Newbie 991 - Newbieville! (Game Over)

[Thor665]

@seth - Gah, forget the second part of the above question, I forgot you were already voting Travis, that makes the whole 'cautious' tell you're using make more sense. I think I'll leave you on my scum list for the nonce though, and would still like the first part of the question responded to.

[Cirno]

@Cirno - what's your read on EarthIntruder and his shifting beliefs and anger at the death of the reluctant wagon?

As a tunneler, I cannot forgive someone who drops a case so easily and will be looking at EI with contempt from here on. But neither that nor his "anger" at the collapse of the reluctant wagon is enough to inspire me to vote him over Coach Travis at the moment.

you don't even seem to want to vote him while now pushing Travis off of 'gut'.

Is there some problem with not wishing to vote EarthIntruder?

I loves me my gut, but I want to make sure you've sampled the other dishes on the menu first.

I have read the thread and the player I would like to lynch is Coach Travis.

[Thor665]

Is there some problem with not wishing to vote EarthIntruder?

The only problem I have is trying to follow your logic. When you first replaced in he was a high contender (tied with Travis and arguably at some points higher then Travis).

Now he's off the table.

Why?

[Cirno]

The only problem I have is trying to follow your logic. When you first replaced in he was a high contender (tied with Travis and arguably at some points higher then Travis).

Now he's off the table.

Why?

He was a high contender because no player stood out as particularly scummy and he was the one with the most points against him. I decided that I would rather follow my gut than go along with the suspicions of other people.

[Thor665]

Previously in the other game we played together you were all about long and blaring cases (occasionally with graphical support) why the more abdominal driven methodology here?

[seth]

I don't know how to translate my thoughts on his tone in his first post. The ellipsises? Even when I'm typing this out right now, it already sounds bad. If you can't see what I'm trying to say on your first read through, I doubt anything I'll try to say will be able to convince you so. I think that you're making a mountain out of a hill though. It seems weird that you have both me and Travis on your scumlist while there is no point in trying to buss and start a BW on my partner on D1. It also seems weird that, as evidenced by my reasoning on Travis, I don't really have a clear cut out case on anyone, and I'm tunneling on him for reactions, you would try and label me as scum by my musings on other people - if I haven't made it clear before - I'm not especially confident that reluctant nor arraeneas is scum, those two people just popped out to me.

Is there a reason why you, even after I made it clear that if I HAD to put someone as my #2 I would put reluctant/arraneas, see my musings as scumtells?

I just kind of see it like this:

Player A: So if you had to pick two players out of C, D, and E who would you choose?
Player B: Uhh.... C & D?
Player A: Why?
Player B: I dunno. They pop out to me more because of _____
Player A: Really? That's pretty weak.
Player B: Well, I had to choose right?
Player A: Hmm... I'm starting to think you're scum.

<Exaggeration, don't get butthurt, just trying to convey MPOV more clearly>

[Thor665]

@seth - please quote the part of any of my posts where I claim the reason I consider you scum has anything to do with your "musings"

Who has the hurt posterior, again?

As far as having you and Travis on a scumlist - I see no problem with that. My list has three names and there's only two scum - I am absolutely certain I am at least 33% wrong on my list, that doesn't worry me nor do I think it's a problem.

[Cirno]

Previously in the other game we played together you were all about long and blaring cases (occasionally with graphical support) why the more abdominal driven methodology here?

When I begun my attack in that game I already had a day of information, three confirmed townies, two claims and a player I was nearly certain was scum. So far in this game there has been very little to attack and certainly nothing worthy of building a case on.

[EarthIntruder]

Reluctant, you haven't answered my questions much. Not sure if you actually saw them or not, so I'll reiterate:

-Reluctant, is your second choice for a lynch still Anton, or have you changed your mind?
-What about your vote on Aran, since he was your last vote before the scapegoat/me wagon, how do you feel about him now?
-What's your opinion on the replacements (besides me, of course, I think you've already established that one)

You sort of answered the first one when you talked about people saying lurking is a null read, but not exactly directly. I get the impression I'm still your first choice, so I'd really like to know your second one now.

I'd also like to hear thoughts on the scapegoat/EI and Coach Travis BW from Aranneas and willows_weep.

Yeah, me too. x_x

do you have any links to completed games of yours I can look at?

My only completed game on MS so far is Newbie 966, here. I was VT and we won on Day 3.

Would you mind linking me the game you, Cirno and seth were apparently in together?

So far in this game there has been very little to attack and certainly nothing worthy of building a case on.

So what have the rest of us been doing?!

[EarthIntruder]

It seems weird that you have both me and Travis on your scumlist while there is no point in trying to buss and start a BW on my partner on D1.

Does that look scummy to anyone else? That looks really scummy to me.

[Cirno]

So what have the rest of us been doing?!

Making worthless attacks based on very little.

[Thor665]

Please attribute quotes when you make them (for the record to everyone else, EI is quoting seth).

Here's my game with Cirno

I don't recall ever claiming to have played a game with her and seth and don't think I have. I have an ongoing with seth and may or may not have had another game with him - but if I have I don't know which one, feel free to search my Wiki, it is complete and is there as a resource if you wish it.

@Cirno - you said there were 'points' on EI. What are points if not a case? Why do you not like the cas-er, I mean 'points' on EI and why go for 'gut' instead of that?

@EarthIntruder - I shall now accuse you of making less logical leaps and errors in your completed town game then you have in this game - what's your response to that?

[EarthIntruder]

I shall now accuse you of making less logical leaps and errors in your completed town game then you have in this game - what's your response to that?

Fair enough. Like I said, I realized I was having to stretch for my case on you to make sense. I want to hear a response from reluctant and seth and hopefully I can come up with one that does make sense.

[Thor665]

Unvote: EarthIntruder

Eugh. I'm no longer in support of this lynch for today. He's still very scummy but I'm thinking there's enough potential town energy mixed in to buy him some more time. He's a little too appeasing for my tastes but I actually think his reactions under pressure were mostly town and his open admission of the poor logic on me is either a clever scum gambit that tends to preclude certain of his antics or a relatively honest reaction to having logic slapped in his face.

I need to re-read to gather my thoughts. Will probably have another thought provoking and sexily witty commentary sometime late tomorrow or early Thursday.

[Cirno]

@Cirno - you said there were 'points' on EI. What are points if not a case?

Let's put it this way: I don't believe that any of the concerns raised in the game so far are enough to claim that any given player is a better lynch than any other.

Why do you not like the cas-er, I mean 'points' on EI and why go for 'gut' instead of that?

I've already answered this in posts 201 and 203.

[Thor665]

Yeah, don't sweat your little pasty face over it - if I'm thinking clearly about EI then your role comes into better clarity as well. If I'm wrong about EI...well, same thing.

You are starting to tunnel slightly again though, you should be able and willing to discuss your reads, however thin they are, unless you have something very clever going on that I'm too dumb to see.

[seth]

Then what are your reasons for why I'm scum?

[Thor665]

Gut.
Process of elimination.
Playstyle meta.
Unwillingness to take a stand on issues.

[seth]

Can't really persuade you then if you're using gut + playstyle meta

If you're town you're going to be a problem :/

[seth]

. . . Wasn't it you who said that two games [at least] isn't enough for a meta read?

[Thor665]

I inherently distrust those types of meta - if that's all I was clearing you on well...I wouldn't clear you on only that (and for everyone else I think that particular comment came from a different ongoing game). Paired with everything else I've listed I consider it a reasonable addition to the list.

Why the focus on my gut and meta listings - process of elimination and unwillingness to take a stand seem more reasonable to you I guess?
How do you feel about your eruption in post 25 where you're being defensive about me calling your reads on 2 players scummy when I hadn't done anything of the sort...why so convinced those reads could be called scummy?

[Thor665]

post 205, not post 25, natch.

[seth]

PoE is more reasonable, unwillingness to take stand is an exaggeration. Looking back, I don't really buy your reasoning and you're probably scum too. You ask me a bunch of questions, find a question where I have to answer, make my answers seem dumb, and then decide to publicly announce that you think I'm scum. Seems strange that it was only after you forced me to take a stand that you say that I'm scum and then you claim that your question involving who I fos after Travis has nothing to do with your read on me.

[Thor665]

Where do you think I made you look dumb for your answers?

My questions did have something to do with my read on you, as did the method of your answers. The specific answers you gave had nothing to do with it. There is a difference between the way you answer and the answers you give.

[reluctant]

Reluctant, you haven't answered my questions much. Not sure if you actually saw them or not, so I'll reiterate:

-Reluctant, is your second choice for a lynch still Anton, or have you changed your mind?
-What about your vote on Aran, since he was your last vote before the scapegoat/me wagon, how do you feel about him now?
-What's your opinion on the replacements (besides me, of course, I think you've already established that one)

You sort of answered the first one when you talked about people saying lurking is a null read, but not exactly directly. I get the impression I'm still your first choice, so I'd really like to know your second one now.

I haven't changed my feeling about Anton much despite everyone telling me I should, though I'm going to try to give less credence to it out of deference to everyone else's experience. It just seemed so odd to me at the time, it made me super suspicious. I'll figure to get more information from his replacement.

Seth replaced in for the non-existent DukeJupiter. He picked Coach Travis as his target and then tunneled in on it pretty heavily. Looking through it, I don't see it as any different than an argument against Aranneas (I think I mentioned this in my previous post and am hoping for a response), though Coach Travis tended to have shorter posts, maybe his succinctness hurt him in people's mind? I have a mostly town read from both Travis and Aranneas (would like to see more activity out of him re: replacements), though I'm not convinced about anything. If Coach Travis is scum, I would

highly

suspect Thor to be his scumbuddy. Back to Seth, I think that tunneling in on someone is an interesting strategy, and I'm not sure what I think of it. Coming in late like he did gives an advantage b/c he can pick a player who some others are suspicious of and just target. He didn't have to participate in the super RVS phase. I guess what I'm saying is it is an equally good strategy for scum or town coming in halfway through D1. I don't have any experience to tell me how to view it, so my gut likes his responses to Thor (though not to Cirno), so I am tending more townish ATM.

I'm getting a pretty much straight town read on Cirno / Mrs Sak. Though like I said above I haven't really ruled out anyone.

I realize I haven't answered about who my 2nd vote would be on after you. The reason is my suspicion level drops off pretty strongly after you. I would like to see more from Anton's replacement, willows_weep & Aranneas, but with those caveats I would probably choose Thor, followed by Anton, followed by Seth, but those are pretty weak reads in my mind.