Open 402 -- Hard Boiled (Game Over!)

[BK201]

the one completed game I have with you, rasberry, is open 397. I ISO'd you, and you explained a lot more, considering you have not explained anything this game.

[raspberrylicious]

Girl, it's day one.
Calm down.
I voted Thomith as RVS/pressure.
I voted Venmar because I have a feeling about him.
I've done nothing else, and have nothing else to explain.

[BK201]

the game isn't just about explaining your own actions.

girl?

[Thomith]

L-2 when we were clearly outside of RVS isn't RVS and is a bad explanation imo, also you are voting, so you do have things to explain.

[Venmar]

Raspberry hasn't been useful at all so far. Him denying to really say anything because he doesn't have anything to explain sounds scummy. Basically, not willing to help us in any way and not contributing is anti-town.

[TeChNoWC]

I like Venmar and would support adding him to the alliance.

Even though thomith is scummier, IMO, BwB would be the smarter lynch.

:/

I still think Thomith is probably a better lynch than Burke, but

:/

Make a case for who you think is scummiest. Annoying and not really contributing are not necessarily scum traits. Personally, I would rather lynch rasp or thomith before bw.

I think we should have the Hider claim, and have the Tracker/Vig choose Tracker. Hider claim + Tracker follow is awesome. (props to LF for thinking of this)

Yeah, I think the hider should claim now.

@BK I'm not sure how this would work. If the Hider claims, and the tracker follows him, then the tracker would have to claim to be able to tell us who he hid behind, thus:
a) scum will know who the tracker and hider are or
b) scum have claimed tracker and hider and are now leading town down a deadly path of destruction.

Tracker doesn't claim until the hider dies. If tracker dies, hider claims his innocents. That way, scum won't be able to kill the innocents as the hider claims them. If scum decide to claim hider/tracker, then they will be counterclaimed, and we get free scum.

Ok, so given BK has claimed Hider, does this mean come D2 he tells us who he hid behind? And if they survived, this confirms they are town?

What if BK is scum, and claimed to hide behind one of his scum partners? Now we have two scum out of the firing line, and great odds at a mislynch, then come D3 we are pretty much fucked.

Tell me if I am missing something.

[Arugula]

If BK is scum claiming hider, the real hider would claim and we would lynch BK.

[LlamaFluff]

If BK is scum claiming hider, the real hider would claim and we would lynch BK.

Eyup

Im interested to see what Bw brings to the table when he comes back here.

@rasp - Was your vote on Thomith RVS or pressure, those are two entirely different things. What is your current read on him too? Additionally, try and explain your Venmar read.

[TeChNoWC]

If BK is scum claiming hider, the real hider would claim and we would lynch BK.

That crossed my mind, and if no one claims I am fine with it (which means we need to hear from everyone until the end of D1). If no one claims I'm happy to take the risk and trust him, but if someone was to claim, whose to say which one is lying? You yourself just said that if someone was to claim we would lynch BK, which is a great opening now (if BK is town), for a scum to claim hider.

Ok, just realised this would then expose the true scum who misclaimed, if that scenario arose. Sounds good enough to me, let's do it.

Need to hear back from Burke and at this stage and would like him to claim.

[DCLXVI]

Sorry, wasn't able to finish my catchup post yet. I am working on it.

However, at the moment I'm seeing venmar and thomith as possible scum. (wouldn't say right now if they could be partners)

Seeing Llama as town, BK 201 is obvious town since no counterclaim.

I'm also slightly suspicious of techno, I don't like his initial distrust of BK, feels almost like scum trying to undermine the hider track strat thing.

Also, setup question to the mod.

Is the tracker capable of following the hider, I was under the impression that if the hider hid, then he couldn't be targeted by anyone...

[Chimera]

Votecount 1.9

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-06-08 14:40:00)

Venmar (4) -- andrew94, Lowman, Thomith, raspberrylicious
raspberrylicious (2) -- BK201, nachomamma8
BK201 (1) -- BwBurke
BwBurke (4) -- LlamaFluff, Arugula, Venmar, Kassadin

Not voting-- DCLXVI, TeChNoWC

LowMan are BwBurke are on V/LA. Prodding andrew94

Is the tracker capable of following the hider, I was under the impression that if the hider hid, then he couldn't be targeted by anyone...

I'm...not actually 100% certain. I'm pretty sure that yes he can; hiding is basically visiting another player to avoid being nightkilled. I'll find out for sure and let you guys know at some point today (busy day) but for now we'll go with yes.

[Thomith]

just something i missed, rasp it is day 1, but that doesn't mean you can just post nothing and jump around with no content.

FOS:rasp

start doing something.

[TeChNoWC]

Sorry, wasn't able to finish my catchup post yet. I am working on it.

However, at the moment I'm seeing venmar and thomith as possible scum. (wouldn't say right now if they could be partners)

Seeing Llama as town, BK 201 is obvious town since no counterclaim.

I'm also slightly suspicious of techno, I don't like his initial distrust of BK, feels almost like scum trying to undermine the hider track strat thing.

Also, setup question to the mod.

Is the tracker capable of following the hider, I was under the impression that if the hider hid, then he couldn't be targeted by anyone...

My INITIAL distrust of BK was long before he claimed, but with no counterclaim thus far, and until there is, I trust his claim.

Even if hypothetically BK was hider and I was scum, there would be no way of me knowing he was hider, so your point is moot.

[raspberrylicious]

@rasp - Was your vote on Thomith RVS or pressure, those are two entirely different things. What is your current read on him too? Additionally, try and explain your Venmar read.

- Pressure, I'd say. Nothing puts more pressure on someone than L-2, right?
- Neutral to leaning scum.
- It's just this weird feeling I get from reading his posts, y'know?

FOS:rasp

Oh, no!

[Nachomamma8]

just something i missed, rasp it is day 1, but that doesn't mean you can just post nothing and jump around with no content.

FOS:rasp

start doing something.

does rasp being on the Venmar wagon with you give you any doubts?

Unvote, Vote: BwBurke

i'm actually liking rasp's most recent posting. not enough to call him a town read, but enough from not wanting him to burn a fiery and painful death.

[andrew94]

i didnt get a prod but im still here!!!

[Arugula]

i didnt get a prod but im still here!!!

Why don't you post something constructive then? Any comments on Bw, Thomith, Venmar, BK's claim, Tech, or the alliance?

[Nachomamma8]

Welcome back, Low Man!
I trust you'll be posting again now that you've made your return?

[andrew94]

i didnt get a prod but im still here!!!

Why don't you post something constructive then? Any comments on Bw, Thomith, Venmar, BK's claim, Tech, or the alliance?

i made that post so i dont get prodded? im busy atm
also look at your posts


pot kettle black

[andrew94]

well tech, how goes the iso.

i didnt say thomith was sheeping. i was saying Venmar was sheeping. the quotes that i posted were when someone else already said something similar



I also dont believe meta..

even though kass admitted they were a troll, they usually still give reasons and play at least a little, do you say we just ignore them all game because they are a troll andrew?

Where did i say we should just ignore them all day. i was basically saying, if they had reasons they would have posted it already.
instead of just voting

tech is looking town for post 215 but then post 233 is over cautious. i dont believe that he would not have thought of that. obviously the real one would counter...

thomith post 221 looks like scum


and the plan is assuming the tracker picks tracker...



argula is scum due to gut.

BK's claim- if not1 cc i believe
Tech- reaching null now
Venmar- scummy
Thomith- scummy
Bw - i dont even know he existed. he posts way too low, null.
alliance- only ppl i like in alliance is prob nacho and kassadin and bk if he doesnt get cc
. everyone else is meh

[Venmar]

@Andrew94

- Can you explain your suspicions on me?
- Why do you like Nacho and Kassadin in the alliance?
- Why does post 221 make Thomith look like scum?

- These are simple things, i don't like it when people make reads and lists and then make no explanations for them. It would always be nice if everyone did so because it saves time, and it helps town. You made some explanations, and i congratulate you on that, but there are some holes. Stating something like "hes scum" and provide no opinion or explanation to back up that claim, then you are not helping anyone. Instead of that, do something along the lines of "hes scum because of X,Y and Z", or "hes scum because of action X, action b, reaction Z", ect.

- The above point also applies to BwBurker, Rast, and LowMan. I would also say Kassadin but he just plays like that...

[Arugula]

i didnt get a prod but im still here!!!

Why don't you post something constructive then? Any comments on Bw, Thomith, Venmar, BK's claim, Tech, or the alliance?

i made that post so i dont get prodded? im busy atm
also look at your posts


pot kettle black

I've been posting. Saying pot kettle black (which I had to google) is stupid.

Anyway, as Venmar said, could you explain why your reads are what they are?

[DCLXVI]

Hey, everyone, sorry this took a day longer, but yeah, I totally forgot about the marathon weekend.

Anyone basically what this is is my thoughts on posts throughout the game. Some of it is insightful, some of it is just mundane stuff. I'm doing this partly to give you guys an idea of what I think of the game so far and also to help myself understand the game. So yeah, reads and cases will come tomorrow though you can probably tell what my positions are on most people from this post. I will highlight important stuff from here when I do the read post.

Page 1:

Spoiler:

post 5, Venmar:

I don't like RQS. None of the questions here are going to help town do anything. I agree with Llama's assessment of it in post 21.
I will answer the experience question as it is the only one that isn't bad. I have three completed games on MS: 1 town win, two town losses. I am dead in one ongoing game and alive in 4 others.

I do like that Venmar is still doing RVS, this does mitigate some of my concern over the bad RQS questions. Still consider it slightly scummy.

post 6, Thomith

Interesting how he is quick to answer the questions without any concerns with them.

post 8, Thomith

Don't like how Thomith is quick to say that he thought something was reaction testing. I don't see town motivation for doing so..it just feels odd and out of place.

post 10, Lowman

Hm..Another person answering the RQS without any concerns.

post 11, BK201

Also answers RQS.

post 13, raspberrylicious

Also answers RQS without hesitation. (If this seems repetitive I am getting at something here, just wait a bit.)

post 14, LlamaFluff

First person to have a problem with the RQS. I just don't see scum coming in and trying to stop something that would be beneficial to them. I have an early town-read on Llama from this.

post 16, LowMan

So Lowman wants to PL the first person to make sense this game...great idea...

post 17, Venmar

This response is very interesting, and in fact also rather townie. Venmar thinks that Llama has a problem with the last to RQS questions. It would seem to me that scum Venmar would think that Llama would have a problem with all of them in the case of Llama's saying he doesn't like the questions. If venmar's intention with the RQS was to aid scum, I don't think this is the initial defense he would have given. It is still possible that Venmar could be scum and the RQS was just random stuff that wasn't meant to help the mafia, but I don't think these questions were intentionally bad.

post 20, Thomith

Feels like he needs to defend Llama, interesting. Some buddying going on here perhaps?

post 21, LlamaFluff

Good posting.

Page 2:

Spoiler:

post 25, Venmar

The whole, Oh, you don't really have to answer them if you don't want to is a lame excuse, the fact is that they still don't help town. Venmar is sidestepping the complaint about his questions. I don't like this.

post 27, Venmar

Still sidestepping the issue of the questions being inherently anti-town. I agree with him that the point of RQS (or RVS for that matter) is to get something going. Doing RQS isn't really the issue. The problem lies more with what questions were asked and venmar isn't addressing that yet which bothers me.

post 30, Venmar

Nice vague response by Venmar that still ignores the problem with his RQS.

post 32, Thomith

Good point by Thomith. Discussion for the sake of discussion is not helpful.

post 33, Venmar

From a theory standpoint this is the typical defense of RQS, nothing wrong with the theory defense. However, the problem is NOT RQS it is the questions that were chosen. Venmar has still yet to defend his questions, or even acknowledge that other people see them as the problem.

Also, venmar states that RQS "Avoids mindless random voting, which some view as accomplishing nothing to get the game rolling." Wait, if RVS is bad why did you do it venmar.

post 35, Venmar

Wait, venmar isn't actually against it even though he just said that it is bad. I think he is having trouble keeping his story straight at this point.

post 41, LlamaFluff

I do agree that it appears that venmar really believes that RQS is good. But this whole discussion did NOT start off as RQS theory. The problem was that the questions were anti-town.

Why is nobody bringing that up?

post 42, Kassadin

Don't like his entrance here. Doesn't mention the debate over the RQS questions and just answers him. I suppose he could have just read the first page, but that is really lazy play.

post 43, andrew94

Good point about how Venmar's first post comes across as nuetral. Let's see how venmar responds to that.

post 44, Venmar

More RQS defense and side-stepping by venmar.

post 45, Venmar

Well, it looks like venmar doesn't respond to the accusation that he is intentionally being neutral in his first post. The point that andrew made was right at the top of his post. I don't like how venmar is now consistantly side-stepping accusations towards himself. It isn't that he isn't responding, but he isn't responding to the actually accusations.

post 48, Nachomamma8

A lot of things to dislike here. First, voting someone for "intentionally not contributing enough to the game" at the page 2 is seriously lame. Feels like nacho is stretching to find a reason to vote for someone. Don't like this at all.

Don't like the town read on venmar, doesn't make sense at all, not with what I've seen from venmar.
I can slightly understand the scum read on thomith, however like the town read on venmar it is rather weak.
Fine with him viewing Llama as town though it is done for different reasons.
Then another scum read for not doing enough this time on Lowman?,

Don't like how nacho is calling people scum for not saying enough before page two is even over.

post 49, Venmar

And...here we go again..venmar defends RQS and defines the case against him as one against RQS, again sidestepping the issue. I think at this point he has succeeded in turning the case against him from having anti-town questions into a debate over RQS theory to the point where no one seems to remember how this debate started. I'm seeing venmar as scum right now.

Page 3:

Spoiler:

post 51, LowMan

Odd that he would fos nacho instead of voting him, don't see the point in it at all.

post 53, LowMan

Not liking this at all, he finds Llama scummy for asking for an early lynch, yet he turns around and does the same thing by requesting a PL on Llama, then tries now to pass it off as a joke.

post 54, LlamaFluff

Quickly calls Lowman's play being from VI, instead of calling the play scummy, interesting.

post 60, Thomith

Don't like his use of meta to clear kass, I'm not usually a big fan of meta (yes I know I asked venmar for meta links, and I didn't see what I was looking for in them.) Especially vague stuff like (oh, he always plays like that.)

post 63, TeChNoWC

Don't like how techno is defending the venmar's RQS questions, he didn't do a very good job either.

post 73, Thomith

Another post from Thomith that I do not like, don't like how he is tying kass's alignment to a llama/bk flip. In his owns words Thomith said that scum will jump on kass regardless of whether kass is town or scum because of how kass plays. So if the previous thomith statement is to be believed, then the alignment of kass' accusers should not affect a read on kass...

Page 4:

Spoiler:

post 75, Kassadin

I fully agree.

post 76, Thomith

Previously thomith has said that kass acts the same regardless of alignment and that scum generally jump on kass regardless of kass' alignment. So why now is kass' alignment being tide to her attackers? It is like thomith has completely forgotten his meta defense of kass.

post 79, Kassadin

Not sure why people are against kass at this point in time, she seems to be making sense.

post 80, TeChNoWC

Completely disagree, the tracker will be trusted after his claim as long as the claim isn't done in lylo. Highly unlikely scum would CC outside of lylo, it seems borderline anti-town to try to convince someone that a vig will be the better option.

I don't like the whole, PL kass now stuff coming from llama and BK, what is annoying looking at it now is that I have a strong townread on Llama and BK is 99.99% likely to be town.

post 83, BK201

Personal vendetta's against other players aren't helpful, unless that person is like really bad. From what I've seen of kass it isn't like he is terrible.

post 84, TeChNoWC

Good point by Techno, I don't agree with everything he says, but so far at least he is presenting his thoughts in a very logical manner and easy to understand.

post 85, Venmar

Hm, very intersting how venmar comes in here and defends kass, however, his defense is a sheep of what techno did in the previous post. It seems as if he was waiting for someone else to defend kass before he came in and did it. If venmar were to flip scum, kass makes sense as a potential partner.

post 87, Arugula

Good observation by argula, exactly what I had been seeing out of thomith as well.

post 89, BwBurke"]VOTE: Kassadin

That has to be the stupidist reason to fos someone. Also the vote town fos buddy thing seems to potentially be in effect here. The claim that argula lengthened his post to look more town is just completed awful.

post 96, LowMan

Still not getting the kass stuff, why? I'm not getting the whole policy lynch kass at this point, I think there is a least one scum voting kass at this point, I'll need to look at that later.

Page 5:

Spoiler:

post 100, andrew94

Another player who is making sense here. Good posting,

post 102, BK201

If BK wasn't practically confirmed town right now, I would really dislike his refusal to explain a vote...

post 104, raspberrylicious

Don't like how raspberry only shows up when voted and doesn't add anything else. Not pretty or townish.

post 106, TeChNoWC

Good points by techno, like how he is thinking about the game logically. I think that a thomith vote would have been better here but whatever.

post 109, Nachomamma8

Like this post by nacho at lot better than his previous one (~48 I believe). I agree with a lot of what he is saying, I'm liking him more after this.

post 111, Thomith

I haven't see venmar say that he think kass is town, all venmar is doing is arguing against a quicklynch based on meta. Thomith again appears to be stretching the facts to find someone to be scummy. What is funny is that venmar has done legit scummy things but thomith isn't talking about those.

post 112, BwBurke

Hm, a vote without a case I don't like these.

post 114, Thomith

Not making any sense at all with his "case" against venmar. While I am seeing both venmar and thomith as scummy. I'm not too sure they could both be scum.

post 117, LowMan

This sheeping onto a poor case looks ugly. Not liking lowman right now.

post 124, Arugula

Good job pointing out how the thomith case on venmar is terrible. It just bugs me though that everyone seems to have forgotten how the game started.

Page 6:

Spoiler:

post 128],BwBurke

Probably the worst post I've seen so far this game. ugh, seriously? Perfect example of pot calling kettle black right here.

post 131, Nachomamma8

He isn't posting a lot but he is thinking logically right now and makes sense. Slight town read on nacho.

post 133, TeChNoWC

Yep, liking him as well. I would say I have a town read on Tech at this point as well.

post 140, Kassadin

Beginning to see why people may not like kass. Don't get me wrong I like the vote, but votes need to be explained.

post 142, raspberrylicious

Oh lolz, a second straight plain vote on thomith. Again, I like the target but votes should be explained. Very funny to see this happen. a raspberry/kass scumteam would be extremely unlikely.

post 146, BK201

kudos to BK for actually looking up the kass meta, that is something I'm usually to lazy to do, this isn't something scum would do I think. Also, gives me more reason to suspect thomith.

Page 7:

Spoiler:

post 150, raspberrylicious

Forget the BW post, this is terrible. I would almost say it is borderline rolefishing right here, if you think someone is scum, you make a case on them. You don't vote them and then ask them to say why they aren't scum. I'm finding raspberry scummy as well.

post 163, LlamaFluff

Alliances now....well that will greatly depend on who is in it. I can't say I really like them, too much potential to get things screwed up if they contain one scum, of course if two scum get in...that is even worse.

post 165, Kassadin

Ugh, I didn't mind kass' early game, but this is just annoying. I dislike trolls.

post 167, Venmar

FINALLY. Venmar actually acknowledges that the way his RQS was done might be the problem, not the fact that he did RQS. Took him long enough.

post 169, TeChNoWC

Exactly what I was thinking about the alliance thingy.

Page 8:

Spoiler:

post 175, TeChNoWC

Disagree with techno right here. Llama isn't "witholding" anything really. Since he is planning on giving the information eventually I don't see how this is bad. Not much different than saying he won't give a read until a question gets answered. I get where techno is trying to go with this but he is just wrong.

post 182, raspberrylicious

Great, now we have two trolls in the game right now. Ugh, this is annoying.

post 183, BwBurke

Yeah, pretty sure he qualifies as a troll as well. How lovely.

post 196, LlamaFluff

No problem with nacho and argula being in an alliance. BUT NOT KASS, seriously though, trolls do not belong in alliances. It is a bad idea even if you have a town read on kass (I'm not sure about him at the moment but that isn't the point)

post 197, BwBurke

Confirmed as a troll.

Page:9

Spoiler:

post 201, Arugula

Wrong, the scummier player is always the better lynch. This post along with willingness to get into the alliance and immediately sheep Llama makes me very uncomfortable with Arugula...

post 205, Venmar

Don't like this at all. Look, everyone knows that BW has been playing crummy. This whole post reeks of "look how town I am, I can point out every exact tiny minute scummy thing that bw has done" in other words it is overkill. Scum trying to justify voting a townsperson. (if venmar is scum bw is very likely town.)

I'm going to stop here because this is wear I came in.

[DCLXVI]

My INITIAL distrust of BK was long before he claimed, but with no counterclaim thus far, and until there is, I trust his claim.

Even if hypothetically BK was hider and I was scum, there would be no way of me knowing he was hider, so your point is moot.

Yeah, as I read through the thread I saw that you indeed has previous distrust of BK, which I don't have a problem with as some of his play was sketchy. I'm actually glad he was the hider because that eliminates one potential scum read.

[TeChNoWC]

Officially nominating DCLXVI as the best replace in person on mafiascum for the most detailed catchup post I've ever seen.

Thought I should clarify a few things from your post:

1) I have no problem with RQS, as long as the questions don't have potential rolefishing questions and the such. I didn't think any of those questions did, and Venmar's personality lines up with his possible motives to RQS. He says he is a generally chatty player, and he does come across that way. If an RQS had supsicious looking questions and the poster lurked there on in and posted one liners, I'd be very concerned. Venmar does worry me and I find him hard to read, and you're right, his vote on Burke was somewhat sus, though I need to go back through and check his earlier opinions on Burke. In my experience though, noob often wagon when sound reasoning is given whether scum or town, because they don't trust their own judgements well enough and want to fit into the crowd, even when town. Venmar isn't noob noob, so I am not sure how much this applies to him but noob town are often somewhat hesitant and nervous about how they look towards other players, so I try not to take it as a scumtell. That being said I find it really hard to read Venmar, and he gives me both scum and town vibes. I was really hoping I could access the meta link he provided as I was confident that would clarify the issue for me.
2) I've had little experience with complex power roles, if any. I've never played a game with Tracker, and I wanted to get my head around how each role would benefit town. Vig's do worry me but tracker seemed somewhat useless to me at first (sort of like an underpowered cop), but I realise now it's subtle effectiveness.

@Andrew94 Not sure why I didn't think of counterclaim + flip, don't know where my head was at. Might have something to do with the fact I was tipsy at the time, lol.

I'm having trouble working out when deadline is with timezones + no actual date given, etc, but from the mods initial votecount it seems to be about 4 days away? Which means Burke isn't going to be back until D2. He may come back before his VL/A ends but that's only a possibility. I'm willing to wait until closer to deadline, but if no other suitable lynch is found, Burke should be it.

DC, you said in your catchup that burke seemed scummy, but you weren't clear. Do you think he is just a loltroll or actually scum?