Newbie 991 - Newbieville! (Game Over)

[zipperflesh]

So I'm both scummy *and* misguided? I personally don't tend to call anyone misguided unless I think they're dumb/foolish town. If someone is scum I tend to just say 'you're scum'. What do you see as the logic of joining these two beliefs together?

Scummy does not always mean you are scum. A townie can make scummy moves, sometimes on purpose to achieve a pro-town motive & sometimes by mistake.

How exactly does Travis' flip 'greatly help matters' since you don't seem to think it gives info on at least a couple of the players in game?

It will give us more info on you. I thought I'd already explained that...

What is the point in going around in circles?

[Thor665]

Not circles, just trying to get a feel for the space. I was curious to see if 'greatly helping matters' meant you saw his flip as useful for anything but getting a read on me. Apparently the answer is no.

I can grok that scummy doesn't always mean scum. I do think misguided tends to always mean town - you don't often call someone you're suspicious of 'misguided', thoughts?

[zipperflesh]

Yeah, misguided does normally refer to town, but like I said, once I see Travis's flip I'll be better able to determine your motivations, thusly I'll have a better read of your actions.

[EarthIntruder]

Sundy, are you still convinced that reluctant is the scummiest player in the game thus far? Unless I missed it, you haven't unvoted him yet. If so, I'd like to hear why you think so.

[Sundy]

Sundy, are you still convinced that reluctant is the scummiest player in the game thus far? Unless I missed it, you haven't unvoted him yet. If so, I'd like to hear why you think so.

Funny you ask me. I've been so busy today & yesterday and only checking MS when I get the e-mail notifications... but I am planning to change my vote. I will give my reasons, hopefully I can make my post this evening... I'm moving into my new dormitory as we speak so it's a little craaaazy.

[EarthIntruder]

I'm moving into my new dormitory as we speak so it's a little craaaazy.

Bleh, same here. [/OT]

[Thor665]

@Sundy - what's your read on fleshzipper?

@EarhIntruder - what's your read on fleshzipper?

I really hope you're both still not in null territory, like Cirno.

[Coach Travis]

Reading through zipperflesh in ISO, I do find him scummy. He's being consistent, but that's not necessarily a town tell, scum can be consistent when they're plan is working, and so far nothing really bad has happened with him. I get that he finds me suspicious, but what I'm not liking is how he's so content to single me out like that, not even considering voting anyone else at this point, and not even really saying that much about anyone except me and who he considers to be my potential scum partner. I still like Seth the least, because zipper is at least making a pretty good argument, but just the way he's going about it doesn't sit right with me, and I'd definitely lynch him over Thor.

[Cirno]

Looks like you guys still haven't decided on a lynch. I'm willing to vote Coach Travis should a Thor wagon prove impossible. I'd really prefer Thor, though. I'll make a case on Thor tomorrow and see if I can convince anybody.

[Thor665]

Uffda! Remind me to get a little inebriated before reading it so I don't go into an emotional barrel roll of despair at the case

[Cirno]

barrel roll

A barrel roll is not something to be done out of despair! It is a special technique reserved for those with the undying determination to overcome any trouble that may befall them! One who must supplement their courage with alcohol is not qualified to use it!

But anyway, you've been at Zipper for awhile now. Have you managed to find reasons to vote him other than gut? To be more specific, is there any behavior of Zipper's that your are willing to label outright as scummy?

[Thor665]

A barrel role is something you do to make certain anthropomorphic wingmen shut their pie-holes cause you're trying to fly through some giant rings.

I have actually already presented a more substantial case on Zipper. Read moar. Is your read on him still 'null'/

[Cirno]

So you are willing to label the behavior outlined in 395 as scummy behavior? What exactly makes that behavior more likely to be done by scum rather than town?

I still have a null read on Zipper. However, a null read to me means that I am unable or unwilling to label a player as 'likely town' or 'likely scum'. If I had to guess right now, I would guess that he is town.

[Thor665]

Yes, I do believe the behavior exhibited by zipperflesh is scummy.

Trying to fencesit, letting others fight your battles, being murky on reads, and avoiding doing something "because it would look scummy" are all things that scum are more likely to do then town. I also, personally, find them much more relevant then the CT case of 'he's voted for two players and brought them close to lynch' Remember the last game we played together? Remember me commenting about how Valk/Me=Weird was sort of following opinion and letting other players say things for them (I also used neutral opinions as a tell as well as active lurking - I was town in that game)? Yeah, I believe my case to be one of scumtells.

[Sundy]

Alright... many pages of conversation, and deadline still approaches.

Aside from the points that other players have made against Thor, there have been a few things that incline me to place my vote on him, not least of which is our conversation. He is inconsistent in the way that he defends himself:

Also, seriously, I'm scum because my super scummy plan is to arrange a 'no lynch'...yeah...why do all the cases on me require me to be one of the worst scum players of all time? I'm actually pretty intelligent and handsome - can't we have a few scum cases on me where I'm actually clever and can slightly hide my scummy actions?

Smart play for scum not to have a lynch?...woosh. Scum want a lynch - they just want a mislynch. Big difference. Reexamine that - it doesn't make sense.

When he was accused of trying to arrange a no-lynch, he said that if he was scum, he would be able to hide his "scummy actions" better, which to me suggests that trying to cause a no-lynch would be a scummy action, though he would employ a better strategy. In the second post, he says that scum do not want a no-lynch, which contradicts the "scummy actions" in the first post.

We also had a conversation on "clearing" someone as opposed to "calling them town." I first responded to this post from him:

So you postulate either I'm dumb town (possible) or I'm scum openly clearing townies and cutting off my opportunities...okay...
I'll also note there's a BIG difference between me calling them town and saying I don't want them lynched today and me calling them cleared. Town reads, like scum reads, are mutable.

When I suggested that he did not seem to be differentiating as strongly between these two concepts throughout the game, he said:

I've really got no answer on the cleared/town read thing. Probably I started using 'cleared' there because Cirno did.

I am amazed you don't consider town reads to be cutting off scum options whether or not they are mutable - how would you feel about a player who had a scum read on someone suddenly saying they have a town read? They would need to be able to point out the progression of their thoughts and their logic - wouldn't they? You don't see how that limits options? Look at games and note what sort of reads scum prefer to have on their partners - you don't think there's an advantageous strategy there?

Notice how the first post says that he only switched vocabulary because Cirno does, when originally he said that they were two very separate concepts. This conversation is important because he said that he isn't scum because he's "clearing" townies, and it would be difficult to go back on a read. I agree that it would be difficult to go back on a read, and scum are likely to tie themselves up in contradictions. But he tried to invent two different levels of certainty-- "clearing" and "calling them town," and suggested that the former is much less mutable and would be more difficult for scum to walk back, and says that he is not scum because he is clearing so many townies. But then the distinction between these concepts is lost in later posts.

Speaking of town reads, he still has not indicated why he thinks that Arraneas is town, even though he claimed to have explained why he thought this in the thread, and after I pointed out that he had not, he admitted that he did not make a case, but did not bother to provide one. This concerns me because I saw similarities between Aranneas and Coach Travis in terms of following Thor's bandwagon, and he had virtually opposite reactions to both players.

Tying everything back to the first point about mutable town reads, it seems like it would be even easier for Thor to reverse his read on Aranneas if he were lynched and turned up scum, because he didn't make a case, he just said he was innocent.

So

VOTE: Thor

. This close to deadline, it's looking like the best option. Another good reason is that Thor has led (or tried to lead) four separate bandwagons, so if he's scum, I don't think it will be very difficult to identify his teammate.

That said, I think Thor had one good point in the last few days, Zipperflash is being very cagey in terms of his opinion on Thor, and only said he was "intrigued" by the case against Thor. I don't like the way he relied on Cirno. Zipperflash, you should sum up your thoughts on Thor as best you can now. I want to know your own thoughts.

Another quote from Zipperflesh:

I'm favor of lynching Travis for the way he was hoping bandwagons, not because you seemed to be distancing yourself from him. If Travis flips scum, then I think it's a good possibility that you are scum as well.

These two sentences do not jive...

EBWOP: By which I mean, would you be opposed to both a Coach Travis and a Thor lynch.

This smells a little bit like trying to chain lynch. Could you discuss the various courses of action you would recommend based on how one of these two players (Travis or Thor) flip? Personally I think a lynch of either would provide interesting insight into the other... though Thor has simultaneously argued that there is no case connecting them, and that if Travis does turn up scum, then he himself is basically guilty.

@ EI, You asked for a read on Reluctant, which I'll do later today...

[zipperflesh]

I'm not sure what more you want me to say. I think Thor has made some suspicious plays, but those plays make sense from both a scum and town perspective all depending upon Travis's alignment. If Travis is town, then Thor's play looks like town trying to prevent a bad lynch, but if Travis flips scum then Thor's play looks like scum trying to save his partner.

[reluctant]

Informal vote count:
Thor (3) : Sundy, EarthIntruder, Cirno
Zipperflesh (1) : Thor
Coach Travis (2) : Zipperflesh, Seth
Seth (1) : Coach Travis
EarthIntruder (1) : Aranneas

Not Voting: reluctant.

Time is running out. I think any lynch is better than no lynch, but I'm not thrilled with either the CT or the Thor lynch. VOTE: EarthIntruder because I still think he's the scummiest player, but I'm looking for other viable options. Especially Cirno, though there doesn't seem to be a bunch of interest there. I'd be willing to consider Seth or Zipperflesh over CT, not sure about over Thor.

[Cirno]

I mean... if you were gonna vote in the same post, you should have gone ahead and included your vote in the vote count.

Anyway, I'll make my case in an hour or two.

[EarthIntruder]

@Thor Doing a quick ISO of Zipper, I don't really see him explaining his case on Travis much, which makes it look pretty opportunistic to me. I also don't see why he's not willing to lynch you, since he's listed reasons that he finds you suspicious earlier. I do think his play is somewhat scummy, but my read was pretty much null when you put your vote on him, and it still strikes me as trying to derail other BWs, so I'm not changing my stance.

[Sundy]

I'm not sure what more you want me to say. I think Thor has made some suspicious plays, but those plays make sense from both a scum and town perspective all depending upon Travis's alignment. If Travis is town, then Thor's play looks like town trying to prevent a bad lynch, but if Travis flips scum then Thor's play looks like scum trying to save his partner.

Can you give examples as to which plays you find suspicious, and how they could come from scum or town? It feels like you're hedging, not taking a stance either way. Thor has nearly 5 pages of posts, I'd expect you to glean

something

from his posts without knowledge of another player.

[EarthIntruder]

This smells a little bit like trying to chain lynch. Could you discuss the various courses of action you would recommend based on how one of these two players (Travis or Thor) flip? Personally I think a lynch of either would provide interesting insight into the other... though Thor has simultaneously argued that there is no case connecting them, and that if Travis does turn up scum, then he himself is basically guilty.

I just meant that I think either one of them is the best lynch for today, and I wanted to know who in the game would not be okay with lynching either one of them and why.

I don't want to give away too much and tell scum who to kill/throw suspicion on, but I can say that I definitely agree that the flip of either one would tell a lot about the other. If either flipped scum, I'd look more closely at the other, but my opinion of, for example, seth and Cirno could potentially change a lot depending on Thor's flip.

[Sundy]

This smells a little bit like trying to chain lynch. Could you discuss the various courses of action you would recommend based on how one of these two players (Travis or Thor) flip? Personally I think a lynch of either would provide interesting insight into the other... though Thor has simultaneously argued that there is no case connecting them, and that if Travis does turn up scum, then he himself is basically guilty.

I just meant that I think either one of them is the best lynch for today, and I wanted to know who in the game would not be okay with lynching either one of them and why.

I don't want to give away too much and tell scum who to kill/throw suspicion on, but I can say that I definitely agree that the flip of either one would tell a lot about the other. If either flipped scum, I'd look more closely at the other, but my opinion of, for example, seth and Cirno could potentially change a lot depending on Thor's flip.

fair enough, though I would have expected you to convey that sentiment with a "Travis or Thor" not a "Travis and Thor" phrase. since you EBWOP'd with "and," it stuck out to me as meaning something different than what you just described

[zipperflesh]

Can you give examples as to which plays you find suspicious, and how they could come from scum or town? It feels like you're hedging, not taking a stance either way. Thor has nearly 5 pages of posts, I'd expect you to glean

something

from his posts without knowledge of another player.

It's pretty much Thor's attempt to swing the BW off of Travis and unto me without giving any solid reasoning. He was either trying to save a townie Travis or a scum Travis. I won't know how to interpret his motivations until I see Travis's flip.

[EarthIntruder]

It's pretty much Thor's attempt to swing the BW off of Travis and unto me without giving any solid reasoning. He was either trying to save a townie Travis or a scum Travis. I won't know how to interpret his motivations until I see Travis's flip.

That doesn't speak more to Thor's scumminess than Travis's to you?

[zipperflesh]

Not really, I'd rather see Travis dead first. If he flips scum, then I'm almost positive Thor is scum, but if we lynch Thor and he flips scum, I won't be as sure of Travis.