Micro 45 - Artemis Fowl Game Over

[ProHawk]

Vote:Kmd4390

Needs to loosen up.

Is just a little too serious.

[ProHawk]

Nextly Pro I'm not sure how moving quickly out of rvs is a bad thing. That's what I saw from post 8.

It's a bad thing because we only had one random vote. How are you supposed to judge any reactions from players with one random vote?

My first take on KMD's post was that he was random voting as well with the "serious part" being sarcasm. So while my post was slightly a random vote, now that I look at it, KMD seems a bit eager to jump the gun so to speak. Quick to lay blame, scummy IMO.

Assuming the scum here have any kind of experience, they would know ~

1) not to cover for their partner right out of the gate
2) calling attention to yourself is generally not a safe play right out of the gate

Therefore, kmd being serious about you being scum with shos tells me that either he is slightly inexperienced or he is trying to focus our attention away from where it needs to be, on himself.

[ProHawk]

Why would you rather judge people based on random votes than based on substantive discussion? There's no reason not to move out of RVS as quickly as possible.

I see this is your second game on the site; do you have any other experience playing mafia? (Serious question, I don't mean to be insulting or anything.)

True reactions don't always come from discussion. Reactions come from votes/pressure. But to answer your question, substantive evidence will come from substantive discussion. Regardless, my vote wasn't completely random.

Yes I have other experience playing mafia off-site.

@Mehdi - Off-topic question, any reason why you use the

word

nextly instead of next?

[ProHawk]

Prohawk, reactions to real votes are more valuable than "vote so and so for having a blue avatar". Also, laying serious votes early has kinda been my style for about three years. I rarely random vote anymore. And I fully realize that usually shifts attention towards me. I don't mind because it gets my opinions discussed.

Okay, that's fine. Let's hear your serious opinion of the Mehdi and shos scum team.

[ProHawk]

AAAAAAAaaaand back on computer.

I'm gonna lol at him calling kmd inexperienced xD

look guys, this is page 1, I never expected to find so much content, but I'm getting the feeling that Mehdi is newbtown. clearly isn't so experienced, page one of Day one and already trying to think. slight scumread on prohawk for actually getting a read on kmd from that sole vote. you said that he was 'quick to lay blame'? he posted just one post, which has obviously been a part of RVS no matter what he claims, and for IT you think he's scummy? *that* is quick to lay blame. what YOU did, not what HE did.

UNVOTE: Shamrock
VOTE: ProHawk

You do realize that

you

tried to "jump on the wagon" from my vote on kmd right? Did you miss when I said my vote originally was a random vote but later found merit in it? What exactly did you mean by this post?

VOTE: kmd

caughtttttt

By your incorrect unvote, I have yet to decide if you just forgot who you voted for, or if you are just trying to obfuscate the fact that you had a vote for kmd whom you are now trying to defend.

[ProHawk]

By your incorrect unvote, I have yet to decide if you just forgot who you voted for, or if you are just trying to obfuscate the fact that you had a vote for kmd whom you are now trying to defend.

This is really bad both tonally and substantively.

The idea that shos is trying to "obfuscate" his kmd vote is laughable.

The fact that you're giving yourself wiggle room to attack him on this if other people agree or to back off it if they disagree,

instead of actually attacking him and seeing what his response is in order to read him

, is bad.

The fact that you're waving your arms menacingly going "ooh back off mister or Imma develop a scumread on you too" is terrible.

VOTE: ProHawk

The fact that he claims ignorance is laughable. I have no need to get any "wiggle room", nor do I need to see if other people agree or not with me. If I was playing like that, I would have jumped onto the wagon when Absta and KMD voted for him.

I am slightly confused about your attack on me. What would you have said if I would have straight up called him scum and voted for him? Scum often crack under pressure and make a reactionary retaliation against a vote. I had no reason to make a full-scale attack at that time, therefore I chose to point out the inconsistency in his argument. If that makes me scum, you should reconsider your logic.

Kmd is still my strongest scum read and I have not developed enough evidence to provide reads to turn my vote at the moment.

You yourself stated that you "saw" me on the thread without posting. Aside from the fact that I don't even know how you could see if I was on or not... if you are talking about the names you see at the bottom of the thread that says WHO IS ONLINE: Users browsing this forum. That only tells you I am in the forum, and not necessarily the thread. However, is that even ethical to see when a player is "logged in and viewing" the thread as a basis for evidence? It seems akin to trying to see who is PMing who (if that were even possible)

To set the record straight, I don't open and close, or log in or out of mafiascum. My computer stays open 24/7 and as such I generally just leave the webpage up while I work on other things. So your argument that I am actively lurking does not hold.

So let me ask you a few questions

Shamrock

. What do you think about shos vote for KMD immediately following my vote for him? Do you feel it was an honest mistake that he put your name in his unvote instead of kmd? Also, who has to do the most work during the day, scum or town?

[ProHawk]

If you think he's scum then you should be pushing/questioning him, not making vague implied threats and sounding out support without actually voting.

What threat did I make towards him implied or otherwise? My comment about his mistake was to generate discussion, and I am sorry you don't like my methods, but I have no need to cater to your play style. As I have already stated, the comment was not made in an attempt to accomplish what you claim I needed to accomplish, and I have already provided evidence to support my claim.

I don't care.

This response in and of itself is

intriguing

. "I don't care" is a phrase that shows me you have a closed mind about our whole situation. What I am curious about is why? Are you just wanting to tunnel me the whole day or do you have some sort of connection with shos that we don't know about? Why would you not even care to think about what happened or comment on it?

Having a closed mind is anti-town. If you are tunneling and refuse to consider new evidence you either will be able to be manipulated easily by scum (if you agree with them) or you are scum trying to manipulate the town.

What was the purpose of asking this question?

The purpose of my asking the question may be made apparent after you answer said question. If I state my purpose before you answer, it will skew how you answer the question. It is not a trick question, and is a question of game-theory. It is also straight forward. Between scum and town, who has the most work (scum-hunting, reading the thread, doing analysis, etc...) to do during the day?

@absta101

absta, thoughts on prohawk?

VOTE: Shamrock
Haven't looked at him yet.

Pro, you should vote Shamrock.

Why exactly should I vote Shamrock?

While we currently do not see eye-to-eye, and his attacks on me are unfounded I don't see a need to vote him at this time. I have nothing to hide and do not need to make votes based on emotion.

What I don't understand is your vote hopping without reason or cause. Care to elaborate?

[ProHawk]

@Pro, logic is lovely, but you really over complicating some things. You're making a mountain out of a molehill from a small comment. Beyond that in your first paragraph in 53 your pretty saying the vote at first was to generate discussion which makes you sound hypocritical when you attacked kmd for what at the time looked to also be a way to make discussion.

Over complicating in what way?

If I were ever to have said that I wish to stifle all discussion and then make a post about wanting to contribute to discussion,

that

would be hypocritical. Not once however have I made mention that I wanted to stifle discussion. So because you seem to have missed my reason for voting kmd, I will reiterate.

I believe that he may be scum because right out of the gate, he already has scum partners outlined, before we had even had a chance to get to know everyone. Therefore, I placed my argument. It was in no way attacking him for wanting to contribute to discussion. My attack on him was because of the way he labeled-seriously you and shos as scum.

Alright. Has your read on shos grown stronger/weaker/the same as a result of the discussion your post provoked? What about your read on kmd?

I said "I don't care" because I don't see anything useful emerging from examining the things you mentioned.

I will answer your questions, but would request the same to mine.

Shos continues to show he fails to read the thread carefully, he is playing very recklessly which can be anti-town. At least he is consistent I suppose.

The jury is still out on kmd, we need to see more from him. He makes very short posts without any explanation which leaves much to interpretation which can be dangerous.

So if you don't see anything useful from examining the things I had mentioned, what are major scum-tells in your opinion?

[ProHawk]

I said at the time. You said "My comment about his mistake was to generate discussion" towards voting shos for I'm assuming what was a minor read if it's main purpose was to get discussion. At the same time before that the way you reacted to kmd's early posts that pushed on me and shos was he was scummy for being "quick to lay blame" when it did a similar thing (kmd's quick allegations made discussion and moved rvs out quickly). It's fine for you to vote someone for something minor for discussion purposes, but it isn't fine for kmd to do that (while he might believe the reads now I still don't think it's a good assumption to say that his first fos was a major scum read when it based on three or so posts).

I never voted shos.

I didn't react to kmd's vote as much as his "serious" accusations. I did not vote for kmd for trying to make discussion. He specifically stated his first fos/vote was a major scum read, multiple times.

I will be sure and make a tl;dr for you next time.

[ProHawk]

@ProHawk: I've ignored your question about town vs. scum effort, and I'm also ignoring your question about what I consider the strongest scumtells, because I'm not interested in being dragged into a theory discussion in the midst of a game. (We have a Mafia Discussion forum for that.)

Well, its obvious that you will only play ball with a bit of pressure, and seeing as most here feel you are town we won't get anywhere. Two can play that game.

As many here feel my contributions are of little value, I will not beleaguer my arguments. We need to hear more from a few other people.

Still waiting to hear from ovyo, Robocopter87, and Guy_Named_Riggs...

@Kmd,

I see your point. And that makes sense. I am not ready to say exactly who is scum and who isn't at this point.

UNVOTE: Kmd4390

[ProHawk]

PH, you don't see the difference between not answering a theory question and not answering a question about your scumreads?

When you phrase it like that, yes I see the difference. However, I didn't ask you the question to get some playing advice. There is a method to what I am trying to do. I want to see if what you honestly believe jives with what you are trying to present, but that will have to come later when you are under additional scrutiny.

I am seeing your play as being very cautious and calculated. Too early to tell why yet...

[ProHawk]

I'm down for a little shos killing

Gonna kill nexus first though

Please elaborate.

While I can appreciate a little humor, you are not contributing.

[ProHawk]

@Robo

Pfft fine

So tell me where in here he is town. Because all I see is scum.

Satisfied?

It is bad when it is sole reasoning to disregard present evidence. It is alright when it is mildly used to get an earlygame view on another player.

Pedit: Lynch now, lynch later, whats the difference?

These are two quotes from you that I do not quite understand. The fact is you are taking a very anti-town behavior and seem to be playing alone. Why are you trying to

satisfy

the people who are asking you to explain you line of thought? If you are indeed town, you should be

wanting to help

us, not satisfy us.

Lynch now... or lynch later. If we lynch now we lose eight days of establishing a baseline on the player base, we lose discussion time. I am not sure how much useful information will be put in the updates, but from my experience on here my guess would be little. So which would be more helpful to the town, lynch now or later? Why are you playing against us?

Lynching later is key.

[ProHawk]

@Shamrock

I agree, but the main thing stopping me going "SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM" is that he's already shown a proclivity to discuss theory and this sort of fits with that.

He is still my strongest (only) scumread for now though.

You can continue call me scum all you want, but you are dead wrong. The best part about me knowing my alignment and your frivolous attacks is that I know you are either deliberately trying to get me lynched because you know I am town, or you have a lot of pride in your abilities to find scum which overrides common sense. Allow me to outline the reasons you have stated for your read on myself. And please correct me if I am wrong.

1) I made a post you consider to be bad both tonally and substantively
2) You believe I made a post that would enable me to attack shos should the opportunity arise ("if other people agree or to back off it if they disagree")
3) "Also FTR ProHawk was just looking at the thread and then left without posting anything"

In Response:

1) I don't even understand how this could even be a reliable scum-tell... perhaps you can enlighten me.

2) If that were my intention, I would have had plenty of opportunities to attack shos. Now you may say, "well I diverted your plan by alerting you." However, if you REALLY thought I was scum, and that was my plan all along, wouldn't your argument have been more compelling/accurate had you waited until I made the move and then pointed it out?

For the record, you were wrong about my intentions.

3) This is just a way to try and circumvent the game's mechanics and just wrong, not to mention it doesn't prove anything.

@Robo

@Robo

These are two quotes from you that I do not quite understand. The fact is you are taking a very anti-town behavior and seem to be playing alone. Why are you trying to

satisfy

the people who are asking you to explain you line of thought? If you are indeed town, you should be

wanting to help

us, not satisfy us.

Lynch now... or lynch later. If we lynch now we lose eight days of establishing a baseline on the player base, we lose discussion time. I am not sure how much useful information will be put in the updates, but from my experience on here my guess would be little. So which would be more helpful to the town, lynch now or later? Why are you playing against us?

Lynching later is key.

Just found the scumbuddy

So calling out your scummy posts makes me scum? That makes perfect sense.

I am getting the feeling that you just may be the scum we are looking for. Please respond to my questions, they were not rhetorical.

I may be inexperienced as many of you seem to like to think (most probably due to my lack of games on this forum and new join date), but I have decent experience scum hunting. If you all are honestly experienced, you should understand that scum reads are not as absolute as you are making them out to be. Specifically Robocopter87. If you want to get a reliable read, you need content. You need to be able to see contradictions, feigned play, fake posts. Those will only come with content. So don't try to tell me that I am scum for mentioning the importance of dragging the day out as long as we can. You

are

anti-town for wanting to end early.

Take a look at this contradiction.

Post #107 - "I just found the scum buddy"
Post #109 - ""Lynching sooner is bad" argument. Which is just a massive scumtell to me."
Post #115 - "Prohawk is scummy. But I can see him being town."

So I went from absolute scum buddy, to massive scumtell, to could be town. This all within a short string of posts, none of which had any content from me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Robocopter87

Reason:
Anti-town behavior
Avoiding discussion on personally scummy posts

Robo, after answering the questions I had outlined from your scummy posts, please also enlighten me on how the lynching sooner is bad argument is a massive scumtell.

[ProHawk]

Yeah except you are blatantly misrepping me.

I said you are scum.

I said its possible that you are town. But I didn't say you were town. The point I was conveying was that you are less scummy than shos. Which is why i want shos dead and not you.

Lynching sooner and lynching later, in a game like this it makes no difference. People who say, "Oh we still need some discussion, deadline is far away we should wait it out" are just trying to gain towncred. Town doesn't need to gain towncred. Town needs to find scum. How do we find scum? by gathering information. Best way to gather information? Kill things and watch them flip. Saying we should wait is just a load of BS. It just stalls games.

Any misrepresentation stems from your short, jester filled posts. How can I correctly interpret your posts if you don't explain yourself?

Your statement still does not logically match up. If I

am

scum, then there is no possibility that I

could

be town. Therefore, either you originally did not think I was absolutely scum, or you changed your mind when you said that I could possibly be town. I realize that in almost every post you make some sort of light hearted/joking remark. You are consistent, which is why I did not originally suspect you as scum, however there is just something striking me as odd with how you are hunting. The other problem with that is we won't be able to tell when you are being serious or when you are joking. It also gives you an "out" that would allow you to say that you were joking in the event you made a mistake.

So your strategy is to watch flips and analyze the interactions/votes between players and their alignments? That to me just sounds like a whole ball of WIFOM arguments waiting to happen. I didn't make that post to give myself "town-cred". If I wanted to blend into the town I wouldn't be so argumentative. I made the post because I believe that it would not be in our best interest to follow your advice.

Can I ask you a question then... do you believe that lurking is beneficial to scum? Why/why not?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said I was certain you are scum; in fact, in the post you just quoted, I was expressing uncertainty in my read! If I was 100% convinced you were scum, I would be focusing on convincing other people to vote you rather than on asking you questions.

Which of these do you think is the case?

I'm also less than crazy about your focus on prosecuting "anti-town behavior" rather than scummy behavior.

You are right, my apologies. For some reason I had thought you had said that I was scum, but on looking at your ISO, you never did. Perhaps I was just thinking that you and Robo were echoing sentiments. In that light, neither of my statements about you would be true.

When have you ever been crazy about any of my posts?

Pro context is great. He suspects you a lot. He suspects someone else more. He's saying you could be town to focus on the bigger scum read. Tell me the problem?

The problem, as I outlined was his sure/absolute statement that he posted prior. Why would he need to say that I could be town in order to focus on the bigger scum read? Especially when that scum read is on vacation until Monday and won't be able to provide us with any more information until he returns. Scum-hunting is just that. Hunting for scum. Do you stop hunting if you believe that you have one scum caught when you know there are more? Again, there is nothing more to focus on shos (at least until he returns).

[ProHawk]

Post #107 -"Scum-buddy" Sounds pretty absolute to me. However, Robo claims it isn't and he would know best.

@ Robo,

I know you at least read my walls...

Just so we are clear, ending the day early gives scum a by. It allows them to post less in terms of no-fluff posts. In my eyes, its pretty close to allowing them to actively lurk without the risk of getting caught.

[ProHawk]

Just so we are clear, because you lack the ability to read between the lines.

Its not about reading between the lines. Its about the grey area you are leaving to interpretation.

[ProHawk]

Concerning ProHawk: Shitty attack on shos. Wishy-washiness in reads, casting around for support before committing to an attack. Focus on pointing out anti-town behavior instead of scummy behavior. A few "look at me I'm town" posts. A few phrasings that seemed off to me.

I would love to see some evidence to go with your claims. Also, what is really off about you is your lack of scum reads on anyone else aside from the fact that there has been plenty of scummy behavior floating around. I will echo this sentiment again, you are playing very cautiously.

You are a smart guy, you should be able to figure it out.

I can go uber blunt with you, but I'll guarantee that you'll get mad at me for treating you like a child.

I expect you to be uber blunt. Quit hiding behind your sarcasm and personal attacks. If you do not, you will continue to be misrepresented.

[ProHawk]

I'll admit the more I talk to him the less scum and more misdirected town I think he is.

Come one pro, get your head out of the sand and look at the last post that shos made.

Tell me where you see town.

I'm not going to lie, shos is digging a hole for himself. Going V/LA and then hopping on just to make a vote on the person who is attacking you the most... However, I have lynched too many townies that play poorly like shos is doing. Call it a hunch, but I don't think his flip would give us the most information.

Perhaps my problem is that I view everyone as scum until they prove otherwise. I wholeheartedly subscribe to the philosophy that everyone is guilty until proven innocent in this game. I am not ready to say I honestly see town anywhere at the moment.

@Mehdi

I don't mind you being blunt, in fact I would recommend it. Robo being an unviable lynch may or may not be true, we still have six days of discussion and a lot can happen in that time. I personally believe that he is scum, you do not agree. Fine. He may be responding to me, but he has yet to convince me.

[ProHawk]

First paragraph, well scummy players should die. And it's not a poor player thing since shos has played fine in other games.

Second paragraph, innocent til guilty is both the legal system and it actually makes things such as PoE and relations a lot easier to look at when you're willing to have town reads.

Three, your going to need to debate something that isn't semantics or a stretched case to possibly convince me (and likely anyone else).

Scummy players that are town should die? Where is the distinction on this?

Ok Medhi, lets put some of your advice to use.

Your vote on GNR seems to be based on the fact that he isn't playing. Lets hear your case of your scum read.

[ProHawk]

A pro/robo team is one of the least likely teams there is (I doubt they'd fake this argument this well).

Pro yes scummy town can die (although all reads are from different perspectives). Until they die I won't know whether they're town or scum so this argument if they're town that I lead on is just dumb,

And I explained gnr already. It's PoE since I think most of the active people are town this game.

But you have two less active players. GNR and Mala. Why GNR over Mala?

[ProHawk]

I explained that too. Slight town vibes from mala based on her first post and resemblance it had to her play in a game I recently finished with her.

Reading my posts again might help you.

You're right, your arguments are just about as convincing as mine.

[ProHawk]

Hey you're using sarcasm. You must be scum. You are hiding something you evil person you.

Now can you see why the whole robo used sarcasm argument is really dumb (and then a lot of pointless semantics). My reads may not be long cases, but they explain the main point generally.

Haha.

Its not really the basis of my argument, but we still have a while to collect evidence. Scum will show themselves from now to then.

[ProHawk]

I am beginning to see the logic in your reasoning Mehdi. Guy_Named_Riggs, you are not helping us flush out scum, if you are to be replaced due to real life issues so it shall be, but until then...

UNVOTE: Robocopter87
VOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

Reason: Lurking, handing the game over to scum.

[ProHawk]

I will work on it. For now, he needs some pressure to talk, if he is replaced out then his lurking wasn't scummy. If he starts posting, he will need to prove himself.

[ProHawk]

Sorry for not posting at all
Will catch up when I get around to this game. I have a lot of other stuff to get done

This makes me feel so much better. I look forward to some actual content from you...

[ProHawk]

I understand that people have lives, but honestly, this game does NOT take a whole lot of time. You are correct, being inactive isn't alignment indicative. However, if you sign up to play a game there is a small deal of time commitment. If you are too busy, ask for replacement. If you aren't take some time to play the game.

I will not let him float by on Day 1 for whatever reason.

[ProHawk]

And what has he contributed in these five days?

[ProHawk]

I didn't really defend him. I just pointed out his meta is basically the same as scum/town.

His meta may or may not be worth anything, however the fact that he is not posting anything we can get a read on is why he needs to go.

[ProHawk]

What if shos flips town? What does that say for Mala?

[ProHawk]

I feel that a GNR lynch would be more beneficial than lynching shos. Why are we pushing in that direction?

[ProHawk]

We know that shos will talk, if GNR hasn't just quit playing then putting him at L-1 should yield more results than putting shos at L-1. If we keep going this direction GNR will continue to play under the radar.

[ProHawk]

My issue, however, was with the way prohawk put that. It doesn't look like a mentality of looking for scum. It looks like just finding the best way to pressure people into posting.

Don't get me wrong. Seeing Guy start posting would be great. I just don't think it's going to happen though and I have a much stronger scum read on shos.

You are absolutely correct KMD, my vote is to make him talk. However, it

is

of a mentality of looking for scum and here is why.

Medhi put it best with evidence to back up his claim. If the town allows scum to lurk, then they will have an easy victory. Although there is a higher probability of GNR being town than scum based solely on the ratio of town to scum, in the event he is scum - keeping him alive is more dangerous than lynching him. Therefore I believe that it is in our best interest to lynch him today unless he starts posting and contributing, or unless he gets replaced out. If he is town (and actually wants town to win) he will start talking or replace out if his lurking is due to RL issues. If he is scum, he would either maintain the lurking (which will happen if we lynch shos) or start talking to avoid being lynched.

Prohawk, do you even think guy is scum or are you just trying to make him talk? Id rather lynch scum than pressure a perrenial lurker into not lurking. It's like trying to teach a dog to meow.

There is no way any of us can have any evidence that GNR is scum, or town for that matter because he doesn't have any content. Robo put it best that inactivity is not indicative of alignment. So, no I am not voting for him because I feel like he is scum, but I do feel that he could be scum. I don't necessarily see your analogy to teaching a dog to meow... however I would be willing to bet that if he were lynched D1 on every game he lurked, he would either quit playing, or fix the behavior.

We definitely can't let him just lurk his way into endgame.

Shamrock, I would even go so far as to say we cannot let him lurk into the end of Day 1, not just endgame. If we allow him to lurk past Day 1, or Day 2 and he is scum, we end up searching for scum where scum do not exist. We will find things to argue and place blame amongst fellow townies.

[ProHawk]

Lynching shos right now will do nothing to help us with the GNR situation. We will still have zero information on him. Shos is a viable lynch today, sure but we still have four days to make the decision. We need to pressure GNR into doing

something

.

[ProHawk]

Only scum would drop the hammer (if he was town), and even then it would be foolish/easy to catch them for it.

Robo, we gain nothing from lynching him any-day according to your reasoning. So we can either start the game fresh with "nothing" or we can start day 3, or day 4 with nothing. See, the real problem is if we wait to lynch him and he maintains the lurking status, you will say... "Hey guys, look at all this information we got from this flip. Lets attack person X because of A, B, and C." So Day 2 we will follow a different hunt based off of information from the flip while continuing to forget about/put off GNR's lurking because we keep having supposed scummier targets. Its better to get him out of the way now than wait. Its not stupid, its the smart move.

Just so we are clear, I am not advocating his lynch unless he continues to lurk and fails to replace out.

Also, how can you say shos is scummier? You haven't been able to get a read on GNR.

@Shamrock, if you honestly want GNR to talk, your unvote isn't showing it.

[ProHawk]

Ok, just curious then, what was your rationale for the unvote?

[ProHawk]

I guess I could see that, you have seen more than I have.

[ProHawk]

You need to start explaining your thought process absta.

Do NOT end the day until GNR gets replaced or posts.

[ProHawk]

Shos, what do you mean by the only one left? Could you clarify please?

[ProHawk]

Prohawk, I know I'm responding to something at the beginning of last page, but on Guy and lynching him day 1 of every game, that just describes a policy lynch. I don't want to policy lynch in a micro. We only have so many lynches to work with. If we lynch Guy, it's going to be because we think he's scum. What I CAN say with confidence, however, is that you (prohawk) and Guy are NOT scum TOGETHER. This is because if you are scum, you are pushing policy in a way no half decent scum would on their buddy.

I am not saying to lynch him right now, unless we can confirm that he is truely employing a strategy of lurking. What I am saying is we need to corner him into revealing his true intentions this game. Is there a good chance he is town? Yes. But there is also a chance he could be scum. My point is if he is lurking as scum, and we ignore him, we will never catch him by player analysis.

Medhi has provided meta based information that shows Guy has at least employed this tactic once (and won I might add). This drastically increases the possibility that Guy is scum.

[ProHawk]

Do you honestly think that threatening to lynch someone but also simultaneously saying that you won't lynch the person is going to make that person respond any faster?

Simply asking him to post will suffice.

Do you honestly believe someone using lurking as a tactic would just reply if simply asked?

[ProHawk]

@Robo

Paranoid or not, call it what you want. I am covering our bases to make sure scum doesn't slip through the cracks.

[ProHawk]

309-311 IMO all seem like two scum-comrades bickering at each other.

All three of them feel fake.

[ProHawk]

UNVOTE: Guy_Named_Riggs

I will need to take some time to gather the evidence presented before I make my decision.

@Shos, does your role say you are the only one left or not?

[ProHawk]

VOTE: shos

Aside from the slew of scummy posts, his reveal directly conflicts information I have in my role. I will have to defer to you all on if this evidence has any merit as I am not experienced enough to know if we can base conflicting flavor as being a made up role reveal.

[ProHawk]

The only thing I will say shos, is that I can confirm that you are not the only one alive in LEPretrieval.

[ProHawk]

It does not say that I am the only one alive, it says that I am the only one that butler fif not take out so far. I have completely losy my believe in my english knowledge of the meaning of 'take out' by now because of you.

are you saying that you are a member too?

Again, you being the only one that Butler did not take out from the LEPretrieval still does not jive with my flavor, nor with the opening flavor of the game. However, I specifically asked you to clarify in Post #332 - Your response in #333 was a definate "Yep" with an annoyed "I've already said that". If you ever have doubts on definitions, it would be wise to clarify from Nexus.

If this were the only evidence against you, I would say, sure its probably not enough to go on. However, you have been jumping at almost every opportunity to side with those who have been neutral/positive to you and against those who have been attacking you. Medhi was astute in pointing out your reads changed based on what players thought of you in Post #261. You just seem to be playing the role of scum, and this is just supporting evidence.

[ProHawk]

@Absta & Chaos - Care to provide any reasoning behind your votes, or are we starting a RVS again?

[ProHawk]

A vote without reason is a random vote, its the definition of a random vote. If they have a reason, then lets hear it.

[ProHawk]

@ absta

When you see my role flip, the CC will make sense. I don't know if Nexus intentionally made the contradiction, or if shos just read it wrong. Either way, we won't know as we don't get to see the card.

[ProHawk]

Honestly, I wanted to vote ProHawk over CO, but with the two current unexplained votes I decided to hesitate.

This doesn't make very much sense to me. If you wanted to not put me at L-1 so I wasn't hammered, that would be one thing, but you didn't want to vote because of two unexplained votes? Explain.

I'm not voting Absta because I'm willing to bet that either CO/ProHawk have a higher chance at flipping scum than Absta at this point.

I can see a scum-ProHawk killing Mehdi because Mehdi was defending hard against a town-Robo rather than killing due to a possible role.
ProHawk straight up countered Shos flavor, so why was he not killed over Mehdi?
^ The same could be applied to why wasn't I killed over Mehdi either due to my soft-claim. The scum either smelt a trap there which I'll admit I tried planting or they see me as an easy lynch in D2.

You aren't voting anyone. Your analysis of the night kill is exactly what scum play towards because it creates false leads under fallacious reasoning. Why would I have been killed for countering Shos flavor when scum could just use that against me D2? Also, why would I have killed Mehdi if I were scum? Her last post had me read as town. Its funny that you feel like you would be an easy lynch in D2 when not one person is coming after you.

I think you should stop chilling out on the fence and take a stance. If you think I am scum, place your vote. If you think CO is scum, then vote for him. Making persuasive attacks so that others can sheep in is what scum do, it makes voting analysis more difficult when you don't vote.

[ProHawk]

Ugg, you're right, scratch that last paragraph, but my responses should still remain the same.

[ProHawk]

I was working on reading ISO's, trying to come up with scum based on day interactions and I ran into a road block with the GNR/ChaosOmega slot.

Spoiler: Chaos' Relative Posts

Top scumreads are shos and Prohawk. However, they're almost definitely not scum together with that flavor CC.

I'm inclined to think absta is town, just because I don't see him attacking everyone as mafia. I think scum would try and ingratiate themselves a bit more with everyone and try to fit in as opposed to drawing a lot of attention from other players.

I played in a Newbie that Mala played in before, and I remember her posting to be similar, in that it's hard to read and not very useful.

Everyone else ranges from null to town, at least for today.

And I'm fine with a shos hammer if no one else has anything to say.

Two Scum-Reads - No Vote. He is fine with the shos hammer, but doesn't want to be the one to do it?

I, as a mafia player, am much better player when I'm scum than town. This game, I've been in like L-1 since like page 1, haven't been in the game for liek 10 pages, and then am not even trying to protect myself against my lynch since well, lynching a VT isn't that harmful, and there will be plenty of info after me dead. If I were scum, you would see a very, very different shos."

Well that's a load of bullshit. Then why wouldn't you just play like shit all the time and use that excuse?

Also, why do you have Prohawk as town when he has flavor in his role directly contradictory to yours?

Chaos, sup? On first sight the Prohawk slot looks bad but I honestly think that it is a personality thing. Prohawk has a thing for being overlogical.

Hey, someone from Steam Madness I liked playing with. Not too many of those.

I'm not one for meta, but I'll do a cursory glance of his later just to make sure his posting style is consistent. Part of the reason for my scumread on him was that his posts just felt long-winded, like he was forcing content to appear pro-town.

Again, another post with soft-opinions, but no real action.

If scum decided to play one on and one off the wagon, between Mala, Shamrock, and CO, I am pretty confident that CO is the one off.

VOTE: ChaosOmega @ L-1

Reason:
Avoided voting Day 1 - Fence-sitting
Scum off the town lynch

CO - Still waiting on an explanation of your first D2 Post.

[ProHawk]

He was at L-1 when I replaced in with Mehdi's intent to hammer. No reason to cut off discussion right there. And why is it a big deal that I didn't hammer? I made known I wanted him lynched.

K. What type of action would you prefer? I can get my cape, run around the town, make some swooshing noises and fight some crime, would that be good for action?

Ok, I see your point. I had thought that Medhi's intent to hammer post was after you had posted that, but re-reading it you are correct by one post. And since you obviously don't like the apologetic type, I will withhold any from you.

Scum off the town lynch

K. Unless of course they both were, and then that reason's right out.

Based on how the votes turned out, our best probability at finding scum is to view them as one on and one off the lynch. Both on the lynch is a higher probability than both off the lynch, however as both could be possible, the highest probability lies with one on and one off.

For you to ask if it is ethical implies you think it's cheating. That viewpoint strikes me as more scum than town.

Yes, I do think it's cheating to circumvent the mechanics of the game. I am sorry that you would be more inclined to allow cheating if it would be beneficial to your side, but regardless if I were scum or town it just makes the game that less fun.

Multiple attempts to start a theory discussion. Looks like an attempt to make posts that look pro-town but have no useful information or merit on the game, i.e., active lurking.

Those questions would have had a point had they been answered, but not one wanted to pressure Shamrock and he decided not to answer them, so point was unable to be made. It was all asked in order to see if Shamrock honestly believed what he was saying or was just fluffing. Call it how you see it, but trying to make myself look pro-town has not been my intent at all this game. I know how to blend in when I need to, and now is not the time.

I'm aware that the time difference is a bit off, but you seem to understand the benefit of prolonging the lynch. When you do it, it's to provide discussion time to help town, but when I do it, I'm fence-sitting and my posts are action-less. Why the double-standard?

Time difference made a bit of a difference. When the hammer on shos was suggested there were around four days if I recall correctly, while your post was around a day or so early. Not a double-standard, the day has to end sometime or there's a no-lynch. Also I didn't realize that the intent to hammer had been thrown pre-your post and I retract my statement about fence-sitting.

Something else, you seem to apologize a lot.

This could be more that you're just polite in general than anything, but scum have a tactical reason to apologize to players, town really doesn't.

You seem to swear a lot. Should we get into a correlational discussion about scum and their propensity to be easily agitated under pressure?

Keep it coming CO, we need a lot more content from you.

[ProHawk]

#451 and #452 is a very interesting exchange. Robo stated in #450 that he wanted Absta dead, #451 was a wait until count to vote, #452 was an Absta vote on Robo.

Very strategic move by Absta to avoid being placed at L-1 by Robo as it seemed to effectively deter Robo from following through with his threat in an attempt to avoid looking like he was retaliating the attack.

I am going to lean towards Absta being scum for the pre-emptive attack. The problem with his playstyle in having attacked the majority of the players is there is no way to firmly analyze his interaction with players if he flops on them all.

TBH, I also think this here is a scum-slip while he was trying to push associations.

Would scum Prohawk CC town Shos? No.

Hawk CCd town, that's enough to remove his town read.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Absta101 - @L-1

Reason: Contradictory statement while making associations.
Scummy voting tendency

[ProHawk]

It seems Absta is calling your bluff Robo.

Anyone else feel like Absta needs to claim?

[ProHawk]

Thats fine.

I am Captain Trouble Kelp, a Vanilla Townie.

[ProHawk]

Shamrock, you're next (please excuse my ignorance of proper protocol).

I will get to my reads in a bit, after I finish an exam today.

[ProHawk]

Hey guys, I apologize that my day has been crazy busy. I can't sit down to make a proper post with my reads until tomorrow, just a heads up.

[ProHawk]

But wait. We have lynching wagons too:
Shos (5-LYNCH): kmd4390,

Robocopter87

, ProHawk,

absta101, Mehdi2277

^I've been on the site for four years and have seen exactly one Day 1 mislynch that didn't contain scum on the wagon and that lynch happened on Page 1. I know myself to be town, so Prohawk is scum here. Almost 100% guaranteed.

absta101 (4-LYNCH): Shamrock, kmd4390, ProHawk, Robocopter87
^Day 2. There's Prohawk again. Although I admit this day leans more towards Chaos as a buddy with Shamrock on the wagon with Prohawk (DGB always says scum won't put all their eggs in one basket) and Chaos with his vote sitting without any danger on Prohawk. However, Prohawk's Day 1 GNR vote looks so much like scum going after town and I find that to be a stronger tell than this one.

Either way, this is the equation I'm seeing:
Prohawk+X=TheScumTeam

KMD, in answer to your question. The reason being is that lynching me would end the game.

Now for my scum reads, thank you for the detailed analysis to help me see this one by the way. Take a look at the first Shos lynch.

I think its an interesting plan by scum to have killed off the majority of the players on the first lynching squad except two. Myself and KMD. Your explanation of the D1 wagon smells like you had this planned to me.

If I was scum on a wagon, there is no way I would have killed off the townies if I were on the wagon, it would be self incriminating should town decide to lynch from that pool and there were few people remaining that hadn't flipped town. I don't think it would be a good strategy, UNLESS I wanted to use it as a "stronger tell" argument to get a townie lynched. You are so sure that this is fact, that you have it almost 100% guaranteed. So, if I am not scum, then likewise

you

must be scum. Again, I think that after absta was lynched, you saw an opportunity to kill Robo, thereby giving you this final argument to present in LYLO.

The fact that Robo was the last kill, being the third to last person on the shos wagon, which left only two people on the wagon, and then argument was presented by one of the two on the wagon that could incriminate the other by lying about his alignment suggests to me that you are indeed correct that almost 100% guaranteed scum was on the wagon and you are him.

---------------------------------------------------------------

My second scum read is on Shamrock.

At the beginning of the game, I had noted his play as seeming calculated and cautious. His Day 2 play was lack-luster as well, with a few arguments to try and throw doubt into Mala's claim, and then asking for a hammer, and discrediting absta's claim.

I am going to guess a KMD/Shamrock scum team, however KMD is for sure scum.

[ProHawk]

Does anyone else feel like its a stretch? I don't.

[ProHawk]

I personally think you and your scumbuddy didn't think to look at the wagon and killed robo out of fear that he'd lead the town to a lynch on scum. And now that I look back at robo's ISO at the end of Day 2, I'm pretty sure he'd have come after you and/or chaos. So if a robo kill was an attempt to set you up, it's a pretty piss poor attempt because they could have just left robo alive and let him come after you.

I am not that dumb, especially considering my first game I played on site I was scum and made a similar mistake of lynching town on the wagon I was on, although not quite as drastic as what you are trying to do, it led to problems. I know how to learn from my mistakes. Post #301 from Newbie 1262 was what I learned from night killing a townie on the wagon, so I am very aware of what happens with wagon analysis.

This was Robo's only post about me Day 2, and if I recall correctly, his Day 1 posts were off and on, but I know he did place me in his town list a few times.

I retract my statement about wanting CO dead.

Due to abstas last post, I want him dead very much so.

Prohawk continues to be a hard read due to the fact that I don't know if he is inexperienced or just overlogical or what he is. Leaning scummy though, especially the part about the swearing.

I don't know about you, but I honestly don't find it the least bit threatening. Leaning scummy? I have been accused of much worse by more people than Robo. If I wanted to kill anyone that was threatening me it would have been Chaos.

And yes, you intentionally implicated yourself because it was the only way for you to build a strong case to implicate me as scum. If you would have left Robo, then it would not have been so cut and dry with three people on the wagon. You couldn't have your scumbuddy make the case because he wouldn't be able to vouch for your alignment. Therefore, implicating yourself would be the only way to pull it off.

[ProHawk]

It becomes a 50/50. No scum wants to be in a 50/50 in LYLO.

Exactly what I said/was trying to say, which is why I think its odd that you accuse me of scum, and how I came up with your ploy.

[ProHawk]

Why are we the only two bantering back and forth? Where did everyone else go?

[ProHawk]

Except that would have drawn so much attention to yourself, since I've been attacking you since I replaced in. With the way Robo was pushing lynches and how he started to have a change of heart on you D2, it makes perfect sense for you to kill him.

Its a mute point because I didn't kill anyone.

Re: Shamrock,

After reading over Robo's ISO from D2 he mentioned willing to lynch mala, absta, CO, he wanted to hear more from kmd, said I leaned toward the scum side, but failed to mention Shamrock. It is possible that he used his role on Medhi Night 1 which might have explained why he said he missed him. However, there is also a good chance he used his role on Shamrock and got a town read which would explain why he left him out of discussion.

So I would consider a KMD/CO scum team.

KMD is def. part of the team.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KMD

[ProHawk]

If Chaos is scum, he won't hammer you yet.

[ProHawk]

He wouldn't because you and him are the scum team. He will come back to vote me and then it will be back to me vs. you to have Shamrock break the tie.

[ProHawk]

Hm. Pro wondering why you just sheeped my reads on Sham/KMD. I made the comment about Robo a few posts later you did the same. >.>

I had just examined what you had said about Robo, and indeed you are correct. You wanting to vote KMD for asking for flavor and my voting for KMD due to wagon analysis are completely different and not sheeping. You sure are all over the place.

[ProHawk]

So shamrock didn't hammer. If he was scum, he could have won the game with a hammer. That makes him confirmed town (unless you believe it's me and him as scum). So unless mala has me fooled, the scum team is prohawk/chaos. Because of this, I will support a lynch on either one of them.

While I agree that he is more than likely confirmed town, you could still have been scum with Chaos. I would also support a Chaos lynch, however you are much safer of a choice to allow us to go into MYLO. The fact that you didn't get hammered when you were at L-1, or L-2 only bolsters my suspicion.

[ProHawk]

I am honestly not sure what we are all waiting for... it has been almost a whole day since we have had one vote on myself, and KMD. This fact only suggests that either one of us are scum because if both of us were town we would have been hammered by now. I have already made my arguments as to why KMD is scum and needs to be lynched in order for us to win. The rest of you need to make your decision unless there are other things to discuss, but by the stagnated thread, my guess is that we don't.

[ProHawk]

Or means both of you are scum

I suppose that could be a possibility, but what would be use of us bussing eachother in order to drag the game out by having the other lynched? It would be a really dumb gambit on our part. Either KMD or I should be the lynch target today because there is essentially a 50/50 chance one of us is scum.

[ProHawk]

My vote is also on CO/KMD team, but I think we have a higher probability of scum lynching KMD first.

[ProHawk]

I have already stated my opinion, what we need is Shamrock to make the decision. He is the most undecided out of us all, and the most likely to be town.

[ProHawk]

Pretty sure that CO is the last scum, but I will need a little time to run probabilities just to be sure.

[ProHawk]

I would like to hear from Chaos Omega. GO!

[ProHawk]

I think it would be wise to all lay our cases out on the table. I would like CO to begin.

[ProHawk]

Would it even be worth it to allow CO replace out? I can't believe he has put us in this situation. I am having a hard time sorting through all the WIFOM with his 11 total game posts. Lets just get this over with.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Chaos Omega

Sham, if you shmeckledorfed me then good game and I blame CO's lack of participation.

[ProHawk]

Glad to know you didn't just give up on us...

D1 - GNR was replaced. I wanted to lynch him if he was lurking, if he just wasn't able to play anymore and would be replaced, then I was fine allowing his replacement to take over. Read post #300 for my reasoning, as well as take note of the proximity of Nexus' announcement of the GNR replacement and my unvote post. I really thought there was something to the counter claim of his role and mine, as I was his brother (Capt Trouble Kelp) and he claimed to be the only one left. I don't know if he just interpreted the flavor wrong, or if it really said that, we won't know as we don't get to see the flavor.

Re: Absta claim, yes I wanted him to claim. If I didn't I wouldn't have put him at L-1.

Shamrock is def town because he didn't just now lynch you for the win. My read changed for a couple reasons, the first I stated in #536 which was Mala's find originally, and the second was when Shamrock didn't just lynch kmd to gain cred when he could have easily done so.

[ProHawk]

Shamrock, this is up to you please make your final decision so we can wrap this up.

[ProHawk]

Good game all. Thanks Nexus!

KMD, just curious if I caught onto your plan when you killed Robo or if it was just coincidence? Glad to know that Robo did actually target Shamrock.

[ProHawk]

haha, was going to ask you about that one Robo...

Did you read his (kmd's) D3 argument when he was trying to lynch me? His argument was probably super apparent to me because I knew my alignment, but I thought it was pretty telling...

[ProHawk]

Duly noted Robo, but if you're curious you should check it out.

I will take that into consideration shos. You live & learn. This was my second game on MS and the first with flavor

[ProHawk]

I would love to see if your reasoning is correct mala, hopefully kmd decides to post the scum QT?