Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Smashbard]

Hmm, good point. I retract my town read on Thurhame/numbers guy. He can be an unsure read for now.

Serious question here: What does it take in your eyes for someone to be declared scummy on Day 1? I'd like everyone to answer this question. Because your reads, Jun, as well as those of Dividizzle, NJAC and Telo, have been confusing me for a while now.

Players can making normally damning slips, that in almost any other environment would of gotten them lynched by now, and your reads don't seem to change much. Scumslips cause town reads to just become null instead of scum. Analysis that is late to the game like Telo's would be slammed as not paying attention in most games, but some of you read it as Pro-Town points.

I'm trying to gauge why some of you are being so...I dunno what's a nice word for it...difficult to work with? Pirate Mollie expressed earlier about wanting to form Triangulation teams but I really can't imagine triangulating with most of you people because I could dangle a Scum PM Role of another player in front of you and it feels like you'd still drag your feet to the wagon.

Cautiousness is fine, it's a natural town reaction that we all feel because we are not sure what's going to happen on the flip, and sometimes we don't want to see what's behind curtain #2. But overcautiousness, fence sitting, stalling and low confidence in your own reads is only serving to stall the game and allow half of us to lurk like crocodiles.

Some of those things can be scumtells, but for now I'm really just trying to get some of my fellow newbies to throw me a bone here, what's it going to take for us to come together in agreement on a lynch?

[Telo]

I don't feel that my analysis deserved to be slammed at all. My post about Mollie was observant and backed up by her response to it. I said that she'd given up and she confirmed that by saying that she's not fighting the lynch against her. I don't get how that's me not paying attention?

When Mollie mentioned triangulation earlier I showed a willingness to learn the technique and she ignored me. I don't see myself as being hard to work with as much as I see myself being either over looked or my contributions being dismissed.

I also don't understand what you mean by fence sitting. To me, fence sitting means you can't make up your mind (vote). The only people that haven't voted are Mysterious and Pacman.

I'm willing to work with you but I'd like a good reason why my vote

shouldn't

be on Mysterious?
Oh and to answer your question

What does it take in your eyes for someone to be declared scummy on Day 1?

For me it's catching someone in a lie. That can include saying you will do something and then not doing it. Mysterious fits that profile.

[buldermar]

I don't exactly understand where five votes at me jumped out of, as I have no idea why what I said is a scumslip.

I won't use that as an excuse for scumslips, so don't worry about that.

hey you guiz!!!!!! you Guyz! I finds a scum!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Numberscum

Although it is phrased in a careless way that semantically means its author is scum, I think that people are generally more careful about semantics as scum and, in turn, less likely to make such mistakes as scum relative to as town. However, in this case even the intended message is perculiar. No town should need to make promises of not showing scum behavior because, as town, it's always optimal not to whilst it occasionally can be optimal to deviate from this as scum (i.e. scumslips).

I can't think of an alternative plausible intended message to this and will for this reason vote (note: the easy way to get me to change my mind would be to show me one).
UNVOTE:
VOTE: 10506670

How does this "semantically" say it's author is scum? I wrote that down because Slandaar seemed to be accusing me of using that last bit of my description as a safeguard in case I said something stupid, as I wrote in my last post. Perhaps you have a different definition of scumslip than me, because I have no idea what y'all are talking about.

I'm not making a promise of not showing scumslips either. I'm saying that if I scumslipped (i.e. said something horribly wrong or horribly defensive) you guys can expect that I won't take the insanity card out of jail. You guys are stretching the cord on this one.

To do a scumslip, one must be scum.

[mykonian]

votecount

10506670 (6): slandaar, maenara, smashbard, buldermar, theomoaner, eleison
pirate mollie (3): Hiraki, jun, 10506670
buldermar (1): shinori
shinori (1): pirate mollie
slandaar (1): NJAC
NJAC (1): dividizzle
pmysterious (1): Telo


not voting (2): pmysterious, evilpacman

With 16 players it is 9 to lynch (8 to no lynch)

Deadline is on the 30th of september

[Smashbard]

Spoiler Tags for giant wall post of annoyingness.

Spoiler:

I don't feel that my analysis deserved to be slammed at all. My post about Mollie was observant and backed up by her response to it. I said that she'd given up and she confirmed that by saying that she's not fighting the lynch against her. I don't get how that's me not paying attention?

Because a lot of your analysis involved points revolving around how close Pirate Mollie was to a lynch, when by that time most people on the wagon already jumped off and we were focusing on Numbers scumslip. Your post seemed like it was analysis based on things already being talked about several pages ago, so you were behind the ball. That would look scummy to many people because unless you were already working on your case in a Word document or something there's no way you would of missed the new pages of content and still been thinking Mollie was going to get lynched.

When Mollie mentioned triangulation earlier I showed a willingness to learn the technique and she ignored me. I don't see myself as being hard to work with as much as I see myself being either over looked or my contributions being dismissed.

I can't speak for other players but for me a lot of what you've said so far beyond the above analysis of the Mollie wagon, has been just coasting through the game. That's not meant to be a jab at you. But you haven't really stuck out as a unique player as of yet. That's why you get commonly lumped into my arguments with guys like NJAC, Jun, and Shinori. Because none of you are really standing out, for better or worse. You've all kind of just danced around the wagons and followed other peoples logic. None of you have established a unique identity yet, because your contributions are all largely the same.

I also don't understand what you mean by fence sitting. To me, fence sitting means you can't make up your mind (vote). The only people that haven't voted are Mysterious and Pacman.

It's not always about votes though, or even how often you use them or where you put them. An example of fence sitting is like being wishy washy or waffly without sticking to a solid opinion that helps the game move forward. It's about as useful as saying "Charles Manson is either a psycho or misunderstood". Nobody gets any information out of that kind of argument.

Similar to posts like "I'm keeping an eye on this interaction between these two players, but I don't know if they are scummy yet". It's sitting on the fence because all you've done is post an observation with no meat behind it.

Or like Jun just did, when 5 other people have declared that Numbers posted a rather egregious scumslip, Jun makes a soft opinion saying "He's no longer town in my eyes, but not scum either". That doesn't help anybody. And is largely the quote that caused me to ask my question. Because it seems like you guys are purposefully dragging your feet in light of strong scum evidence.

Just because you can't be 100% sure of something, doesn't mean you can't have a solid opinion on it. Null tells are not solid opinions.

I'm willing to work with you but I'd like a good reason why my vote

shouldn't

be on Mysterious?

No, there isn't necessarily a "good" reason why we shouldn't lynch PMysterious. But the case is weak. All he's done is lurked. In order to successfully lynch him (which I'd love to do, because I hate lurkers) you'd have to have a particularly callous town. Because in my experience trying to convince your fellow players to lynch a lurker is like pulling teeth that have been compacted in the mouth.

So a PMysterious vote is a good one for policy reasons, but you'll never get a majority lynch on him because there are more players who have posted more content that we have to go off of and people want to lynch scummy individuals moreso than inactive individuals.

So when we are in this kind of situation where we are a week away from Deadline, players need to start making a choice between the two wagons. Either Pirate Mollie or Numbers should be todays lynch, as those are the two with the most traction against them. I think any argument that tries to convince people of a third lynch target will need to be VERY convincing in order to get any support at this point, which includes PMysterious.

TL;DR because I hate walls:

1) Your analysis would normally come under scrutiny because it's dated, as there really is no more traction to the Pirate Mollie wagon. So a lot of your case will be dismissed by most players because a lot of the experienced guys are already jumping on Numbers, and they want arguments for/against a Numbers lynch, not Pirate Mollie.

2) Fence sitting is where you don't dedicate a real opinion that helps to advance the game. When town is infighting over whether or not Player A or B is scum, and you go off in your little world and say Player F is scummy and lone wolf vote him, you're not contributing to advancing the game.

and 3) I'd love to lynch PMysterious, as well as any other lurkers this game. But you'll almost never find a set of players willing to lynch a lurker. Because there are more active players in the game who have more material to go off of, and it's easier to make a lynch on a scummy player than a lurker. Hence why scumlurking is such an effective strategy. Nobody will ever lynch a lurker unless they absolutely have to.

[theomoaner]

To do a scumslip, one must be scum.

QFT

IMHO Jun is not voting for losobbto because he is newby-scum and hasn't learnt that sometimes you need to bus your own team to gain town cred. If number-dude flips scum then It's almost a certainty that Jun will flip scum too.

@Telo: Why is PMyst's lurking worse than, say, NJAC's

Sorry about the absence, really need to reread the thread and some ISO's. I agree with the last post of dividizzle. Don't see the need to quicklynch Mollie. Of course

I'll read her ISO and come with a read on her,

but it's pro-town to think things and use our votes wisely, so if someone else is going to jump on that wagon, they better think it twice and reread before voting, even more considering some players have not posted enough (I'm one of them I know) or are going to be replaced.

This was also a promise that never materialised, so why PMyst over NJAC?

@PMyst: Please stop prod dodging. You do realise that you have a lower post count than Thurhame who replaced out over a week ago, don't you. If you are not that committed to this game then

PLEASE

give your slot up to someone who is interested. Thank you.

[theomoaner]

@Mollie: I missed this bit on my initial read through, it explains much

okay. I have been nightkilled in another game cos the SK is retarded but it has moved me into hyperdrive about this game.

I am about to do a 180 on some of my reads maybe that will liven things up.

Apologies for calling you a liar.

I still think you are team scum though.

Move along, nothing to see here.

[Telo]

TL;DR because I hate walls:

1) Your analysis would normally come under scrutiny because it's dated, as there really is no more traction to the Pirate Mollie wagon. So a lot of your case will be dismissed by most players because a lot of the experienced guys are already jumping on Numbers, and they want arguments for/against a Numbers lynch, not Pirate Mollie.

********

I don't really know what you mean by

dated

She had seven votes against her that morning. I don't know if you can call something that happened within the same morning

dated

. You're right about some people unvoting but not all of them stated who they were unvoting and at the time I made that post I was on my nook which on this forum isn't the easiest to read or post from which is why I made that comment about formatting when I was able to get to a computer.

********

2) Fence sitting is where you don't dedicate a real opinion that helps to advance the game. When town is infighting over whether or not Player A or B is scum, and you go off in your little world and say Player F is scummy and lone wolf vote him, you're not contributing to advancing the game.

*********

What can I say? I'm more of a wolf than a sheep. I don't make apologies for it. I don't agree with the mollie wagon and my reasons for wanting to vote mysterious outweigh the reasons presented against 105.

**********

and 3)

I'd love to lynch PMysterious

, as well as any other lurkers this game. But you'll almost never find a set of players willing to lynch a lurker. Because there are more active players in the game who have more material to go off of, and it's easier to make a lynch on a scummy player than a lurker. Hence why scumlurking is such an effective strategy. Nobody will ever lynch a lurker unless they absolutely have to.

********

I find it very interesting that you admit you'd love to lynch PMysterious yet you're critisizing me for having the guts to vote for the person that you want to vote for. Why is that? You accuse me of being difficult but all I'm doing is what you say you want to do.
You claim that no one would would be willing to lynch him but you want him lynched and you're not -no one-. Present a case against him and see what happens.

Another thing I wanted to add to your point 3 where you posit that it's easier to lynch a scummy player than a lurker... if that's true, what's the incentive to post?

Again, I disagree with you. I'd much rather lynch someone who's not present and playing the game than someone who's contributing and making it fun. It's up to us who to lynch. If you want mysterious lynched but you're not voting for him I see you as the fence sitter.

[dividizzle]

@Smash: Usually scumslips scare me in terms of being a rationale for quicklynch because they seem like they are often toeing the line between damning and trivial. I also have just found that D1 is harder for me because I like to rely on analyzing a person's overall actions/interactions. I have to leave but more to post this afternoon.

[theomoaner]

@Telo: There is an inherent problem with the whole "lynch the lurker" argument, and that is that it is as easy for town to lurk as it is for scum. Simply lynching people for not posting is an easy way for scum to coast to a victory, it gives them easy targets with no danger of exposing themselves in trying to manufacture evidence. Mods tend to have a mechanism to remove excessively lurky players from the game, often 3 prods and your out.

I too would not have a problem with a lynch on PMyst, he's just a terribad player, but I would only realistically enter into a policy lynch if we were approaching the deadline with no consensus on a probable scum lynch, and as day 1 prob-scum lynches go, numberguy is a good one, especially when you include Thurhame's play.

Now are you going to answer my question, Why PMyst and not NJAC?

[Shinori]

I don't think that was a scum slip. And I think there is too much of a big deal over nothing here. That's my two cents.

[Slandaar]

I find it very hard to believe numbers does not know what a scumslip is with 4months on site / 2 completed games; I think that should easily be enough. There is no way this did not come up in a previous game if he truly didn't know as Scumslip accusations are so common and the way he said it wasn't even in response to one in the first place.

[buldermar]

About policylynching of lurkers:

People seem to overlook the importance of the estimated alignment of the remaining players. For instance, if all active players looks townish, that effectively skews the lurking players alignment towards scum. On the contrary, if all active players looks scumish, that effectively skews the lurking players alignment towards town. As such, no general rules can be made with respect to lynching or not lynching lurking players - it always depends on what reads you have on the active players. Statements such as "scumlurking is an effective strategy" are obviously nonsense for this reason.

[10506670]

Slandaar, you are really misrepping me now.

I never said I don't know what a scumslip is. But what I thought was a scumslip clearly differs from what you think is one. In my eyes, a scumslip is any mess up, regardless of alignment. I feel like I'm quoting someone at this point, but town is capable of slipping up as well, and on my second game exactly that happened. Conman, who ends up being town, says something very stupid and nearly gets lynched over it.

[10506670]

The admission that you already know ahead of time that you're going to make scumslips pretty much by definition means that you will make a slip that will implicate you as scum. Which tells me right out of the gate you are trying to blend into the town, but already know you're going to slip up and make mistakes in your logic. Which reads to me like uncomfortable scum who is trying to just smooth over any mistakes he makes beforehand by jokingly saying "I won't use the insanity defense". What kind of defense will you use? Why do you need a defense at all? Maybe because you know you're scum.

I think you should read the post I made before that thoroughly. In no way am I saying I am going to make scumslips. The wording may have implied that to you, but when I read my sentence:

I won't use that as an excuse for scumslips, so don't worry about that.

I don't get any sense that I will make scumslips. And how am I "blending into town"? If anything, I'm standing out. And the fact that "I won't use the insanity defense" is not a joke at all. It's dead serious, as Slandaar was implicitly accusing me of using it as a defense. Furthermore, I never even used the word defense in my original sentence, and you're putting words in my mouth at this point.

Excuse != defense. An excuse is something like "oh I was drunk last night a posted a bunch of random crap". A defense is a structured counter to an accusation made by someone else. Excuses often slide without any further questioning, whereas defenses are always under scrutiny.

[pirate mollie]

Slandaar, you are really misrepping me now.

I never said I don't know what a scumslip is. But what I thought was a scumslip clearly differs from what you think is one. In my eyes, a scumslip is any mess up, regardless of alignment. I feel like I'm quoting someone at this point, but town is capable of slipping up as well, and on my second game exactly that happened. Conman, who ends up being town, says something very stupid and nearly gets lynched over it.

town is capable of scummy looking behaviour but a scumslip is only done by scum. hth

[Smashbard]

Telo...I'm voting for someone I believe to be scum and advancing the game at the same time. Thats the exact opposite of fence sitting. You on the other hand saying you want to be a lone wolf is a contradiction to your earlier claim that you are willing to

[Smashbard]

Work with us. So since you are lying about wanting to work with the town, and find liars to be scum, can we lynch you now?

[Telo]

@Telo: There is an inherent problem with the whole "lynch the lurker" argument, and that is that it is as easy for town to lurk as it is for scum.

I have a very simple solution to that problem. If you're town - don't lurk.

Simply lynching people for not posting is an easy way for scum to coast to a victory, it gives them easy targets with no danger of exposing themselves in trying to manufacture evidence.

It sounds like what you're saying is that people who don't post will be safe from votes. I think that's part of the problem.

I too would not have a problem with a lynch on PMyst,

That makes three of us maybe more yet he only has one vote. I don't get it.

Now are you going to answer my question, Why PMyst and not NJAC?

I already did.

[Telo]

@smashbard:
I didn't say I wanted to be a lone wolf. That was your characterization of me. I don't see any reason to argue it since it's more accurate to call me a wolf than a sheep but I never styled myself as such.

I didn't lie when I said I was willing to work with the town but you seem to think "working with" equates to blindly following. I disagree. First it's not in my nature to blindly follow people and second I don't like what's happening to CF right now for doing exactly what it is that you're asking me to do.

But to answer your question:

can we lynch you now?

you don't need my permission to cast a vote. You should be voting for the person you find scummiest. If that's me, then have at it.

[theomoaner]

I have a very simple solution to that problem. If you're town - don't lurk.

Good luck with getting that into effect, you could start a campaign.

It sounds like what you're saying is that people who don't post will be safe from votes. I think that's part of the problem.

It is.

That makes three of us maybe more yet he only has one vote. I don't get it.

Other people are scummy, PMyst is just lurking, I'd rather lynch scum, and deal with PMyst if and when we don't have better targets. Actually I'd rather PMyst and the other lurkers be force replaced so we don't have to waste a lynches on them but that's up to Mykonian.

I already did.

You didn't, I asked the question in #480, you haven't addressed it yet.

[Telo]

Ok theomoaner you win, you've convinced me to stop posting in this thread because lurkers are safe from votes. I really don't see the fun in that but I guess I'll see you once every three days to post "I'm still here"

[theomoaner]

OK see you in three days then. Or you could try reading my post properly and try to understand what I am saying. Lurking is a shit way of playing this game, but some people do it and voting for them just makes the game easier for the scum to win. Sure we COULD just vote out PMyst, NJAC, Eleison, Dividizzle, EPM and Maenara, easily, but if they are all town? then we have reduced the game to a scum win, because with NK's that's 12 townies dead, IE all of us. So

PLEASE

stop getting hung up on lurkers and start scum hunting. I bet team scum are roflyssting at this crap.

[theomoaner]

And

please

answer my question in #480.

[Smashbard]

You say its blindly following, but there are mountains of text that you can analyze to get a scum read on anyone. You're being lazy, sticking with a PM vote that was relevant 14 PAGES AGO!