Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[pirate mollie]

lol. so what do you think of smash's scum list hiraki?

I don't really care?

hiraki resorts to emotional manipulation. would like feedback if this is typical of him regardless of alignment.

Yeah because my emotional appeal is so great

hey guys

my dog died

now kill theomoaner

because i'm sad

see, that'll work because i'm sad

and others are sad for me

and therefore i'll get my way because i'm a deeper emotional hole

Yeah, AtE is rarely found to be true. No one falls for emotional tricks unless they're just bad at the game. They fall for logical fallacies.

I said emotional manipulation not appeals to emotion there is a difference or do you not get that. one way is to repeatedly tell someone their game is shit without ever bothering to inform them as to why exactly you think so or correct their line of reasoning oh gee who does that sound like. these people want other people to stay stupid so that they can remain unreadable. those are the shittiest games to play IMO.

also I am a chick so when you refer to me as a he I keep thinking you are talking about someone else

@slandaar do you guys triangulate on here?

[Telo]

do you guys triangulate on here?

What does that entail?

[Eleison]

I'm really having trouble getting any reads on quite a few of the players here. However, after doing a few Isos in a feeble attempt to be able to do anything at all, here's what I've got.

Spoiler: Town (Strongest to weakest)

Hikari
evilpacman18
Slandaar
McStab
Smashbard
Telo
Thurhame
Jun

Spoiler: Scum (Strongest to weakest)

NJAC
Eleison
pirate mollie
Jun
Theomoaner

Spoiler: Needs more activity

Dividizzle
Shinori
PMysterious

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand, she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in Uuorder to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I genuinely like this quality of post, and find it to be accurate and holding a fair stance on opinions, and backing up a vote with good logic, in a,nonaggressive way. And tbh, you have me convinced on NJAC. While my thoughts are aimed at intentionally inactive Shinori, and pretty much anyone who uses novicedom as an excuse for innocence (as I've called out before), I am drawn to your accurate argument on the ever-so defensive vote of NJAC.

Mae made probably the best Quality post of this game thus far. I'd post far more like this, but the amount if oversensitivity combined with inactivity in the this game irked me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

On the flipside; Mae, I really don't understand how you think me, or anyone for that matter, would crumb a role within the first page of the game, unless it was an antitownrole (in which, it would be wiser to out that on d1 asap, imo). When I said plan, it was in regards to reaction fishing and ending RVS more quickly, and at the time, it was simple RVS for a small collective of the players here. Heck, it was meant to draw attention and speculation yes, but in a way that a bulldozer blasts through a grocery store wall. In an effort to draw attention, discussion was generated towards me, which led to responses, and our game built off of that. Perhaps it was not the best way to kill rvs before it started, but you can't deny that I failed in my goal.

[Maenara]

Nope, buddying won't work.

Also, your arguments against you breadcrumbing a role on P1 is based on the assumption that you are not, in fact, an idiot. The arguments for you doing so are based on empirical evidence.

[Thurhame]

pirate mollie insists on being scummy.

This is him being stupid and insisting that he knows what's going on when it's completely obvious that he has no perception or grasp of what's happening.

What gave you the idea I think I know what's going on? This is Day 1, no one knows what's going on.

[Hiraki]

Considering that I've explained most of my arguments, your point is null and moot.

If there is something I haven't explained, or in this case I believe that you just can't understand, you should you know

ask me about it?

[Shinori]

I haven't done jack shit of all. Just don't have interest in this game yet at the moment. Let me see if i can get something today.

I still like a mcstab lynch for what it's worth. However that's cause I haven't read much and skimmed stuff. Let me reread and post today. Promise.

[mykonian]

votecount

jun (3): Telo, theomoaner, evilpacman
PMysterious (3): mcstab, jun, slandaar
pirate mollie (2): smashbard, thurhame
NJAC (2): maenara, eleison
theomoaner (1): Hiraki
evilpacman (1): NJAC
mcstab (1): shinori
telo (1): dividizzle

not voting (2): pmysterious, pirate mollie

[Eleison]

Nope, buddying won't work.

Also, your arguments against you breadcrumbing a role on P1 is based on the assumption that you are not, in fact, an idiot. The arguments for you doing so are based on empirical evidence.

Not really in to joining games like this to make myself look stupid by looking at only one side of the coin, forever.

And anyone could've posted like that. Thing is, you did. I acknowledged it and praised good explainations.

Ironically, you think I'm scum, whereas I don't think the same of you. And I admit I'm human, and can adapt to what happens around me. My reads actually changed. It's not sone marvel concept, it's genuine human logic. Sometimes, things change. In court, new evidence is brought up by a testimonial of a witness or third party. Minds change. Are you saying that the above isn't possible without ulterior motives and deception?

And even moreso, if I'm this "idiot" that you say I am, I may as well be role hinting, buddying, sheeping, roleclaiming, RVS'ing still, and votehopping after every other post without the slightest bit of justification, then not defending myself and ignoring any attention directed towards me, and finally, using a newbie card as means to justify innocence. That's an idiot.

Stop looking at this like players either "are or are not, therefore will forever be or not be" idiots.

--

I'm open to contiuing my defense for why RVS is better off ignored, and why outting mass town reads early game, especially without scumreads is poor play.

I'm also open to argue that the noob card, D1role speculation and setup decision, posts that promise activity and aren't followed with any, and AtE, all as anti town (because promoting offtopic/anti town conversation is distracting town from actual scumhunting). These are scumtells. And who are primary victims of this, in this game so far? In order of severity (and thus, scumminess)

:::Most
NJAC
Telo
Shinori
Pmyst
:::Middling
Pirate
Theo
Jun
:::Least

No one cares about Shinori wasting our time by giving us promises to break, so I pulled my vote for him and voted for NJAC, who voted badly. However, upon ISO'ING, Telo and his lovely Jun RVS, has yet to give a reason to it. I pull my vote to Telo, for being active, and yet still contributing nothing towards actual scumhunting. By actively posting, but not contributing any real opinions and hovering on a weakly argued RVS from days ago, (s)he is pretty easily getting away with doing nothing. Antitown? Cheque. Scummy? Cheque.

UNVOTE
VOTE: TELO

[McStab]

I need to do a reread, sorry I've been busy with school. Post coming soon.

[Telo]

I pull my vote to Telo, for being active, and yet still contributing nothing towards actual scumhunting. By actively posting, but not contributing any real opinions and hovering on a weakly argued RVS from days ago, (s)he is pretty easily getting away with doing nothing.

And to continue my 'contributing nothing' reputation I'll just help you out by confirming my gender. I'm a she.
And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

[Shinori]

Nope, buddying won't work.

No one cares about Shinori wasting our time by giving us promises to break

Asshole. =|

Jkily.

Also why is your game off your normal meta?

[Shinori]

oh fuck formatting. The second part was what elie said didn't mean to have maenara quote in there.

[Hiraki]

Can you say a tad bit more than nothing from now on?

[pirate mollie]

do you guys triangulate on here?

What does that entail?

triangulation is when 2 players who have town reads on each other start a dialogue comapring their scum/town piles and bring in another player and form a consensus and then vote as block. they do this in order to control the lynch since town usually moves in herds. it is a very effective strategy since town's main way of eliminating scum is through a lynch.

I have only a played few untimed games so not sure if it would work in this format but I would to try it.

I want to triangulate with slandaar cos he is my strongest town right now, he is cutting through the chaff and I don't think scum would go out of their way to help a newb get out of their very wrong reasoning especially a newb that no one seems to like, lol. if he were scum, I would think that he would just let me get lynched instead of encouraging me to think in a different way.

I want to see if he will work with me and then see if we could bring hikari in since he has a town read on him and I like some of hikari's responses.

triangulation is a good strategy and I have noticed that town wins more games when they do this than not.

[pirate mollie]

I'm really having trouble getting any reads on quite a few of the players here. However, after doing a few Isos in a feeble attempt to be able to do anything at all, here's what I've got.

Spoiler: Town (Strongest to weakest)

Hikari
evilpacman18
Slandaar
McStab
Smashbard
Telo
Thurhame
Jun

Spoiler: Scum (Strongest to weakest)

NJAC
Eleison
pirate mollie
Jun
Theomoaner

Spoiler: Needs more activity

Dividizzle
Shinori
PMysterious

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand,

she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod

. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in order to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

first off why do you have jun in both your town and scum pile?

secondly, I did not "lie", to me it was a fade YMMV.

speaking of anti-town, it is anti-town to policy lynch and to ask the vig to take out a player whom you think might be town. I am noisy but I am not

that

noisy and I am seriously trying here. I haven't called anybody an idiot.

[pirate mollie]

jesus christ I am sorry for the grammar errors in post #214 god that is embarassing.

[Telo]

Mollie, what happens if multiple groups start triangulating?

[pirate mollie]

Mollie, what happens if multiple groups start triangulating?

I haven't seen that happen much, most scum distance themselves from one another and town seems to follow in a herd. that is what usually stands out.

the caveat is when scum seizes the ball. town who are feeling unsure will follow cos scum's logic will seem reasonable. that has to do with the control the narrative that I have been banging on about.

[Eleison]

And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

Thanks for the clarification on your gender. I won't mistake that anymore. But to business.

So, you still have no major opinions on possible scum, and prefer to camp on your RVS vote that, by now, could have an attempted justification?

I'm not calling out that it was weakly argued RVS. RVS isn't really a strong argument. I'm calling out that your RVS is still your only vote, and you've managed to kinda sorta maybe point a finger at a few people. After 9 pages of activity. To add to that, you STILL have your vote on Jun, which at this point, has yet to be explained why. Why do you still have your RVS vote on Jun? Has nothing happened to this point that makes you want to shift your vote around? If you still think Jun is the scummiest person around, or at least is 100% worth your vote, could you at least say so? You haven't mentioned a notable case against Jun, so it's hard to really read your vote as justified when other players are easily able to form hard cases and justifiable reasoning. If anything, you camping on Jun since RVS indicates to me either apathy (antitown / scum), you know something we don't (scum), skimreading (antitown / scum), inactivity (null tell) or noviceness (null tell). I could go on, but I think you get my point.

[Smashbard]

We love you too, Hiraki.

But fine, the overwhelming consesus has persuaded me to believe that Pirate Mollie is probably just NewbTown. Even so, if there is a vig or something, I don't think Eleison or Pirate Mollie would be the worst possible targets. I'd honestly like to be rid of them, one way or the other, and if it so happens that they die instead of a more useful player, heh, who's complaining?

I'd be complaining quite a bit if the hypothetical Vig decided his ability was better served towards killing suspected newbtown rather than killing suspected scum.

Why, then, do I vote for Pirate Mollie? Because she's bad for town. Like, terribad. In all seriousness, I don't get why she's allowed to continue to exist. She's slinging around accusations based on concepts she clearly doesn't understand,

she was straight up lying, concerning me "fading", and she's trying to game the mod

. It's just not something we should allow to continue. If not a lynch, I plead for any hypothetical vigilante or similar to put her out of our misery - I know that some might say that her flailing will allow us to determine her alignment on a later day, but all too often, on other sites, I've seen hordes of people with play so bad that one cannot possibly tell their scum from their town, because both are just that anti-town. She really is the typical VI.

And if not Pirate Mollie, then NJAC or Eleison. For the latter, a policy lynch would be appropriate, what with deliberately causing anti-town WIFOM with the hinting and all, as well as the theorycrafting. As for the former...

Look at his ISO. He is definitely not saying enough, chooses to defend a person he sees is under attack in order to establish later town-cred. When then accused of this, he keeps doing it in order to not attract attention by altering his play, but still defends himself against the allegations, before proceeding to... Vote for the person attacking his accusor, calling said person opportunistic and then being so himself?

Methink this is scum trying to establish some town cred for later use.

I know everyone hates considering the possibilities and "theorycrafting", but say there is a Vig. Why is it ideal that the Vig kill off town, even if they are newb/anti town? I'd think the Vig would want to do the same thing most nondoctor roles want to do, target scum. It's probably the best thing about being a Vig, the fact that you can take justice into your own hands and kill someone you suspect is Scum, even if the rest of the town doesn't agree with you.

Although I agree about NJACK. Just because you say "I'm not defending Jun", that doesn't 1) Automatically mean you are not defending him and 2) Doesn't excuse you to immediately follow that statement with yet another defense of Jun.

For serious though, It's the same principle as using the terms "But". You can't say "I'm not racist but," and then be allowed to follow up with a racist comment on not be called out on it. You can't say "With all due respect" and then tell the person they are a piece of crap and expect them not to get mad about it. You've been defending Jun. Period. Now whether or not Jun is really town your constant denial of your defense only to get right back into defending them is not only making you look scummy, but also making Jun scummy just by association with you.

first off why do you have jun in both your town and scum pile?

secondly, I did not "lie", to me it was a fade YMMV.

speaking of anti-town, it is anti-town to policy lynch and to ask the vig to take out a player whom you think might be town. I am noisy but I am not

that

noisy and I am seriously trying here. I haven't called anybody an idiot.

I like this post from Mollie. It reads more town than scum. So my weariness is starting to fade.

[Smashbard]

Unvote.

Vote: NJACK

[Shinori]

Can you say a tad bit more than nothing from now on?

IMPOSSIBRUUUU

And my weakly argued RVS (didn't realize they needed to be agued since they're random) will very likely stand for a few more days since I'm going to be V/LA (opening weekend for hunting) this weekend. So unless something big happens tomorrow my vote for Jun will probably be there until at least Monday.

Thanks for the clarification on your gender. I won't mistake that anymore. But to business.

So, you still have no major opinions on possible scum, and prefer to camp on your RVS vote that, by now, could have an attempted justification?

I'm not calling out that it was weakly argued RVS. RVS isn't really a strong argument. I'm calling out that your RVS is still your only vote, and you've managed to kinda sorta maybe point a finger at a few people. After 9 pages of activity. To add to that, you STILL have your vote on Jun, which at this point, has yet to be explained why. Why do you still have your RVS vote on Jun? Has nothing happened to this point that makes you want to shift your vote around? If you still think Jun is the scummiest person around, or at least is 100% worth your vote, could you at least say so? You haven't mentioned a notable case against Jun, so it's hard to really read your vote as justified when other players are easily able to form hard cases and justifiable reasoning. If anything, you camping on Jun since RVS indicates to me either apathy (antitown / scum), you know something we don't (scum), skimreading (antitown / scum), inactivity (null tell) or noviceness (null tell). I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Why did you ignore me Elie? You're off on your town meta and you are defintely being a lot more aggresive. Something about you seems off. Part of it is gut feeling.

However after ISOing you I find this wierd. You voted: Pm(RVS) - Me(Wanting me to say stuff) - NJAC(You said Mae had you convinced on this, feels like just sheeping) - SIX POSTS LATER you swap to TELO(You are supposedly voting because their only vote is RVS which I don't see as the best vote. Why not me in that situation? I've been less active and really don't have any sort of viable vote with reasoning down.)

Yeah. Your vote hop from NJAC to TELO is terrible and you defintely have my attention. I don't like it.

##Unvote:
##Vote: Eleison

I'm fine with this vote now and other people should hop onto this.

[Jun]

but you neglected to quote my entire post, which included my thoughts on scum.

That's not the point.

To Hikari: I don't find Theo scummy at the moment because we share a genuine suspicion of Jun's play. If my gut is right and Jun is scum, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for Theo to just straight up buss a scumbuddy so early in the game like that. As he's trying pretty hard to get him lynched.

Just because he's trying hard doesn't mean anything.

Wasn't this guy supposed to show up and contribute more by page 6? I want to hear what he will say.

I am regretting a tad bit, after seeing shit like this rather than something actually important, that I gave you a town read.

eta: I think newbs in this setting

should

be gone after but not for reasons like your gut is telling you that someone is bad or you don't like a playstyle. go after someone you find objectively scummy.

I think it's perfectly legitimate to vote a lurker to entice them to come back and um. Let's see. Participate? Isn't that the point of this game? He even said he would come back by page 6. I think it's anti town to let people like PMysterious lurk.

do you guys triangulate on here?

What does that entail?

triangulation is when 2 players who have town reads on each other start a dialogue comapring their scum/town piles and bring in another player and form a consensus and then vote as block. they do this in order to control the lynch since town usually moves in herds. it is a very effective strategy since town's main way of eliminating scum is through a lynch.

I have only a played few untimed games so not sure if it would work in this format but I would to try it.

I want to triangulate with slandaar cos he is my strongest town right now, he is cutting through the chaff and I don't think scum would go out of their way to help a newb get out of their very wrong reasoning especially a newb that no one seems to like, lol. if he were scum, I would think that he would just let me get lynched instead of encouraging me to think in a different way.

I want to see if he will work with me and then see if we could bring hikari in since he has a town read on him and I like some of hikari's responses.

triangulation is a good strategy and I have noticed that town wins more games when they do this than not.

So I guess I'm on peoples' scum lists. I need time to reread the thread to look at everyone individually, but my triangulation list so far is that Thurhame and NJAC are town since they are playing very similar to the way they played in Newbie 1269. Expect NJAC to not vote much and expect him to come under fire for being kind of a late starter. I think NJAC or myself is an easy town mislynch, so I urge you to read Newbie 1269 if you want to see that this exact same thing happened in our recently finished game.

My vote's fine on PMysterious. He needs to come back and contribute and anybody who says I'm scummy for voting him is anti town for giving lurkers a free pass to lurk.

[Slandaar]

Triangulating doesn't seem good to me.

What is your opinion on it Jun?