Newbie #1185 (Game Over!)

[Tierce]

fathom42
his deflection "playstyle" really irks me more than anything. his first post that actually had any content in it was #91. the rest were just questions, or stating things that are obvious. he hasn't even posted anything since. if you guys were bandwagoning me for lurking until page 3, what does it say about fathom who only deflected attention, when went undercover for almost 4 pages.

fathom did mention his activity would decrease a little after joining the game, and then, as with you, turkeys attacked. If today was any indicator, activity is picking up again. The thing is, you were expressing an intention of lurking. He went on unannounced holidays, as did you, but you were the one with questions pending.

This is a great read on who one should check as a cop; could be potentially useless this game but it might help you out in the future. To summarize the article though, "Cops should investigate competent players who are not obviously Town or obviously scum".

Great article, thank you. And with the article read, I'd investigate either Shii or fathom.

haycorn. Townies know they will eventually die, there's no such thing as a 'perfect victory' for town. In other words, see her very very weird last sentence.

@Tierce, when did I say anything about a "perfect victory"? What does what you said have anything at all to do with what I said?

Investigating someone who's voting you just (and being blatantly loud about it, at that) because they did so doesn't help town. It's a scummy choice.

I am a bit wary of placing her at L-1 before Sampson, Work, Fathom and Inte get in and post their stances, but I'll be re-reading and will place a vote on Haycorn late today if I find myself leaning her over SOAD.

Bad idea. With people returning from holidays, there may be tired, idiot votes from people who don't realize they are hammering. State your intentions, but don't place a vote just yet if it comes to it.

Analysis to come, wanted to reply to these first.

[syndromeofadown]

I've been drawing all morning, so my brain is all measurements and boulders. While I wouldn't discard SOAD's points offhand, they still read as "hello look at me I'm a distraction from the pressure on me". Try defending yourself before attacking others. We want to hear about you too.

I thought I made my points very clear, but I realize a wall of text is hard to read through. My main reasons are: 1) Fluffiness, we've already been through this. 2) Passiveness in voting. Voting me is fine, but the way she did it without trying to prod me or feel anyone out first, even asking forgiveness, makes it seem like she just wanted to quietly jump on the bandwagon. 3) She seems to be more preoccupied with self-preservation than finding scum, for example:

SOAD, because I would want to know if he has an agenda against me or just really believes I'm scum.

When asked to give her opinion on an issue, the reasoning she gives is never "because I want to know who is scum!" or "because I want a better read on player X" but "because I want to know who's out to get me" or "I want to appear less scummy".

As for "try defending yourself first before attacking others" What do you mean by this? If I missed a question against me, feel free to point it out, but what you're implying is that everyone should have a clean slate before accusing anyone of anything. Just because people think I'm scum I'm no longer allowed to voice my opinion? I have a feeling this is more of a miscommunication, though, which is why I want you to clarify.

Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?

You would be my first pick because you act the complete opposite of Cav, who I never had a strong read on in the first place. And the fact that you came into this game as the first person to have a town-tell on me AND have the same scumtell almost sounds too good to be true. At first, saying if the lynch goes through and I flipped scum you volunteer to be lynched next sounds noble, but at the same time a person playing scum would KNOW I would flip town, so as scum you would be risking nothing. That's not to say I think you're scum, I just have a difficult time reading you one way or the other.

By the way, how do you do spoilers? When I posted that wall earlier I wanted it to be hidden in a little spoiler box thingy so it wouldn't stretch the page, but it just kept coming up as blacked-out text in the preview.

[BBmolla]

Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?

You would be my first pick because you act the complete opposite of Cav, who I never had a strong read on in the first place. And the fact that you came into this game as the first person to have a town-tell on me AND have the same scumtell almost sounds too good to be true. At first, saying if the lynch goes through and I flipped scum you volunteer to be lynched next sounds noble, but at the same time a person playing scum would KNOW I would flip town, so as scum you would be risking nothing. That's not to say I think you're scum, I just have a difficult time reading you one way or the other.

By the way, how do you do spoilers? When I posted that wall earlier I wanted it to be hidden in a little spoiler box thingy so it wouldn't stretch the page, but it just kept coming up as blacked-out text in the preview.

Totally valid point. However, as partners, I'd be setting us up to lose the game, so while it doesn't rule me out as scum, I think it should probably rule us out as partners, at least in regards to WIFOMs sake. Maybe that's just what I want people to think. The factors that contribute to the statement could be due to multiple situations from anyone's point of view except my own, so the statement itself should be pretty null readwise, though I'm glad you and Shii are both saying "This guy has a townread on me; what do I think of him though?" Supports my town read further.

For spoilers, use the "spoiler=" command.
Here's the difference:

Code: Select all

[spoiler]this[/spoiler]
[spoiler=lol]this[/spoiler]

this

Spoiler: lol

this

[Tierce]

I see logic flaws in both SOAD and haycorn, but after sleeping on the subject, one looks town, the other scum.

I thought I made my points very clear, but I realize a wall of text is hard to read through. My main reasons are: 1) Fluffiness, we've already been through this. 2) Passiveness in voting. Voting me is fine, but the way she did it without trying to prod me or feel anyone out first, even asking forgiveness, makes it seem like she just wanted to quietly jump on the bandwagon. 3) She seems to be more preoccupied with self-preservation than finding scum, for example:

SOAD, because I would want to know if he has an agenda against me or just really believes I'm scum.

When asked to give her opinion on an issue, the reasoning she gives is never "because I want to know who is scum!" or "because I want a better read on player X" but "because I want to know who's out to get me" or "I want to appear less scummy".

As for "try defending yourself first before attacking others" What do you mean by this? If I missed a question against me, feel free to point it out, but what you're implying is that everyone should have a clean slate before accusing anyone of anything. Just because people think I'm scum I'm no longer allowed to voice my opinion? I have a feeling this is more of a miscommunication, though, which is why I want you to clarify.

More my fault than yours, there. I first read your post as an all-out attack on haycorn without looking on why the very same post gives me a read on you. It seemed an OMGUS at the time, not anymore. I agree with you, especially on 3); if you read above, you'll see that precedes my vote on her.

By the way, your reasoning there reads much better than it did on your other post. It's not so much conciseness that matters: it's directness.

[BBmolla]

^Just to clarify, you think SOAD is town and haycorn scum, correct?

[BBmolla]

When Sampson gets back he better towntell like hell.

[Tierce]

^Just to clarify, you think SOAD is town and haycorn scum, correct?

My bad. That's correct.

[Tierce]

ISOing haycorn.

49. Filler.
63. "I will post something just as suspicious and accusatory as everyone else's posts." Didn't like that then, don't like it now.
82. More filler + SOAD shows agression = SOAD is scum.
96. "so I wouldn't be so lurky." Not scumhunting.
107. This does not pertain to the game nor did it have to do with her.
116. Keeps justifying SOAD's vote on the same reason. Doesn't look for more. More filler.
119. Still the same reason.
136. Bump post + filler. This kind of stuff waits till endgame.
140. "Plenty of people were just throwing votes at the wall." "It was just one vote." This kind of downplaying the importance of her votes and a possible lynch rubs me the wrong way. "I wanted to try to show that I was willing [to talk]." Why would you even write that. More filler. Finally, some analysis, 140 posts in.
159. Bad logic = scum. Then filler, and she's aware of it. "I guess that what is traditionally done is to say "Wait, I'm writing a big post now!" and then go come up with a claim for why someone is scum." Chooses an investigation target because he's voting her.
162. The ISO post. She's not trying to scumhunt, she's doing it for posting sake. More filler.
165-172. Three posts going around "SOAD tries to make himself look like a superior player so we won't suspect him" and little else.


When you start putting it all together, the things that seemed minor in the beginning just keep piling up.

Curious detail: She says aggression is scummy to her. Look how her behavior changed toward SOAD and how bitter she is on the issue of his vote on her.

[haycorn]

There's nothing I can say in reply to anyone that I haven't said already or that isn't a re-statement of "I was doing the best I could." As it seems inevitable that I will get to L-1 soon and because I'd prefer not to be hammered before I have a chance to say something, I'm just going to go ahead and make my Jailkeeper claim now.

The way I see it, there are two possible outcomes from this-

1. You don't believe me. You lynch me anyway. Maybe something turns up in the discussion that leads to a spark of thought that catches scum. You can start Day 2 and have more information to work with. Town benefits.
2. You believe me and lynch someone else. Maybe they are scum. I almost certainly get Nightkilled, but that means that if there's another power role, they stay alive for another night. Town benefits.

If I'd known how to do more helpful analysis, I would have done it earlier. As it stands, this is all I can think to do.

[BBmolla]

UNVOTE:

If haycorn is scum, it's most likely with an experienced player.

I'll have to re-evaluate things.

If there is someone else who claims Jailkeeper, claim now.

[BBmolla]

^In addition, I find lynching uncc'd PR claims to be a bad idea D1.

[BBmolla]

VOTE: fathom42

Will go into more detail after he posts.

[fathom42]

Ok, read everything. I know you guys are gonna hate me for this, but I'm gonna have to hold off on making an extended post. The drive back to college really took it out of me; I'm just too tired to make a good post right now. I'm sorry about this, but my health comes before this game.

However, I do leave y'all with a promise that I'll get up early tomorrow, and have my thoughts posted by 8 AM EST.

[Tierce]

Huh.

UNVOTE:

Will get to this properly tonight after college.

[Workdawg]

I am VERY sorry for my recent absence. Holiday combined with SWTOR test weekend = ALL my time was taken up. I know it's bad for the IC to go V/LA for that reason, but it's SWTOR!


I normally don't like to have my vote sitting on no one, and that's really the only reason it's remained on SOAD for so long. I'm going to

UNVOTE

now, but I imagine I'll probably vote again by the end of this post.


Anyway. Here's all the text:


First

"What does this NOT mean?
- I am town (I could be scum, watch out!)" I loled at this. You may want to reword it.

---snip---

Workdawg is a great player, as scum and town(despite his record not showing it, I can say from experience).

The first part was meant to invoke LOLs. The second, thanks! *immediately narrows eyes and looks for buddying* My shitty town record is a result of too much second guessing myself, and I am really working on that from now on.

Also, quick question, if you suddenly turned into a DayCop(A cop who can check someone's alignment during the day) who would you check right now and why?

That's a really interesting question... I think probably Tierce. She's posting a lot, and she's leaning town for me right now based on that and the logic in her posts, but when my gut reaction is less sure. IIRC, she's posted some interesting things that have rubbed me the wrong way. I'll have to review her ISO after this post to try and put my finger on exactly what. Getting an exact read (via daycop) on her would make me feel a lot better.

haycorn 159 - Definitely feeling the haycorn scum that people are mentioning. Lots of filler... and then he makes a conscience effort to avoid it. Seems forced to me.

haycorn 162 - I actually rather like the analysis of SOAD here. The comments about SOAD putting himself "above accusation" do seem to ring true to me. I'll have to look into this further. I'm not as convinced as BB about SOAD yet... that might change by the time I'm caught up though.

Tierce 163 - Tierce seems to have had an opposite reaction to 162 here. I don't feel like 162 was out of line. haycorn's analysis of SOAD's playstyle is very relevant to the game and it concerns me that Tierce seems to be trying to brush it off. The comment about writing abilities I do agree with though.

SOAD 176 - Yes. That pretty much sums it up, lol. haycorn does seem to be occupied with self-preservation and not appearing scummy, both scummy behaviors... but both also natural newbie behaviors. The "defend yourself first" part I also generally agree with. I think being scum gives you a lot more incentive to try and defend yourself rather than scumhunt; probably because scumhunting is a futile effort but defending yourself is not as scum. They both kind of come naturally to a scum mindset. In general I would encourage people to scumhunt and let that act as a defense. That's not to say you should ignore questions or cases against you, but getting into a big debate with someone over your scumminess when you are town isn't really helping anyone. 

haycorn 183 - That was unexpected. As BB said, if anyone is the JK (meaning haycorn is fakeclaiming), they need to claim now.


Updated reads:

haycorn: Her claim could go towards justifying her desire for self preservation, but at the same time, I find it easy to write that off as a newb tell anyway. Leaning town.
BB: probably town
SOAD: null-maybe town. Hard to say, I'd like to hear why BB is so sure about him.
Tierce: null
inte: my intial reaction to his latest posts was to wonder if the same person is posting, lol. Leaning town
Shii: null

fathom, sampson: MOAR POSTS

[inte]

i've found it easier to post the more the discussion goes on.

[Tierce]

Wherefore art thou, fathom?

haycorn 162 - I actually rather like the analysis of SOAD here. The comments about SOAD putting himself "above accusation" do seem to ring true to me. I'll have to look into this further. I'm not as convinced as BB about SOAD yet... that might change by the time I'm caught up though.

Tierce 163 - Tierce seems to have had an opposite reaction to 162 here. I don't feel like 162 was out of line. haycorn's analysis of SOAD's playstyle is very relevant to the game and it concerns me that Tierce seems to be trying to brush it off. The comment about writing abilities I do agree with though.

There were two mentions about playstyle on haycorn's post. I thought one was relevant, the other wasn't. Should have clarified it then, so let me do so now:
Relevant:

Early in the thread, and he's already setting himself up as the arbiter of playstyle. It's actually a great trick, and I take my hat off to him. If you come out as that confident in yourself as a player, there's often a natural response to go along with it and to see opinions as valid simply because they are stated in a way that sounds so rational. "Don't take it so seriously," he says. He knows what he's doing. Of course we should listen to him and assume that all of his claims and opinions are well reasoned.

Irrelevant:

SOAD, the more I read from you, the more impressed I am by your play. You've come in guns blazing, so sure of yourself and so quick to make sure that nobody but nobody can accuse you of being scum without being mocked. I just wish that I thought you were using your powers for town, not for evil.

The post has some content that is actual analysis, (an aside: "an eye towards making a case against someone who hasn't made a case against me"? What is this if not scummy weirdness?) but it also has filler, and the paragraph just above struck me as a repetition of the kind of buddying/friendly filler she was using. We don't need to know she's impressed or wishing for something.

That's it. I like that she noticed SOAD's playstyle, but we don't need her 'ooh-ing' and 'aah-ing' in awe before the game ends.

[BBmolla]

Fathom is probably scum.

@Workdawg: Why am I probably town and why is Shii null?

[Tierce]

at the time, i thought posts #34 and #62 sort of contradict. she at firsts is in favor of bandwagoning for information, but then tries to quell shiidaji's post #52 calling for people to put pressure on. i found it very confusing.

I missed replying to this.

On #62 I was pointing out that we don't need to

lynch

fast, which was I read Shii wanted from #52. Lynching is different from bandwagons+pressure, though one comes from the other. Does this make my line of thought clearer?

[inte]

at the time, i thought posts #34 and #62 sort of contradict. she at firsts is in favor of bandwagoning for information, but then tries to quell shiidaji's post #52 calling for people to put pressure on. i found it very confusing.

I missed replying to this.

On #62 I was pointing out that we don't need to

lynch

fast, which was I read Shii wanted from #52. Lynching is different from bandwagons+pressure, though one comes from the other. Does this make my line of thought clearer?

yes. i reviewed your posts a few times and then realized you weren't talking about bandwagoning in the 2nd one a while ago. i just hadn't changed my vote.

[haycorn]

@Tierce- I said that I'd tried to make a case against someone who hadn't accused me because I didn't want my analysis to be not taken seriously because it was read as an OMGUS. That was pretty much a failure. As for the comment about being impressed with his playstyle, that was me getting overdramatic. I tend to be verbose in my writing-- I'll try to rein it in from now on.

[Tierce]

@Tierce- I said that I'd tried to make a case against someone who hadn't accused me because I didn't want my analysis to be not taken seriously because it was read as an OMGUS. That was pretty much a failure. As for the comment about being impressed with his playstyle, that was me getting overdramatic. I tend to be verbose in my writing-- I'll try to rein it in from now on.

You do have a tendency for snarkiness when riled. It does not help your case when you accuse someone else of scumminess due to perceived hostility.

You don't have to make a case, you have to scumhunt. Cases are made against people you are convinced are scum, to show to others why they are scum. Don't randomly make cases. If you are convinced someone on a wagon is scum, call them out. Odds are there will be scum on large wagons, so don't fear an accusation of OMGUS; a reasoned vote isn't an OMGUS.

I'm stuck. Going to review my reads and reread the game.

[BBmolla]

Haycorn, just to confirm, you are not a Vanilla Townie fake claiming Jailkeeper to stay alive correct?

Sorry this game is spookily similar to another.

[BBmolla]

BTW, if I were Doc, I'd protect Haycorn.

[Tierce]

Please, not that game again. ._.

In addition, if there is a Doc, don't try to out-WIFOM the mafia either ("it's obvious she'll be protected, so mafia won't bother wasting a kill attempt on her, so I'll protect someone else"). A doctor who tries that kind of gambit tends to fail it.