but Balter, why write her off so fast?

I'm just really not seeing it. I mean, one could make arguments for it based on her early interactions with rofl and where she was on some of the wagons, but I think she had a sizeable part to play in the tajo lynch, which was the catalyst for the scum team collapse. That could be a move for major town points, but I find it hard to believe that any good scum would actively chop down the cornerstone of their team in hopes of buying cred when they could just get another mislynch. It just doesn't make sense.

[VP Baltar]

I think the fact that nearly the entirity of the wagon took place over a page when none of the known scum had even posted has to be taken into account. Like I said before, I can't really fault anyone for finding me scummy because of that (and my somewhat shitty play up to that point), because I know I certainly would if I didn't know my alignment, but it also wasn't your average wagon either.

Contrast that with the Pooky wagon which had a slower build and many benefits to a scum team built like a shaky house of cards, and then ask yourself which situation does it seem more likely for scum to quick hammer in.

[VP Baltar]

The best part is that not only do we win by lynching pooky, we also get the satisfaction of catching him despite making every attempt to be unreadable this game.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Pooky

[VP Baltar]

I think the fact that nearly the entirity of the wagon took place over a page when none of the known scum had even posted has to be taken into account. Like I said before, I can't really fault anyone for finding me scummy because of that (and my somewhat shitty play up to that point), because I know I certainly would if I didn't know my alignment, but it also wasn't your average wagon either.

Contrast that with the Pooky wagon which had a slower build and many benefits to a scum team built like a shaky house of cards, and then ask yourself which situation does it seem more likely for scum to quick hammer in.

This doesn't make you look very good though. You managed to get most of the town voting you. I didn't buy in to the reasoning at the time. Instead, I started up a Xyl wagon, which blossomed due to having all the scum on it. This makes you look 100 times more suspicious because scum had a nice big juicy wagon on you, and then proceeded to ignore you then lynch the hell out of Xyl. It almost seems like they wanted to keep you alive. Since that wagon, you've come under virtually no scrutiny.

I am definitely not voting until after rereading the game.

And that's fine. I can't really dispute that fact because it's there and I would be suspicious of it as well. I've already given my thoughts on perhaps why it would have happened that way, but that is nothing more than speculation of course.

[VP Baltar]

Hmm, that's good point EK. I've never played with a treestump before. Do they still get a vote after stumping?

[VP Baltar]

Here's the very succinct issues with your large posts, Pooky.

1) It fails to explain why the known scum not on your L-1 wagon would not hammer you when it was very ripe for that. Hammering on that wagon would have looked 100 times less suspicious than hammering me after a one page wagon when the flip occured.

2) All of the quotes you (selectively) pull from the scumbags are from when my wagon was already on the downhill slide. Also, see the above point.

3) Charter isn't scum, so your third post is plain illogical.

[VP Baltar]

1) You claimed on the same frakking page as that vote count. So, your argument that they didn't hammer you because of a claim is utter fail. The fact of the matter is that they were waiting for something better and missed the boat big time when the tajo wagon sprung up rapidly after that. When that happened, they had no other choice but to pile on you and hope that tajo didn't get lynched and blow their cover. Too bad you got screwed on that one scumbag.

2) A majority of them are from around that time it seems to me (though I didn't go source every single one). Also, if your argument is "weak attacks without substantially pursuing" I can very easily pull random quotes throughout the game of the scumbags launching minor attacks on you and never doing much about it. IIRC, there was even one point where Yos was defending you. So, it's a weak ass argument to make, especially since it is quite clear after my wagon that rofl wanted to use me to boost his claim and protect Yos.

3) Well, see, except you are ignoring the part where I said charter needs to stump before the lynch and confirm his innocence. Also, nothing about his play this game strongly says scum at this point. If there is, since you as townie have apparently considered it, then do point it out because I don't see much reason to believe he is scum at all.

Apart from that, I presented a comprehensive case on you and your reply was "I'm town". Just like all game. That pretty much confirmed to me that you were scum hoping to get by with unreadability and I'm happy to lynch you right now because I know you're the last scum. Unfortunately for you, charter and EK were both displeased with your minimal contribution and now that the pressure is actually on you, you suddenly have plenty to say.

[VP Baltar]

Your argument is still terrible, not every person that the scum fail to hammer at lynch -1 = scumbag.

That's the argument you are making about me though now isn't it.

Let's look at the reasons why you claim the scum would obviously not hammer you:

1) Not feeling threatened, wanted to keep me around since i wasn't really contributing
2) felt i was an easy endgame push lynch
3) thought i could easily be fooled into voting for a townie at endgame
4) thought they would be overexposed by a hammer on me.

How many of those reasons do you think applies to me less than they do to you? Not lynching me on my super speed wagon very easily fulfills all of those and probably any other shaky reasons you can come up with. In terms of my wagon, what I think is much less shaky is rofl clearly trying to use me to his advantage after I had claimed.

What did they do when Tajo looked like he was about to get run up? almost all of them ended up piling onto a pooky wagon.

And yet, you're still to give any substantial reasoning why they wouldn't hammer you prior to that when they had a golden opportunity to do so with minor culpability. I've already pointed out a legitimate reason why they would pile on you even if you were scum in that position. Tajo was the lynch pin (heh) in their scum team and they needed to protect him no matter what. I'm not buying the "they were waiting for another townie to do it" because there were minor grumblings toward tajo from SC already at that point. If you were town in that situation it'd make perfect sense to hammer you soon after your claim and nip that in the bud. Like I said though, they took a gamble hoping to not lynch either of their buddies that day and it didn't pan out so well.

The only way a townie can guarantee that Charter stumps to prove his innocence prior to a lynch is to withhold his vote. If you actually meant what you said you would never have voted without actually getting a stump from charter.

Well, that's nice and all, but you didn't answer my question. What do you think is scummy about Charter since you are considering it, as any good townie would?

Also, my vote served a very specific purpose of showing that you are likely scum and I wanted to you to actually respond to the case I made on you. Now that you are, it should be easy for everyone to see the horrible arguments you are having to use to try and defend yourself and that you are obvscum. I mean, do you really think people are going to buy the argument that a scum will vote in endgame first and hope that TWO town members quickhammer? That's ridiculous.

Of course I'm going to select the relevant quotes from the scumbags for when they are talking about you, i'm not going to quote them when they are talking about some dead guy as that would be pointless.

I think you know very well that wasn't what I was saying. You basically picked out parts where scumbags said "I think VP is scummy for this" and then said "oh hey, but they didn't lynch you when they had the chance, obv. scum!". I'm saying that I could go back, CTRL +F Pooky, and probably come up with the very same argument against you.

As far as the scum not joining my wagon, I've already said I can't say much about that. But it's not like those scum were the only ones "derailing" it. So was charter. So was Ek. So were you. Take any of your WIFOM reasons above as to why the scum OBVIOUISLY wouldn't hammer you and apply liberally to my own wagon. I don't know why they did it, but they did. However, the difference between our wagons is that the scum had very substantial reasons as to why they would push on you so hard in that situation after deciding to not lynch you for no explicable reason. They would not have gained nearly as much and would have perhaps even come out worse for lynching me at the time of my wagon.

[VP Baltar]

Charter and EK, if you let scum pooky win this game after contributing nothing all game, I'm going to be very upset with you for awhile.

He is saying I am obv. scum because scum didn't hammer me, when the same exact thing happened to him and the scum benefited SIGNIFICANTLY from trying to lynch him over tajo.

I'm basically just repeating myself here, so reread the posts I made to him in reply and I think it should be fairly obvious that he is executing their scum plan of saving me for the perfect mislynch.

Also, please actually look back at the vote count I pointed out. Pooky was at L-1 with only one scum on him the tide was preparing to turn on Tajo. I can't think of any reason why the scum would not lynch him at that point unless they were trying to save him. It seriously screwed their whole team. It makes no sense not to lynch him at that point.

[VP Baltar]

if they were trying to save me, they would've run up somebody else, like they did with Xyl to save you.

The only viable lynches were YOU or TAJO at that time. They had no reason not to lynch. Unless you're their buddy, of course.

In other news, I love repeating obvious facts.

The scum didn't care if I died or not, but it's pretty obv scumstrategy not to lynch the idiot townie if the town looks like it's about to do it to you.

Why would they not care when their whole scum team collapsed because they didn't lynch you? That's good logic there.

Also, why does your logic that they were waiting for the town to lynch you apply to your lynch but not to mine? That's right, it doesn't because it's bad logic to begin with.

NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS IT WONT SUDDENLY MAKE YOU NOT BEING LYNCHED AT THAT TIME NOT BE SCUMMY.

[VP Baltar]

How could it be that the viable lynches at that time were me and Tajo when Tajo doesn't have a single vote on him?

See, this shows me that you are not actually looking at the context of anything and are simply trying your best to get me lynched on a bad argument. Actually go to the page with that vote count and read the next couple of pages.

I'll give you a hint though: the tide started to fully turn on tajo almost immediately after that vote count. Here are the counts from the next three pages:

Deadline: Approximately 4 days from this post.

Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 6 (charter, elvis_knits, iamausername, Thesp, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)
iamausername: 2 (PookyTheMagicalBear, roflcopter)
Kmd4390: 1 (populartajo)
populartajo: 1 (SerialClergyman)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Yosarian2)
zu_Faul: 1 (Kmd4390)

Not Voting: 1 (ekiM)

Deadline: Approximately 3 days from this post.

Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 4 (charter, iamausername, Thesp, VP Baltar)
populartajo: 3 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, SerialClergyman)
iamausername: 2 (PookyTheMagicalBear, roflcopter)
Kmd4390: 1 (populartajo)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Yosarian2)

Not Voting: 2 (ekiM, zu_Faul)

Deadline: Approximately 3 days from this post.

Vote Count: 7 to lynch.

PookyTheMagicalBear: 4 (charter, iamausername, Thesp, VP Baltar)
populartajo: 3 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, SerialClergyman)
iamausername: 2 (PookyTheMagicalBear, roflcopter)
Kmd4390: 1 (populartajo)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Yosarian2)

Not Voting: 2 (ekiM, zu_Faul)

Tajo was going down quickly and four confirmed scumbags were not on you and could have lynched quick before the damage got any worse. It's my opinion that they were deliberately choosing not to because they didn't want to lynch either of you.

[VP Baltar]

gee whiz, i don't see any oppurtunity for a scumbag to hammer me in those votecounts when Tajo becomes a viable lynch, looks like people switched off me to tajo, those taking me away from the edge while making tajo a viable lynch. kinda kills your whole case doesn't it.

Unless you're honestly surprised that three scum sitting with their votes in different places didn't suddenly synchronized make a move on me when i'm at 4 votes and tajo is at 3.

cuz you know, that wouldn't look suspicious at all, 3 scum suddenly coming at voting me just cuz tajo got to 3 votes.

And yet that was exactly what they did shortly after that when tajo's lynch became even more imminent. Clearly they didn't care about looking suspicious, just about not lynching you.

My guess is they were hoping for just one more townie on the Iam wagon and they would have gladly taken that. Never came through though. You should chastise your buddies after the game for not bussing you when they had the chance. Kind of screwed things up big time.

[VP Baltar]

apart from the three folks voting him there was also talk by others that he was a scum bag.

Again, look at context beyond the vote counts.

EK, you're making me uncomfortable with your silence. At the start of the day you were leaning toward pooky being scum. Then charter said he was leaning toward me, and you seemed to be agreeing a bit more that way. It seems a bit like spurring on a fight from the sidelines. I'd like to hear you fleshed out opinion.

[VP Baltar]

so the scum were supposed to instantly see this analysis and all extract themselves from their positions all over the voting arena and converge on me quickly?

It didn't happen in an "instant". Furthermore, they knew tajo lynch was disaster for them. And even further more, none of the scumbags who have flipped thus far are stupid by any means. They would have easily seen what was happening. It's not complex. The opportunity was there and they had major incentive to take it, yet they didn't. Simple as that. You're not going to win this argument by simply repeating the same garbage and trying to pummel the town with words now after you have made a concerted effort to be unreadable up until this point.

[VP Baltar]

Your argument is that the scum wouldn't vote shift because it would make them look scummy, even though tajo's death would have obviously resulted in all the lynches we have had thus far. That makes a lot of sense.

So, the real question, my dear pooky wookyums, is what are you smoking?

heck if they even voteshift, how are they supposed to know the other scum will voteshift onto me as well? they aren't psychic

Yes, therefore, none of them would vote you for the fear that their partners weren't "psychic".

[VP Baltar]

I never said they needed to switch to you simultaneously. They had time to do it without everyone signing on at the same time. They also had the the chance to hammer you at L-1 or L-2 without much suspicion.

So yeah, round and round we go. You keep coming up with excuses while still refusing to look at the actual wagon, timeline, and grumblings toward tajo.

And the scum should have been able to see their demise from tajo's lynch quite easily given how they were linked so closely in claims and play. It has nothing to do with hindsight. The reason people largely voted tajo was for his connections to rofl and Yos. You should know that if you're actually reading.

[VP Baltar]

I don't see the benefit to scum-zu saying that if he knows vp is town.

Well obviously if my lynch had gone through without scum support it gave zu a perfect chance to shovel shit on people after I flipped town. He could point back and say "see, I told you it was a scum driven wagon on a townie".

[VP Baltar]

What do you want me to respond to specifically charter? I really think rofl was plotting to use me after I claimed vanilla and probably told his buddies that during Night 2. I think they started defending me then for that express purpose.

I don't know what zu's motivation was for saying that. I mean, him saying people were scummy regardless of my alignment looks more to me like him hedging his bets cause he was uncertain of what to do after the other scumbags didn't follow through on my lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I had been attacking ekiM since day 1 and I wasn't particularly moved by his cases. After awhile he wasn't even listening to anything I was saying and I really despise that when I'm playing mafia. He stopped trying to have a legitimate debate and figure out my alignment, and simply wanted to argue with me. I'm not keen on that at all and I see that as more likely to come from scum than town unless I have a meta on you that says you tunnel as town.

[VP Baltar]

So nothing in your reread looks like pooky is scum? Lord help this town.

[VP Baltar]

Well that is ridiculous.

Also, when are you going to stump?

[VP Baltar]

As I stated about twenty times, I think rofl and yos were using me to boost their claims if necessary. Their buddying wasn't really reciprocated by me. I felt rofl was town early, but even that faded after he had claimed vanilla cop because it seemed too convenient to me and was suspicious for how hard he was working it. My guess is that they devised their vanilla cop claim after night 1 and I just happened to be the first vanilla who had to claim after that.

I'm also happy to see that pooky has switched back to his "lol, don't lynch me, tee hee" routine now that the pressure is off.

[VP Baltar]

I need to post here today. Sorry for the inactivity.

[VP Baltar]

[VP Baltar]

Haha, good job town. This was a very tough game and if I would have managed the win I would have done a back flip.

[VP Baltar]

I'm still not quite sold that me hammering Pooky would have given us any more chances of winning. Perhaps, and I'm sure the rest of the scum team feels that way since they all seemed pissed about it afterward, but I really think it would have looked obv. scum team and led straight back to the same lylo situation with us losing. Oh well.

In hindsight, I wish I would have just hammered myself or been bussed when I was at L-1. That wagon was insane and exposed us too much. The scum lovers thing was hard to play as well and forced us to bunch up as protection.

One thing I will say is that playing with an 'elite' player list is a million times more challenging than your average game as scum because it is hard to sell mislynches.

[VP Baltar]

well, I think the lovers role essentially required buddying from the scum team. I think it got a little bit overboard when tajo got involved, but the scum team did have significant interest in stopping their lynches as long as possible.

[VP Baltar]

As far as your decision to bus, Balter, I'm not sure hammering Pooky would have helped you guys, as you said. All my scenarios for if Pooky was scum (if anyone read them) would have been even more impossible if Pooky was actually town. We would have had no choice but to assume tajo was scum gambiting, and the game would pan out pretty much the same way. If you had hammered Pooky, we very well might have lynched you over Thesp in LYLO.

Yeah, that's exactly why I did it even though I knew it was going against the team's plan. It would have given us pretty much 0% chance of winning even though we had a few people playing into our hands.

I felt that taking the bus (which I should have just done really hard and not faltered) gave us the best chance of winning, and if Pooky had actually rolled over as he had been doing all game I think I very much would have won. I jumped up and down with excitement when his response to my case was "lol, I'm town". I thought I had it in the bag there.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, that was actually something I was having trouble arguing against.