/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Xylthixlm]

/conform

[Xylthixlm]

vote: populartajo

Obvious alpaca scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, why are you not voting Yos?

No reason. Plus Yosarian2 is most suspicious on the late-confirming-scum front.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

[Xylthixlm]

:eyebrow:

You scum this game, xylbot?

I'm not scum, but I'm not sure about the bot.

[Xylthixlm]

Cool role list, btw.

[Xylthixlm]

Yosarian2 is identical twins?

[Xylthixlm]

My cat made me do it.

[Xylthixlm]

Ooo, my first time ever as the first bandwagon of the game (I think). I'm honored.

[Xylthixlm]

Why not address what people are saying instead of ignoring it with an offhand remark?

Why bother?

[Xylthixlm]

It says in the first post that role distribution was semi-random and all listed roles have some chance of being in the game.

To be honest, I was kind of expecting this to be a secret mountainous game until I saw that. (

Before

mith sent role PMs, btw.)

[Xylthixlm]

Mmmh.

I'm failing to see anything in the tea leaves of who attacks who so far.

Yos2 is still about .001% scummier than anyone else.

Balance suggests we probably have four scum, or five including a traitor, or five including a pair of mafia lovers, or five balanced by a bunch of town power roles.

Semirandom assignment suggests we can't assume balance.

So... probably four or five scum. Anything more is overthinking it.

[Xylthixlm]

Yos, obviously i'm not using the last to confirm "tell".

[Xylthixlm]

Guessing there's at least on scum in five players is not a gutsy call.

[Xylthixlm]

Guessing there's at least on scum in five players is not a gutsy call.

Actually... Even with only 4 scum, any random 5 players has a 67% chance of having at least one scum. That guess was basically useless.

unvote, vote ekiM

[Xylthixlm]

"Last to confirm" was discredited, not... Whatever the heck I used.

[Xylthixlm]

"Last to confirm" was discredited, not... Whatever the heck I used.

So..."last to confirm" was discredited, but "late-confirming" was not?

I don't think anyone has done the math on people who are active all over the site but wait an extra 24 hours to confirm

[Xylthixlm]

"Last to confirm" was discredited, not... Whatever the heck I used.

So..."last to confirm" was discredited, but "late-confirming" was not?

I don't think anyone has done the math on people who are active all over the site but wait an extra 24 hours to confirm

Lol.

Is that...really the argument you're going to run with here, xyl?

I think you probably should have gone with "yos is scum because my magic 8 ball said so" instead, but, you know, it's up to you I guess.

Why do you care about being .001% scummier than anyone else?

[Xylthixlm]

it feels like so far you're playing on autopilot more or less, that your posts don't really have any correlation with your alignment.

That sounds about right.

I have to get you out of your comfort zone somehow.

Can't help you there. Maybe you should wait until later in the game.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, why did you answer Claus's question in post 66?

It seemed like a good opportunity to vote Yosarian2.

[Xylthixlm]

Optional elements will be in brackets.

[Xylthixlm]

Charter, did you just criticize BB for ignoring attacks while saying I'm a bad wagon because I'm ignoring attacks?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm not feeling scum from BAB.

Herodotus, Ojanen, Shabba, and zu_Faul seem to be lurking under the radar. VP Baltar is borderline.

[Xylthixlm]

BAB was obviously trying to drum up a bandwagon by overstating his case. It was so early he couldn't possibly have had a real case. I fail to see the scumminess.

[Xylthixlm]

Hey Yos, why are you voting Shabba?

[Xylthixlm]

I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.

[Xylthixlm]

You were accusing him of having secret knowledge because he said something that was too specific, so he made it

more

specific.

Well, it looked sarcastic to me.

[Xylthixlm]

*twitch*

unvote, vote Ojanen

I'm not sure why, it just feels like the right thing to do. Thanks for asking.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm really wondering about you, Xyl. Why would you ask a question I had just answered right before you posted? Are you reading the game here?

I know I read that post because I remember going "shanba? oh, he meant shabba", but apparently it did not sink in. Meh.

[Xylthixlm]

I could see you trying to argue against that if you were scum and xyl was town, because you don't want him to be confirmed innocent when you get lynched.

That is the only time I can see you going out of your way to argue against a "bridges and xyl probably aren't scum together" theory. You wouldn't do it if you were scum and he was scum, and I don't understand why you would do it if you were town.

I'll buy this.

unvote, vote BridgesAndBaloons

[Xylthixlm]

I have guesses about some players, but I didn't feel like I had enough justification other than "i'm feeling scummy vibes", which to me, wasn't enough to point fingers or change my vote.

Yeah, I'd be totally willing to vote Shabba.

[Xylthixlm]

shabba's apparent lack of forum mafia experience gives me pause.

besides, a shabba wagon would take the wind out of the bridgewagon's sails, and that would be a real bummer since we should be lynching him pronto.

i still want elvis and yos to vote for bridges. two spots left on the wagon, get 'em while they're hot!

I'd really love a Xyl-elvis-roflcopter-Yos townteam bulldozer. Not convinced on any of you yet though

[Xylthixlm]

SerialClergyman - I have no memory of what this person has done

I remember that he random voted me in my first post for something related to another ongoing game.... but no memory of anything else.

[Xylthixlm]

Does anyone else get the vibe from Yos's posts that he is overexplaining himself and doesn't seem to be playing up to his normal level? Just something I've noticed. Not sure why.

Yes.

[Xylthixlm]

Does anyone else get the vibe from Yos's posts that he is overexplaining himself and doesn't seem to be playing up to his normal level? Just something I've noticed. Not sure why.

Yes.

?

Something feels weird about your play. I'm not sure what, exactly.


[DrippingGoofball]

Yos is obviously bussing BAB.

[/DrippingGoofball]

[Xylthixlm]

I agree that a townie claim is a pretty awful reason to unvote, but it's not a surefire scumtell. Sometimes someone just changes their mind, with the claim as a trigger. Reason to be suspicious, definitely.

And yes, lynching a "vanilla or scum" is a pretty good outcome. Scum would be nicer obviously.

BAB's attempt to stall the game for a couple weeks stinks.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, if iamausername is not scum I'll eat my hat (see photo).

Who else is scummy?

[Xylthixlm]

Who else is scummy?

ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.

Do you think iamausername is bussing?

[Xylthixlm]

the WIFOM, it burns me

[Xylthixlm]

I can't believe I'm doing this

unvote

[Xylthixlm]

I can't believe I'm doing this

unvote

I'm curious about this - whyfor?

The sarcastic "if I come up scum" bullshit feels inexplicably townish. Also, I'd like to see BAB's thoughts on players who aren't lurking.

[Xylthixlm]

Read the reason Thesp offered for his suspicions of BaB.

Quote or post # please.

[Xylthixlm]

As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?

I know I have claimed vanilla as scum. I'm not sure if I have ever done it under pressure of a bandwagon, but I know I have done it at massclaim time.

If I'm bandwagoned to a claim as scum, I've done something seriously wrong.

Regardless, yes, I tend to claim vanilla.

[Xylthixlm]

Post removed. See rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

[Xylthixlm]

Post removed. See rules regarding asking questions of the Mod.

[Xylthixlm]

What makes you think this?

Posts 155 and 159 were what I was referring to when I said that, iirc. BAB just felt like a frustrated townie trying to explain his actions and not having it take. It has that "why can't you see that it's not scummy?" vibe.

He hasn't really been so impressive since then.

Bab, instead of hunting lurkers, make a scumlist. My vote is waiting for you, so you have max two days to change or confirm my suspicions.

I'm not putting a hard limit like "two days" but BAB does need to make a real scumlist, soon, to avoid my vote going back on.

[Xylthixlm]

tajo is town.

[Xylthixlm]

Herodotus 404: Mmm. I like this explanation.
Claus 405, tl;dr version: I'd definitely vote ekiM. Yos2 is scummy but I recoil at the thought of lynching Yos2 on day 1. Point on Thesp is interesting if kind of weak, Thesp?
Claus 406: Hi.

[Xylthixlm]

Haven't read the last few hours post explosion but at a glance it's really weird to see all the posts look like "Blah blah blah Xyl blah blah blah Xyl blah. Blah blah blah blah Xyl blah blah."

This irrelevant observation brought to you by the zwetschenwasser school of mafia play.

[Xylthixlm]

@Xyl

Thanks for the comments. So, wanna form an Ekim wagon?

vote: ekiM

sure

Yos2 is scummy but I recoil at the thought of lynching Yos2 on day 1.

Why?

Good reason: Because he's very useful to the town if he isn't scum, so I'd rather leave him alive and get his input.
Bad reason: Because I don't get to play with Yos2 enough and it would suck if when I finally do he gets lynched day 1.

The last two games I played with Yos, I was town both times, he was scum in one and town in the other, and I was right about him in both instances. So, I trust my gut on him, and so far, I'm not getting a scum feel.

Noting this for future reference.

Well I'm adverse to BaB dying right now. I'm not sure about him, I haven't got proper reads on half the players yet and there are several people coming out of V/LAs right about now.
Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)? After he's been lynched? Frankly I'm not quite understanding why this is a beneficial strategy.

So obv town. Like ridiculously towny.

Whatever you're seeing there, I'm not seeing it.

[Xylthixlm]

I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.

Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?

Yes.

[Xylthixlm]

I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.

Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?

Yes.

So you think I'm a dolt? You've never played with me before...

As I said, I am usually quite skeptical of 'jokes'.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't have time to figure out what's going on here right now

vote: SerialClergyman

[Xylthixlm]

Anyway, the biggest thing right now is KMD's vote for elvis today. There's no way that makes sense at this point if KMD is town; it seems entierly based on a "Elvis attacked me yesterday so I'm going to vote her" attitude that's just inherently scummy.

I fail to see the impossibility of KMD being town motivated.

Bandwagoning someone to a claim, and then trying to drop the wagon and bandwagon someone else once they claim vanilla, is a scum tell, especally on day 1. Those kind of tactics, repeated bandwagon-to-a-claim stuff, are just the easiest way for a scum to flush out town power roles.

Sort-of agree, sort-of disagree. Unvoting because the claim was vanilla is bad, definitely, but there may be other reasons. Do you think that Kmd dropped BaB just because he was vanilla, or do you think there were other reasons?

The thing is, there is absolutly no reason a pro-town person should ever leave a wagon in response to a vanillia claim, especally on day 1. So, yeah, I think it's a scum tell; it's a move scum have reason to do, and vanilla town don't.

Your generalizations are overgeneralized. Your use of "vanilla town" here is odd; faint smell of rolefishing.

In other words, just like I said yesterday, by not stepping in and responding to Elvis' initial post on page 4, and instad hearing KMD's defense and all that, I was able to figure out that KMD is probably scum and Elvis is probably town.

Predictions noted.

[Xylthixlm]

in addition i agree with what yos said, he is town.

Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?

[Xylthixlm]

Jokes like "my cat made me do it"? Or?

Jokes that have a possibility of being interpreted seriously. I won't take someone's word that they "only meant it as a joke".

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?

Me and roflcopter. I haven't really gotten that "OMG sooooo town" feel from anyone yet.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like iamausername's "I was busy so it's not scummy" excuse, btw.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis, what's your feel on Yos?

[Xylthixlm]

RE: Yos, I think he's town, but I admit that part of that is probably because he agrees with me about kmd. I have a problem with thinking people who agree with me are obv town The comments that Yos is not playing to his town meta MAY have some truth to them, but overall, I think that's a really thin reason to vote someone. Also, when people like kmd and serial, who I find scummy, attack Yos, I feel more like Yos is town. It can't hurt to discuss him though. You think he's scummy?

He's giving me a bad gut feel. I can't really speak to his meta, but something is off. It could just be me but it seems like several other people are feeling the same thing...

[Xylthixlm]

It's "I was physically unable to read or post", not "I was busy", fyi.

Even if you're physically unable to post, your relative scumminess can still change.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like the idea of the biggest reason against a person being that 1)Their meta is off and 2)Gut.

Me, I'd be perfectly happy to lynch someone for those reasons alone.

[Xylthixlm]

I should say that I totally agree with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

Oh, and

unvote
vote Yosarian2

[Xylthixlm]

in addition i agree with what yos said, he is town.

Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?

yes. you should not be voting for him.

Fine.

unvote

[Xylthixlm]

There is somethin about Xyl which terribly bugs me, but I can't point a finger to it. Easily listening to rofl jsut now, for example, does not strike me as a pro-town move. But somehow I believe he is actually on our side. Like my head says "scum" and my gut feeling says "town".

I've noticed I have this effect on people.

[Xylthixlm]

Runner up prize: zu faul - you finally get into the game by voting me, mentioning it's a pressure vote and saying nothing else about me. I feel more pressure on me to shave my ugly facial hair than I feel from that limpy vote.

I wish I could be as cool as you, SerialClergyman. Could you send me an autograph?

You should have used a sock puppet.

[Xylthixlm]

Before I forget, post 579 gives me a mild good feeling about zu_Faul, mainly because he's having a normal town reaction to my playstyle.

[Xylthixlm]

I can't believe you're just repeating such obviously untrue statements. You think you can just hide behind a dead townie and that'll let you get away with that?

And you're not voting SerialClergyman, why?

[Xylthixlm]

I should say that I totally agree with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

Uh

What parts of it, exactally?

The parts that are about Yos2.

[Xylthixlm]

I can't believe you're just repeating such obviously untrue statements. You think you can just hide behind a dead townie and that'll let you get away with that?

And you're not voting SerialClergyman, why?

(shrug) Because I'm voting KMD. Can't lynch two scum in one day.

Why Kmd rather than SerialClergyman?

The parts that are about Yos2.

Well, do you agree with the parts that were factually untrue, the parts that were vauge and misleading, or the parts that appear to be a chainsaw defense of KMD?

All of them, but mostly the vague and misleading ones.

[Xylthixlm]

rolf 528. Good news, rabbit is probtown.

me, rabbit, and elvis. We're actually unconfirmed in-thread daymasons.

[Xylthixlm]

SerialClergyman: 3 (elvis_knits, roflcopter, zu_Faul)

This bandwagon is obviously made of win.

vote: SerialClergyman

[Xylthixlm]

Yes, some of my reads are vague. There are 15 players and I haven't fully grokked the gestalt.

No, I'd prefer not to use that format. The scum reads are the important bit, for townies.

Pretty please with sugar on top

[Xylthixlm]

What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?

What harm did it do?

[Xylthixlm]

Anyway I can convince you and your posse to join the burgeoning ekiM wagon? It's hip and there's free drinks.

What's the tl;dr case on ekiM? Something to do with his interactions with elvis, or what?

[Xylthixlm]

I've been totally forgetting that we have five dead townies already.

Final Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

BridgesAndBaloons

: 11 (charter, ekiM, elvis_knits, iamausername,

inHimshallibe

, populartajo, roflcopter, SerialClergyman, Thesp, VP Baltar, Yosarian2)
ekiM: 3 (

BridgesAndBaloons

,

Claus

, Xylthixlm)
elvis_knits: 2 (Kmd4390, zu_Faul)

Claus

: 1 (alexhans)
Thesp: 1 (

Herodotus

)

Not Voting: 2 (Ojanen,

Shabba

)

IGMEO Thesp.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't understand this post. Why does the color-coded vote count make you give an IGMEO Thesp? Not sure if you realize but the counts are alphabetical and not order of votes cast, if that's what you're going by?

Actually I'm going by who certain dead townies suspected, plus an iso-read of Thesp.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, thoughts on the ekiM points I made for your convenience?

They certainly sound solid.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't understand this post. Why does the color-coded vote count make you give an IGMEO Thesp? Not sure if you realize but the counts are alphabetical and not order of votes cast, if that's what you're going by?

Actually I'm going by who certain dead townies suspected, plus an iso-read of Thesp.

You mean Herodotus and Claus? They were masons so it's no suprise they would back each other up like that. I think there was some following going on there.

Can you expand upon what you didn't like in your iso read of Thesp?

He seemed to be avoiding discussion early on. His latest few posts were better.

[Xylthixlm]

i'm not really getting xyl's thesp suspicion.

Meh. I don't have enough to make a case.

[Xylthixlm]

It wasn't anything in the votecount itself. The votecount was just a jumping-off point for reading.

[Xylthixlm]

baltar, if you're not going to come back to the serialclergyman wagon, can you give me a better understanding of why you left it in the first place?

I have a stronger scum read on ekiM and username, though SC's continued neglect here isn't exactly making me

not

want to kill him. Like I said before, I'd like to hear more actual opinions and comments from him so I can either prove or disprove my suspicion.

That's your problem right there. If I think someone hasn't said enough to form an opinion on them, I lynch them.

[Xylthixlm]

here's the gist of the conversation we had -

rofl: you shouldn't vote for yos, he is town
serial: unless you tell me a role based reason to believe he's town, i will continue to vote for him
rofl: fine i'll just lynch you

it was wrapped up in your whole "but you're doing it too" schtick, but the main thrust of "i'll need to see role info before i change my mind" is there, and thats role fishing

Wait what? I don't remember that at all.

[Xylthixlm]

Absolute crap.

the gist of the conversation was

rofl: You're chainsawing for Kmd.
Serial: Well, by that logic YOU'RE chainsawing for Yos2
rofl: Ok, vote.

yeah, see, you just left out the part where you said this:

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have

and this

If his point is that I am chainsawing because I'm defending KMD by attacking Yos2 and he makes that WHILE defending Yos2 by attacking me, he's got some explaining to do to show the difference.

Nope, sorry, don't see the scummy here. He used rhetoric to make the point that you could be accused of doing the same thing you accused him of.

[Xylthixlm]

don't worry, i chortled

the problem is your motivation for asking me to be clearer on why i think yos2 is town. you've already stated that you think I'M town, and you're making it very clear by your statements that you won't accept any reason to think yos2 is town other than some kind of role based information.

I didn't get that from his posts at all.

[Xylthixlm]

Taking quote in context...

5) I particularly like this from rofl:

serial is chainsawing for kmd hard, and at this point attacking yos is a scumtell.

Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't have, looks like you're doing exactly the same thing.

For the record, I did not interpret that as asking about investigation when I read it.

[Xylthixlm]

So what did you think serial meant, xyl?

I think serial was trying to imply that rofl

didn't

have a reason to be sure Yos2 is town, and was therefore being a hypocrite.

But anyways, "some knowledge that I don't have" includes meta knowledge. I don't know why you'd read it as meaning role information. If that's what he meant why wouldn't he have written "information" rather than "knowledge"?

[Xylthixlm]

The Yos2/Serial argument has gone well past the point of diminishing returns. Why keep going?

[Xylthixlm]

Meh

unvote, vote PookyTheMagicalBear

[Xylthixlm]

iaun, nice posting.

Other lynches I'd support right now; zu_faul, VP Baltar and Yosarian2. Feeling most sure about rofl, though.

I could get behind a VP Baltar lynch. I'd definitely rather not lynch zu_faul or roflcopter. Still undecided on Yosarian2.

[Xylthixlm]

VP especially left his vote on me for all of Day 1 while I was conveniently V/LA, meaning he didn't have to commit himself to much else. Read him in iso and he really doesn't commit to much at all textually.

Noting for reference.

[Xylthixlm]

Well this is promising.

unvote, vote: VP Baltar

(L-1)

[Xylthixlm]

Thank you charter for demonstrating what a chainsaw defense is

[Xylthixlm]

It's pretty obvious that VP is going to be a mislynch, so all those voting him need to switch their vote.

It's not obvious to me at all.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't have any reason to think VP Baltar is

not

scum.

Right now I'd be reluctant to lynch... hmm... elvis, Ojanen, roflcopter, Yosarian2, zu_Faul, and maybe Thesp. I'd definitely be on a lynch of charter, ekiM, PookyTheMagicalBear, or VP Baltar. Everyone else is undecided.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't have any reason to think VP Baltar is

not

scum.

What the hell? This isn't how it works at all

Not for you maybe... but I find it works pretty well for me.

[Xylthixlm]

Right now I'd be reluctant to lynch... hmm... elvis, Ojanen, roflcopter, Yosarian2, zu_Faul, and maybe Thesp. I'd definitely be on a lynch of charter, ekiM, PookyTheMagicalBear, or VP Baltar. Everyone else is undecided.

That's an incredibly convenient list there. Top two current vote holders, silent person, and person who's voting you. Why are you suspicious of those four people?

Because I am suspicious of everyone by default, and those four have not done anything to lessen my suspicions.

[Xylthixlm]

Ok then...
What has everyone else done to lessen your suspicions of them so much?

Now you're asking the right question. You're not going to like the answer, but you're asking the right question.

roflcopter: I think I know how roflcopter thinks, and this seems to be his town play. Gut feeling town.

elvis_knits: Gut feeling town. Play is consistent with past games where she was town.

zu_Faul: Gut feeling town. I could probably find some quotes on what's giving me that feeling if I need to.

Ojanen: Gut feeling town. (See a pattern?) Somewhat weaker than the first reads; possibly influenced by buddying.

Yosarian2:

Not

gut feeling town. Feels too logical; can't really get a read on what he's really thinking. I think I'll be able to figure out his alignment later, though, and he's an asset for the town, so I'd rather not lynch him.

Thesp: Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling because he's buddying up to me. That's about it.

Everyone in the "undecided" category either has an inconclusive maybe-town read, or I just haven't looked.

[Xylthixlm]

...am I writing my posts in Latin or something this game? It feels like everything I say this game is getting either misunderstood or misinterpreted by someone.

Noting for my eventual grand analysis of Yosarian2. Usually when

I

get that feeling it's because I'm scum and unconsciously making bullshit arguments.

[Xylthixlm]

...am I writing my posts in Latin or something this game? It feels like everything I say this game is getting either misunderstood or misinterpreted by someone.

Noting for my eventual grand analysis of Yosarian2. Usually when

I

get that feeling it's because I'm scum and unconsciously making bullshit arguments.

So, first you attack me because you think I'm "too logical", now you're saying you think I'm "making bullshit arguments"? Don't those two things contradict each other?

If we're going to argue semantics, I didn't say you're making bullshit arguments.

[Xylthixlm]

I want to see an all-players scum/town list from Yos.

[Xylthixlm]

I want to see an all-players scum/town list from Yos.

[Xylthixlm]

Er, which list is zu_faul actually supposed to be on?

[Xylthixlm]

Lessee. Scumteam is Yos, charter, VP Baltar, and... maybe tajo?

[Xylthixlm]

Anyway, are we going to get any, like, actual scumhunting from you any time this game, or are you going to just keep making snide remarks, unexplained votes, and random sniping at people from the sidelines?

Huh, so Yos

is

scum.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

[Xylthixlm]

zu_Faul is town.

Pulled out some quotes that are the basis for that read (sorry I can't trim it down much more without losing the context). Giving opinions, following uncertain reads, willing to change mind, willing to admit to conflicted read of me. Totally town.

Pretty much all you've done is take pot shots at those that are suspicious of him.

This is plainly wrong. I did not attack anyone because they were accusing BAB. I made a comment at rofl and one at you. I doubt those really qualify as "attacks".
Saying something like this is just wrong.


Are you reading the same game I am reading?

I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.

Why not?

Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.

---

Shabba seems more inexperienced as opposed to scummy. Got to keep in mind for the next days, but I'd give her a chance to make her behaviour better.

Xyl's vote and accusations hop around too much for my taste.

Herodotus' lurker hunt is not yet a good idea.

BAB plays pro-townish; the initial accusations were not bad, but I have not yet seen further indication of his scumminess. Players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example.[/hr]

Well now. Maybe I was wrong all the time, and elvis_knits was right. So I reread BAB in isolation.

The reason for first voting Xyl, then elvis is stupid. I think this is what I meant when I said that the wagon was initially warranted. Then there is a long time where she does nothing scummy (I already said enough times why I disregard the "scum with Xyl" argument). With someone this under pressure and in the spotlight and no further signs of scumminess, I can only rule him town. The vanilla claim... well, it should not be an excuse to not lynch BAB, but I won't vote him because of it.

cum are SerialClergyman and ekiM. ekiM makes terrible points now to compensate for his lack of making points yesterday. Same with Serial; also the stuff I mentioned above.
There is somethin about Xyl which terribly bugs me, but I can't point a finger to it. Easily listening to rofl jsut now, for example, does not strike me as a pro-town move. But somehow I believe he is actually on our side. Like my head says "scum" and my gut feeling says "town".
I had a pro-town read on iamusername before his voting. Going to overthink this, as it was weird (see above).

Regardless - as I'm 'so scummy' with an ominous ellipsis, would you mind sharing the rest of your reasons with everyone?

It's dangerous to go alone.
Take this:



(for the humor-impaired, I am accusing him of fishing)


Also, I reread the BAB-Yos situation. What SerialClergyman says at the top of this page is just untrue. It is not that BAB "just told" Yos about his reasons. It is:
BAB: Yos is scum for X.
Yos: X is false. BAB still has not answered my points. And is scum.
BAB: Nonono, wait I voted you for Y and Z!

BAB did not reply to the points Yos2 made against him.

I mean, in the end Yos2 was wrong, but so were several other players. I don't see how he is scummy because of that. SerialClergyman is misrepresenting what Yos2 said hard.
People, don't play from your memory, read the stuff. And vote SerialClergyman please

[Xylthixlm]

I agree, but I don't have to like it.

Elvis agreeing with bad rolefishing accusation is the second time it's happened. Why do you need someone else to post a hilarious fishing-related image before you confess to sharing the opinion that there was rolefishing going on?

Vp had his wagon grow dramatically yet he lived despite claiming vanilla, something bab couldn't do and something that was hotly debated in favour of lynching yesterday.

Where are all the shocked and outraged people at the failure to lynch vanilla claim today?

Well, I'm totally hammering VP Baltar if he gets to L-1. I just want to make sure that people know Yosarian2 is scum. He's suddenly stopped defending himself to avoid drawing extra attention when I get nightkilled.

[Xylthixlm]

serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon?

making up bad and repetitive reasons to join.

Fixed.

Someone joins the wagon I'm on for bad reasons, I point it out and I'm scummy? That shows I'm unsure about the situation, not that I have any knowledge of the wagon being good or bad.

Mind you, if it means Zu recognises me as town and rofl and elvis are the ones who don't, I think I'm ok with it.

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

Okay, SerialClergyman is town.

[Xylthixlm]

Your theory has a Pooky-sized hole in it

[Xylthixlm]

Unless your theory is that everyone I've voted is someone who someone else has at some point expressed suspicion of, in which case ... yes, and?

[Xylthixlm]

None of your votes look like you are trying to strike off on your own to try and find scum.

Your theory has a Yosarian2-sized hole in it

why haven't you done anything else to try to pressure him, not even a "and we still need to hear from Pooky, I'd still be willing to lynch him if he dosn't post" one-liner or anything?

I thought that part was obvious

[Xylthixlm]

Yos: you keep fighting battles, and I'll keep voting you.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

VP, absolutely.

[Xylthixlm]

Dislike this attempt at scumhunting. First, I dont like the "Ive been forgetting clause" What kind of player forgets that four people died day 1?

A very lazy one.

Second, where does that random IGMEO Thesp come from?

Didn't I explain that in a later post?

So, what did you dislike in that iso?

Yeah, I did. And I explained this in a later post too. He was avoiding discussion early on.

Can you expand on who certain dead townies suspected?

I believe elvis nailed the answer to this one. "Certain dead townies" was Claus and Herodotus.

I dont get this, specially when you unvoted Yos early today. (Im assuming for the same reason I pegged rolf as town).

I unvoted because I had a weak read and rofl claimed to have a strong one. Now I have a strong read and rofl is crazy.

What makes you sure Yos is scum?

I thought I explained that too? In bits and pieces, anyways. Mostly a gut feel, plus his switch from defending every little point in the RVS to pretty much ignoring a more serious read later.

Where does baltar fit in all this and why did you unvote him after you put him at l-1?

I explained

that

too. Baltar and Yos are scumbuddies. I want to make sure everyone knows Yos is scum, so I'm voting him. I still support a VP Baltar lynch.

I mean, I don't mind you asking questions, but it would be nice if you'd at least do an iso read on me and see if I've already answered them. It's not like I'm a wall of text poster.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, what on earth is there in this quote that makes you think zu is town? The others you bring up, I think I can see where you're coming from, but this just looks to me like someone trying to back out of taking responsibility for their actions.

It was the last bit, the "Are you reading the same game I am reading?".

Now that you bring it up I have no idea

why

I felt like that came from town, but I did.

[Xylthixlm]

It has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes.

Very true. I like that way of putting it.

---

So far the last page or so has not changed my reads on anyone.

---

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

[Xylthixlm]

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

If Yos and VP are both scum, what's the point of derailing a wagon on one of them to get votes on the other?

I'm pretty sure the VP Baltar wagon can take care of itself.

[Xylthixlm]

And considering your vote history, why havent you voted him then?

I bet you can figure it out if you try.

How is Thesp IGMEO related with Claus and Hero being dead?

Both of them suspected Thesp.

Why didnt you ask rolf why he had that strong read?

Because he's roflcopter.

How did he convince you?

Because he's roflcopter.

Why are you asking for more Yos votes instead of supporting the wagon that you put at L-1?

Because everyone else is busily avoiding taking any real position on Yos and I want them to stop. At this rate he is going to muddle through with no one really thinking he's town but no one willing to lynch him, until he pulls off some spectacular gambit and everyone will think he's town and then he'll win as scum and I will be

Your answers are meh. I dont know what you are thinking and why.

So ask more specific questions?

Also why did you vote for Yos based on a weak read?

Why shouldn't I?

[Xylthixlm]

I dont remember Thesp avoiding discussion day 1. IMO, Thesp day 1 is pretty solid. Can you quote what gives you that impression? And considering your vote history, why havent you voted him then?

This question bugs me. "Your case on Thesp is weak, and why didn't you vote him for it?" Why did you need to ask that?

[Xylthixlm]

tajo: would you be happier if I had said "I don't have any actual evidence to say Thesp is scum, but I think I should be paying closer attention to him" rather than "IGMEO Thesp"?

[Xylthixlm]

VP: how do you feel about Pooky?

[Xylthixlm]

his ridiculous "I'm xyl so I don't have to do any work in this game" is a terrible excuse for everyone to label him as town.

VP: how do you feel about Pooky?

I wish he would post. Kind of hard to form much of an opinion from nothing.

Who do you find scummier, me or Pooky? Why?

[Xylthixlm]

The correct answer to the "should he have claimed" debate is "never spontaneously claim vanilla".

[Xylthixlm]

"refused to give any reasons"? Quote please.

[Xylthixlm]

Elvis: a vanilla townie should just go to the gallows without claiming, unless there's a mass claim or "claim or die" ultimatum. They certainly shouldn't claim just because they're at L-1.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, elvis is still town.

roflcopter, what do you think of Yos's scumlist?

[Xylthixlm]

Also, Xyl, did you ever give reasons why you voted VP Baltar?

Actually no, it appears I haven't. I did an iso read and decided he wasn't obviously town enough to save. I was also curious who would do the inevitable panicked unvote (it turned out to be elvis). Somewhere in there I reevaluated ekiM too and decided that Baltar was more likely to be scum than ekiM.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl gives a vauge, iffy looking list of his suspects, which did happen to include me.

This?

Lessee. Scumteam is Yos, charter, VP Baltar, and... maybe tajo?

Anyone else think that was a "vague, iffy looking list"? Raise your hand.

[Xylthixlm]

What's the significance of the 'panicked unvote', Xyl?

Person who makes it is town.

I was kind of disappointed it was elvis, since I already thought she was town.

[Xylthixlm]

Fine, I guess I've made my point

unvote, vote VP Baltar

Don't forget that Yos is scum

[Xylthixlm]

Charter, good luck with that... I think too many townies have gotten good gut reads on me, but maybe you can convince them they're all wrong?

[Xylthixlm]

Well, leaving out roflcopter, who despite his reputation as a gut player hasn't gotten any better at reading me

[Xylthixlm]

I have a question for Yos: which of my town reads do you disagree with, and why?

[Xylthixlm]

Interesting, I missed that. elvis?

[Xylthixlm]

A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.

So most of your reason for thinking him town is because of a one game meta? Have you ever seen him as scum? How do you know his play isn't similar regardless of alignment?

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

roflcopter was totally convinced I was scum in that game too, btw.

[Xylthixlm]

So I don't feel like wasting my time doing a reread of VP at this point.

Bad elvis. You're off my townlist.

[Xylthixlm]

It might not prove I'm town but it sure contradicts the argument that my play proves I'm scum, doesn't it?

My point is that without balanced research it can't really be considered point in your town favor column. Surely you can appreciate that.

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments. I'd say that's worth considering.

[Xylthixlm]

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.

wow, if there's one terrible fallacious argument i hate more than all others its "you were wrong about me last game so somehow that means you're wrong about me this game too" and all of its awful variants, like the above that seems meant to convince everyone else that since i was wrong about you in mafia 96 i must also be wrong about you here.

You said the same thing in mafia 96, except there it was about being wrong in war in heaven.

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you you're wrong. That's impossible. But the fact that you pretty consistently think I'm scum when I'm not is probably relevant to other players considering your arguments.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.

No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.

It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town arguments"

even if I play the same way as scum

. That should be transparently obvious. "He wouldn't do X" is proved false by an instance of me doing X, where in this case X is "playing this way as town". How I have played in other games is totally irrelevant.

Sure, it doesn't disprove the more subtle "he would be less likely to play this way as town" argument, but that's not what I said.

[Xylthixlm]

tajo: I missed the contrast between elvis's reactions to BAB and to VP Baltar.

[Xylthixlm]

I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.

wait, i've done that?

Haven't you? I'm pretty sure you have.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't remember where you did it before. All I know is that when I saw you defending Yos I thought "he's pretending his gut read is based on role info again".

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: That's

still

bad elvis.

Do the reread of VP.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't remember where you did it before. All I know is that when I saw you defending Yos I thought "he's pretending his gut read is based on role info again".

It's possible I have you confused with someone else with a similar playstyle...

...

... unlikely.

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: That's

still

bad elvis.

Do the reread of VP.

When the wagon proves to me VP is town? Why would I need to do a reread on a town player?

See, I've used that argument before and been wrong.

Do the reread of VP.

[Xylthixlm]

If you make posts that long, which ekiM has done continually throughout the game, I think it should be autolynch.

I dunno, I think I agreed with everything in that post.

I might have skimmed some bits in the middle where he switched to using italics though.

[Xylthixlm]

BTW, Yos: I know we've had a theoretical discussion on the virtues of defending yourself vs not defending myself. I believe you took the position that other players won't defend you so you have to defend yourself.

I would just like to point out that at least three other players have rebutted various arguments against me here.

[Xylthixlm]

Please just ignore roflcopter and his "you must be scum for not getting my obvious hint about yos" bullshit. Don't even talk about it.

[Xylthixlm]

Hey roflcopter, help me understand how you think. Why did you think I was scum in mafia 96?

[Xylthixlm]

Meh. Scum are Yos, VP Baltar, charter, and tajo. Lynch them next.

Oh, and many of the arguments against me are scummy bullshit, so take a look at who was attacking and who was defending, and how. Particularly vp vs ekim. Ekim's right there.

Charter's first post against me was chock full of bullshit too.

Little tip: town tend to think I'm ambiguous leaning town. Scum tend to think I'm incredibly scummy and an easy mislynch. It's not 100% but the pattern is there.

[Xylthixlm]

Rofl: okay then, how am I playing differently here?

[Xylthixlm]

Everyone who said some variation on "but xyl is just playing so transparently" is town, btw. If any of them are lynched I will be

wroth

after the game.

[Xylthixlm]

Sup elvis.

Word on the street is that you don't like wagons that grow really quickly.

Why so Xylvoting?

Sup.

Xyl wagon didn't grow quickly.

Too many townies with gut town reads on me.

[Xylthixlm]

zu_faul was one iirc

[Xylthixlm]

Rofl: okay then, how am I playing differently here?

the biggest thing is exactly what i said when i voted for you

not much time at the moment, i'm not happy to see that the serial wagon has completely evaporated.

unvote, vote: xyl

he should know better than to vote for yos again at this point

Uhhuh. I think your theory of people's reactions to unexplained information has a minor flaw.

[Xylthixlm]

Meh. Scum are Yos, VP Baltar, charter, and tajo. Lynch them next.

Oh, and many of the arguments against me are scummy bullshit, so take a look at who was attacking and who was defending, and how. Particularly vp vs ekim. Ekim's right there.

Charter's first post against me was chock full of bullshit too.

Little tip: town tend to think I'm ambiguous leaning town. Scum tend to think I'm incredibly scummy and an easy mislynch. It's not 100% but the pattern is there.

This is the classic 'you've caught me, but for bullshit reasons' giving up post.

Whatever you say. It's there for people to read after I get lynched, if I get lynched.

[Xylthixlm]

Sorry for being away for so long, I kept putting off a reread

Vote Xyl

I think him and Thesp are scum together.

Xyl is probably scum.
Answering Claus's question directed at Thesp.

This is scummy, why? I didn't answer for Thesp.

Loads of pointless posts and posts about the setup early on.

Fair enough

Waffles on the 4 scum or 5, EK or kmd debates (post 105)

I didn't waffle so much as actively discourage the 4 scum or 5 debate.

376 is distancing himself from the mislynch.

You don't know me very well, do you.

Thesp
168 is bizarre, especially saying he appreciates Claus's close reading, after Claus says he's getting scummy vibes from Thesp.
474, doesn't even care about BAB's suspicions.

Posts 405 and 406 of Claus are probably the best I've seen upon rereading. Even better is Xyl's response in 413. It definately strengthens the connection between him and Thesp.

So if one of us comes up town will you think the other is town too?

End of day one. Begin day two.

507, Where did your "I think Thesp is a good citizen" come from ZuFaul (other than left field)?
ZuFaul also hindered just about everything he could day one, which EK touched on.

524 is a good post by Ojanen

529, Xyl is totally scum.

Scummy because I was busy or scummy because I was bandwagonning?

534, Thesp has too many people he's willing to vote for, but he doesn't vote any. It looks to me like he doesn't want to pressure them or find out their alignment, just wait until a wagon forms, then try and lynch the easiest candidate.

549, Why did Xyl even make this post? He says absolutely nothing. I don't think he was being addressed either.

Your idea of "absolutely nothing" is peculiar

631, ANOTHER crappy bandwagon vote from Xyl. He just bandwagons when he can. He doesn't even try to figure out people's alignment.

Really. How many opinions on people's alignments have I given? Quite a few, I think.

673, looks like Xyl is setting himself up to vote for Ekim if it becomes convenient for him.

Apparently trying to understand the arguments is scummy.

739, A completely useless vote from Xyl.

A vote on a lurker is never a useless vote.

My scumspicions:
Xyl
Thesp
ZuFaul


I think Ekim is town. I don't understand why Ekim is being voted at all. It is clearly scumdriven. I don't like the Social wagon either, I think Yosarian's vote on it boils down to OMGUS because even if SC exaggerated his reasons for finding Yos suspicious, that's not enough to warrant a vote on him from Yos. I can comment on the other votes, but Yos's was the one I saw after I decided SC is town.

Page 31 has changed my entire perception so far. The points against VP make sense, but he has a lot of the people I find suspicious on his wagon. Now that I get to page 32, I see that I am right with my Xyl vote.

So... the reasons for the wagon is good but you won't vote for it because you don't like the wagon itself. This is a horrible excuse for staying off the wagon.

TL;DR of my scatterbrained post.
- Xyl is scum.
- Thesp is a good candidate for his buddy.

[Xylthixlm]

And the pooky vote came before the VP Baltar vote, so... Kmd, here's your wagon for analysis:

Xylthixlm: 7 (charter, roflcopter, Yosarian2, PookyTheMagicalBear, VP Baltar, populartajo, elvis_knits)

Quote removed. Don't quote the mod. - Mod

[Xylthixlm]

Let's do BAB from day 1 too


BridgesAndBaloons: 11 (Thesp, charter, inHimshallibe, SerialClergyman, roflcopter, ekiM,

Ojanen

,

Xylthixlm

,

Kmd

, Yosarian2, elvis_knits, iamusername, VP Baltar, populartajo)

Quote removed. Don't quote the mod. - Mod

[Xylthixlm]

Meh. If you want to see how I got those ordered vote counts just do an all posts search for mith. I also had the order & post numbers of votes between vote counts but I guess those got deleted.

[Xylthixlm]

One of those is me, that is right. But I also said that it was only gut and that my head told me something different than my stomach.

This is an entirely normal townie reaction to my playstyle.

[Xylthixlm]

Ironic that now that Xyl is at L-1 he wants to be helpful and sort of try and scumhunt. Too late I say.

Apparently asking questions and giving opinions is not scumhunting, but putting votes in order is.

Wow I never knew that. Thanks charter!

[Xylthixlm]

I'm trying to figure out charter.

He ignores all the posts where I ask questions.
He ignores all the posts where I say that someone is town, or scum.
He ignores all the posts where I weigh in on an argument, or calls them "absolutely nothing" and asks why I posted.
But... when I put some votes in order, he says that I'm finally scumhunting.

What the hell?

[Xylthixlm]

One of those is me, that is right. But I also said that it was only gut and that my head told me something different than my stomach.

This is an entirely normal townie reaction to my playstyle.

As much as I appreciate this, this is no statement about your alignment; to me it seems like it is intended as one, so I am making this clear.

No. It's a statement about

your

alignment.

[Xylthixlm]

Seems like you didn't care if I suspected you as long as you weren't about to be lynched

You're absolutely right.

In your experience, who worries more about being lynched: town, or scum?

[Xylthixlm]

This day certainly has been

very

interesting.

Just here at the end, we've got a bunch of people who say I'm obviously scum vs a bunch of people who say I'm obviously town.

On the other wagon, we have a bunch of people who say VP Baltar is obviously scum vs a bunch of people who say ... well, actually, I don't recall anyone saying VP Baltar is obviously town, except a couple people who think he's town because of the wagon.

Who thinks VP Baltar is obviously town?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm trying to figure out charter.

He ignores all the posts where I ask questions.

Where do you ask me questions?

I didn't say posts where I ask

you

questions. Your position is that I'm not scumhunting. I've asked questions of other people. Why are the questions I've asked of other people not scumhunting?

[Xylthixlm]

Pretty much. I tried asking you why you wanted to lynch certain people before, and after I played 20 questions, you gave me a load of garbage that amounted to "gut", which means nothing to me.

I think I said one of your posts said absolutely nothing, I can explain if you want. Most of your posts dont have any explanation, and I've given up trying to find any from you, so yeah, I do.

So, let me see if I've got this straight. Even if ask questions and give opinions, as long as I don't explain

why

to your satisfaction I'm not scumhunting.

Is that an accurate summary of your position?

[Xylthixlm]

Ironic that now that Xyl is at L-1 he wants to be helpful and sort of try and scumhunt. Too late I say.

But... when I put some votes in order, he says that I'm finally scumhunting.

Well no. You were being helpful, but still letting kmd do the scumhunting for you.

Okay... so I'm finally being helpful. Which implies, I guess, that you think I haven't been helpful at all up until now.

On the other hand, when I vote Pooky (who has by any measure been

completely useless

), you call my vote... "completely useless".

What gives?

[Xylthixlm]

I've kind of got the feeling that you've been deliberately trying to be unreadable this game

If I was trying to be unreadable people wouldn't be getting the gut feeling I'm town.

Seriously, I am totally capable of playing a highly logical, conventional, verbose, argumentative game. But when I do,

then

I am totally unreadable, because I can do that as scum too.

This is how I play when I'm trying to let people get a gut read on me.

weren't not even been willing to answer simple questions about your motives when you voted me the first time

That? It was a RVS vote for flimsy reasons. I wanted to see your reaction. But I couldn't exactly say that at the time, or I wouldn't get good reactions.

[Xylthixlm]

Little tip: town tend to think I'm ambiguous leaning town. Scum tend to think I'm incredibly scummy and an easy mislynch. It's not 100% but the pattern is there.

Lol.

You laugh but it's true. I do actions that are individually scummy but the whole pattern is protown. A townie who is trying to reach a decision on me without preconceptions sees the whole pattern and gets a gut town read. On the other hand, a scum already knows that I'm town, so they dismiss the gut read and only see the individual scummy actions. It's like one of those optical illusions that changes depending on how far away you are.

[Xylthixlm]

You voted someone who has said two words this game. Did you ask them any questions for them to answer?? Noooo. Did you give a reason for voting them? Nooo. Did you try and make anybody else see the same way as you? Nooo.

If you had to take a guess, why do you think I voted Pooky? What are the possible reasons?

[Xylthixlm]

This game, I have constantly not known wtf you were doing

Read VP Baltar!

[Xylthixlm]

This is a BS argument. Xyl is an easy target? People attacking you immediately turn into scum and the people defending your "obv towniness" become town, right Xyl? Nice subtly OMGUS there.

Not very subtle actually. But see next point.

Not all the universe turns around you, Xyl. First, if you are town, which I doubt at this point, and if what you are saying is correct, then are you saying that this game has 7 scum, and that all have to be in your wagon. For obvious reasons, I doubt this is true.

Do you know what "not 100%" means? Anyways, I picked out the scumteam back when I was at 3 or 4 votes, and lo, everyone I named is now on my wagon. I guess I just did a preemptive OMGUS.

Xyl, you are scummy. Deal with it. I dont understand people clearing you for no valid reasons, tbh. At the very least I would put you at neutral.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that the people clearing me actually have reasons. Did you ask?

So that you can understand what I am thinking here is what bugs me about you:

First, L-1ing someone for zero reason and zero previous suspicions. Regardless of Baltar alignment.

I did have a reason, several in fact. I just didn't explain them in the post where I voted.

Second, leaving that wagon and trying to form a new wagon for terribly weak reasons.

My gut is not a weak reason to me.

Coming back to the wagon when the pressure started to grow against you.

Thesp asked nicely.

Unvoting Yos because rolf asked you to, then calling rolf crazy to finally tell him "I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it". Why in hell did you buy it the first time then? Its inconsistent.

I took it as a rofl gut read both times. The first time I trusted his gut over mine, because he claimed a strong read and I had a weak one.

Calling elvis town in page 38 for a weak reason ("panicked unvote") and supporting an attack against her in page 39. You just dont support an attack against someone you think is town.

I'm confused. What I did was ask elvis to answer the case against her. Was I supposed to have tunnelvision and not want more information just because I had a town read?

I dont get why you waited 10 pages to answer for charter accusations. I dont get why you waited 44 pages for trying to analyse the game.

Why did I need to answer the charter accusations immediately? The evidence against them was totally available to anyone who looked. I'd rather have someone else defend me instead of defending myself - that way the exchange gives info about three people instead of two.

Answer this question. How do you play as scum? Does your little tip work also in those games?

As scum? I'm more logical and have a more conventional playstyle. I do fewer blatantly scummy things. I'm a little bit less likely to spontaneously drop unexplained gut reads, although I've been working on that in my scum play. I draw less attention; people tend to just assume I'm town and not look very closely, and if they do look closely they're likely to get a gut scum read (see mafia 95). My little tip definitely doesn't work when I'm scum.

[Xylthixlm]

VP Baltar's greatest hits

Who else is scummy?

ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.

VP especially left his vote on me for all of Day 1 while I was conveniently V/LA, meaning he didn't have to commit himself to much else. Read him in iso and he really doesn't commit to much at all textually.

In VP's arguments with iamausername, VP comes out looking bad to me. Read them.

Wow this is a pretty stellar case you have here. After 27 pages of text, the best case you can come up with is:

1) You don't think I'm scumhunting enough
2) You disagree with my points

Teach me your secrets, master.

This looks like a royal case of OMGUS, since Xyl and I were the ones who started the pressure on you. Still would back an ekiM lynch in the worst way.

Unvote, Vote: Xyl

Scum team: ekiM, IAAUN, Xyl, Thesp

Wow, this is so much easier than actually explaining myself. Everyone on the ekiM wagon should come over to the new and improved Xyl wagon.

Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.

No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.

[Xylthixlm]

I asked you twice exactly what argument SC made about me that you agreed with, and twice you avoided the question.

My answer was all of them. That's not avoiding the question.

[Xylthixlm]

I've kind of got the feeling that you've been deliberately trying to be unreadable this game

If I was trying to be unreadable people wouldn't be getting the gut feeling I'm town.

Uh...I'm pretty sure that's not an argument for, well, anything. A few people don't think you're scum, several people do think you're scum.

There is a difference between not thinking I'm scum and thinking I am totally obviously town. If I am unreadable as you say,

why are some people thinking I'm obviously town

?

[Xylthixlm]

All of them? There wasn't anything in that post you didn't agree with

That's what I said.

all you've done is vote with no reasons

Speaking of factually incorrect... maybe you're thinking of Pooky?

[Xylthixlm]

Bold added:

I should say that I

totally agree

with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

The parts that are about Yos2.

Well, do you agree with the parts that were factually untrue, the parts that were vauge and misleading, or the parts that appear to be a chainsaw defense of KMD?

All of them

, but mostly the vague and misleading ones.

I don't see how this is the slightest bit unclear.

[Xylthixlm]

Here's Yos's response to SerialClergyman's post which I agreed with.

Yos's defense in summary:

• BAB (dead townie) was lying and bullshitting to make Yos look scummy.
  
• BAB's vote was pure OMGUS. All other reasons he gave were bullshit and lies.
  
• SerialClergyman was lying too.
  
• BAB's actions were scummy lashing out at his attackers. BAB was lying and cheating.
  
• Anyone who unvoted BAB is scummy.
  
• Assorted bullshit and strawmanning.

Sorry. I read that stuff myself. SerialClergyman was right about all of it. Yos's attempt to make it sound like everyone else - even a

dead townie

- was lying and bullshitting just to make Yos look bad stinks to high heaven.

[Xylthixlm]

I think I'm switching to back up a VP Baltar lynch. This is the point of the game where one starts to get a better picture of a bigger scope. VP would fit to a "vague scum" archetype.
His posts and points have just been so very small in a way. The majority of his posting doesn't feel like he's actually trying to construct information.
He spends the whole of day 1 saying from the sidelines that BaB is a decent lynch but never actually bringing points against him, and then agrees with a couple of points in the L-1 post and says overload of information.

You think the BAB lynch is decent, but don't comment on how scummy you actually find him. He's claimed vanilla so of course it's a decent lynch. Is he actually scummy to you? You don't tell us. And you hedge with "might provide information".

And you have "minor tinges without a great read" on two very easy targets.

Also, when I was voting username, VP also voted username, but for totally different reasons that I never really understood. Something about iamausername asking BaB for a claim, and VP saying that was not clear iam intended to vote BaB? That point is sort of... "so what" to me. I think most of his points have been sort of convoluted/weak to me, which makes me think he's fabricating.

I haven't found anything in VP's play to latch onto as powerfully protown and in my experience with him as a player usually there is something. And I especially like the fact that he's getting quite a lot aobut the thread wrong (mixing up certain days, mentioning a rising tide that wasn't etc) I'll gladly lend my vote to this worthy cause.

[Xylthixlm]

Here's Yos's response to SerialClergyman's post which I agreed with.

Yos's defense in summary:

• BAB (dead townie) was lying and bullshitting to make Yos look scummy.
  
• BAB's vote was pure OMGUS. All other reasons he gave were bullshit and lies.
  
• SerialClergyman was lying too.
  
• BAB's actions were scummy lashing out at his attackers. BAB was lying and cheating.
  
• Anyone who unvoted BAB is scummy.
  
• Assorted bullshit and strawmanning.

Sorry. I read that stuff myself. SerialClergyman was right about all of it. Yos's attempt to make it sound like everyone else - even a

dead townie

- was lying and bullshitting just to make Yos look bad stinks to high heaven.

I admit to being slightly drunk right now, but I'm confused. Are you trying to sling mud at Yos again?

You may consider that my first actual case on Yos.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, I hear Yos is town, so... wtf.

I see no evidence to support that conclusion.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, I hear Yos is town, so... wtf.

I see no evidence to support that conclusion.

Don't make me FOS you when I'm already voting you.

Vote VP Baltar and then FOS me.

[Xylthixlm]

Rofl: okay then, how am I playing differently here?

the biggest thing is exactly what i said when i voted for you

You're voting me because I don't believe you when you say that Yos is town.... that's not really a case of playing differently here, but anyways.

How

else

am I playing differently here than I did in mafia 96?

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, assume rofl is a town pr of some kind with role information on yos suggesting yostown. What changes in your take on the game?

First, I decide that roflcopter is a complete idiot for claiming power role info to save someone who only had a single vote on them instead of waiting for the bandwagon to grow to get more information. Then I make sure that everyone else knows my opinion, loudly and repeatedly. I seriously consider lynching roflcopter just to check that he's not lying, because I don't think he's stupid enough to do that, but elvis_knits talks me out of it.

After that... I dunno. I haven't thought about it.

[Xylthixlm]

Frankly, hinting at role info without claiming it (softclaiming) is a very scummy move, and if I thought roflcopter was serious I would be pressuring him to actually claim something concrete. The reason I didn't is that I don't think he has any chance of being serious.

[Xylthixlm]

How does it affect your scumlist?

I'd still be pretty sure on charter and VP Baltar. Yos would be off it, of course, and probably tajo.

Who else would be on it ... I'm not sure. Definitely Pooky.

This is just off the top of my head. I don't think too deeply about hypotheticals because it tends to leave subconscious biases that throw off my gut.

[Xylthixlm]

Ok, and If that's not your current feeling about rofl, what is? A townie overselling a gut town read or a scumbuddy?

The former. Pretty sure roflcopter is town, although iirc I've never seen him as scum so discount appropriately.

[Xylthixlm]

Meh. Scum are Yos, VP Baltar, charter, and tajo. Lynch them next.

So... three scum right. I got charter wrong. I was half-wrong about roflcopter, I knew he wasn't cop but made the wrong guess on scum vs bluffing townie. And I was totally wrong about zu_Faul.

---

Well played all. It's nice being in a game with such good players. I'd rather have played longer, but it was fun to read even after I died. Fortunately the townies made all the right decisions, except Thesp. (Honestly I would have lynched Pooky instead of Thesp.)

---

elvis_knits: for future reference, when I tell you to read, you should probably read. Or just take my word for it, either one works. Lynching me because you're too lazy is

not

a good option.

charter: congratulations, you led a lynch on someone who got most of the scum right for "not scumhunting". I think you have room for improvement there. Also, do you believe me now about looking scummier to scum than I do to townies?

roflcopter: softclaiming to save Yos from a

one vote wagon

? You can do better than that.

roflcopter, populartajo, zu_Faul: chaining the scum together like that is a

really bad idea

. Particularly when the last link in the chain isn't a cop. If you confirm someone people think is scum, they'll just lynch you first unless you claimed a very useful role such as cop.

Yos: yes, I could have probably saved myself if I had defended earlier and harder. But then I wouldn't have sucked all the scum onto my wagon like a giant tar baby. I think pushing my lynch ended up hurting you guys way, way more than it helped.

[Xylthixlm]

Sorry, that post is snarkier than I intended, I'm in a rush and didn't have tome to edit

[Xylthixlm]

Btw Elvis, loving bunnies is fine, but never put weight on soft claims. Ever. It just leaves you open to being manipulated by scum.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't want to convince you. I want you to pay attention and decide independently. Making cases is not necessary to win a game of mafia. Frankly, I'm right much more often when I'm going on gut and can't make a coherent case than when I can.

[Xylthixlm]

BTW, my normal technique for making cases on IRC is repeating "lynch him!" or "hammer!" until someone does. It actually seems to work pretty well. Sometimes I copy and paste a few lines from that player without explaination.

[Xylthixlm]

SC: I do try to look protown myself, but I do it by being open about what I'm thinking (even if I know it will look scummy or unconvincing). It's a style of play that I know is extremely hard to fake convincingly as scum - at least against players who follow their gut.

As scum I tend to dial it back and play in a way that is superficially townie but hard to get a gut read on.

[Xylthixlm]

Yeah Xyl, my play day two was completely wrong. Don't think anything I said was right. Only redeeming factor to lynching you was it greatly helped lynching Balter.

It just seemed that if you were town, you would have tried defending yourself before you were threatened to be lynched.

If I ever defend myself before I'm at L-2, that's a sure sign that I think the person attacking me is obvtown.

[Xylthixlm]

Overall town play was very good this game. The BAB lynch was unfortunate because we didn't really get much good info from it, but the rest of the game was spectacular. I'm a little bit annoyed at getting lynched for the first time ever as town (in forum mafia), but I do think my lynch ended up being good for the town. So all's well that ends well.

I need to read the quicktopics, I want to know if scum were planning a WIFOM strategy of being too obvious to be actual buddies from the very beginning or if it just happened that way.

[Xylthixlm]

"Xylthixlm - good gut and decent reasoner, not a very active poster and he will only post when its necessary."

Bwuh?

"A good idea for this game is that Elvis, Xyl, inhim and some others use voting patterns information like law to find scum."

Bwuh...

"I get a power role vibe from Xyl. I dont remember him being so liberal with his votes so that means he is prob trying to hide something."

Bwuh!

"Consider also that some people Xyl for example considers that softclaims are a scummy maneuver and youll probably have to fullclaim tomorrow if we go with this plan."

Bwuh.

"this isn't the sort of softclaim that xyl will try to force a fullclaim from, because i'm not doing it to save my own ass, just trying to steer attemtion away from someone else."

Bwuh.

"i don't think anyone would ever consider the fact that our entire scumteam might have been on that xyl lynch, and lets keep it that way."

Bwuh.

[Xylthixlm]

imma lynch xyl every game i see him from now on

Bwuh?!

[Xylthixlm]

It was pretty gutsy for the scum to protect and confirm each other like they did. I've always wanted to do that but been too chicken. I think it could have worked if they had bussed someone. Could have given them some town cred and confused everything a bit more.

looking at how yos-rofl-zu went down should cure you of that. Role confirming a buddy mostly just gets you lynched instead, even if you aren't very scummy.

(It can work, but you only if you use an elaborate claim that people think you couldn't be making up.)

[Xylthixlm]

well, I think the lovers role essentially required buddying from the scum team. I think it got a little bit overboard when tajo got involved, but the scum team did have significant interest in stopping their lynches as long as possible.

Having yos and rofl support each other was fine, although the way rofl went about it was horrible. But having another scum come in to save them was just throwing good after bad.