Open 441 - Chosen Mafia (OVER)

[rapidcanyon]

So, Eidolon, you said I was playing to my town meta until I unvoted (and I explained why I did). Even after I unvoted, you still say in 262 that your gut is saying I am town.

Here is what I think of Eidolon's argument:

I think RC is playing to his town meta and my

gut

says he is town. I will never flat out say that I can read him like a book and he is scum. I won't even vote him yet but I'll keep pushing the suspicion while at the same time covering myself. I'll talk about how wonderful McStab's case is. Once McStab gets a couple of inactives to vote for RC, I will unwillingly hammer him all the while saying "My gut says he is town but we are reaching the deadline so I have to vote."

Once RC gets lynched and flips VT/Chosen townie, I will say "my gut told me he was town all along but McStab was so convincing, gah."

[Mortontfrh]

I'm going to be visiting my parents this weekend and considering I just turned 21 last week, there will probably be copious amounts of alcohol and I probably won't be able to get around to this game as much as possible. I'll still get VCs out, don't worry - They just won't be that frequent. Also, i'm going to prod Crypto now since there is a chance I won't be on tonight.

Current Vote Count:

Vote Count 1.07

With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Eidolon (2): Rapidcanyon, Whiskers
Rapidcanyon (1): Mcstab
Whiskers (1): Realgodfather

Not Voting: crypto, Greywing, Eidolon

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-09-06 11:32:00)

[Eidolon]

@ Mod: I will be v/la over the weekend. I might be able to check in here and there as best i can.

I could say that RC's preying on my indecision on him but what good would that do? we're getting into major wifom territory here.

from my perspective, up until a certain point i was pretty convinced that rc was playing to his town meta. but evidence based off a strong townread's case leaves me thinking it is possible plus a few slip ups from rc.

I think that RC is the most likely option as of right now, but we can't be certain until we hear more from other players. I don't want to continue arguing with RC as I want to get a better overall picture before I make up my mind on him. And i'm not holding whiskers out as an option either.

[realgodfather]

Guys... I think rapid is Town.

[Eidolon]

Guys... I think rapid is Town.

why?

[Eidolon]

^ and why do you think whiskers is mafia?

[rapidcanyon]

@ Eidolon, I explained why I unvoted. Why are you still saying that it is a slip up? You are not answering any of my arguments but continue to rehash already refuted arguments.

[rapidcanyon]

Eidolon, it seems you are either scum who won't listen to me no matter what or you are town who made up your mind. I explained to you why I unvoted on McStab. I also explained my motivation for lynching Pasch. I responded to everything McStab said about me. I agree that McStab's motivation for his stunt might have been motivated by townish reasons. Perhaps he thought he could get a better read and catch scum based on that. However, his read on me is wrong as I explained in a three-part series. He says I was acting shifty in my initial posts to which I explained that I am used to claiming and I was asking questions. I can't explain Om's death except to speculate that I may have been framed.

You have yet to make a concrete case on me. You keep saying that I need to be lynched yet you neither vote for me nor accuse me directly of being scum. You said you got a town meta on me until I unvoted on McStab. However, even after unvoting, you still say that your gut read on me is town. You continue saying that you get a town read on me at every opportunity while also pushing for my lynch. If you succeed, I guess well done for proving that you are much better player than me.

If you are going to hammer, at least say directly that you think I am scum. You act as if you are completely unsure about my affiliation yet you are certain that I need to be lynched. You also claimed that you can read me like a book at the beginning of the game. So, why won't you directly say that I am scum? I at least want you to take responsibility for pushing my lynch since you know me well.

I am not "preying" on your indecisiveness. I just can't shake the feeling of WHY you won't directly say that you get a scum read on me. You say that I must be lynched because I unvoted McStab. You also say that up until that point, you had a townread on me. But what now? You still said after I unvoted that your gut said I was town. Why then do you want me lynched? I don't understand that.

I just want you to say that you get a scum read on me but you won't, no matter how many times I ask. If you make against me, I would gladly respond.

I guess it is upto Grey to make a decision. I have a vote on me from McStab, and Eidolon is pretty certain to hammer. Eidolon has two votes on her from myself and whiskers. Whiskers has a vote on him from RGF. RGF, are you even reading the game?

And of course Crypto has been missing completely.

[Greywing]

What's funny is that I like both wagons right now. I'm getting strong Town reads on both McStab and Whiskers, and also newb-Town vibes from RGF. Rapid and Eid are my two biggest suspects.

McStab made a great case on Rapid which is completely logical to me. Rapid's response? "McStab's obvious scum!!!!" That sounds an awful lot like someone who is unable to refute the points against him, and is instead resorting to trying to discredit the person leading his lynch. That doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in RapidTown. His arguments have been misreps of other players, and he's been flailing badly.

Eid is causing me concern because of his interaction with Rapid. He seemed to be subtly buddying Rapid at the beginning, and is now reading like bussing after the case from McStab. If Rapid flips scum, I want Eid lynched with fire. If Rapid flips Town, I need to rethink Eid's alignment.

Crypto could quite possibly be scum as well. Of course, he's a bit hard to read with his 0 posts >_>.

Anyways, Rapid needs to die.

VOTE: rapidcanyon

[rapidcanyon]

Grey, what if Eidolon is mafia and mislynching me?

Did you read my 3 part response to McStab's argument?

[rapidcanyon]

Eidolon, can you also explain what about McStab's case convinced you? The vast majority of the content of his case was based on my push of Pasch's lynch so it applies to you as well. By claiming McStab's case, you are by extension claiming that I am scummy for pushing Pasch's lynch, something that you did as well. I didn't find you suspicious for pushing Pasch's lynch because I too had the same suspicions. I only ask that you tell me in a concrete way why you want me lynched.

I have a very hard time understanding your motivation for this if town. Let's start with post 140. You don't accuse me but you tell grey that Om called an RGF/RC scumteam based on his gut and you want him to keep that in mind. Post 141, you say you don't buy McStab's case on me. You then point out that I didn't find people on Pasch's wagon suspicious if he flips VT. You never mentioned this before McStab's case.

Post 177, you say you are not sold on me being scum.

I unvote McStab and respond to his case. You ignore my response yet you continue saying that my lynch should occur because of his case. Why would you only reference the case while not explaining why the responses weren't considered? Since you want me lynched based off of his case, I'd expect you at least consider the responses.

McStab's response was:

You're scum gg no re

nothing else for tonight

And your response is that I must the best target for a lynch based on his reasoning which I addressed and neither you nor McStab bothered refuting.

Pedit: we not lynch Eidolon now Grey?

[rapidcanyon]

Grey, I find your argument difficult to understand? What if I flip VT or chosen townie? Will you go after Eidolon next? You say you will only go after her if I am scum but the fact is I am TOWN and I suspect her of being scum.

Please explain.

[rapidcanyon]

I'd like to hear Whiskers's response to this. At this moment, he is actually my strongest town read through mere process of elimination. Grey, I would be less suspicious that you weren't Eidolon's scumbuddy if you had said that when I flip town, you would go after Eidolon. Instead you bunch the two of us together and say that we are of the same alignment. So, if she is lynched and flips scum, you go after me and if I am lynched and flip town, you don't directly go after her.

Whiskers is the only person who can save the day at this point. Let's see what happens.

[rapidcanyon]

What's funny is that I like both wagons right now. I'm getting strong Town reads on both McStab and Whiskers, and also newb-Town vibes from RGF. Rapid and Eid are my two biggest suspects.

McStab made a great case on Rapid which is completely logical to me. Rapid's response? "McStab's obvious scum!!!!" That sounds an awful lot like someone who is unable to refute the points against him, and is instead resorting to trying to discredit the person leading his lynch. That doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in RapidTown. His arguments have been misreps of other players, and he's been flailing badly.

Initially, yes, I was pissed off that people were buying his argument despite the fact that he too was on Pasch wagon. Once I got some time to think about it and gave a 3 part response, McStab's response is ... nothing.

Eid is causing me concern because of his interaction with Rapid. He seemed to be subtly buddying Rapid at the beginning, and is now reading like bussing after the case from McStab. If Rapid flips scum, I want Eid lynched with fire. If Rapid flips Town, I need to rethink Eid's alignment.

Crypto could quite possibly be scum as well. Of course, he's a bit hard to read with his 0 posts >_>.

Anyways, Rapid needs to die.

VOTE: rapidcanyon

I don't get why you don't want Eidolon lynched "with fire" when I flip town. You are a lot more logical than this grey.

[rapidcanyon]

W/e, congrats Eidolon for completely breaking my spirit in this game. I guess if you can secure one more vote, you can hammer me for a mislynch.

[rapidcanyon]

But hopefully whiskers saw through your's and grey's crap and RGF won't just vote me.

[Greywing]

Grey, I find your argument difficult to understand? What if I flip VT or chosen townie? Will you go after Eidolon next? You say you will only go after her if I am scum but the fact is I am TOWN and I suspect her of being scum.

Please explain.

If you end up flipping Chosen, then I'll look at Eid, and I'd probably need to look at McStab as well. As the leader of your wagon, he'd naturally fall under suspicion. I find it unlikely that I'll see anything other then a scum flip however.

W/e, congrats Eidolon for completely breaking my spirit in this game. I guess if you can secure one more vote, you can hammer me for a mislynch.

Continue with the AtE please. You're only making me feel more confident that I'm voting the right person.

[rapidcanyon]

This is what I don't understand. You'll "look" at her. So, she doesn't seem suspicious to you at all not even if I flip chosen? She constantly keeps saying that she gets a town read on me and yet wants me lynched. She won't even say that she has a "read me like a book scumtell on me" no matter how many times I ask. I find her far more suspicious than McStab at the moment.

And I find you more suspicious than McStab as well, Grey. If I flip chosen, I'd rather you and Eidolon be lynched than McStab.

What's AtE?

I am still hoping whiskers saves the day.

[Greywing]

This is what I don't understand. You'll "look" at her. So, she doesn't seem suspicious to you at all not even if I flip chosen? She constantly keeps saying that she gets a town read on me and yet wants me lynched. She won't even say that she has a "read me like a book scumtell on me" no matter how many times I ask. I find her far more suspicious than McStab at the moment.

And I find you more suspicious than McStab as well, Grey. If I flip chosen, I'd rather you and Eidolon be lynched than McStab.

What's AtE?

I am still hoping whiskers saves the day.

What's funny is that I like both wagons right now. I'm getting strong Town reads on both McStab and Whiskers, and also newb-Town vibes from RGF.

Rapid and Eid are my two biggest suspects.

You're right. I clearly am not suspicious of Eid at all. And yes, I will "look" at Eid. I'm not going to autolynch people without thought. That's how to lose the game.

Also, I'm now your main suspect because I voted you and am not willing to lynch people without thinking first. You're right, you caught me.

AtE: Appeal to Emotion. It's a trick where scum try to save themselves by making other players pity them. You've been doing it constantly.

[rapidcanyon]

Grey, I can't tell you anything if you just say "McStab's case" and vote for me. Put it down in writing why you want me lynched and I'll respond. I already refuted McStab's case and he just disappeared. So, there is nothing more of McStab's case at least until he logs back on. Are you just ignoring everything I typed in response as well my case for lynching Eidolon and my full page argument with her? If so, I ask that you don't because there is a lot that you can glean from that.

I'll copy paste my response if you want but you can simply go to post 224, post 229, and post 231. That is my response to McStab's case.

Also, whiskers, I hope that answers your question as to exactly what McStab is accusing me of.

1) He claimed that he bandwagoned so he could get some reads.

2) Then he got a scum-read on me.

3) I then responded to his case and explained why I am not scum.

It is pretty annoying that McStab won't come back and unvote or explain further and a likely town vote is stuck on me. But Eidolon still needs another town vote before she can hammer me so I am still not giving up. My top suspects at this moment are Eidolon and Grey. Grey because no matter how much I insist that Eidolon be looked into when I flip town, he says he will only look into her if I am scum which I am not.

RGF, what are your reads?

Whiskers, yours?

Also, Crypto will likely be replaced so we will have another new player.

Also, somewhat annoyed that people voted for me and disappeared without giving any sort of substantial response. Grey has only considered my initial frustration with McStab and not my later detailed response. Why is this Grey?

Pedit, yeah, I am just genuinely frustrated that no one considers that Eidolon is pushing my lynch by claiming a townread and is getting away with it.

[Greywing]

Grey, I can't tell you anything if you just say "McStab's case" and vote for me. Put it down in writing why you want me lynched and I'll respond. I already refuted McStab's case and he just disappeared. So, there is nothing more of McStab's case at least until he logs back on. Are you just ignoring everything I typed in response as well my case for lynching Eidolon and my full page argument with her? If so, I ask that you don't because there is a lot that you can glean from that.

I've read over everything. I've disregarded it because you didn't sufficiently answer any of the points he brought up against you. As I've already stated, you misrepped what he said, or played the AtE card. Same with your Eid case.

It is pretty annoying that McStab won't come back and unvote or explain further and a likely town vote is stuck on me. But Eidolon still needs another town vote before she can hammer me so I am still not giving up. My top suspects at this moment are Eidolon and Grey.

Grey because no matter how much I insist that Eidolon be looked into when I flip town, he says he will only look into her if I am scum which I am not.

Again with the misrep. Quote where I said this.

Also, somewhat annoyed that people voted for me and disappeared without giving any sort of substantial response. Grey has only considered my initial frustration with McStab and not my later detailed response. Why is this Grey?

Answered above.

[rapidcanyon]

I didn't misrep anything that McStab said. Care to articulate a single one? I didn't use AtE against McStab at all. You said you will go after Eidolon with fire if I flipped scum but not if I flipped town. Also, I made at least 20-30 logical posts against Eidolon and one single AtE which I genuinely felt. You are blowing it out of proportion and not addressing my 20-30 logical posts.

I think Eidolon and Grey are the scumteam.

[rapidcanyon]

Yeah, I suspected other people like Whiskers and McStab but regardless of what McStab thinks, my primary suspicions are Eido and Grey. If they succeed in mislynching me and kill the only logical player (whiskers), they will almost certainly win. McStab will probably be their next target and getting Crypto and RealGF to vote shouldn't be too hard considering they aren't following the game.

I am still waiting for whiskers analysis, and for Crypto's replacement. RealGF hopefully is smart enough to not bandwagon. We may still lynch scum today in Eidolon. If we lynch her and she flips scum, I am going after Grey next.

[Greywing]

I didn't misrep anything that McStab said. Care to articulate a single one?

I'll actually point out several:

Argument 2, you say Pasch is misconstued as scum. So, are you telling me you voted on someone you felt was being misconstrued as scum?

Actually, he stated that you misconstrued his argument to make him look like scum. McStab believed he was scum, but thought your argument here was crap.

McStab is obviously scum. He bandwagons and then accuses the person who made the case.

He voted primarily for information (which is a very common practice on this site for D1,) and accused you for attempting to push a weak case. Not what you're insinuating here.

Your strategy of lynching a player, seeing their flip and then lynching the player that provided a case seems to me a setup for a double mislynch. Everyone who votes on a player's lynch is responsible for that lynch.

You not giving reasons for your vote makes it more likely that you are the scum as opposed to less likely.

He wrote an entire post which detailed why he voted Pasch.

The fact that you bandwagoned as scum on my case and are now voting for me based on a case you agreed with proves that you are scum.

I think I've made my point. Moving on:

You said you will go after Eidolon with fire if I flipped scum but not if I flipped town.

Once again, quote where I said this. Don't paraphrase it,

quote it.

[Whiskers]

Grey, I find your argument difficult to understand? What if I flip VT or chosen townie? Will you go after Eidolon next? You say you will only go after her if I am scum but the fact is I am TOWN and I suspect her of being scum.

Please explain.

If you end up flipping Chosen, then I'll look at Eid, and I'd probably need to look at McStab as well. As the leader of your wagon, he'd naturally fall under suspicion. I find it unlikely that I'll see anything other then a scum flip however.

W/e, congrats Eidolon for completely breaking my spirit in this game. I guess if you can secure one more vote, you can hammer me for a mislynch.

Continue with the AtE please. You're only making me feel more confident that I'm voting the right person.

Greywing, you know FULL well that rapidcanyon does this as town.
Now: You can tell me one of two things: you think he's aware of his townmeta and playing to it, or you think that he plays the same way as town and as scum.

I think it is important that players UNVOTE. This is another needlessly fast wagon, we have one player completely out of the game (Crypto), and I DO NOT WANT ANOTHER LYNCH before we get a chance to look at some of the less-active players.

---

If Rapid flips scum, I want Eid lynched with fire. If Rapid flips Town, I need to rethink Eid's alignment.

Greywing

, I agree with RC here: it looks like you'll only attack Eid if Rapid flips scum. If Rapid flips town, you'll "rethink Eid's alignment"? Since you're saying you have a scumread on her, does that mean that if Rapid flips town, you'll... consider Eid might be town?

More likely then them being scum together, I think Eid could be scum buddying with [the townie who gets townreads on people who buddy him], while fencesitting so she can push a lynch on a player who is naturally scummy (and so really easy to lynch). I think RC's depiction of EidoScum using his townflip to try to get towncred is not improbable.

RapidCanyon

, you once asked if MafiaScum.net players bus their scumbuddies. Now I'm asking you: is bussing prevalent on Debate.org?
Next:

...the only logical player (whiskers)...

Just so you know, RC, this is AtE, "Appeal to Emotion."

Eidolon

: the above question is for RapidCanyon, please don't answer it for him.