Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[buldermar]

Maybe if we get to MYLO and we're going to loose anyway then taking out one of them would be an option, until then I won't be joining a mason wagon.

That's the worst option. Either we lynch one of them now and adjust accordingly, or we go by the assumption that they're Masons. If we lynch one of them later, we're effectively only postponing getting information that could have been used to optimize odds of lynching scums before (regardless of whether or not they're scum). This is part of the reason why I think we need to seriously consider this now or, alternatively, go by the assumption that they're Masons.

[buldermar]

Stop derping.

Start voting Hikari.

Why?

Fuck it new plan, Hikari wagon.

What changed?

Yeah you're scum.

Nice.

How do you assert that from this post?

Says the scum.

What is your incentive of this post?

[Hiraki]

We are not lynching a mason.

TBM has ALWAYS been suspicious of me. He's been asking me questions ever since he arrived.

[dividizzle]

I think what he is saying is that at this point, not lynching a mason is tantamount to explicitly believing them. I don't want to lynch one, I'm just saying that seems to be the implication. I'll admit I never fully understood the reasons given as to why mafia wouldn't want to fake a mason claim. At the time it seemed as if people thought that would be a crazy idea but I didn't see it. However, I agree that Smash has seemed very town. I apologize for being busy. I have two essays due today and it's homecoming weekend but I should be around in general.

[mykonian]

votecount

maenara (4): hiraki, NJAC, theomoaner, combinatorialEnigma
combinatorialEnigma (3): jun, eleison, smashbard
jun (2): 10506670, dividizzle
dividizzle (1): maenara
hiraki (1): Thebuttonmen

not voting (1): buldermar

With 12 players it is 7 to lynch (6 to no lynch)

deadline is on the 27th of oktober

[Jun]

Regardless of how much Buldermar is trying to talk us out of it.

When did I try to talk anyone out of anything or into anything today?

You tried to talk everyone out of a CE lynch because, as you claim, he is only joking. Defend him harder pls.

Since cult has been ruled out, I still feel like we should lynch CE. Like someone said, he's trying to make a joke and make light of a very serious scumslip he had earlier. I would suspect that buldermar is scum with CE due to defending him in #1225 by emphasizing how CE's behavior was just a joke. So antitown to have scum knowledge about what I would flip and joke about it like CE did. Why are we not lynching him!!!!? What does a maenara lynch tell us?

A CE lynch hits the most probable scum AND tells us if buldermar is also likely to be scum or not.

Jun, please start thinking before you post.

Also please stop belittling me. It's not sportsmanlike behavior.

Alright Jun. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Read, and read closely:

I only claimed that the hat incident was a joke.

Provide a quote in which I explicitly tried to talk everyone (or just anyone) out of a CE lynch or otherwise claimed that his alignment is town.

You state that I defended him in #1225 by emphasizing how his behavior was just a joke. I disagree - I merely claimed that the hat incident is a joke and not a scumslip, but this is not equivalent to suggesting that he is town. I've not commented on his alignment or suggested that he should not be lynched. My emphasis has been on the manner in which Maenara tried to get him banned.

A CE lynch does not "tell us" if I am scum or not, because I'm in no way tied to the alignment of CE.


I

will

ignore you or display condescending behavior should you continue with your outrageous accusations and fallacious conclusions.

I have half a mind to ask for a replacement after the rude behavior of Buldermar and CE towards me. I ask you kindly yet firmly to please check your behavior because things you have done have made this game just not fun for me.

I'm going to be v/la for the weekend. I do not want to lynch a mason, and I think Buldermar is definitely scum for trying to push us to do that. I want either CE or Buldermar lynched today, but will not be able to check back until Monday.

[Maenara]

...

You know what? I'll go along with Buldermar's lynch-a-mason suggestion. Things in this game just don't add up the way they oughta, and neither Smashbard or Eleison

feel

town - Smash did early on, but it has deteriorated today. Jun has gone too muddled for me to know if he's scum, and CE's antics have messed up any chance of getting him dead too. Nobody seems to be willing to go along with Dividizzle, and so it's pretty much the only option left.

Please note that I'm not sheeping Buldermar on this on, and that I take full responsibility for the suggestion, as well as whatever fallout may occur, should it go through and end in a town-flip.

[Maenara]

Not voting before we decide on which mason to lynch first, though.

[combinatorialEnigma]

I'm sorry Jun, I did forget to check my behavior. I left my behavior in the oven too long and it got burned.

[NJAC]

I was also going to suggest something like buldermar just suggested (that's why I asked nearly everyone their thoughts about the masons), but I didn't because my first impression was that it was a bad idea. Now I considered it again and it makes sense at some degree. I mean: we need more info to remove all the WIFOM we've got here, if PRs have not claimed they have their reasons (maybe they haven't got any definite info) and Smash insisting in their claim is bad, Eleison has done nothing, and having a confirmed mason (in case the lynchee flips so) instead of two wifomish unconfirmed, looks better.

I think lynching one of them pays the risk, we can mislynch anyway and will be still in mylo with no info (unless scums NK one of them). If we agree about advocating a "mason" lynch I think Eleison would be our lynch, but we still need to take our time, start pressing more, and in general scumhunt a lot.

I see buldermar hasn't gave up and that's good. Also:

@Smash: is you're a true mason please don't give up because we've mislynched, and be more confident about yourself because I agree with Theo here that Eleison isn't exactly the "godlike scum catcher".

@Eleison: you really need to give us more...

More incoming...

[theomoaner]

I think lynching one of them pays the risk...

In what way?

What info are you going to gain if the lynchee proves to be town, other than not to lynch the other one at MYLO? And is that info worth another mislynch?

[Maenara]

Frankly? Yes. Yes, it is worth lynch.

[theomoaner]

Ah, I stand corrected then by the immense weight of your.... what's the word.... logic? no not quite... erm.... argument, no not that didn't see one of them.

Maenara, all you said there was "lets lynch a mason because they're not me.

...
You know what? I'll go along with Buldermar's lynch-a-mason suggestion. Things in this game just don't add up the way they oughta, and neither Smashbard or Eleison

feel

town - Smash did early on, but it has deteriorated today. Jun has gone too muddled for me to know if he's scum, and CE's antics have messed up any chance of getting him dead too. Nobody seems to be willing to go along with Dividizzle, and so it's pretty much the only option left.

Please note that I'm not sheeping Buldermar on this on, and that I take full responsibility for the suggestion, as well as whatever fallout may occur, should it go through and end in a town-flip.

So your going to lynch a claimed mason because jun, CE and Dividizzle are not targets, Mmmm, last time I looked there were (excluding them, the masons and yourself) six other players in the game, any opinion about them, or is that it, Dividizzle, Jun, CE or anyone you can get lynched without all the complicated effort of trying to build a case on them?

It would also be nice if you were to answer my question from #1221.

[Maenara]

Get off your high horse before you fall off. I forgot to answer because of a certain lil' incident with a certain lil' video.

Me wanting him dead means I - based on what information I have at the moment - reckon he'd be a fine lynch on another day.

And yeah, I do have opinions on the rest of y'all. TBM asks questions that need to be asked, so he lives. Hiraki is too apathetic to say much of anything, so he's too shaky to lynch at the moment. Numbers is a null-read 'cause he ain't saying much of anything. Got a sorta townie read on NJAC after my skirmish with him. Buldermar is Credit To Team, and needs to stay alive if only because he's one o' the few people I can see making sense around here. And you? Eh, you dig and you contribute. If you're town, we need to keep you around, and if you're scum, it'll be more clear when more things have happened.

There.

And concerning lynching the 'masons' - If they really are masons, the mafia ain't gonna shoot them tonight when they didn't last night. We'll be heading into MyLo with two huge piles of WIFOM. And they're tied to each other, which means we get to know the alignment of more folks. If one flips scum, we've nailed two, and if he flips mason instead, well, the mafia can choose between letting us have a confirmed townie and having no chance of hitting a power role.

How's that for a deal?

[NJAC]

Yeah, I must recognize I agree in this with Maenara.

@Theo: what is it so bad to lynch one of them?

@Hiraki: why are not we lynching one of them?

[dividizzle]

I guess Maenara just kind of answered the question I was about to ask but if we lynched a mason and he flipped town, then wouldn't scum surely kill the other one? Thus, we would still not have any confirmed town players. If we choose to lynch a mason it should be because there is legitimate reason to believe they lied and not because we think one confirmed townie will benefit us.

[Maenara]

There is a legitimate reason to believe they lied. This is Mafia. Also, Smashbard has lost a ton of the townread on him today, with Eleison never having one in the first place.

In any case, if the Mafia chooses to kill the other mason, that means they have no chance of hitting a power role, assuming that any such exists. If there's a cop or a doc, that's solid gold in usefulness to town.

Anyhow, I'm starting to lean heavily towards them being scum. Why, you ask? Simple:

Why would real masons ever out both at the same time?

[NJAC]

@Maenara: I admit I've been tunneling a lot with you. One of the main reasons for this is because you've jumped/supported/advocated convenient wagons, and you're doing it again with the masons, so still suspicious about you... But I want to think you do that because of self-preservation or some other reasons.

Take a stance on the masons then and tell me who we should lynch today and exactly why. If you can develop a little about the info we'll get with their flip, and why that's a better lynch than whoever, then I'll start believing you're leaning a bit less scum...

I mean: say you're town, and we depend of you, it's your decision which will make us win or lose, who will you vote and why? Also how are you going to convince us to vote with you?

P-Edit: who are we lynching then?

[Maenara]

1) I jump on convenient wagons because it's interesting to see how people react under pressure. Sadly, others seldom seem to join me on said wagons, which of course makes me wonder why they're called convenient in the first place. In any case, there's a difference between joining a wagon and staying there until someone is lynched. Day 1 was a mess, but I'm fully satisfied with the D2 lynch; we needed someone everyone could agree on, and Shinori really was the best choice.

2) Depending on me is stupid. Depend on Buldermar or Theo, depending on which side you lean to. Duh.

3) Eleison. If they turn out to be masons, Smashbard is more useful alive (If they leave him alive) than Eleison is.

[Maenara]

...which, of course, begs the question of why I have yet to

UNVOTE: Dividizzle
VOTE: Eleison

There.

[NJAC]

2) Depending on me is stupid. Depend on Buldermar or Theo, depending on which side you lean to. Duh.

What do you mean here?

[Smashbard]

If you are to lynch a mason, which is a horrible idea, then I volunteer. After I flip, I will be sorely be dissapointed in you guys if Elieson dies tonight as a confirmed mason and no protective role tries to save him.

[Smashbard]

The whole reason I didnt offer myself as day 2s lynch to confirm one of us was because The Mafia would just kill the 2nd mason night 2 and my lynch would be in vein. You will gain no info on a mason lynch if you cant protect the other.

[Smashbard]

I really gotta thank Buldermar though, his suggestion and the responses to it just solidified my scumreads.

[buldermar]

I need to make some things clear. I'm not outright advocating lynching a claimed Mason. I thought we needed to discuss the possibility, and am very pleased with the debate currently going on. I've not yet made up my own mind on the matter.

Jun, I apologize for my behavior and will try to be more tolerant in the future. However, I want to underline that I still advice you to stop the outrageous accusations and fallacious conclusions. You think that I'm scum for trying to defend CE, which I didn't, and you think I'm scum for pushing a Mason lynch, which I didn't.

Smashbard, I realize that you feel you should volunteer due to outing your mason partner a bit early, but this is anti-town behavior - not because you volunteer, but because you're suggesting that we're lynching the most active mason. If we're lynching a mason, I don't see a reason for it not to be Eleison, as he's the least active of the two of you.

Also, I think there is a reasonable chance that we simply don't have an investigation role. However, if we do I

strongly

advice investigating one of the claimed masons, should we not lynch one of them. By doing so, we either get two confirmed town roles or two confirmed scum roles.