Open 441 - Chosen Mafia (OVER)

[rapidcanyon]

One thing, I'd like to know McStab is how you are certain of Eidolon being town.

[rapidcanyon]

Also, whiskers, I admit I made mistakes in calling people obvious scum but my read on Eidolon and Greywing was a well reasoned decision arrived through the course of multiple pages of interaction. It doesn't feel nice to be discredited just because so far, I sucked at finding scum but the reasoning for an Eido-grey scumteam, even you have to admit is neither far fetched nor a misrep. You seem to agree with me as well.

Anyways, based on McStab's and Whisker's post, here is what I feel, there is too much WIFOM involved in picking out who is likely chosen townies. Perhaps scum went after VTs to make it seem like they are chosen. Whiskers even said that if he were scum, that is what he would do. So, why lynch VT's over people who are likely scum? I strongly feel that we should lynch the scummiest players in the game.

[rapidcanyon]

Okay, I typed up this long post in the morning. Things changed since then but I want to respond to why I was suspcious of Eidolon. She denied pushing my lynch saying "where did I ever do this so I am pulling these quotes up as proof. Most of them implicitly place suspicion on me while the last one calls me "the

WHEN DID I EVER push hard to lynch you? you are making that up. I said most of the time that i was either leaning town or undecided. I made one post about "this has sealed the deal" but that post was scummy. You are twisting it against me to make it seem like i am out to get you. if i was out to get you i never would have kept mentioning your townmeta. wtf?

Yes, you did say most of the time that you were leaning town or undecided. I am glad we agree. You also pushed for my lynch the hardest. Those two weren't mutually exclusive (although they should be). You should push lynches on people you think are scum, not on people who you think are "leaning town" or undecided.

As for why you kept mentioning my town-meta, it is because we are not at MYLO. you would be under pressure if you had said I acted with my scum-meta and I flipped town. Especially because you started Day 1 by saying you could "read me like a book," a fact I accept. Mentioning my town meta and allowing me to be lynched gives you town cred and makes it easier on you the next day.

I explained that I unvoted McStab because I didn't want to OMGUS and because I questioned McStab's guilt based on your behavior. I defended myself against McStab's case and then turned to you who were my bigggest scumread. You ignored my explanation and continued saying that I should be lynched.

Oh, and since you deny that you were trying to lynch me, let me pull up the quotes:

You are being much too calm right now for town. I can read you well most of the time but im not the best at reads in general. I didn't think you would have opened with such a heavy mislynch case before as town. but there is other evidence to support that you did.

So, here in the post where you accuse me, you also try to discredit your own reads. You say you can read me like a book. But you don't accuse me based on such a reads. You say you are "not the best at reads in general." So, that's your exit strategy and it contradicts the fact that you can read me well.

I think his unvote there after that question was telling but if you don't perceive it as that than so be it.

Here, you won't directly tell whiskers "I can read RC very well. He is scum." You ask whiskers to consider the unvote and say that it was "telling." Yet you continue saying that I am playing to my town meta.

Heavy/risky pushing doesn't necessarily mean stubborn. You are more stubborn as town, imo. You altered your behavior based on someone's behavioral analysis of you which makes me think scum.

That being said, i still don't effing know. Gut is saying town, head is saying scum.

Here too, you push the fact that I unvoted yet you still hold back and say that your "gut" is saying that I am town.

Also, I have a strong town read on mcstab. His case on RC started convincing me even though I for the most part thought

rc was playing to his town meta.

There is no reason to assume that RC would not use the "not going after a chosen" thing to his advantage. he even SET THIS UP in one of his posts before pasch flipped.

This, plus rapidcanyons backpedalling on mcstab make me

think scum

.

I'm

not positive

though excpet for the fact that IF someone on the lynch was mafia it's either him or you O.o

In this post, you again say that I could be scum but follow it up with your uncertainty. I was waiting for you to directly accuse me yet every accusation comes with you being "uncertain" about me.

Finally the post where you said that I should be lynched:

@ Mod: I will be v/la over the weekend. I might be able to check in here and there as best i can.

I could say that RC's preying on my indecision on him but what good would that do? we're getting into major wifom territory here.
from my perspective, up until a certain point i was pretty convinced that rc was playing to his town meta. but evidence based off a strong townread's case leaves me thinking it is possible plus a few slip ups from rc.

I think that RC is the most likely option as of right now

, but we can't be certain until we hear more from other players. I don't want to continue arguing with RC as I want to get a better overall picture before I make up my mind on him. And i'm not holding whiskers out as an option either.

So, yes you were trying to put suspicion on me for many posts concluding with the post where you said I was the most likely option.

You never honestly look me in the face (figuratively) and say that you think I am scum. It is always a "townread" yet I am your best option for a lynch. If you have a "townread" on me, there is no reason for you to lynch me. Also, I felt you used me to get the mislynch on Pasch and make me look suspicious and then you tried to push a lynch on me.

[rapidcanyon]

RC, could you explain why you say "whiskers is either brilliant scum or town"

He understands stuff that is sometimes difficult to articulate and has never once misrepresented anything anyone said. I didn't see the usual scum tactic of interpreting something differently than it should be. Even if a case is not articulated well, he sums it up perfectly.

So, yes, if he is scum, he is really, really good. But I am leaning town and not because he said I am town. He didn't hesitate to call me out when I didn't initially understand mafiascum's tactic of "information lynches" immediately and accused McStab. He made sure I understood where McStab was coming from. Nothing I said so far was misrepresented by him or twisted to his advantage.

[rapidcanyon]

I might just be having an omgus reaction.

but i find his willingness to lynch me and HIMSELF over grey to be an attempt at covering.

I think his strategy was to endgame the scum with chosen townies. I disagree with it though. It is too risky. Scum could make VT's look like chosen and chosen look like VT's based on who they choose to attack.

especially if you look at grey's iso and see how scummy it is.

Hey Rc, remember in that one game where (beginners) i KNEW you were scum because you said "it's either lickdafoot or me, lynch lickdafoot" and i told you there was NO reason to tie us together in that situation unless you were scum? Isn't that reminiscent of what whiskers is doing here "lynch eido, then lynch me, don't lynch obvious scum"

she's even covering herself by saying im a vt not chosen, so it's okay if i'm lynched.

I agree with whisker's accusation of you as scum. I think you are using me whenever you can and pushing my lynch when it suits your interests all the while saying that you think I am town to make me feel more confortable with you.

I am sorry LDF. Considering how hard you pushed on me while maintaining your "town" read on me, I find it difficult to trust you. You deny that you pushed for my lynch yet I showed you a quote where you clearly said I was the best option. I don't believe that had you had the chance to hammer me, you wouldn't have done it.

Would

you have hammered me?

@ Whiskers, why do you believe that if Grey is scum, an inactive has to be his scumbuddy? It could just as well be Eido herself, right?

[rapidcanyon]

We can WAIT for Crypto's replacement. We don't have to go about lynching inactives. While we wait I pretty much just have two questions I already asked but I'll put them in a nice post for easy reference:

1) Whiskers, you yourself said that scum could mislead our beliefs on who the chosen townies are. So, why then is trying to endgame them with chosen townies a good strategy? We might fail, won't we?

2) McStab, what about Eidolon makes you believe she is town?

3) Whiskers, why do you believe that an inactive is Grey's scumbuddy? Is it based on the "chosen townie" analysis? I really don't want to try lynching anyone I think is town. They may as well be chosen and scum could be using the strategy you said they would use - go after VT's.

So, I'll wait to hear thoughts from everyone. Since people seemed to agree that Grey is scummy, I think he is our most practical option for a lynch today. But first, we MUST hear from Crypto's replacement. As for hearing from RGF, I don't know what he is going to say. I doubt he will give any analysis and I question if he even reads ours.

I have a townread on him. As whiskers said, just because he didn't commit a scumtell I was on the lookout for doesn't mean he isn't scum but it does give him townpoints in my book.

So, that's all I have for now.

[Whiskers]

I was actually worried about getting to LYLO with McStab as town since he would allow scum to hammer.

You said something like this in another game and it kind of makes me wonder:
On Debate.org, do votes from previous DPs apply in LyLo?

If TownRapid, TownStab, and ScumX all go to LyLo, McStab isn't going to "allow scum to hammer" from voting for you now. He would have to put a

NEW

vote on you

in

LYLO.

[rapidcanyon]

I was actually worried about getting to LYLO with McStab as town since he would allow scum to hammer.

You said something like this in another game and it kind of makes me wonder:
On Debate.org, do votes from previous DPs apply in LyLo?

If TownRapid, TownStab, and ScumX all go to LyLo, McStab isn't going to "allow scum to hammer" from voting for you now. He would have to put a

NEW

vote on you

in

LYLO.

No, votes don't carry over. What I meant was:

If TownRapid, TownStab and ScumX go to LYLO especially if scum X is ScumEido, McStab would have likely suspected me and voted me allowing scumEido to hammer.

Voting without thinking is unfortunately common at DDO and has led to several extended quickhammers from scum over many games. So, it is something I always watch out for.

[McStab]

Long story short, because I don't want to post a wall, his posting has shown legitimate thought processes of trying to figure things out. What confirmed it for me was when he didn't understand or buy into my "information lynch", and then before I posted anything more he understood it. Scum are unlikely to fake such a thought process or be concerned about figuring it out. Things like that may be small, but it's the small stuff that scum have trouble faking (how do you fake a legitimate thought process?)

[rapidcanyon]

Long story short, because I don't want to post a wall, his posting has shown legitimate thought processes of trying to figure things out. What confirmed it for me was when he didn't understand or buy into my "information lynch", and then before I posted anything more he understood it. Scum are unlikely to fake such a thought process or be concerned about figuring it out. Things like that may be small, but it's the small stuff that scum have trouble faking (how do you fake a legitimate thought process?)

Eidolon is highly skilled as scum. Such a thought process is precisely the sort of thing I expect her to be capable at faking. That and if Grey flips scum, his reaction of distancing himself from her by accusing her while voting for the other option (me) fits.

[rapidcanyon]

You've piqued my curiosity though. I would appreciate a more detailed explanation when you have more time.

[McStab]

When I get some more time, I'll writeup a more detailed explanation if you insist.

That being said, I would like some more votes on Greywing. I suspect added pressure will make him talk more.

[Whiskers]

Long story short, because I don't want to post a wall, his posting has shown legitimate thought processes of trying to figure things out. What confirmed it for me was when he didn't understand or buy into my "information lynch", and then before I posted anything more he understood it. Scum are unlikely to fake such a thought process or be concerned about figuring it out. Things like that may be small, but it's the small stuff that scum have trouble faking (how do you fake a legitimate thought process?)

Maybe that's why I am so good at scum: I'm stupid and don't understand things.

Eidolon is highly skilled as scum.

FWOOP!

This one quote is all I need. If Eidolon is highly skilled as scum, then she is not scum here.

[Whiskers]

This was supposed to be at the top, so
edit by way of pony:
I can't comfortably lynch Greywing until lurkerbitch RGF and flaker Crypto have been dealt with, in or out of game.

[rapidcanyon]

@ McStab, sure. I'll wait for it.

@ Whiskers, LOL. You are highly skilled as town which is why I think you caught on to her. I caught on because I was paying special attention to her due to her push on me. I don't know if your post was joking or serious.

To be honest, I am kind of too impatient to wait on the inactives but I'll restrain myself and wait.

So, are you suggesting we policy-lynch RGF?

[rapidcanyon]

Coz he's not likely going to post anything other than random one-liners and votes.

[Whiskers]

I'd like either: a replace (or a massive spike in activity) for Crypto, or a policy lynch (or a massive spike in activity) for realgodfather.

I'd actually like them both to be replaced: I'm going to go ahead and call it here: realgodfather is a newbie and will flake out because he has no idea what he's doing. ((I almost said "he is a newbie and he's a bored" but someponies consider that to be a massive towntell. If he's bored it's his own fault for not playing the game.))

[McStab]

@Whiskers: Well, do you think he's bored? Because if you do, I don't see why you feel the need to hide it; argue instead why you don't feel it's a towntell.

[rapidcanyon]

Just curious how Eidolon is suddenly not an option anymore. I guess whiskers and I were the only ones suspicious of her and whiskers wants the inactives to be either replaced or lynched.

I still believe it is an Eido-grey team. I haven't heard any convincing evidence to the contrary enough to change my mind. I think inactives are town based on POE but then again, I would have to agree that we can't just ignore them.

I am down for lynching Eido or grey but grey obviously seems the more practical option considering Eido is bussing him and McStab wants him lynched as well.

[rapidcanyon]

BEFORE McStab posts but After I call the two of them as scum, she immediately drops suspicion on me and starts hypothesizing about who could be scum with Grey. Seems to me like she is ready to bus and wants to implicate someone else.

RC, could you explain why you say "whiskers is either brilliant scum or town"

I mean, i get you were poking fun at my comment on mcstab, but what is your reasoning.

mcstab, thoughts on whiskers?

What about grey's blatant zoning in on rgf both day periods? (see posts 9, 11, 50, and 132) do you think a grey/rgf team is possible?

Whiskers, why did you say i can't be chosen when at the time, only 4 of us had been posting?

Eidolon, please explain this. If Grey is zoning in on RGF, why would you think they are a scumteam?

It gets even better here:

I don't see how being considering someone's lynch is buddying.

Anyway, grey hasn't garnered any suspicion or votes up until recently. he's either a vt or scum too. why me over him?

And you never answered my question. what SOLID information do you have on me being scum? The only thing is that i changed my mind on rc which IS NOT A SCUM TELL unless you have other evidence to back it up.

i think it's a grey/whiskers scumteam.

Even whiskers case on grey was followed up with "maybe i'm nitpicking" yet she won't consider that about me.

Now it is a grey/whiskers scumteam is it?

[Eidolon]

Sigh. i don't really feel like going into a long defense of myself right now but i'll say a few things. RC, how many times have we argued page after page after page in a game only to find out that we were both town? Thing is, when things start getting heated, you start plucking my nerves, and i start seeing scum in everything you say. I can't help it. You play scummy as town. You refuse to believe that anything you do can be perceived as scummy and thus start thinking i am scum for attacking you.

I honestly can't remember one single time where i tried to argue with you as scum.

You are pointing out things that aren't a scum tell. Like how i changed my mind from a grey/rgf scumteam to a whiskers/rgf scumteam. What is so scummy about changing my mind when i see something that someone did and think it is scummy?

But it's pointless if you keep going on about it because picking apart my posts and adding scum motive behind them doesn't mean that i'm scum. If you think i'm on a scumteam with grey, okay. Lynch grey. try getting me lynched tomorrow.

Whiskers, what i meant about lynching grey over one of us is that there is no reason to think he is less likely to be chosen than you or me. So why try to lynch me AND THEN YOUR OWN SELF when grey has been more visibly scummy? It just doesn't make sense to me. It makes me think that i am chosen and you are just trying to lynch me. I get that would be obvious so i'm not certain that is your motive but i honestly see no other reason on why you would say that. I can provide a case on him later if you don't think he's scummy.

I'd like to point out that whiskers NEVER gave me his actual case on me with solid evidence that i asked him about multiple times. He apparently doesn't think i'm scummy now, but since he never provided me with the case that i asked him for, it's probable that he never actually did think that.

[rapidcanyon]

Gimme a minute...

[Eidolon]

^eh, you actually did reaspond to that whiskers, but your whole post was about the rc thing. It's bullshit. I'm no psychic. I can't read every person with 100% accuracy and using that as a scum-tell is BULLL SHIIIITTTTT. Scum have all the more reason to be confident and one-tracked in their reads.

I pointed out what he did that seemed scummy and when I CAME BACK AFTER A BREAK i admitted that I'M BACK TO A TOWN READ ON HIM like i was BEFORE THE FIASCO WITH HIM STARTED.

What the fuck is so scummy about arguing with someone when i think they do something to deviate from their normal play?

HE EVEN ADMITTED THAT HE WAS DOING SOMETHING DIFFERENT SO IT IS REASONABLE TO SEE WHY I PERCEIVED THAT AS SCUMMY WHEN HE WAS BEING PRESSURED.

UP UNTIL THEN I WAS STILL SAYING HE WA SPLAYING TO HIS TOWN META.

get off my

dick

cvnt.

Phew O.o okay. Arguing with RC gets me worked up sometimes ^^;;

[Whiskers]

Whiskers, what i meant about lynching grey over one of us is that there is no reason to think he is less likely to be chosen than you or me. So why try to lynch me AND THEN YOUR OWN SELF when grey has been more visibly scummy? It just doesn't make sense to me. It makes me think that i am chosen and you are just trying to lynch me. I get that would be obvious so i'm not certain that is your motive but i honestly see no other reason on why you would say that. I can provide a case on him later if you don't think he's scummy.

I'm not saying Greywing isn't scummy. I'm saying that it might be better play to lynch VTs, since mafia wants CTs dead, and mafia will be trying to hide in with the VTs while attacking CTs.

Mafia will try to hide as VTs while attacking CTs.
CTs will think they are VTs and will look like VTs except for Mafia attack them.
VTs who aren't CTs are either VTs (lynchable without consequence as long as both CTs are alive) or Mafia (who we want to lynch in the first place.

I'd like to point out that whiskers NEVER gave me his actual case on me with solid evidence that i asked him about multiple times. He apparently doesn't think i'm scummy now, but since he never provided me with the case that i asked him for, it's probable that he never actually did think that.

I do think you are scummy, but I can't get a read with any meaning on you, on McStab, on Greywing, until the other playerslots are active and contributing. Let me put it this way: if the only players in the game were McStab, Greywing, rapidcanyon, you (Eidolon), and myself, I would say that you (Eidolon) and Greywing are probably scum.
However, we've pulled two pebbles out of the bag without looking at them. I don't know if the two black pebbles are in the bag with the white pebbles, or if the bag has only white pebbles and the black ones are in my hand.
I can pair players up by interaction and associative tells, but there are some players

who have literally no interaction

so I can not get a read on them. Until there are players in the slots of shitfaceRGF and flakerCrypto, or until a scumflip, I will not be able to make interaction-based reads with any confidence or conviction.

Now: I gave a case with solid points. I do not have actual evidence that X was your motive, or action Y was performed by you, but there is no way for me to have that in

any

mafia game. However, would you say of the RC case, "You were the only player with the motive to kill Om," is not a solid point? I built a case because your behaviour was and is scummy.
Is there something specific you want to ask me?

[Whiskers]

Firstly: I'm not on your

dick

cunt. You should know, too, that that's the wrong turn of phrase for what you're trying to convey.
Secondly: I don't know what you're even yelling about. Because of this, I am taking the post singly, in isolation, to point out that
Thirdly:
-a] Scum players could have a widely varying playstyle. You fencesitting and acting like you don't know whether to call RC scum (based on his play) or town (based on his meta) is scummy.
-b] If you truly believe what you said-- that scum has more reason than town to be certain in their reads, then your second paragraph where you insist that you only waivered for a moment then went back to a townread on RC, is scummy by your own rules.
-c] If you truly believe what you said-- that scum has more reason than town to be certain in their reads, then you are aware of what is (what you find to be) scummy and, as scum, can intentionally play against it.
Fourthly: You are not arguing with RC, you are arguing with me. Please learn the difference, it could save your life.

Other notes:
-You may not be able to read everypony with 100%accuracy, but you came into the game saying "I can read rapidcanyon like a book." That is only one player (not all of them), and describes near-perfect accuracy.
-I don't recall you arguing with him for a deviation in his play, I remember you talking with McStab and going, "Yeah. Yeah, that looks good," on both rapidcanyon

AND

Greywing. You look like you're trying to please McStab.