Mini 1390: Game Over

[Cheery Dog]

It had to be done

Why?
Are you two buddies so something?

[Cheery Dog]

Nope, I don't feel like using my vote randomly today.
Well not unless I find something worth perhaps pursuing within someone's post.

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: Abaddon

You agree they're scum but not voting them?

[Cheery Dog]

Eh, not convinced on that count. The chainsawing is TOO obvious to be real. More likely he's just an idiot.

So I'm an idiot for calling you out for doing something idiotic like leaving your vote in rvs while attacking someone?

Vote Cheery Dog

Stalking me, are you!?

No I'm stalking someone from one of my newbie games

[Cheery Dog]

That's no the only plausible explanation. You may have not actually wanted to place your vote there (with possibly both of you being scum), however you were called out for it and then you did.
I'm not a mindreader so I don't know if it was just forgetful or deliberate. I'm currently going with deliberate with a forgetful backup plan.
I realise you will probably argue this back at me, but I still won't know if it is true or not.

[Cheery Dog]

You say this like it's just an example of a plausible scenario, but I'm getting the impression by you saying you think it's deliberate that you actually think this. So, am I right that you actually think Abaddon is my scum buddy or why else do you think he was being deliberate by not voting me?

The other option of him doing deliberately as scum is that he would know you are town and just pushing without actually being on the wagon.
I feel it's more likely out of the two options that you are buddies, my vote went on him because he had more votes on him at that stage - and I see more scummy intent from his post.

[Cheery Dog]

How would you feel about Radelle if Abaddon hadn't left out his vote? Do you actually find Radelle scummy (and if so, why?), or are you just drawing this conclusion from associative tells? Also, how likely do you think it would have been for Abaddon to get away with all of this?

Yes I had found Radelle slightly scummy with their post, because she was trying to get you to cast a vote for apparently serious reasons when I wasn't participating in RVS.

[Cheery Dog]

He's not likely to get away with it because I am still pressuring him, however dependant on how the game flows, there is a chance it may be forgotten.

[Cheery Dog]

That's how I read the question (which I had managed to skip on when answering the questions - they were that good)

I would guess that around a third of the players would have ignored it, if they had been online when it happened the conversation mnay have drifted onto something else, thus leaving it open for a late comer to pick it up a few pages later.

[Cheery Dog]

I guess that means not liokely at all - but I am seeing the fallback 'oops I thought I did oversight' vote as part of his plan for not doing it.

[Cheery Dog]

Confusion, though that may actually have been caused by me.

[Cheery Dog]

The only problem I see with it the timezone question.

@Sable why do you want to know people's timezones and when we can post?

[Cheery Dog]

UNVOTE:
My small semblance of a case about forgetting a vote isn't enough to leave my vote there at the moment.

Ithink this is basically a prod dodge post, currently the only players I read as having got out of being null are Tommy & toxic both of whom have headed town.

[Cheery Dog]

because I don't know what to make of his posts.
Nothing has stick out to me and therefore it makes it null.

I realise this is theory stuff and probably not what you're looking for, but if I had found something that stuck out I woyld have had a read. I don't have any specific posts that make him be the null read, he just is

[Cheery Dog]

Townie reactions would be the same no matter what the alignments concerned were. I don't know what scum reactions would be like in either case (but it's not my reaction test go I wouldn't have had something in mind)

Anyway that argument is going no where.

I am finding it odd that parama couldn't catch up 3 pages - smells faintly of caught scum
VOTE: parama

[Cheery Dog]

He had only two votes before yours. What are you talking about?

Tommy's case on him was a few posts up from it.
(and I had thought that there were 3 votes on him for some reason, but that doesn't actually matter)

[Cheery Dog]

I assumed the amount of times I have seen the timezone question asked and then attacked in.RQS, that out must be bad.
now that someone has pointed out how it can be useful to y town and not just for scum quick hammers at endgame, I am happy to drop the point. (well I have already, but I may as well state it now.)
I still don't see it as completely useful though, as if something isn't answered within 24 then the timezone doesn't actually matter anyway, the person is still probably lurking.

[Cheery Dog]

Cheery is this your first non-newbie?

I've played to completion 5 non-newbies.
Three of which were micros, one mini normal and one open.

What does this actually add other than a little bit of endgame theory?

It added the reason why I had found out sable's timezone question bad, as it had been brought up, I gave my reasoning as to why I posted that.

It's not a rhetorical question if it prompts him to do something, which could be either A) Explain himself away some more, or B) Actually start scumhunting and developing proper reads, rather than jumping on the easiest solt he can find.

Of course he could also totally ignore it, which would solidify his scumhood in my eyes.

I do my scumhunting with rhetorical questions, generally those are in fact my reasons for thinking a post is scummy just in question form.
Depending on how they are answered, they often don't actually need followed up.

[Cheery Dog]

So the only scum hunting you've done is in your Post 18, where we were arguably still in RVS? Your question to Sable was why he wanted timezones, which you conceded to be a fair enough point, which wasn't very scumhunter-ish. If the only scumhunting you've done all game is in RVS, tell us why we shouldn't string you up.

With does not translate to exclusively.

You can string me up if you want, this is how I play until I catch my place in a game as town, and quite likely the way I will play when I actually am given a scum role. (but I have no proof of that, my guess it would happen quicker) I am a mostly reactive player.

How does conceding to something even break my use as a scum hunter?
I ask questions which allow options for town motivation to show through with the answers as well as my original thoughts as to why I asked the question. It's not a magic "ask question -> receive scum" system

[Cheery Dog]

Tell me, Cheery. Who else do you think is scum and why?

My small reads list in Post 110 is still mostly true. Yes I haven't completed identified any scum yet.
Noone has made any posts in which they become obvscum, so I'm still biding my time in waiting (although they may not come). For now I am pretty much being useless town, if you want to lynch me for it, go ahead.

My suspicions are currently amongst the major wagons, and I haven't worked exactly why I am suspicious of them yet. I'm also not in the mood to go and actually check or make cases.

[Cheery Dog]

Why do you swipe the slate clean when replacements happen?
Looking at the spreadsheet you posted, you had Parama with lowering numbers, which I would have thought should still be affecting your read of that slot.

[Cheery Dog]

The game hasn't completed yet, to be honest.

So why did you bring it up? I am assuming that it is one I have died in because otherwise there is no chance you know I am town. and I only truly believe I was useless in one of those games, so I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Hopefully it finishes soon so you can actually show us, otherwise whichever game that is has no point to even be brought up.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm liking Absta's posts, which is telling me I probably got my read wrong on parama's replace out post.

unvote

TheTrollie is playing a lot more actively than I saw him as town in Best Athletes Mafia, although since he ended up being replaced there that's not a valid argument, however I will be watching him.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery and Toxic: neither of you want to know why I think you are scum? I have not said it till now so surely you should want to know?

I had though you had actually already explained, either that or you were using other peoples cases.
I'm not really concerned with what your reason is at the moment, but if you do vote me, then I would like to know this reason.

[Cheery Dog]

Stop making any arguments that stem from "trollie called CD town" until you can show me where i said that. If anyone is able to find a post where i call CD town I will post pictures of me wearing a mascot Bear head while MattP beats me with a broomstick

This was easy - I expect those pictures now

Cheery & Abaddon both town

[Cheery Dog]

I'm also confused why you're saying you didn't look at my scum meta because you didn't have to - yet you looked at my town meta, when you didn't have to do that either.
and the fact if you looked at my wiki, or all my games, you'll see that I don't actually have any scum meta..

Looks like you wanted to have me as a town read when I flipped town and looked at my last game to find reasons for me to be town, and now that you've been pressured you decided to rid yourself of calling me town by saying you're defending me only because the case against me is crap.

VOTE: thetrollie

[Cheery Dog]

He's been saying there was no good case against you since at least Post 162. That didn't just come out of nowhere. Do you have any other reasons for finding him scummy? You reasoning (and scum hunting) leaves much to be desired. I feel like you don't even believe yourself half the time when you vote.

I never said it came out of nowhere, that is the post where I think he was looking for reasons for me to be town, although the safe for now comment at the end of that can be seen as how trollie is saying it was that the case on me was bad, it can also been seen how delta is saying that it's him having a town-read on me.
When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.
Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town. (although I personally don't think this is a good reason)

I remember you saying you had a slight suspicion of Radelle early in the game. You haven't really pursued Radelle at all, though. Is it fair to say you have a town read on Radelle? If so, what are the main flaws you see in the case against her? Does anyone currently voting for Radelle strike you as scummy (and why)? What about the case against Abaddon? How do you feel about the other arguments against TheTrollie?

I believe Radelle's defences have been good, so yes it is safe to say I have a town read on them now. As for the people voting them, I'm not sure about sherlock yet, however I believe you are still town, trollie is scum for above reasons and minor scumminess from abaddon, although the case against him doesn't really do much to convince me of his scumminess - actually I had him as possible partners with parama last I looked closely at him, I guess since my main reason for him edged on that, he is back to null since I believe absta is town.

What other arguments are actually against thetrollie? I thought it was all to do with the defence of me.

You're looking at a lot of little things and putting too much stock into them. We've got a much bigger picture to deal with here. I don't know where you really stand on some of the bigger issues that have taken place in the game.

I'm unable to look a the big picture until I'm fully emerged myself into the game by looking at the little things, which I now believe I have, if I'm not talking about other big things, it's because I don't believe they are actually that big, or my opinion has been said by someone else and it's not big enough to have posted the same thing twice.

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery

VOTE: Cheery

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

Do you have any games where this has happened to you before?

Other than that it's just so much more activity than thetrollie I've played with before where he was town.

Do you have anymore reasons for thinking he's scum or is this it?

No, but unless it's been proven that people that don't even have town reads on me are also town when they're defending me heavily, I'm going to believe that they must be scum and wanting to keep me alive to switch with in LYLO.

If I had more reasons I would have given them with that post

[Cheery Dog]

Isn't that how this game works?
We find someone we believe to be scum, and unless they're proved otherwise, then we'll continue to believe they are scum. How is believing someone to be scum a bad reason?

I just find the attitude thetrollie has about me is much more likely to come from scum, and I can't see the sense in shooting down all attacks on a null read to be coming from town. However I said in my other posts, I can see a logical reason for scum to be wanting to shoot attacks down on their 'null reads'. (the only problem would be if I'm a PR - I guess if he believed me to me one then it would make sense to shoot down attacks, but that would also involve having a town read)

[Cheery Dog]

I personally think we should keep CD around for a few more days just until we get a better case on him and have more infomation.
However my opionion on how to lynch is currently no one, but that will change soon I hope.

My alignment isn't going to change between now and then, do you actually think I am scum now?
If we require a better case on me, is that also the case for everyone else? If not, why am I special?

[Cheery Dog]

@Cheery Dog: Any response to Post 288?

Obviously not when I decided not to respond to it. You're telling me I don't need to be looking at minuscule details, and then asking me to with your questions, since these theories about how I could play contradict, I decided I wasn't going to bother answering them.

@Idiot, Delta, Cheery, & Abaddon: How do you feel about this vote-count logic?

It's bad logic and you should feel bad.
I feel I have stronger town reads on the people on TheTrollie wagon than those on Radelle wagon. (this may be influenced by the fact I know I'm town, and therefore my town read of myself is confirmed and overrides all others)

You would be better of asking people not on either wagon who wouldn't have a biased opinion by being on said wagon.

[Cheery Dog]

Then he votes for Parama for lurking (post 119) after Parama already replaced out.

I'm not aware how this vote was because he was lurking, I don't recall using that in my reasoning at all.
I did acknowledge the case against him a few posts up from where he asked to be replaced, which included lurking, but him disappearing didn't actually have anything to do with why I voted him.
The main reason for that vote as it says in that post was that he had replaced out. Him he had just ignored the prod I would have thought nothing of it.

[Cheery Dog]

Cherry, Hard to get a read off of you. You seem to use a lot of meta, esp when you are referring to your other games. Why do you keep mententing Scum wants you alive till LYLO? We are only on day 1. That makes me kinda curious about you. Your playstyle tho also strikes me as scummy. Scum do not need to scum hunt, so your "play style" of being reactive just means either waiting for a good bandwagon to strike on or merely defend yourself. Either way those are scum moves.

I have not linked to any of my previous games, they may have been mentioned, but I have not brought them up to show innocence, others may well have because they wanted to examine my play style in detail (or other reasons I do not know), but how does that actually count against me?
I've been mentioning that scum want to keep me alive for LYLO because that's what I believe my scumread of thetrollie is doing with the defending of me based on said meta.

I also have no idea where the rest of your reads and arguments have come from as basically none of them make sense, can you go into more detail into how you reached the conclusions you did?

---

The spreadsheet technique of Jacob's strikes me as null and any read I have of him won't be based on that (he is still sitting at null currently, slightly scum lean, because of his lack of content inside the thread). I can see both Trollie's & Sherlock's arguments as being possibly true, which is why the whole thing is a null result.

[Cheery Dog]

sure thing...I can give more detail after i cook dinner...trying to post and cook...lol....please specify which points you wish for me to clarify and I will be glad to do so .

I think the most confusing one is the abaddon read.
I'm really not sure how any of that works.

changing topics, because I have something else to procrastinate instead of it, I'm probably going to attempt to tackle the questions put to me toxic's 288 today.

[Cheery Dog]

I believe myself to be a loose cannon in terms of where I will sometimes place votes, and can be easily fooled into thinking a certain way. I'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

As someone who has a play style that is currently called scummy quite often, I feel that scum would want me in LYLO as easy mislynch bait. I've tried thinking through other scenarios as to your defence of a null read which led me to this conclusion, but I'm unable to work out why from a town perspective you would be shooting down all attackers for a person you have a null read on (and also not actually give reasons for whom your own vote is on)

@Toxic (from 4 pages ago): I'm not actually sure, I guess it must have come from the gut when reading the defences that I felt they were good. It may also be that I felt the attacks on her were bad. I still have a current (probably gut since I don't think I can explain what it is that I'm finding town) town read on Radelle.

Delta's attack on trollie is about the same reason as mine (although having me as a scum buddy, which is the only problem I have with that case), idiot's makes sense and I don't actually find any problems with his attacks.
At the time Jacob may have also been voting (I don't remember the post number that this stemmed from originally), I didn't really like the reasons given in thread, but when they are hidden on a spreadsheet somewhere it is hard to tell, which means Trollie is possibly right in his opinion of the spreadsheet being scummy.
Abaddon doesn't really give much out with his reasoning and therefore is hard to work out his intent for voting him, and is pretty much only scraping the surface for votes.
kwll (who I know wasn't on the wagon at the time of your post), is just a mishmash of everyone else's reasons, but I'm confused by how he reached all of his reads.

@kwll, I want some more details about abaddon

Ab most of your attacking seem to be either against Trollie which would be a easy lynch consindering his play. but I didnt like the way to attacked Randal for posting about trollie.

Is him attacking trollie town or scum play?
Where did Radelle post about Trollie for him to have attacked about it? and where is said attack for this?

[Cheery Dog]

'm not actually sure how well I go at LYLO as I've only been there once, in which I was being led by one of the scum players. Although I didn't vote that game, they had almost convinced me (as they did the town that did vote wrongly) that the other town member was scum after we were going after his partner.

can you provide this link?

I shot down the arguments on you because they were bad, and because I did not want a lynch to happen for bad reasons that people mistook for good reasons. This is different than DEFENDING YOU, i was not defending you, i was holing arguments to a higher standard than the players calling you scum

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=23516 (now kwll can say I'm referring to meta if he so wants since I've provided this link)

I find shooting down arguments to be a defence. If you were using them to attack back then it wouldn't be as much a defence, but you've just been saying they are bad.

[Cheery Dog]

you guyz type fast.... Trollie...was that directed at me...I was writing a response to cheery

You should use the quote button then, I thought you were talking to toxic.

I can't even tell which part of my post you're talking about

[Cheery Dog]

@kwll I still doesn't understand how that relates to what you posted after you were prodded. It's looks like you've build that post up from scratch and that your reads on 14 are what they first turned out to be, a mish mash of idiotking's reasonings and a few extra spices thrown in where they don't fit.

and thetrollie is going to be back at L-3 because of your #391 where you unvoted.

[Cheery Dog]

@CD: if you think being alive in-and-of-itself goes against your win condition, why not vote yourself? I get this question is kinda dumb but if you dont trust yourself why in the world should we let you live?

(because I don't know what I'm on about half the time)

I don't think me being alive goes against my win condition, it may just also go for other people's win conditions if I'm playing poorly. Which in my history of LYLO's is true.

If I were to selfvote because I doubt my own abilities this much, I'd be better off not playing the game and replacing out.

If you notice I orginally brought it up was because I thought you were wanting to have a weak townread on me to then flip if we both made it to LYLO. I'm seeing your whole thing as a towncred gaining idea for when I am lynched (which happens a lot as you say with players like me) and flip town.

[Cheery Dog]

Your right....have a question...lynch all lurkers?

If lurking is the only thing against them, no.

If you have a high level of belief they are scum because of what they have done when they have posted, yes.

(active lurkers are a different story though)

[Cheery Dog]

VOTE: absta101

Go go flashwagon!

Why are you so eager based on Parama's early play to have this going?
If you regarded absta as an entirely different player, what would your read of him be?

[Cheery Dog]

I believe I've already stated my reasons somewhere.

and the reason why I'm voting you over Abaddon doing the same thing is that you continued to do it over multiple posts. I also happen to like how Abaddon defended himself from doing it. Whereas you linked to a game of mine where I was called town during day 1 for playing the way I do (which ended up becoming scummy day 3), and therefore I don't see how my play that game actually relates to my play this game since I will react differently to being called scummy rather that being called town.

[Cheery Dog]

I'll just fetch my opinion from my own ISO.

I'm also confused why you're saying you didn't look at my scum meta because you didn't have to - yet you looked at my town meta, when you didn't have to do that either.
and the fact if you looked at my wiki, or all my games, you'll see that I don't actually have any scum meta..

Looks like you wanted to have me as a town read when I flipped town and looked at my last game to find reasons for me to be town, and now that you've been pressured you decided to rid yourself of calling me town by saying you're defending me only because the case against me is crap.

VOTE: thetrollie

When people defend me more than I've actually defended myself, it comes across as suspicious as if they want to keep me alive until LYLO and pull a switch on.

There we go, while I'm not entirely confident in the second quoted reason (since now I have a game ended where a town member was defending me more than I defended myself. I still wanted to call him scum even after he became confirmed town) It also doesn't actually help my reasoning when I've known he was town since before this game started, but at least he claimed to have a town-read on me.

The scum trollie would be trying (weakly) to prevent my lynch to get towncred for when I flipped town.

[Cheery Dog]

I thought there had been more people voting me than that.
Point taken.

[Cheery Dog]

The mafia goon sample says it's night talk. (if you open the spoiler)

Day talk & no talk are probably there if we have lovers or neighbourhoods.

[Cheery Dog]

I feel it might be useful to point out that game was 3 years ago.
Now lets get back to the game at hand.

[Cheery Dog]

I see we did end up with an extension, damn that means I didn't need to be waking up earlier than normal this morning to see where I stand today.
But since I'm here I don't trust the attitude thetrollie was using in his claim, but since it is a confirmable role I'm not sure what to do. I think I'll leave my vote where it is for the moment.

[Cheery Dog]

I now think Cheery Dog's Parama vote was distancing. We saw Cheery Dog happily accept in post 521 that he had no case on TheTrollie, but he's been entirely uninterested in moving his vote. Now he's fine with voting for a claimed power role. I predict a Cheery-absta team, and would equally happily lynch either of them.

The rest of my post may help you figure out why I haven't moved my vote.

I also have not liked Trollie's tone when defending the apparent lack of a case against him, while I know it is frustrated, I have been trying to work out in my find if the frustration is coming from town or scum. At the moment I feel that is more likely to be scum frustration about not knowing how they've been caught.

I also don't have a case against absta, and am thinking him more likely town currently, and I'm not convinced by the cases that have been given against him.

[Cheery Dog]

Good job town. I think my reads ended up right on endgame, but I was spoiled with some information
Though o think I might have figured out what was happening after the cop guilty claim.

[Cheery Dog]

I would have continued to scum hunt you maybe, I think to think I was analysing post while dead anyway, though the fact mod spoiled the dead thread slightly meant I knew what I was looking for.

I think town just actually came to their senses after day 2, none of the scum were really actually posting that much and town was attacking themselves, town flips on all the major suspects can really make people analyse the previous part of the games more. I don't know if people did that (well Sherlock went and did after the slandaar and toxic flips, but it can happen before the actual scum flips.