Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[Scien]

The meow meow meow Vote count

Hewitt - ElectricBadger
Scien - Farside22

Not Voting: Nikanor, Hewitt, Maemuki, Scien, Canada, ODDin, XofElf

Lots of love
Haylxxx

1) What are you talking about?! Where did I backtrack on RBT? When did you ever say I did? You said I backtracked in the middle of you complaining about me switching my vote. Of course I am going to assume that you meant that the vote move itself was a backtrack from Fuzzy towards RBT. I honestly have no idea what you are going on about this time.

2) See here you go. You are talking about my reasons for the vote switch, and then call it backtracking. You are implying that the vote switch was backtracking. You are saying something else?

3) Er...

[Scien]

I want to hear from RBT about why she thought the mass claim was a good idea in day one.
I also want to hear the reasoning why she is gung-ho about lynching what appears to be outed masons.

Compare that to RBT. A) She is anti-town, and that explains her apparent (although non-concrete) desire to hit m/m groups. B) She is town, and that apparent desire is weird, but gives us no motives.

If RBT is town, I can't see her having that desire. I know she is saying she doesn't, but given what Farside suggested, I think it is probably likely. Plus she would have a good motive to want to blanket lynch a m or m group if she has the opposite anti-town alignment.

Also, the m/m groups should have slightly less chances to be scum due to being invalid for two of the positions, and possibly 3 of the 4 if their partner got one. I know it isn't a blanket card that should save them. But pure statistics should suggest that a given m/m would be less likely scum than any other person.

So I guess I changed my mind. But I still am looking at you. You have been fairly unproductive today (pot calling kettle black I am sure, but my concern stands)

Oh ya, I never said I had griefs with RBT. Sigh. Outright lies this time. Vote tiem.

Vote: Farside

Lie's at worst, unhelpful tunneling at best.

[Benmage]

Scien

how do you currently feel about Oddin. Did you happen to notice his point against farside wherein she gave a definition on how scum act, the opposite how she was acted so in a way subtly saying shes town. Yet Oddin made a definition of his own on how town should, which one could argue reflected subtly town onto himself. Double standard aye?

How about his clear statements of being against things like "I'm town" Which you've said, and which hes ignored.

[Benmage]

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that

as a townie

, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

Oddin ignores again.

ODDin, what exactly do you want me to comment on? I can go reread it to derive meaning if you want me to, but it looked like a bunch of 'meh' to me. (I'm taking your advice and trying to start conversations that interest me, since I have having problems with the ones ongoing. Yes I know that this advice wasn't directed at me.)

Well, farside presented a case against me. I'd be happy if you said whether you agree with it or not (and why).

Why Scien specifically?

Why are you interested in where I stand in the you vs Farside discussion anyway? What does my opinions gain you? Are you looking for an ally? Are you wanting to stir Farside up? I kind of find it odd that I was polled here. Why am I so special?

^^Here’s the coaching

I want everybody's opinion, not only yours. You happened to catch my eye because you were posting at the moment, but haven't really said anything on this issue.

Phew, good save.

[farside22]

1) What are you talking about?! Where did I backtrack on RBT? When did you ever say I did? You said I backtracked in the middle of you complaining about me switching my vote. Of course I am going to assume that you meant that the vote move itself was a backtrack from Fuzzy towards RBT. I honestly have no idea what you are going on about this time.

2) See here you go. You are talking about my reasons for the vote switch, and then call it backtracking. You are implying that the vote switch was backtracking. You are saying something else?

3) Er...

1) post 474 stop dodging

2) no I'm not


Also you post in 551 was before you stated this:

^ I think that this is a stretch. I made the same one.

Between this comment, and the immediate vote for fuzzy on Hewitt's claim, I was under the impression that the 'I want to see masons/monks flip' was a motivation for the vote. However when I questioned about it, RBT immediately said that she never said she wanted to lynch the m/ms. Going back and trying to prove her wrong, I couldn't find her pushing this reason for her vote ever.

It's an assumption, and a decent one, but its not very concrete. You think the assumption is strong enough to lynch RBT over?

Assuming the assumption is correct, why is it more likely that RBT is scum, over just wanting to pursue bad play?

IMO, I think a fuzzy lynch would give us more information over a RBT lynch. I think I am sticking with my vote.

In other words you changed your mind. Then look a post later RBT has a wagon growing you hop on it.
You flip flopped so many times it's scummy.
Nice OMGUS vote by the way

[Benmage]

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

[farside22]

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

Part of that goes under my theory from day one of scien/oddin scum team.
Oddin keeps backing my "town" comment as aggressive = scum but only points to one game as an occurance of this which is shady.
I do garner more inquiry being as I'm more vocal then others.

Tell me do you see Scien sidestepping the point I'm making?

[Benmage]

Far

what do you think about Oddin disliking your roundabout town definition, when he himself gives one...He also plainly states his discord for people who make statements like"I'm town" and yet fails to comment on the several occurrences Scien does so.

Part of that goes under my theory from day one of scien/oddin scum team.
Oddin keeps backing my "town" comment as aggressive = scum but only points to one game as an occurance of this which is shady.
I do garner more inquiry being as I'm more vocal then others.

Take a gander at this:

I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.

Could well be read as: look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum.

..............................................
So, I'm currently getting scummy vibes from farside, thus,

unvote, vote: farside

Later:

My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)

2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.

And here again:

Because I explained to someone why I find their nonagression scummy that makes is sound like I'm so towny? That makes no sense.

I think I've explained this several times already. You explained why scum aren't aggressive in games - a thing I don't really agree with, as I've seen scum playing aggressively in games - in a way that made me feel like you're attempting to imply "look, I'm playing exactly in the way in which, as I say, scum don't play". It's an interpretation. What you said could've been said in many ways, and from the way you worded it, it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".

More:

This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

What I'm saying is that it can be a veiled assertion of towniness.

I think I’ve made my point that Oddin didn’t like this subtle definition from farside, or roundabout logic that one could deduce by fars statement in believing far isn’t scum….lets continue:

INCOMING HYPOCRITICAL KILLER:

As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.

Doesn’t this appear to be a “definition” of how town act. Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’

Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town

Let’s continue these fun finds of Oddin.

2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say

"I'm town, I'm town"

when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".

Got it!

However, as a

pro-town role

I have a duty to stay alive too.

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that

as a townie

, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

Oddin ignores again.

How about these 2.

He clearly read them…right?

Anybody can make a tl;dr version of Scien's posts? There's no way I'll read all that. I'm too lazy.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with a player who doesn't read everything in the game. It's mafia. We post a lot here. This isn't even close to really big walls of texts.

Pwned. Outta respect for the game I’ll withhold my vote until I finish catching up.

[Benmage]

Scien

where'd you go buddy...you're post in the thread next to this one, yet ignoring this one since i asked you questions about you and your scum buddy...tsk tsk.

[farside22]

I argue too much to have seen that before but it's a really nice catch I think Oddin should respond to that post.
Incase I'm not clear post 557 Oddin should respond to the blatant discrepancies in his statements.
I'm feeling the need to be crystal clear seeing the back and forth discussion and scien continuing (whether purposely or not I'm not sure) missing the point I made and trying to turn it all into WIFOM.

[Benmage]

Oh and to ur other question:

Tell me do you see Scien sidestepping the point I'm making?

Which points specifically would you like me relook at? (if its past pg 17, i havent seen em yet.)

As a whole I think both of you are earnestly answering one another. The back n forth is draining to follow, but both of you seem committed. And i think you both are trying to fully explain your own agendas/PoV.

[Scien]

I'm ignoring it because it is going to require more than an inebriated post...

I doubt anything I say is going to stop the tunnel... but we deserve more than me coming in and half-assedly answering your concerns...

This is more about Farside's questions and less about yours. Expect more from me tomorrow... and spin that however you want Farside.

[Benmage]

Just for reference..what time zone you from?

[Scien]

Central

[farside22]

Oh and to ur other question:

Tell me do you see Scien sidestepping the point I'm making?

Which points specifically would you like me relook at? (if its past pg 17, i havent seen em yet.)

As a whole I think both of you are earnestly answering one another. The back n forth is draining to follow, but both of you seem committed. And i think you both are trying to fully explain your own agendas/PoV.

It's around page 20 I'm questing how he goes back and forth on the RBT vote, doesn't vote on him and then once the lynch nears flips onto RBT.
No worries you'll get there soon enough.

[farside22]

Ok, maybe I didn't word the correct question (I did but you missed it). Why did you think that the RBT case was crap? Why didn't you even refer RBT's case? If you thought that the RBT case was crap, why didn't you say so? Sure, you pushed for Fuzzy's lynch - but you never tried to stop RBT's wagon, now did you? If you did - please point that out.

This is terrible, just terrible stuff here. I don't see how any one person should be told they should have tried to stop a wagon.
Did hewitt ever say RBT was a crap wagon? No
Did hewitt make any comments about the wagon going on? No
Should he have? Yes
What is your thoughts on scien looking into RBT not voting him, voting for fuzzy then flipping and backtracking his comment back onto RBT towards the end?

[Benmage]

Back to the catchup grind:

Hello people, sorry bout that. You will find vote counts at the top of every page now. I'm going to replace Zazie, he has been picking up his prods but not posting. I am going to prod everyone because it is so close to deadline (it wont count to your 3 prods per game or you get replaced thingy).

Finally what a douchebag. I hope everyone sees how terrible zazier is. Nearly ruined a game of mine near endgame for refusing to participate. Yet picking up prods, and finally leaving refusing to play with us. For no apparent reason.

*Sighs* Okay well I reread the entire game and it actually was a lot more interesting than it was when I was just stopping in and checking new posts. It might've helped that I actually read through all the little walls of text. From about the quarter point of the game until up to a little after halfway I had the feeling that I was going to be voting Electric Badger after I was finished. I kept getting the sense that all he was doing was stirring the pot but not in a way that I feel to be pro-town.

Yo word hes deff scum.

I just feel like this was all very fake. Very fake reasoning and an easy way out. Look here, this last game I was screwed by lurkers so in this game I'm not going to let that happen. You don't carry over previous games into the next one and the little emotional appeal with being touchy over lurkers just feels fake to me.

QFT. Well done hew.

The question would be “Who is your deadline vote and why?”

Vote: Fuzzyman

Nooooo...(i guess i might be somewhat jaded reading fuzzy knowing his alignment)

[Benmage]

Then allow me to expand that question to everybody:

Who is your deadline vote?

NO town player would ask that question.

The question would be “Who is your deadline vote and why?”

Vote: Fuzzyman

Oop meant to say....this reads more or less the same to me...the why, can either be assumed, or if fuzzy was going for a quick answer and just names who cares...i can view this as a town question for sure.

[Benmage]

Caught up threw D1. Hooray, almost done.

The whole purpose of my asking is to try and use our lynch before it gets taken away by the deadline. Furthermore, I think it is to be expected that people say why when they answer, whether or not I ask it specifically. I'd inquire about the reasons for their choice if they didn't.

This is easily viewable.

Your question asking if anybody disagreed was not relevant at all and shouldn't have even be asked. No town player asks questions like that without 1) clearly answering it themselves and 2) providing an opposition to one side of the argument. You just asked it to stir up pointless arguments.

I disagree completely… “pointless argument”…come on its about who’d they lynch at the last minute…gets everyones view/statement on paper before time runs out. I think it was good. If you cant see it, tis a matter of opinion. (An obvious one for the side I’m on imo, but to each his own.)

And I hate myself a little more because hewitt's argument against EB is really good. I also find the RBT argument too contrived and based on theory rather than alignment indicative reasons.

Unvote; Vote EB

It was/is!!

No town person would say shit like this. It’s beating somebody else to an argument that they would have against you and it’s WAY too over-defensive. Defending yourself from possibly forthcoming attacks is not something a town player does. It’s what scum does to cover their bases.

It sounds more like a sentence dunked in sarcasm, and still dripping it, intended to add to the AtE before it, rather than trying to cover his bases to me.

Mmm..gonna go ahead and say go me. cause this comment is true, and from my predecessor.

[Benmage]

Okay so as of right now I'm definitely still retaining all my previous thoughts on Electric Badger from Day 1. Right now he's my #1 scum suspect, I think he played a really manipulative game yesterday and it would not surprise me at all if he was scum.

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

I also don't like Maemuki. It's the subtle little way he bounces around and around in his posts and never really comments on anything descriptively enough to be any help.

All 3 of these are viable.

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

Your main antagonists yesterday were Wulfy, Fuzzy and me. Particularly from my point of view, not a really great track record.

Wowwww look at this man. Trying to get you off your game. Totally scummy. Town gotta keep at it, stick to their guts, and not relent. Even with a few mislynches. (so your 1st read was bad, all the more likely that 2nd one is correct)

Farside

@ Post 474 Scien does seem to flipflop. Good catch, bad for Scien.

That flip that you are complaining about, is me in full honesty switching my views in mid post as I attempted to post why Fuzzy was the better lynch. Going through my points trying to argue for Fuzzy's lynch, I changed my mind.

I didn't try and hide the change in attitude, in fact I explicitly said in the post you are quoting that I changed my stance.

IMO this WIFOM case that I am scum and decided that I should switch from a 'avoid the townie stance' to a 'Oh actively lynch a townie' stance is a bit silly. Not only that, but the person I was voting, and attempting to argue was the better lynch was also killed and flipped townie. If you honestly think I was avoiding voting for a townie at that point... why was my vote on a townie, and why was I trying to get others to lynch that townie?

You don't have to believe everything I say. But trying to claim that when I was voting Fuzzy it was because I was afraid of voting a townie, is silly.

You want to try, 'Well maybe he was actively going for any townie with pressure on them'? You would have a better complaint there I think, however still wrong, and still WIFOM.

Changing ones mind is fair and reasonable enough. But this last part is still something we can consider. A lot of cases fall into wifom. It aint the best defense, nor the best case, but something to consider. Especially weighed in and in conjunction with everything else you’ve done. I don’t think it’s a stretch nor to farfetched to see you fishing for any town lynch.

Canada has requested replacement. I will find one for him. I want more postage.

How’s the delivery?

I am happy with the delivery. Keep it up ~ Hayl

[Benmage]

still not happy with scien's response. Calling it another battle and more WIFOM is just a way to down play the scum move.

Word.

I agree it looks like he's sidestepping.


ANYWHOOSE I'm all caught up!

Go me. Hi5's everyone. Best replacement ever? Think so.

So lets wait for this scien and oddin return.

Everyone else if ya got any questions fire away. I had planned on make some conclusion points, a player analysis maybe...Doesn't seem to necessary at the moment with the juicy info in front of us.

[ElectricBadger]

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

So...what? It's okay if he lies, as long as he does it to kill off people you want dead?

I get the feeling, throughout your reading, that you've already latched onto a couple people from the start and are just trying to cover your bases after the flips - the only reason for the walls of text is to have a handy reference to point at that you accused the scum at some point - but I'm reasonably sure you've called everyone scum so far, and they're so broad and ambiguous they don't help town much.

Anyways, please explain exactly why you so blithely absolve hewitt.

[Benmage]

I found Scien asking for someone to hammer at the end on RBT was incredibly scummy, especially looking in hindsight as he flipped town. I never really understood the wagon on him to begin with I thought it was pretty damn crappy and forced.

Did you ever try to stop the crappy and forced wagon? If so, please reference it...if not, please explain why.

Also, please explain why Scien's vote was scummy and yours on Fuzzy wasn't, as both suspects flipped town.

touche, but you(hewitt) are dealing with scum here...soooooo

So...what? It's okay if he lies, as long as he does it to kill off people you want dead?

No, your point was good. He should've argued against the crappy wagon if thats how he felt. My point is that, you're scum.

I get the feeling, throughout your reading, that you've already latched onto a couple people from the start and are just trying to cover your bases after the flips - the only reason for the walls of text is to have a handy reference to point at that you accused the scum at some point - but I'm reasonably sure you've called everyone scum so far, and they're so broad and ambiguous they don't help town much.

Anyways, please explain exactly why you so blithely absolve hewitt.

I dont think I've accused everyone as being scum. I may have pointed out anti-town behavior and scummy things but i certainly havent named everyone scum. Infact I only named You Scien and Oddin scum. But I can understand the corner you're backed into and you're attempt at misrepresenting what i've said.

How about the point i just presented about Oddin, nothing to comment on?

[Benmage]

Right well since I'm all caught up

lynch preference is:
Oddin
Eb
Scien

vote Oddin

[ElectricBadger]

Not much of a corner, tbh, when even you aren't voting me. And not much of a dodge. More than one scum team here even if you were right - but you're not really looking for scum anyways, I think, just trolling for what people will jump at.

What point about ODDin? That he didn't jump at Scien's townie comments, or that he identified lack of votes/views as anti-town? That was the last comment about him I see. A weak tell and a null tell, imo, not the amazing insight you seem to bill your commentary as.