Open 441 - Chosen Mafia (OVER)

[rapidcanyon]

You were also certain I was mafia but won't vote for me until you hear from the inactives because you don't scum's votes to be the only votes on me so if I flip chosen, you won't be found out so easily.

[Eidolon]

Here i why i believed Mcstab: His play makes sense as town. Even if i don't necessarily agree with what he did last day phase, he was being honest about it. Hmm. His responses gave me the right vibes, if that makes sense. They came from town intentions. I knew he couldn't have been so convinced pasch was scum so easily had he knew pasch's meta. He could have LIED and made up a reason as to why pasch fit his scum meta, why he believed your post, why he voted for him. But he didn't. he admitted what he did and was willing to take heat for that.

His push on you has been town too.

he's looking through all angles. His actions NOW fit his actions from last day phase. He's gleaning info from the lynch and going with it. Mafia have a much more narrow scope because they know the logical information gleaned should lead to them.

PEDIT: As for you,

You are being much too calm right now for town.

I can read you well most of the time but im not the best at reads in general. I didn't think you would have opened with such a heavy mislynch case before as town.

but there is other evidence to support that you did.

[rapidcanyon]

I too can say that I pushed a random lynch just to see if anyone bandwagons. That doesn't work and neither does Pasch's excuse. He couldn't have lied about why Pasch fit his scum meta because he couldn't articluate a convincing enough reason that would make others who know Pasch's meta convinced.

He is not looking through "all angles" so you are blatantly lying. He is just convinced I am scum for no reason.

You claimed in the behinning you can "read me like a book" but now you change that "I am not the best at reads in general" Looks like you are trying to cover yourself in case I flip chosen.

[rapidcanyon]

Okay, on Eidolon's first post, she claims that she a town read on me.

right now rc makes sense as town. His behavior fits of someone who isn't familiar with the style of the site. The game is very different at our site. Particularly with his last response to me, because the RVS stage there is more or less where you vote with wanting a claim, usually from a newb, rather than vote for a reaction.

unvote

I'm wondering why the votes on rgf.

I'd like to ask him why he holded off voting RC until he got called out?

I also have a slight suspicion of Pasch. So for right now

Vote Pasch

Pasch, was your reason on voting whiskers serious or a RV?

She also claim a slight suspicion of Pasch. She then says that she is liking the wagon on Pasch and that he voted for a fabricated scumtell. She says that his response seems "over-justified." Again, vague language.

I'm liking the wagon on pasch. I'd also point out that he popped in to vote on the most obvious (fabricated) scum-tell, meaning it was the easy vote, and then disappeared until i put my vote up for him. his response post seemed over-justified.

I also want to ask om and whiskers of their case on rgf.

Om, in post 51 you sheep greywing's analysis of rgf's post by saying it is a policy lynch. why do you assume that? Could rgf not have been implying that your play was scummy?

My push on him was absolutely justified. Even you admit to this by asking Pasch:

I understand being busy but the easy pop-in vote mixed with the over-justification of why you were mia mixed with the so-called making up for it by offering up a weak reads list seems very shady, imo.

Please show me where RC discredited the deductive process of ms and then inconsistently used that process.

Pasch was twisting my words and you knew it. That is why you were going after Pasch as well.

Essentially I am saying this:
a) I am not used to deductive reasoning, I am new to it.
b) Here is some deductive reasoning.

Pasch twists this to mean:
a) Rapidcanyon disagrees with deductive reasoning
b) Rapidcanyon is using deductive reasoning - he must be scum!

Then Eidlon says:

^the reason why i say mcstab is because he apparently knows pasch's meta really well.

i don't really like whiskers and om saying "if he's town, look at these people" but i can see why they might think that from a town perspective.

I'd be shocked if RC was mafia, even if he flipped town. If he flips chosen, i'd have to think about it.

So, even more buddying right until the moment that Pasch comes out with his case. The she starts pretending to be unsure after which she picks up a little thing and uses that as an excuse to be certain that I am mafia yet won't vote for me until (likely two other people) do.

VOTE: Eidolon

[rapidcanyon]

I'm liking the wagon on pasch. I'd also point out that he popped in to vote on the most obvious (fabricated) scum-tell, meaning it was the easy vote, and then disappeared until i put my vote up for him. his response post seemed over-justified.

I also want to ask om and whiskers of their case on rgf.

Om, in post 51 you sheep greywing's analysis of rgf's post by saying it is a policy lynch. why do you assume that? Could rgf not have been implying that your play was scummy?

I want to hear from Grey and possibly Crypto's replacement. As for RGF, I really don't understand his posts.

[Whiskers]

Fool. I just want you to know, I'm not afraid of you and it will take more than your idle vote to lynch me.

@Eido: in order to avoid reading through this entire game, can you simply tell me: does scumF-16 make wild, go-for-broke pushes on players?

Okay, I'll

Unvote: McStab

for now since I am not completely certain of his guilt.

I'll respond in full tomorrow.

@ Whiskers. I think rc's unvote nswered your question. Yes.

You know what, that just sealed the deal. RC town would be headstrong and frustrated right now. He's caving because he knows he seems scummy. That unvote after whisker's question was too opportune.

I'm not going to vote him yet because I'd rather wait to hear what the less active players have to say.

Uh, no... It doesn't answer my question. My question was, "Does he play to his townmeta (hard pushes, etc) as scum? Because if he does then you saying, "he's like this as town!" over and over again is useless.
His unvote did

not

answer my question, partly because I don't know his alignment here, partly because he

has

been headstrong and frustrated, and partly because

My Question Was To You, Eidolon.

If anything, this is evidence that RC is adjusting and learning-- and since you can't answer my question, instead going to attack him, I'm inclined to think that's the case and you're scum.

Right after whiskers called your go-for-broke pushes scummy.

This is not true. I said that he makes go-for-broke pushes as town. It is scummy, but much like you kept saying, he does it as town, which is what I said. I did not say his pushes were scummy, I said they were indicative, if anything, of him being town.
Then I asked you if his townmeta and scummeta were the same. Since you can't/won't answer it, I'm guessing they aren't, meaning that his go-for-broke push is indicative of his alignment, as is his flailing underpressure a few pages ago-- town.
That doesn't mean I don't like McStab's case-- it just means I think you're scummier, Eido.

[Whiskers]

You don't even provide any reasoning before just blatantly buddying and saying that I am town until you realized that there was a possibility of lynching me and it would happen quicker if you go along with it rather than oppose it. So, you took the littlest thing (an unvote) as an excuse to change your mind.

I responded to McStab's case entirely as well.

Pasch, Om, and I all were a bit suspicious of your "blatant buddying" with rapidcanyon, iirc. I'm aware he's particularly susceptible to it-- when I played with him, he took the position that the players who agreed with him were town and the players who disagreed with him were scum.

you think that everyone who posted so far is scummy?

Considering the theme (chosen mafia), yes. But all 3 of you can't be scum.

Unfortunately, I think this is really going to be our downfall-- scum will lurk and let town rip each other apart. RC is used to much faster games, I am more active than most players, and Eido... idk. If this is town v town v town, then mafia has to do

nothing

for the first few day phases for the win-- maybe throw out a convincingly convenient vote now or then.

On the other hoof, I've personally used, "I'm only the scummiest because nopony else has been arguing/discussing with you!" to take heat off of me as scum.

What is your case on me? That I believed mcstabd too easily. I'll try to reexplain it. Give me a second.

It is fairly obvious. He bandwagoned with a townie and then accused me. If you were town, you would immediately vote him and not me.

This is why I think you don't understand his case, because when you simplify it, it comes down to this. If you understand it, then this is a misrep. A better simplification would be,
"It is fairly obvious. He said I had a weak case but sheeped it because the flip would give him lots of information. He said the nightkill choices benefited me more than anyone." It's more than just, "He sheeped my case on a townie and is now attacking me for making a case."
It's the [content of the case,] [the flips,] and [your play] that make you look scummy.
But I will bet-- just a guess-- you're not scum.
I will also say, McStab, as long as I have known him (one game) doesn't just get up to post a case. The game we were in, we were scum together (2/4 scum), and he only came out to really play after all the other scum were dead.

[rapidcanyon]

McStab's reasoning for using the strategy that he did failed because I am town and Pasch was town. So, his strategy would lead to two town mislynches. While it may have been a valid strategy, it also has the potential to fail to catch any scum which is currently the case.

[Whiskers]

vote: Eidolon

Eidolon's justification was barely a rehashing of a few of the points in your case.

I also have a slight suspicion of Pasch. So for right now Vote Pasch

Pasch, was your reason on voting whiskers serious or a RV?

Anyone else concerned about how buddy buddy Eidolon and Rapidcanyon have been this whole time?

Nearly every post until McStab's case (and even a few after) you tell us how much RC is playing to his town meta.


This may not be enough for a lynch.
I'm pretty confident of one thing, though-- if any of the active players are mafia, you aren't a chosen townie.
In fact, I think through Chosen Townie hunting (hell, why not? It just sounds bad.) we can get a lot: RapidCanyon is not mafia, because he would have made a push on a Chosen townie. He doesn't need to have a case to go completely ape-shit; he could have made a push on a Chosen Townie with practically nothing to go on. He has not shown he is patient enough to wait several days setting up a lynch on a CT when he could just push for it immediately.
Eidolon is not a chosen townie. Nobody has really made a real push for her yet, shown any suspicion-- I think RC and my votes may be the first ones on her all game. She might be a VT or she might be mafia.

[Eidolon]

Whiskers did you not see where i said YES to your question? you are saying i didn't answer it when i did.

You asked if he did that as scum.

I think his unvote there after that question was telling but if you don't perceive it as that than so be it.

I answered your question though.

I'll be able to respond more later after lunch.

[Eidolon]

I guess the reason why I think his unvote there is telling is because he know's he pushes like that as scum so he knew my answer would be yes, hence the need to change his behavior before i responded to you.

[rapidcanyon]

I guess the reason why I think his unvote there is telling is because he know's he pushes like that as scum so he knew my answer would be yes, hence the need to change his behavior before i responded to you.

I thought you said I was stubborn as town. Now you essentially say I am stubborn as scum. So which is it?

[Eidolon]

Heavy/risky pushing doesn't necessarily mean stubborn. You are more stubborn as town, imo. You altered your behavior based on someone's behavioral analysis of you which makes me think scum.

That being said, i still don't effing know. Gut is saying town, head is saying scum.

[rapidcanyon]

Except I didn't alter my behavior based on anyone's analysis of my behavior. I removed the vote because I questioned McStab's guilt.

[Eidolon]

why at that time though? right after whiskers asked that question?

it seems too coincidental.

[rapidcanyon]

It is co-incidental. Had I been responding to whisker's question at that time, I would want to be even more headstrong and pushy to make whiskers think that I always act like that as town.

No, my unvote had nothing to do with whiskers and had to with your reaction to McStab. You overtook McStab in my suspicion list so didn't see a reason to keep my vote on him.

[Eidolon]

Whiskers, my vote on pasch was not a rehash of rc's case. I voted on pasch at first because he made the most easy vote available and then dissapeared.

I then didn't think his responses to rc's case were sufficient.

I've clearly said this.

Also, I have a strong town read on mcstab. His case on RC started convincing me even though I for the most part thought rc was playing to his town meta.

There is no reason to assume that RC would not use the "not going after a chosen" thing to his advantage. he even SET THIS UP in one of his posts before pasch flipped.

This, plus rapidcanyons backpedalling on mcstab make me think scum.

I'm not positive though excpet for the fact that IF someone on the lynch was mafia it's either him or you O.o

[rapidcanyon]

Heavy/risky pushing doesn't necessarily mean stubborn. You are more stubborn as town, imo. You altered your behavior based on someone's behavioral analysis of you which makes me think scum.

That being said, i still don't effing know. Gut is saying town, head is saying scum.

I thought you said you could read me "like a book."

This just seems like a cop out to announcing that you have a scum read on me so when I flip town, you can still say "I wasn't sure but he seemed scummy."

Also, now I get what whiskers is saying about you having several dishonest reasons to say that I am town. When it seemed like I wasn't going to get lynched, you buddied me and said that I was town.

When McStab made a case against me that whiskers agreed with, you said that my unvote "seals the deal" yet you won't say with certainty that you can read me like a book and by your read I am scum. You want me lynched and you want somebody else to push that lynch.

[rapidcanyon]

Yeah, so AGAIN, you say I am playing to my "town meta" but you want me lynched regardless so you can tell everyone that you read me correctly as town but Pasch made a really convincing case.

[rapidcanyon]

Lol, this is hilarious. Eidolon is never going to say that she can "read me like a book" and that I am scum. She is going to keep saying I am playing to my "town meta" while subtly pushing the lynch and allowing McStab to push it harder so the blame falls on him.

[rapidcanyon]

Worth noting, the time she caught me as scum offsite: (no need to read the entire game, just read the first post on this page), she (lickdafoot) has just finished catching up and immediately started going after me. Day 1 - http://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/17604/42/

In Day 2, she continues saying that she can read me well and takes responsibility for the lynch putting herself on the line because as she claims, she can read me well: Again just see her (lickdafoot's) one post here, no need to read the entire game http://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/17640/10/

Day 3, http://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/17655/16/
Again, if you do not want to spend time reading an entire game, Just read her posts since they are the only relevant ones starting on page 16 which I linked to the point where I give up and self hammer on page 23.

In all my experience playing with her, she is straightforward and aggressive as town but equivocal and non-commital to postions as mafia.

Here on the other hand, she continues insisting that I am playing to my "town meta" but that McStab's case should be the basis for which I am lynched.

[Eidolon]

i said you WERE playing to your town meta until the backpedaling part.

You (eventually) said you changed your vote on mcstab because you thought I was more likely scum. Ignoring the recent wifom argument.. why did you think i was scum? Why did you continue to post your case against MCSTAB's argument rather than go after your supposed suspicion of me? What made you suddenly think mcstab was town?

[rapidcanyon]

i said you WERE playing to your town meta until the backpedaling part.

You (eventually) said you changed your vote on mcstab because you thought I was more likely scum. Ignoring the recent wifom argument.. why did you think i was scum? Why did you continue to post your case against MCSTAB's argument rather than go after your supposed suspicion of me? What made you suddenly think mcstab was town?

I initially thought you were scum based on the ease with which you bought a controversial argument and your opportune attack on me right after McStab presented his case.

I continued to post a response to McStab's case because he was accusing me. I was defending myself. Also, because I promised I would. Your question makes no logical sense. Why would I not defend myself agaisnt an accusation just because someone besides my accuser was scummy?

I didn't suddenly think McStab was town. I thought you were scummier. So, I unvoted McStab, defended myself from his accusations, presented a case against you and voted you.

[Eidolon]

the links actually help to show how i got a townmeta read from you (agressive behaviors) before and a slight scumtell later on (backpedaling/wishy-washy behavior.)

Granted, that was 6 months ago, pretty new to playing scum, so much easier to read.

The main reason i thought you were town was because of the push on pasch. But it's POSSIBLE that you did that on purpose given the other evidence (the kill of om, the "not a chosen" set-up, the backpedaling, etc.)

I'd like to here whiskers in regards to my responses to her.

PEDIT: why was your intial reasoning on unvoting mcstab that you didn't want to rely on OMGUS rather than that i was scummier?

Why didn't you vote me until after i questioned you about the unvote? Why not vote me in the same post that you unvoted mcstab?

[rapidcanyon]

the links actually help to show how i got a townmeta read from you (agressive behaviors) before and a slight scumtell later on (backpedaling/wishy-washy behavior.)

It was slight? I remember you saying it "seals the deal" meaning you were already suspicious and that was the final straw.

Granted, that was 6 months ago, pretty new to playing scum, so much easier to read.

You still said you can "read me like a book" when this game started - a fact I never argued against.

The main reason i thought you were town was because of the push on pasch. But it's POSSIBLE that you did that on purpose given the other evidence (the kill of om, the "not a chosen" set-up, the backpedaling, etc.)

The kill on Om only serves to make me look more suspicious not less. Why kill a clear mislynch target instead of just getting him mislynched? Also, it is possible that scum killed him after he said he would lead a lynch on me to make it seem like I am scum.

PEDIT: why was your intial reasoning on unvoting mcstab that you didn't want to rely on OMGUS rather than that i was scummier?

When McStab first voted me, gut reaction was to vote back. I recognized that it is not helpful later on.

I also thought that you were scummier but my thoughts were still inside my head at that time and I hadn't had the time to articulate them.

Why didn't you vote me until after i questioned you about the unvote? Why not vote me in the same post that you unvoted mcstab?

I didn't have a case against you yet - on paper. I was too busy defending myself.