Open 441 - Chosen Mafia (OVER)

[Eidolon]

^ Ahh, nevermind. I get what you are saying Stab. That it gave us good info, and probably more straightfoward info than a long drawn out thing.

[Whiskers]

McStab, your vote counts just as much as mine therefore you are as responsible for the lynch as anyone else who voted Pasch. Each vote counts the same. It is the justification that one gives for their votes that matters. I gave very detailed justification for voting pasch as did whiskers and Eidolon.

detail=/=town. Scum can build detailed cases.

Om, we know is town. People voted for Pasch because they thought he was scummy. If you didn't think he was scummy, you should not have voted. Hindsight is 20-20. You vote for him, get him lynched, and then say that the other voters are scummy. That itself is scummy.

No, it's not. I voted for him, Eido voted for him, we have also agreed that it's likely that there was at least on mafia member on the wagon. Not suspecting the rest of the wagon, just because they voted with you, is stupid.
Also, is McStab's rational for voting Paschendale good, or bad? Why?

Also, you say you were going to look closer at the final voters if Pasch flipped VT. However, I am not one of the final votes on Pasch. I was the second.

Well, the final voter is dead. Were you trying to direct McStab to attack me, too?

I haven't played on this site before and my initial responses were asking what is going on. Asking questions is not suspicious.

Rapidcanyon reacted very weirdly to pressure at the start, taking non-serious RVS reasons extremely seriously

(but only the ones on himself)

.

[McStab]

McStab, your vote counts just as much as mine therefore you are as responsible for the lynch as anyone else who voted Pasch. Each vote counts the same. It is the justification that one gives for their votes that matters. I gave very detailed justification for voting pasch as did whiskers and Eidolon. Om, we know is town. People voted for Pasch because they thought he was scummy. If you didn't think he was scummy, you should not have voted. Hindsight is 20-20. You vote for him, get him lynched, and then say that the other voters are scummy. That itself is scummy.

Also, you say you were going to look closer at the final voters if Pasch flipped VT. However, I am not one of the final votes on Pasch. I was the second.

I haven't played on this site before and my initial responses were asking what is going on. Asking questions is not suspicious.

Nonsense, you were the one who set it in motion. You provided a rationale for others to jump on, you led the charge when no one else was listening, and you didn't try to stop it after it got moving. You were the chief orchestrator of the wagon.

Your justification was longer and detailed; this was because you needed to convince others. Whiskers' justification was reasonable (but not totally above reproach) and Eidolon's justification was barely a rehashing of a few of the points in your case.

I never said Pasch wasn't scummy. I said I was fine if he flipped something else other than scum, though, too. There's a difference between me saying "I think Pasch is town" and me thinking "I think Pasch is scum, but if he flips town, which is very possible, it's still not that bad".

I was going to look at the final voters, but then Om got shot and my townread on Whiskers has gone way up since the last time I looked at him. Eidolon's question-asking has pretty much made him conf. town in my opinion, and I know my own alignment. This leaves you.

Also, for a newbie, you seemed to catch onto RVS pretty quickly. In fact, you said it yourself right here:

Real GF, If you see my posts, you'll see that most of my questions were genuine and an attempt to understand a style of play that I haven't played before. I am also trying to make connections with an environment I know so I feel more comfortable. You are essentially saying that since I am acting how town often acts, I am mafia. This can turn into an endless WIFOM cycle. Mafia lurks but town talks. So, mafia talks in order to seem town. But then, once people think that players who are talking are mafia, mafia will lurk again. There is no set policy. You could twist it any way you want.

Eidolon, yes claims don't matter.

So, why did you vote me in the first place? I assumed it was a joke/non-serious vote just to make me say that I am town and to promote activity.

You were well aware of RVS.


@Eidolon:

Here is my logic:

Pasch could very well be scum. If he flips scum, RC is town, and the people on the wagon gain some towncred.

Pasch could be VT. If he flips VT, it's likely the opportunists at the end of the wagon than the carefully planned start that are scum. This is no longer my view, in that Om is dead and Whiskers is a townread. I don't think it's an all town wagon though, so I think RC is the scum.

Pasch could be Chosen Townie. If he flips Chosen Townie, RC is obvscum for orchestrating the case on him, we lynch RC, and it's back to 1 scum 1 CT. No big deal.


I wasn't settling on a townie lynch, I was hoping for a scum lynch. It just wasn't a disaster if we happened to lynch town, because the wagon gave us a boatload of information.


The fact you think I could be scum for jumping on the wagon of a flipped VT for no stated reason is evidence of this information; now, I am providing my rationale. My point is proven though. Your suspicion of me is based entirely on Pasch's flip.

[rapidcanyon]

I will say this though. RC said something that struck me as odd after the lynch was made. He said that if pasch flips vt, people on his wagon are likely town because scum will have no motivation to go after a vanilla.

RC, why would scum have no reason to mislynch? Even given the setup, a mislynch is the step in the right direction for scum because it eliminates the chance of making connections due to a scumflip.

Pasch was scummy. I initially thought that his lynch was mostly town-driven. Even after the next day started, I wanted to hear from the ones who didn't vote Pasch. This was before McStab's analysis. Had McStab justified his vote for Pasch, I would have felt the same way even now. However, he defends Pasch now while he had previously just quoted my case and voted Pasch. So, I changed my mind about it.

Ehh. I still feel weird about mcstabs "knowing" lynch of a townie to gain info.

DUDE. what if he was chosen?! Seriously. Why tread carelessly with such a thing?

Ehhh. i've got to let it marinate.

Pedit: Dang. mega-ninja'd. Mcstab, it is stil going on. Probably shouldn't have brought it up but that was a main suspicion of me for you.

Could you please elaborate on the "point proven" thing? My accusation of you proves you right about what?

@ Whiskers: I was referring to mcstab. he basically said that he was okay with lynching a townie and i don't see the town motivation for that.[/quote]

[Eidolon]

McStab, your vote counts just as much as mine therefore you are as responsible for the lynch as anyone else who voted Pasch. Each vote counts the same.

It is the justification that one gives for their votes that matters.

I gave very detailed justification for voting pasch as did whiskers and Eidolon. Om, we know is town. People voted for Pasch because they thought he was scummy. If you didn't think he was scummy, you should not have voted. Hindsight is 20-20. You vote for him, get him lynched, and then say that the other voters are scummy. That itself is scummy.

Also, you say you were going to look closer at the final voters if Pasch flipped VT. However, I am not one of the final votes on Pasch. I was the second.

I haven't played on this site before and my initial responses were asking what is going on. Asking questions is not suspicious.

It is not the justification, it is the motivation.

Why would scum would have no motivation to be on a pasch vt lynch?

[Whiskers]

the fu-- oh.
edit by way of pony:

McStab, your vote counts just as much as mine therefore you are as responsible for the lynch as anyone else who voted Pasch. Each vote counts the same. It is the justification that one gives for their votes that matters. I gave very detailed justification for voting pasch as did whiskers and Eidolon.

detail=/=town. Scum can build detailed cases.

Om, we know is town. People voted for Pasch because they thought he was scummy. If you didn't think he was scummy, you should not have voted. Hindsight is 20-20. You vote for him, get him lynched, and then say that the other voters are scummy. That itself is scummy.

No, it's not. I voted for him, Eido voted for him, we have also agreed that it's likely that there was at least on mafia member on the wagon. Not suspecting the rest of the wagon, just because they voted with you, is stupid.
Also, is McStab's rational for voting Paschendale good, or bad? Why?

Also, you say you were going to look closer at the final voters if Pasch flipped VT. However, I am not one of the final votes on Pasch. I was the second.

Well, the final voter is dead. Were you trying to direct McStab to attack me, too?

I haven't played on this site before and my initial responses were asking what is going on. Asking questions is not suspicious.

Rapidcanyon reacted very weirdly to pressure at the start, taking non-serious RVS reasons extremely seriously

(but only the ones on himself)

.

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

[McStab]

^ Ahh, nevermind. I get what you are saying Stab. That it gave us good info, and probably more straightfoward info than a long drawn out thing.

Precisely. 95% of the time I would disagree with quick days, but I feel confident in the following based off of yesterday:

That you are town. That RC is scum. That if RC is scum, RGF is scum with him. That Whiskers is more likely than average to be town.

The only thing I think we lost from yesterday was the ability of crypto to get replaced or speak, but this was a relatively small trade off for what we've gained.

[Whiskers]

Oh hey, I'm glad you brought that up:

@MOD: Has there been any word from Crypto? Is he going to be

in

this game?

[rapidcanyon]

My biggest scumread is McStab. His rationale was terrible. I made a case, he bandwagons, and rather than justify why Pasch was scum, he refutes my case against Pasch which he should have done when the case was first posted.

Unsure on whiskers who seemed fairly eager to agree with McStab.

[rapidcanyon]

@ McStab, why are you so certain that everyone else on the wagon is town?

[Eidolon]

you dodged my question, rc. why would scum have no motivation for a pasch vt lynch?

[rapidcanyon]

you dodged my question, rc. why would scum have no motivation for a pasch vt lynch?

I said scum wouldn't have a motivation to vote on a VT lynch that would have happened regardless of whether they voted or not.

If X was scum and town was so surely heading towards a mislynch, why would X vote on it?

[rapidcanyon]

@ Eidolon, why are you eager to buy McStab's explanation? He is basically accusing people of making a case for lynching someone on which he bandwagoned.

[McStab]

My biggest scumread is McStab. His rationale was terrible. I made a case, he bandwagons, and rather than justify why Pasch was scum, he refutes my case against Pasch which he should have done when the case was first posted.

Unsure on whiskers who seemed fairly eager to agree with McStab.

Basically OMGUS. And yet you still haven't cast a vote for me. Please, explain how I'm wrong, when the fact is, allowing Pasch to flip has got you caught up and flailing. You're arguments against me are evidence of my rationale's success.


As for why I'm certain that everyone else is town, I didn't say that. I'm pretty certain Eidolon isn't, but that's for reasons totally independent of the wagon (his meta, his inquisitive attitude, his careful balancing of points, and willingness to force people to answer). I know Om isn't, because he's dead. I have a townread on Whiskers for the same reasons as Eidolon, I simply don't lump her into the confirmed town pile because I know she's very skilled as scum. That leaves you, me, or the idea that no one on that quick wagon Day One was scum. I know I'm not, which leaves you. I then looked at your ISO and it's confirmed my suspicions for reasons I just stated. It would make sense to have RGF as your partner too, because you started up Pasch's wagon to try and save him.

[McStab]

@ Eidolon, why are you eager to buy McStab's explanation? He is basically accusing people of making a case for lynching someone on which he bandwagoned.

And I've provided ample rationale for my bandwagoning. You haven't countered my rationale in a meaningful way at all.

[Eidolon]

you dodged my question, rc. why would scum have no motivation for a pasch vt lynch?

I said scum wouldn't have a motivation to vote on a VT lynch that would have happened regardless of whether they voted or not.

If X was scum and town was so surely heading towards a mislynch, why would X vote on it?

You still didn't answer my question. WHYYYY???

Either Mcstab is a genius at covering himself or he is town.

"If he flips VT, I am assuming most people are town since scum won't really have a motivation to add to an inevitable lynch unless they have something to gain and he did play scummily."

This is your exact quote. now I want to know WHY?

[Eidolon]

^ and what makes you think that town will inevitably vote on this wagon?

[rapidcanyon]

McStab is obviously scum. He bandwagons and then accuses the person who made the case.

Vote: McStab

I just answered it. Why put their vote on a mislynch if they can avoid it?

[Whiskers]

you dodged my question, rc. why would scum have no motivation for a pasch vt lynch?

I said scum wouldn't have a motivation to vote on a VT lynch that would have happened regardless of whether they voted or not.

If X was scum and town was so surely heading towards a mislynch, why would X vote on it?

You still didn't answer my question. WHYYYY???

Either Mcstab is a genius at covering himself or he is town.

"If he flips VT, I am assuming most people are town since scum won't really have a motivation to add to an inevitable lynch unless they have something to gain and he did play scummily."

This is your exact quote. now I want to know WHY?

^I think he may mean, "why would scum hammer that lynch? it's much more likely that they'd be in, oh, the third and fourth places on the wagon, and at L-1, any remaining scum would just sit back and let the wagon go through."

[rapidcanyon]

^ and what makes you think that town will inevitably vote on this wagon?

Speed at which it was moving.

Pedit: Either whiskers is brilliant as scum or just town.

[Eidolon]

In your own words, he was playing "scummily" so why NOT put their vote on it? Who is to say that it is an inevitable town move to lynch him?

Seems more like you are trying to cover your tracks.

Ehh. I had a townmeta read on you though. I'll come back later. I'd still like to hear more from rgf grey and the inactive dude. O.o

[McStab]

McStab is obviously scum. He bandwagons and then accuses the person who made the case.

Vote: McStab

I just answered it. Why put their vote on a mislynch if they can avoid it?

Gross oversimplification of my argument, and yet another example of you misconstruing what I am trying to say. Also funny how you now lay down your vote only after I pressure you for not putting it down.

[rapidcanyon]

You answer my question: are you seriously buying McStab's argument?

[McStab]

You answer my question: are you seriously buying McStab's argument?

What have you put forth to refute it? So far you've basically sat there calling it incredulous without providing any reasons as to why it is incredulous. You're also trying to shift the debate from you needing to justify what you've said.

[rapidcanyon]

McStab, have you ever seen a townie provide a case for lynching another townie? It happens extremely often.

Your strategy of lynching a player, seeing their flip and then lynching the player that provided a case seems to me a setup for a double mislynch. Everyone who votes on a player's lynch is responsible for that lynch. You not giving reasons for your vote makes it more likely that you are the scum as opposed to less likely.

Your strategy wouldn't work simply because town is just as likely to provide a case for lynching town as is scum. The fact that used such a flawed strategy is indicative of your alignment.