Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[pirate mollie]

lol, just because I disagree with you does not make me scum it means I disagree with you.

buldemar stands out to me more than numbers person.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

this:

Slandaar, you are really misrepping me now.

I never said I don't know what a scumslip is. But what I thought was a scumslip clearly differs from what you think is one. In my eyes, a scumslip is any mess up, regardless of alignment. I feel like I'm quoting someone at this point, but town is capable of slipping up as well, and on my second game exactly that happened. Conman, who ends up being town, says something very stupid and nearly gets lynched over it.

There is a difference between scumslip and scumtell. Your example is a case of the latter of the two.

cos I do not think that misunderstanding a term is a scumtell town can do this just as often.

if you would have made a case on that they tried to move the bw to a point of closure I could wrap my head around that otherwise it just is just parroting what has already been said and I find that followy.

[buldermar]

Slandaar, you are really misrepping me now.

I never said I don't know what a scumslip is. But what I thought was a scumslip clearly differs from what you think is one. In my eyes, a scumslip is any mess up, regardless of alignment. I feel like I'm quoting someone at this point, but town is capable of slipping up as well, and on my second game exactly that happened. Conman, who ends up being town, says something very stupid and nearly gets lynched over it.

There is a difference between scumslip and scumtell. Your example is a case of the latter of the two.

Buldermar, I think this may be a slight misunderstanding on your part.

The case on me is as follows: I scumslipped/scumtelled because of my use of the word "scumslip".

Here I'm saying that my definition of scumslip includes the fact that town can scumslip. I'm NOT using that to say that

I

accidentally slipped as town. I'm saying that my fundamental difference in definition of scumslip is what caused what I said to look like a scumslip/scumtell to you guys, when in reality it was an honest town remark.

Sorry if this logic seems convoluted, but it's mainly because of the weird nature of the case against me.

Your logic is reasonable. However, it does not eliminate the possibility of the alternative explanation, being that you're simply making this up now. That being said, you did what I requested so I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.

UNVOTE: 10506670

[buldermar]

lol, just because I disagree with you does not make me scum it means I disagree with you.

buldemar stands out to me more than numbers person.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

this:

Slandaar, you are really misrepping me now.

I never said I don't know what a scumslip is. But what I thought was a scumslip clearly differs from what you think is one. In my eyes, a scumslip is any mess up, regardless of alignment. I feel like I'm quoting someone at this point, but town is capable of slipping up as well, and on my second game exactly that happened. Conman, who ends up being town, says something very stupid and nearly gets lynched over it.

There is a difference between scumslip and scumtell. Your example is a case of the latter of the two.

cos I do not think that misunderstanding a term is a scumtell town can do this just as often.

if you would have made a case on that they tried to move the bw to a point of closure I could wrap my head around that otherwise it just is just parroting what has already been said and I find that followy.

That's all on the premise that it

is

a misunderstanding. How can you determine with certainty that it's a misunderstanding? Suppose the opposite premise: it's

not

a misunderstanding. This leads to his alignment being skewed towards scum because, given this premise, he'd never have a reason to mention it as town. It has to be a misunderstanding quite often (hypothetically speaking) to justify not voting.

You finding me followy means at least two things: 1) you've

definitely

not been looking at my latest game, which means that you're either a scum who already knows my alignment in this or a town who doesn't want to dedicate the adequate time to make a psychological profile on me. 2) you have no idea what you're talking about.

[mykonian]

votecount

10506670 (5): slandaar, maenara, smashbard, theomoaner, eleison
pirate mollie (3): Hiraki, jun, 10506670
buldermar (1): shinori
shinori (1): pirate mollie
slandaar (1): NJAC
NJAC (1): dividizzle
pmysterious (1): Telo


not voting (3): pmysterious, evilpacman, buldermar

With 16 players it is 9 to lynch (8 to no lynch)

Deadline is on the 30th of september

[theomoaner]

The thing that is really baking my noodle here is that in the games I have played on this site I have hardly seen mention of the term scumslip, yet in Number-dude's two games on this site there is much disscusion of the term. I'm trying to decide whether this is why he doesn't understand the term, or whether it was clear from the references in the newbie game's as to it's meaning.
I think in one of his newbie games (1244) the meaning of "scumslip" is made

very

apparent, so I don't see how he would really have a different meaning from everyone else.

Oh no, I just did meta

[pirate mollie]

That's all on the premise that it

is

a misunderstanding. How can you determine with certainty that it's a misunderstanding? Suppose the opposite premise: it's

not

a misunderstanding. This leads to his alignment being skewed towards scum because, given this premise, he'd never have a reason to mention it as town. It has to be a misunderstanding quite often (hypothetically speaking) to justify not voting.

I read it as a misunderstanding wrt to scum or town. what I am saying is I think he was genuinely confused about it but it isn't indicative of his alignment. good players should be able to read that. his pushing a bw on an unpopular player does look scummy

You finding me followy means at least two things: 1) you've

definitely

not been looking at my latest game, which means that you're either a scum who already knows my alignment in this or a town who doesn't want to dedicate the adequate time to make a psychological profile on me. 2) you have no idea what you're talking about.

lol.

I don't feel the need to read your previous games I would rather rely on this one for now. if we are both alive by d3 then I will cos it will be more pertinent but right now I am going by what is relevant in this game and it would not have an impact on my thinking unless you think in your previous games you were followy too.

but wow.

[pirate mollie]

The thing that is really baking my noodle here is that in the games I have played on this site I have hardly seen mention of the term scumslip, yet in Number-dude's two games on this site there is much disscusion of the term. I'm trying to decide whether this is why he doesn't understand the term, or whether it was clear from the references in the newbie game's as to it's meaning.
I think in one of his newbie games (1244) the meaning of "scumslip" is made

very

apparent, so I don't see how he would really have a different meaning from everyone else.

Oh no, I just did meta

can you link the post(s) since you have apparently done the research

[buldermar]

That's all on the premise that it

is

a misunderstanding. How can you determine with certainty that it's a misunderstanding? Suppose the opposite premise: it's

not

a misunderstanding. This leads to his alignment being skewed towards scum because, given this premise, he'd never have a reason to mention it as town. It has to be a misunderstanding quite often (hypothetically speaking) to justify not voting.

I read it as a misunderstanding wrt to scum or town. what I am saying is I think he was genuinely confused about it but it isn't indicative of his alignment. good players should be able to read that. his pushing a bw on an unpopular player does look scummy

You finding me followy means at least two things: 1) you've

definitely

not been looking at my latest game, which means that you're either a scum who already knows my alignment in this or a town who doesn't want to dedicate the adequate time to make a psychological profile on me. 2) you have no idea what you're talking about.

lol.

I don't feel the need to read your previous games I would rather rely on this one for now. if we are both alive by d3 then I will cos it will be more pertinent but right now I am going by what is relevant in this game and it would not have an impact on my thinking unless you think in your previous games you were followy too.

but wow.

You already clarified how you interpreted things. You have close to nothing to rely on in this game which is why I find it perculiar that you're already stamping me. My previous games are relevant for this game because certain psychological tendencies will be out of my own personal control. This is how reads are generally made; by adjoining things and interpreting the implications. You'd not have wrongfully stampled me had you read my previous game.

[10506670]

UNVOTE: pirate mollie

Will post if possible in about 4 hours. Need to get back to work.

[10506670]

The thing that is really baking my noodle here is that in the games I have played on this site I have hardly seen mention of the term scumslip, yet in Number-dude's two games on this site there is much disscusion of the term. I'm trying to decide whether this is why he doesn't understand the term, or whether it was clear from the references in the newbie game's as to it's meaning.
I think in one of his newbie games (1244) the meaning of "scumslip" is made

very

apparent, so I don't see how he would really have a different meaning from everyone else.

Oh no, I just did meta

Seriously theomoaner? This isn't intended as an attack on you personally, but you really need to pay a bit more attention to exactly what you're condemning. I had a general idea of what a scumslip is - it's something that seems to implicate the user as scum. If you had actually read my second newbie game (1253), you would have realized this from the Conman "scumslip". But my point is that my previous definition differed in the

slight nuance

that both town and scum can scumslip*. It's a slight difference, but it really makes a difference in light of the accusations thrown at me.

Speaking of which, Slandaar, you are not responding at all to my numerous clarifications. You did, however, find the time to question Mollie about her unresponsiveness on me. I'm not saying that that's an invalid point, but are you /ignoring everything I've been saying?

*indicates my previous definition

[Smashbard]

The thing that is really baking my noodle here is that in the games I have played on this site I have hardly seen mention of the term scumslip, yet in Number-dude's two games on this site there is much disscusion of the term. I'm trying to decide whether this is why he doesn't understand the term, or whether it was clear from the references in the newbie game's as to it's meaning.
I think in one of his newbie games (1244) the meaning of "scumslip" is made

very

apparent, so I don't see how he would really have a different meaning from everyone else.

Oh no, I just did meta

Seriously theomoaner? This isn't intended as an attack on you personally, but you really need to pay a bit more attention to exactly what you're condemning. I had a general idea of what a scumslip is - it's something that seems to implicate the user as scum. If you had actually read my second newbie game (1253), you would have realized this from the Conman "scumslip". But my point is that my previous definition differed in the

slight nuance

that both town and scum can scumslip*. It's a slight difference, but it really makes a difference in light of the accusations thrown at me.

Speaking of which, Slandaar, you are not responding at all to my numerous clarifications. You did, however, find the time to question Mollie about her unresponsiveness on me. I'm not saying that that's an invalid point, but are you /ignoring everything I've been saying?

*indicates my previous definition

You're still confusing scumtells with scumslips. Scumslips are when you say something that implicates you as scum. Scumtells are actions that you do that can be construed as scummy.


Here's some wiki entries for you so that you may finally understand that you are wrong, that you can't just change definitions to your liking to weasel your way out of suspicion, and hopefully you just surrender yourself as scum and allow us to move on to start finding your scum partners Day 2.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumslip

Scumslipping is something you say that gives you up as mafia, 100%.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumtell

Subjective tells that what you do is a scummy action. These are the things that town and mafia can both do.

Town and mafia do NOT scumslip. Only mafia scumslips. So anybody who's still stuck on this line of reasoning can be at the top of my scumlist. Be warned.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: That's regardless of what my previous read on you was based on my ISO's. Only scum are going to continue stamping their feet demanding that town can perform scumslips. Because you're just looking for an easy excuse to get yourself out of any obvious mistakes you make to confuse us and make us more paranoid than natural that nothing that anyone says can be construed as a scumslip because "both town and scum do them". Bullshit.

[theomoaner]

@Mollie: to quote or link would be a serious TL;DR, just view his topics and search for scumtell and scumslip.
[opinion] Both are used sufficently for any reasonably intelligent person to realise that there is a difference, and what that difference is [/opinion]

I don't get what you mean by Thurhame being a "safe" player.

[Slandaar]

Do I actually have to read through these newbie games...

[Slandaar]

Mollie you have been very quiet re NumbersGuy

Why?

cos I don't see where he made a scum slip. I see someone who does not know exactly what a scum slip is which is why I corrected him.

Thats not a reason.

Not a town reason anyway.

lol, just because I disagree with you does not make me scum it means I disagree with you.

buldemar stands out to me more than numbers person.

OK for those who don't see why this is so damning;

Mollie is very vocal; to not say a thing on the subject of Numbers (read: it does not matter the opinion) sitting quietly ignoring it is a major scumtell as it is the most major event in the game not involving her.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie

Numbers lynch is fine they are probably just buddies. Mollie is scum though.

[theomoaner]

Do I actually have to read through these newbie games...

Some people, they want the moon on a stick....

From Newb 1244, I think the context here is easily understood to mean only scum can scumslip.

Hey y'all. I'm Gliffie, arriving a bit late to the party. It'll be fun playing with you all

Johnny are you trying to say you would play the same as town as you do as scum? Or is this a possible scumslip here?

phdjnkrnfkernk. I absolutely

hate

it when people say shit like "possible scumslip?". The whole logic is pants on head retarded. Scum are the most cautious players in the game (along with the doc), so why on earth would they slip up? Yeah, it might happen, especially here in newbie games (just look at <numbers>), but more often than not it's just some scrub-a-bub townie, and I know that feel. To be honest, I feel like scum are more likely to do the whole "ooh, scumslip??" charade. At least that's how it is in my experience.

And then there is this passage from 1244 which talks about scum tells, again I think from the context its obvious that Thor665 is talking about town who are behaving as scum and so exhibiting tells instead of slips.

Thor, you did lead a few mislynches. (all of them if memory serves.)

I also lead the only correct lynch we had and jailed scum 3 out of 4 times.
So...yeah, good case.

A specific example would be how long you waited to claim. It's

good because it would draw out any scum claims

, and you're teaching the newer players patience and to think for themselves.

But then again, there's obviously a clear scum advantage there

.

So it could be done for either a pro town or pro scum gain - you need to look at it in context at that point and figure out what I was doing it for.
At the core - this is a null tell until you do that.

Another example is

when

you claimed. You kept calling yourself confirmed town and was flaunting it. On the one hand, your Thor. I don't expect anything less. On the other hand, scum would be pretty happy if they were considered confirmed town.

I was confirmed town...so...
And flaunting is a character trait. It clearly isn't a scumtell.

ANOTHER example (that doesn't have to deal with the claim), would be that half the time it seems like you're purposely trying to trip people up by constantly asking loaded questions. Again, I see the IC potential (and the Thor asshole personality), but it could also be used as a way to pin someone as scum.

It could also be taken as scumhunting and trying to force people to think.
Again, it's, at best, a null tell until you look at it in perspective. Was I using it to make people think and to get reads, or was I using it to trip people up and lynch them?

And finally, you pushed the Wray wagon. While you may have actually thought she was scum, I find it hard to believe just because of how incredibly TOWNIE she was. (PEDIT: Damn it Johnny!)

Wray was not incredibly townie in my opinion - and neither was she in the opinion of 2 other town (and, for a while, yourself)
For this to be a scumtell you have to be able to show some sort of evidence that I *did* believe she was incredibly townie....and didn't care.
That would make it very scummy.
Otherwise it's called a difference of opinion (take, for example, me calling Johnny and 2139-048 obv. town - I did so early and did so correctly, and I questioned people who voted them but never used it as a case against anyone...because I understood that just because I saw them as town didn't mean everyone did. Instead I spent time trying to understand *why* people saw them as scum. aka 'scumhunting')

I don't have the time right now to go through 1253 to find the posts, but you should get the idea from these that I think from this game alone Numbers ~should~ understand what everyone else on site means by scumslip.

I'd be happy to return my vote to Mollie as I to think she and Number-guy are both team scum, her comments on thurhame read to me as an attempt at covering for her partner, Thurhame's vote on mollie contained no logic and looked like scum distancing.

I think EPM has flaked, he's posting elsewhere but not here. I don't like the way he tried to stall the Numerical-guy wagon.
I'd happily lynch Telo too, I'm not with the "have a hissy fit if people disagree with me" thing she is doing right now.

[pirate mollie]

@Mollie: to quote or link would be a serious TL;DR, just view his topics and search for scumtell and scumslip.
[opinion] Both are used sufficently for any reasonably intelligent person to realise that there is a difference, and what that difference is [/opinion]

I don't get what you mean by Thurhame being a "safe" player.

I didn't say thurhame was a "safe" player I said their posts were safe. by "safe" I mean they read as neutral as in they were nonconfrontational and they looked pretty careful.

I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I am not opposed to his lynch at all for the reasons I have already given; thurhame stood out to me cos they

didn't

stand out and at some point they should have. they never moved to the center in fact it looks like they were avoiding it. is this making sense now?

[pirate mollie]

Mollie you have been very quiet re NumbersGuy

Why?

cos I don't see where he made a scum slip. I see someone who does not know exactly what a scum slip is which is why I corrected him.

Thats not a reason.

Not a town reason anyway.

lol, just because I disagree with you does not make me scum it means I disagree with you.

buldemar stands out to me more than numbers person.

OK for those who don't see why this is so damning;

Mollie is very vocal; to not say a thing on the subject of Numbers (read: it does not matter the opinion) sitting quietly ignoring it is a major scumtell as it is the most major event in the game not involving her.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie

Numbers lynch is fine they are probably just buddies. Mollie is scum though.

slaandar epeople who make declarative statements in a mafia game with zero evidence. you are going to hurt your cred with my flip.

wrt bold: that is meta analysis and you do not have enough of my meta to make that call. so your case and declarative statement are basically shit.

but here is some meta for you go have at it:

divagreen:

http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=166
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=573
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=643
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=643
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=867
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=980
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1025
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1188
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1235
http://mindromp.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1288

the site is pretty new so there have not been a lot of games on there, I have played a lot more games at talk rational and rational skepticism. mindromp the games do sometimes get more analytical and unless you get tr you won't get the mafia on there. I also play at theorama, freethought forum and I played at rationalia when they had mafia. I have played over 70 timed games but only 4 untimed. so how about you go and read up some games and then come back and tell me what my meta is.

I am new to this site and my hanging back is more of me trying to get used to how you all do things on here and I figured the best way to do that is to watch and observe and not interfere with the process. <------ good town play for someone who is new but it is probably going to take a good town player to figure that out.

[Eleison]

Mollie all of a sudden votes numbe

when numbers is the center of attention.

Either you back up numbers statement and support that we overlook scumslips, or you call him out on his antitown & scummy behavior.

Sorry no home internet, though I found a ramshackle way to connect using my son's laptop while hardwired into my phone and using it like a locked hotspot.

Vote stays on Numbers, but Mollie isn't helping her case. Especially trying to defend herself with meta.

[Eleison]

Edit: mollie has her vote on Shinori. Which is why?

Dunno why i said numbers.

[pirate mollie]

^ holy cow. I am at a point where I could go for an eleison lynch.

eleison I no longer think shinori is super scummy I have my vote on them cos I simply haven't moved it yet.

slaandar in the sherlock holmes game I am playing as danny not divagreen. danny is my mentor's account and he let me have it for that game while he took over someone else's. it would have been awesome if we could have found someone to take over mine but we ran out of time.

[Eleison]

^ holy cow. I am at a point where I could go for an eleison lynch.

eleison I no longer think shinori is super scummy I have my vote on them cos I simply haven't moved it yet.

Then that's called apathy (antitown), or laziness (nulltell).

Because you just admitted to voting for someone you found scummy, but now that you think he is not scummy, you couldn't even unvote him, even you have obviously been here.

Is that why I'm lynchworthy, in your opinion? For pointing out your flaws in logic, your lack of actual voting (as you don't have reads right now I guess?), and calling your "self-defense position by use of off-site meta" a joke?

[theomoaner]

...

I am new to this site and my hanging back is more of me trying to get used to how you all do things on here and I figured the best way to do that is to watch and observe and not interfere with the process. <------ good town play for someone who is new but it is probably going to take a good town player to figure that out...

You're hanging back and observing?
So why are you trying to introduce concepts to the game, and pressure people into adopting them, to the point of suggesting that only scum wouldn't.

triangulation is when 2 players who have town reads on each other start a dialogue comapring their scum/town piles and bring in another player and form a consensus and then vote as block. they do this in order to control the lynch since town usually moves in herds. it is a very effective strategy since town's main way of eliminating scum is through a lynch.

I have only a played few untimed games so not sure if it would work in this format but I would to try it.

I want to triangulate with slandaar cos he is my strongest town right now, he is cutting through the chaff and I don't think scum would go out of their way to help a newb get out of their very wrong reasoning especially a newb that no one seems to like, lol. if he were scum, I would think that he would just let me get lynched instead of encouraging me to think in a different way.

I want to see if he will work with me and then see if we could bring hikari in since he has a town read on him and I like some of hikari's responses.

triangulation is a good strategy and I have noticed that town wins more games when they do this than not.

[dividizzle]

Sorry guys, had some technical difficulties yesterday. I have been set back by the recent replacing and returning. A couple things I think though:

buldemar's claim that any town player (regarding mollie) would have read previous games strikes me strangely. I still don't think I can get behind a Mollie lynch but I could get behind a numbersguy lynch and I agree that could give us a lot of information about Mollie as well.

As for numbers guy, I don't think the 'scumslip' was incredibly telling (as previously stated) but I do think his reaction has been poor, focusing on the issue and continuing to try to talk around it. I feel like town would have acknowledged that something they said was construed as scummy instead of backing into a wall and taking a me vs. them attitude.

Unvote
Vote: 10506670

[pirate mollie]

themoaner do you ever do anything other than cherry pick people's posts and address them out of context? seriously.

I asked slaandar if they triagulated on here. telo asked me what is triangulation. so I explained what it was. there is pressuring people to adopt them, I was

explaining

the cost/benefit/use of the tactic.

I am not just "hanging back" obviously, I am fosing, stirring things up and drawing a lot of attention to myself do you really think that scum would do this? I don't.

the hanging back in

context

is wrt the numbers situ. not the entire game itself.