[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Thomith]

i guess, it was just an idea that popped into my head so i thought it probably would be swingy but i didnt know how to make it not stupid other than make the varying number but then it makes it more swingy.

[callforjudgement]

7:2 mountainous is scumsided. 7:2 mountainous no flip is thus even more scumsided, as no flip is definitely a scumsided mechanic. (Not to mention that no flip, and equivalents like what's being suggested here, are unpopular mechanics.)

[Thomith]

i tried to change it by adding a cop and a varying amount of the millers so there is at least some flips that can be relied on.

[mcqueen]

I suppose an

Anti-Lynch Miller

(appears

Anti-Lynch Miller

if lynched; appears

Mafia Goon

if nightkilled) wouldn't help or make it better, would it?

[Phillammon]

Please, Please stop posting in here...

[Quilford]

I suppose an

Anti-Lynch Miller

(appears

Anti-Lynch Miller

if lynched; appears

Mafia Goon

if nightkilled) wouldn't help or make it better, would it?

No, it wouldn't, because there is no way for mafia to be nightkilled anyway. Try thinking for five seconds before you post.

And try to not post in here for a month at least.

[GreyICE]

Basic balance facts:

10:2 mountainous is heavily scumsided
11:2 maayyyy be balanced, but is probably still scumsided.

All setups should take that into consideration.

[Amrun]

Basic balance facts:

10:2 mountainous is heavily scumsided
11:2 maayyyy be balanced, but is probably still scumsided.

All setups should take that into consideration.

That's a good point.

What would you say about 12:2 mountainous?

[izakthegoomba]

I think the only reason we haven't moved on to 12:2 or even 13:2 is the whole thing about "mini" criteria.

[IceGuy]

What would you say about 12:2 mountainous?

Almost the same as 11:2. Even numbers in mountainous games don't really change anything.

[Hoopla]

If anything, the extra townie makes it more difficult for town. Town still gets the same amount of lynches to mislynches, but the extra townie now slightly increases the town:scum ratio, meaning scum have a little more space to hide in.

[izakthegoomba]

So what about 13:2?

[Hoopla]

It's obviously better for town than 11:2, but 14:2 probably isn't as good as 13:2. It kind of works like that.

It'd probably be boring playing in a game that large when there's such a low ratio of scum, though.

[izakthegoomba]

So mountainous is a lost cause.

[Hoopla]

So mountainous is a lost cause.

Because you're pitting two teams against each in an asymmetrical fashion, balance is always going to be fluid. There will sometimes be communities or periods in time where town play is a lot more efficient than random - and even possibilities of it being worse than random.

For example, I'd expect 2:7 mountainous to be relatively balanced face-to-face, because it is much harder to eliminate your tells as scum when someone is staring into your soul. Towns (on the whole) can't generate information of that caliber online, so winrates suffer. However, I'd expect an average town here to do better than an average town on a less focused mafia site. It's reasonable to believe that one day, town play could evolve to the point where it's harder for scum, but right now, mountainous seems like a waste of time from a balance and maybe even a fun perspective.

We have a pretty good setup that is close to mountainous; White Flag.

[BBmolla]

I Dreamed a Dream

7 Townies

2 Mafia Goons

-During the night, Mafia have a night kill and a Compulsive Dream Giving.
-

Dream Giving:

The Mafia must target a town player who is not their night kill. The mafia then also select three players(X, Y, and Z), at least one of which must be Mafia. The player targeted to recieve the dream can not be one of the three players. After all is selected and night resolves, the targeted player recieves a message stating "In the players X, Y, and Z, one or more is scum."
-If a Mafia Goon is lynched d1, the Dream Giving does not occur night 1.

[IceGuy]

I don't see a situation where it would be beneficial for scum to counter-claim a dreamer.

Also, I calculated EV's, and the EV for a town win seems to be more than 70% with random lynching. This seems very town-sided.

[BBmolla]

I don't see a situation where it would be beneficial for scum to counter-claim a dreamer.

Also, I calculated EV's, and the EV for a town win seems to be more than 70% with random lynching. This seems very town-sided.

Explain how you calculated.

[IceGuy]

Explain how you calculated.

If no dream, town randomly lynches a player.
If dream, town randomly lynches a dreamed player.

[Empking]

Explain how you calculated.

If no dream, town randomly lynches a player.
If dream, town randomly lynches a dreamed player.

Can you give more detail? I got a more 40%ish score with my back matchbox calculation. If they lynch scum D1 then from then on I have them as over 70% but just then.

[BBmolla]

Explain how you calculated.

If no dream, town randomly lynches a player.
If dream, town randomly lynches a dreamed player.

Can you give more detail? I got a more 40%ish score with my back matchbox calculation. If they lynch scum D1 then from then on I have them as over 70% but just then.

Just checking to make sure it isn't autolose.

7/2
7/1
6/1(no dream)
5/1
4/1(2 are cleared by dream, 3 are possible left mafia.)
3/1(2 are cleared by dream, 2 are possible left mafia.)
2/1(1 is cleared by dream, 2 are possible left mafia.)

mk

Do you think it's too harsh on scum if one of them is lynched d1?

[Thomith]

Thing is, if scum get lynched day 1 it turns into nomination mafia, and scum will need to nominate themselves every day, which eventually will make it obvious they are scum.
If scum are not lynched day 1 they need to live to lylo otherwise the same thing might occur.

[BBmolla]

Thing is, if scum get lynched day 1 it turns into nomination mafia, and scum will need to nominate themselves every day, which eventually will make it obvious they are scum.
If scum are not lynched day 1 they need to live to lylo otherwise the same thing might occur.

I don't think so.
7/2
6/2
5/2(1 cleared by dream, 1 out of a certain 3 is mafia. Or 2.)
4/2(1 cleared by dream, 1 out of a certain 2 is mafia. Or 2.)
3/2(1 cleared by dream, 1 out of a certain 3 is mafia. Or 2.)

This doesn't even work because of the different possible combos. Bleh.

[GreyICE]

Basic balance facts:

10:2 mountainous is heavily scumsided
11:2 maayyyy be balanced, but is probably still scumsided.

All setups should take that into consideration.

That's a good point.

What would you say about 12:2 mountainous?

More scumsided than 11:2

[IceGuy]

Empking is right, I must've missed a possibility.

Day 1: 2 scum, 7 town
- (2/9) Day 2: 1 scum, 6 town
-- (1/7)

Town win

-- (6/7) Day 3: 1 scum, 4 town

(dream)

--- (1/3)

Town win

--- (2/3) Day 4: 1 scum, 2 town

(dream)

---- (1/2)

Town win

---- (1/2)

Scum win

- (7/9) Day 2: 2 scum, 5 town

(dream)

-- (1/3) Day 3: 1 scum, 4 town

(dream)

--- (1/3)

Town win

--- (2/3) Day 4: 1 scum, 2 town

(dream)

---- (1/2)

Town win

---- (1/2)

Scum win

-- (2/3) Day 3: 2 scum, 3 town

(dream)

--- (1/2) Day 4: 1 scum, 2 town

(dream)

---- (1/2)

Town win

---- (1/2)

Scum win

--- (1/2)

Scum win

That's (2/9 * 6/7 * 2/3 * 1/2) + (7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2) + (7/9 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2) + (7/9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2) for a scum win, or 611/1134, or slightly less than 54%.