NY Mafia 155 - New Age Mafia II - Game Over!

[Rhinox]

baa~a~a~a

vote: agar

[Rhinox]

So I claim now right?

VOTE: Tierce

confirm vote: agar

stalling scum

---------------------

For serious though, I'm not liking umoms complaining about a slow start while not doing anything to fix it, while also complaining about something that actually *could* speed up the start of the game (aka the agar wagon)

unvote, vote umoms

oh I can probly change my sig now huh

[Rhinox]

Can you clarify your logic a bit

I meant the agar wagon could acomplish something but umoms was complaining about it. I didnt mean his complaining would acomplish anything. So he's complaining about things being slow, and complaining about things that might fix that "problem". He's not doing anything to fix the problem. Capiche?

[Rhinox]

lulz

yeah so can someone hammer please?

Yeah... I was gonna say, if it was a reaction test, umoms failed.

[Rhinox]

Yeah... I was gonna say, if it was a reaction test, umoms failed.

What exactly am I supposed to be reacting to? I couldn't really give less of a shit about a page 3 lolynch wagon.

A good start might be to actually address the reasons people think you're scummy.

[Rhinox]

nice omgus

[Rhinox]

What the fuck is this shit?

I don't know, what the fuck is it? You didn't actually say anything about it at all.

[Rhinox]

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

[Rhinox]

What do you think about the point I brought up about umoms?

you brought up a point about umoms? i was under the impression that he called out your bullshit and you chalked it up to wifom

nah man he whined and omgus'd me without actually addressing anything. Idk where you're coming up with this wifom you think happened but I didn't chalk anything up to wifom ever.

More importantly, why are you answering for agar?

Or if you really feel the need to answer you can at least say why you think my point was bullshit. You asked me to clarify my comment which I did. Were you not interested in the answer?

[Rhinox]

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

VOTE: Rhinox

His RVS posting looks extremely forced in light of more recent stuff of his.

Explain?

[Rhinox]

Also, this redff wagon is bad and people should feel bad.

redFF: 1 (Flameaxe)

wow what a wagon.

unvote, vote redff

dumb? or scummy?

redff is dumb for sure. But mostly I'm just interested in exploring why JD seemed to overreact to one vote on red.

I don't see any evidence of Rhinox looking for motivations--he's jumping on actions and declaring them scummy without showing how, if ever, said actions further the scum cause. He's more interested in criticism than in finding scum.

So would you say your post shows evidence of looking for my motivation, or shows how, if ever, my actions further the scum cause? >.>

I don't know what you mean about more interested in criticism than finding scum. I think umoms is scummy and I've explained why. What part do you have a problem with? Can you show me examples of what you're saying I'm doing here?

I've been trying to get actually responses/discussions about things because thats how I play. When people react with "what the fuck is this shit" or "you're just making things up as you go" - that stuff is just useless rhetoric meant to look like you're doing something when you're not doing jack shit. "what the fuck is this shit" says nothing about what you think the problem is or why. "you're just making things up as you go" isn't even trying. Unfortunately this is the type of play thats the acceptable and "cool" way to play in the current meta. Its just not how I play.

[Rhinox]

Why add a vote yourself instead of voting JDodge, then, if you're 'exploring' JDodge's behavior?
<snip>
This is an example of the pointless snippiness and lack of explanation. You are railing against JDodge's description (why, even if it is inaccurate? Why is this wrong descriptor worthy of 'exploration'?) and voting redFF... why?

I wanted to see how JD would react if the wagon got bigger, before explaining. Idk if anyone is scummy for JD's comment, but I thought maybe it could point to a connection between the 2, or maybe just JD isn't paying close attention to whats going on. Usually people don't try to shoot down wagons of 1, thats why I wanted to explore. I could have simply asked "whats so bad about one vote on redff", but sometimes people give stronger responses to provocative statements than neutral questions, and sometimes its the only way to get a response at all. Why do you have a problem with my "pointless snippiness and lack of explanation" (in your words) but no one elses?

Why is this more likely to come from scum than town?
<snip>
Your one point was that he acted lazy at the beginning of the game. Again, why do you think this is scummy?

Town shouldn't sit around complaining about nothing happening, they should be trying to make something happen.

And then when stuff is happening (the agar wagon), town shouldn't be trying to disuade it if they're not trying to move the game forward in other ways.

If we all played like umoms, we'd still be sitting in the RVS twiddling our thumbs, and scum want the RVS to last as long as possible.

Why does his lack of reaction to a quickwagon make him scum?

I didn't like his reaction because some of the votes had actual reasons and he (and others) dismissed the whole wagon as "page 3 lolynch wagon". I felt like he was just trying to ignore it until it went away, and was trying to stick it to everyone by intentionally not giving a reaction. (see here

It was not OMGUS. He analyzed the wagon of people voting him and went for the person he believed was opportunistic scum. Would you call OMGUS if umoms voted anyone else in that wagon?

Well I respectfully disagree. I don't know where you pulled that explanation for umoms vote from, but that isn't what he said. He decided he didn't like the reasoning for my vote because BS rhetoric that doesn't make any sense ("you're just making things up as you go"), and because I was the one poking him to contribute something and he didn't like it I'm obvscum.

Your last question is irrelevant and unanswerable. The target of a vote doesn't define whether a vote is omgus.

And neither do you.

Actually I did:

When people react with "what the fuck is this shit" or "you're just making things up as you go" - that stuff is just useless rhetoric meant to look like you're doing something when you're not doing jack shit.

But this is just bullshit anyways. Agar decided my original comment was something he had something to say about, but managed to not actually say anything about it. I was trying to see if he actually had a problem he could explain, or if he was just hopping on the "train of negative reactions towards anyone who voted umoms for a reason". Which is pretty much trying to determine Agar's motivation behind his post which is what you say I'm not doing but whatever.

Why are you having an issue with JDodge not clarifying stuff when you don't clarify stuff yourself?

I made a statement, which JD misinterpretted and asked me to explain. I did clarify my original statement, but JD ignored my answer and just continued on calling my point bullshit. Why ask a question if you're not interested in the answer?



Look I see what you're trying to do here but you've completely missed the point, and I think you know it. I'm not trying to not clarify things, and I've given clarification when asked. There are big differences between the things I've been asking for clarification about, and the things you've been saying I haven't been clarifying. Even my redff vote, which you called pointless snippyness, I do things like the to provoke responses and get people to ask questions about it. "What the fuck is this shit" and "calling out your bullshit" and "just making things up as you go along" - those are all also pointless snippiness that you've ignored, and the difference is those seem to all have no greater reasoning behind them other than getting in a potshot with no intention of providing justification.

[Rhinox]

As for massclaim, I've been saying I've wanted to try one of these D1 mass claims to see if they're really beneficial, but I'm not sure this is the right game to try.

[Rhinox]

I've been in a few games where people have suggested immediate massclaims with convincing reasons (CTD and empking), and it never happens. In the past I've been knee-jerk against it because tradition, but lately I've been wanting it to happen just to see if it really works out like those suggesting it say it will. I'm just not sure this is the game to try and thats all I've got to say about it.

[Rhinox]

OK sure lets do it.

[Rhinox]

Oh and I should mention I'll have semi-limited access this weekend but I'll check in from my phone, just don't expect anything that takes a lot of words or quotes to post.

[Rhinox]

Neighbor with an additional ability (my neighbor doesnt know about my extra ability by the way). I really don't think I should claim it though.

Popcorn umoms

[Rhinox]

Wow whatever its not like i can even draw a nk at this point anyways. I'm factional bulletproof. I can't be nk'd by mafia. I can be lynched or vigged or killed by any faction other than mafia if they exist but idk if that means there are for sure multi factions or not.

Fos glork (+others? On phone too lazy to go look) for starting massclaim and calling for a lynch before completing the massclaim.

Actually who am i voting? Redff? Eh doesnt matter

unvote vote glork

[Rhinox]

We'll spend the rest of the day today debating over whether or not Rhinox is using this claim as a coverup for being the godfather or SK

I don't see how that should be a discussion topic at all today. If you think I could be GF with my claim you didn't read it closely enough. As for SK, lol @ SK hunting on D1. And there are much better fakeclaims for SK's to make.

Why didn't you speak up about your massclaim reservations before massclaim started?

[Rhinox]

Ok Popcorn to Agar then.

unvote, vote umoms

[Rhinox]

I didn't think I agreed with IAUN's "he said claim" tell, until nhammen's response looked like an admission of guilt.

unvote, vote nhammen

Singer, why haven't you claimed yet?

[Rhinox]

Speaking of which, singer still hasn't claimed.

[Rhinox]

And frankly, the number of situations in which this happened/didn't happen is not statistically significant, IMO.

This is true, the accusation itself is kinda crap, but nhammen justifies the accusation by trying to counter it, when he could have just said this:

Either way, this is a bad argument.

and been done with it.

[Rhinox]

So, what you are saying is if someone accuses me of something, I shouldn't respond to it and should just say lolno instead? I do not agree with this at all. If I see a logical argument which I know is false, I will use logic to show everyone that it is false.

You didn't use logic to prove iama wrong. You used logic that ended up just showing that iama was being logical, and then just tacked on your "lolno" at the end regardless.


gah I wanna lynch nham but..

unvote, vote singer

because she needs to claim or die.

She never said she was against massclaim (although she called it a shitfest even that was after she thought it was *over*). She even used the massclaim early on to avoid posting content. Now she's just ignoring all discussion about why she hasn't claimed.

[Rhinox]

You seriously don't see how my argument disproved his argument? Care to read it again and explain why?

No I don't. I see you list some examples that support iama's case actually and a skethcy haiku claim that doesn't really count. Then at the end of your post you say the sample size is too small and either way its a bad argument. Nothing you posted actually refutes iama's evidence at all. So why bother trying to find evidence to prove iama is wrong if your fallback is that its a crap point?

But like I said from the beginning, I don't think iama's point is a valid tell, but I think you reacted like caught scum.

[Rhinox]

Glork:

Of the actual claimed roles, we have...
2 informative rower roles (one one-shot)
2 "protective" rower roles (but not really)
1 roleblocker
1 one-shot vig
9 vanilla townie (1 neighobr included)
1 Innocent Child


This already seems like the absolute maximum power we can expect, unless the game is full multiball. (Right now I'm thinking Mafia+SK.)

Given that this is how you feel about the claims (

and your reaction to my partial claim

), how do you feel about singer softclaiming a PR that "we probably don't want her to claim".


Also this:

Especially considering the fact that I can (theoretically) just be confirmed by a cop, so...

Lynch it with fire!

[Rhinox]

Was prodded. Semi-vla this weekend but i can keep up on my phone.

I'd rather lynch singer over nham now. She's just posting lots of stuff now trying to escape lynch on the grounds of stuff=town. Given that shea one of 2 lynches before deadline its rediculous that she still hasn't claimed.

[Rhinox]

hmm. Was planning on voting simenon today but singerscum would make me disinclined to do so. I don't want to get spiraling too far ahead of myself with what-ifs so I'll wait for confirmation of no gambit on the guilty and a claim from singer.

[Rhinox]

*twiddling thumbs*

want to hammer singer but honoring requests to wait.

If singer and nham are the same scumgroup, tierce seems like scum for avoiding both wagons yesterday as the day was winding down. Tierce, Bella, and psyche are the only 3 living players off either wagon at lynch. Doesn't really make sense for psyche if singer flips scum, and Bella is innocent child so... Not sure how the gunsmith result plays in though, but I'm pretty much looking at tierce and the nham wagon (especially the late jumpers) for any remaining mafia assuming 1 mafia group. Singer could be a second faction or 3rd party though which would make more sense IMO than running up 2 mafia of the same faction and there being so much apathy about it. Which is why we really just need to lynch singer to know for sure. I tend to get lost in working out all the what-ifs.

his nhammen read goes from
<snip>

Yeah you have a good point if singer is another faction other than scum with nham, but it doesn't make any sense at all if singer IS scum with nham especially if scum PR. Doesn't make any sense at all for scumSimenon to backpedal away from nham only to push on another scum partner in singer (assuming singer is scum and partner with nham blah blah obligatory spelling out assumptions wtf can we please just lynch singer now so we know for sure what we're dealing with and not have to make these assumptions at all).

I want to lynch Rhinox tomorrow half for his play and half for his claim. It's pretty fucking weird to have a faction-specific immune town neighbor; seems like less of a stretch to have a serial killer neighbor. I feel the lack of a second kill is explainable by (if there is an SK) the SK targeting either Primate or Primate's target (I'd assume that Primate's target was Psyche; if so, then we can assume that the serial killer doesn't have immunity to standard investigations) moreso than it is by Stag blocking whoeverthefuck it was he blocked.

Seems like its more like 100% for my claim. This is all bullshit outguessing the mod, and really still 3rd-party hunting when there isn't even evidence there is a 3rd party in the game? I shouldn't have to explain how dumb that is. You also seem to be assuming that singer isn't an sk. And you're trying way too hard with too many baseless assumptions to prove that an sk doesn't have investigation immunity therefore implying the hypothetical sk must have something else implicating me for being bulletproof.

Or.. what hoopla said better than I :shrug:

[Rhinox]

Nope. If anything, tierce is less likely scum for that.

what makes you think that?

[Rhinox]

Because, if the two wagons at near-deadline are scum, it's not like you're going to start up a mislynch - why not go for the brownie points for bussing?

I wasn't just talking about near-deadline. Starting about here when nham and singer were the 2 leading wagons with about 6 votes each over a week before the lynch and deadline, and tierce is going off trying to start a redff wagon. Before that and for most of the week leading up to the lynch tierce doesn't actually take a solid stance on either of the top 2 wagons at all. My belief (based on past experiences) is that its an akward position for scum to be in, where you don't know what to say because you don't want to bus too quickly when another outcome is still possible, but you don't want to defend too strongly in case your partner gets lynched.

Examples of what I'm talking about:
Still ~ a week before deadline, only mention of nham:

As town, you can admit that something you do can be perceived as scummy. Yes, nhammen could have dismissed the accusation, but countering and discussing it does not make him scum.

A couple mentions of singer:

Hoopla, why is singer's claim more important to you than the fact that Quagmire has refused to claim?

Kinda a chainsaw type defense

Hey Stag--why is BBM town? Why Quil? Why was UT scummy? You're spewing reads onto the thread and I've yet to see some decent reasoning for them. (Side note--as I go through this, I end up scrolling down to see JD making pretty much the same questions. More townpoints for JD etc.) Also also also--what I just found in your ISO, all your references to me:

Flameaxe--why singer over red?

^^^ The 2 above questioning scumreads on the singerslot

Would vote singer, bv310, scooby, all three by sheer strength of being utterly useless so far. However, there is a caveat on singer--she pulled pretty much the same uncooperating BS in Mafia Behind the Maiden. Glork has alluded to this. She can be obnoxious, obstructive and stubborn, but that doesn't make her scum. Worse than that--singertown doesn't react to pressure to step it up. That's a stupid compromise wagon that is likely to hit town. Votes on Staeg please and thank you.

very wishywashy overexplanation about singer, casual mention of her other 2 compromise lynches.

There's also the staeg vote in there.

After prodding from glork a day before the lynch happened:

He's not in my group of solid townreads; I'm short on time for analysis, which means anyone outside that group is a lynch I can live with. Frankly, at this moment I just want to sheep Hoopla and JD because brains + rationality + actually giving a damn, so if they are pushing a viable wagon at deadline, I'll pull a Katsuki-wagonhop.

note: JD was voting singer and Hoopla was voting nham. I mean right here, this is basically the

brownie points

damage control you're looking for. After spending a week pushing other targets and subtly challenging other players' scum reads on the 2 scum wagons, she's OK with both of their lynches. Yeah OK there's no actual vote there but tierce also went on kinda sorta VLA til just before deadline (still stalling hoping for a different outcome to the day?) before the quick chain of voters hopped on nham so in all likelyhood tierce was going to eventually do exactly what you said and bus one of the 2.

[Rhinox]

Don't you dare question my integrity like that, Rhinox. I don't fake V/LAs, that's lying to the mod. I was busy with geocoinfest, a geocaching event that lasted Friday-Sunday.

Get over yourself.

I'm not questioning your integrity infact you never actually declared a V/LA with bold to the mod text or anything, so your grandstanding about faking VLA's and lying to the mod is completely irrelevant.

It's going to be way closer to the deadline before I actually have time to further go through the game, this weekend is geocoinfest time for me. I'll be back after midnight.

Shameless prod dodge, it's geocoinfest weekend.

Not really important, but I generally don't really care about external situations being used as explanations/defenses. Its not because I'm an asshole, I just don't think that having a external excuse for scummy behavior, even if its truthful, actually excuses said. If people have time to post about their troubles in the frame of the game, then A) they have time to be posting about the game, and B) it becomes part of the game to be analyzed and scrutinized. I tend to become uncomfortable with B) when it comes to IRL issues so it has always been my policy to ignore specific reasons; if you have external problems affecting your play you have the option to go on VLA until the issue is resolved or replace out.

Sorry to go off on a tangent but if you're going to make this about ethics then I feel I should explain my position.


As for your specific situation, I never even accused you of lying to the players, so I apologize if it came across that way. As I explained above, I don't care about the reason you weren't at deadline, I noted that you announced intention to be inactive until just close to deadline and hypothesized a scum motivation for doing so. The reason doesn't matter, it could be an outright lie or truthful reason taken advantage of. Neither are inethical moves for scum or a question of your integrity. Its just scum lying to players. Faking VLA is a completely different thing altogether and frankly you had no business taking the conversation there, but here we are.

If its still a problem, then I will formerly retract my hypothesis that you were strategically inactive near deadline to further your scum agenda, but I submit that I still believe you to be a top canditate for scum with singer and nham for the rest of the reasons I provided, and I kindly ask that you refrain from such strawman sidetracks in the future.

[Rhinox]

vote: scooby

The case on Sim is retarded, and scooby's just pushing the same line as yesterday without actually taking anything thats happened into account.

I don't completely like how he tried to hold back his extra ability, but dangled the idea in front of us anyway.

Why would that be something scum would do? I was trying to draw a nk. Why does this apply to me, but you didn't have anything to say about singer dangling the "I have a role you don't want me to claim and just have the cop check me". Actually it was just after that post that you weren't liking the singer wagon anymore.

Find it odd that in 263 he votes for Glork, soon to be claimed neighbor partner. I know neighbors aren't exactly confirmed (or at all confirmed, huehue), but I still find it odd to see someone vote their partner on day one in a massclaim.

Why does this apply to me and not glork who had already voted me?

He managed to avoid both scumlynches iirc.

You don't remember correctly. nham and singer were my top 2 suspects. I was voting singer when nham got lynched, and I didn't hammer singer because ppl had asked for more time.

I could care less about day 1, but his day 2 actions feel odd to me. Post 670 is disgusting. I don't like how a votestall comes from waiting for singer (the person who refused to claim day 1) to claim. Also waiting to see if it was a gambit just seems like wishful thinking to not have to lynch singer, or at least thats how it comes off.

The votestall came from confusion. Because after nham flipped scum I thought singer would be less likely scum, and after talking with glork overnight I was going to vote sim at the start of the day. Then there was the guilty and a number of other people were talking about it possibly being a lolgambit and I didn't want to be basing any decisions on false information. The idea that it was wishful thinking that I wouldn't have to vote singer just seems like you're making things up and not actually reading my play at all. I mean, you think, as scum, I'm going to come out on day 1 and bus 2 of my scum partners and then not actually get credit by being on the lynch, and then on day 2 I'm going to pussy foot around if a guilty is claimed on the other?

[Rhinox]

Flameaxe:

Not sure if you're dumb or scum. You're conclusion that I didn't want to lynch singer is so ridiculous I feel like I must be playing a different game or something.

Reading the post would tell you that I did not like that post, but other reasons had me doubting the wagon at the time. It wasn't that I didn't want to see singer dead, it was that Nhammen simply seemed like the better option.

yeah and switch that around and thats exactly how I felt about singer and nham but somehow you think that equates to I didn't want to lynch singer even though I clearly wanted to lynch singer over nham.

Glork was pretty clearly not voting/wanting to lynch you for anything other than you holding something back in a massclaim. As soon as you fullclaimed, he removed his vote. At the same time, your vote snuck on. It wasn't that I found either of them not odd, yours was much more notable. This reply also seems like a good way of avoiding the real problem of it all.

yeah whatever idc voting a neighbor partner isn't a scumtell so this is just stupid. Tell me, what is the real problem of it all that I'm allegedly avoiding?

Hey look, the bold part showing exactly what I was saying! I don't give two fucks if they were your top suspects.

Exactly what you're saying makes no sense. Context is important.

Even given the stupidity of psyches play at the start of day two, a town player does not think "oh, it might be a gambit".

oh really?

That felt like way too long for that result to come out in a massclaimed game.

Pretty simple. I refuse to believe that you have a guilty on singer.

The thing is, I didn't believe psyche's guilty until singer went...

Nope, not taking you seriously

When I have some time I'll go back through some of Psyche'd past games and see if he has a history of lying as town. Then I'll decide.

My gut says Psyche is gambiting in an attempt to make singer claim and actually play the game instead of posting excuses.

I'll happily vote singer when he confirms 100% he is being truthful.

So, nhammen was scum - nice work iamausername. My gut says Psyche is gambiting in an attempt to make singer claim and actually play the game instead of posting excuses.

I'll happily vote singer when he confirms 100% he is being truthful.

This, exactly this, which is why in like half an hour I plan on running through Psyche's game history to see if he has a track record of gambling as town.

So everyone up there is scum then? All those posts happened before I even posted on D2. Even you were questioning the guilty result. WTF...

So tell me, why doesn't a town player question a guilty at the start of day 2? Why is that something only scum does? And why aren't all the above scum? Why doesn't scum just come out and bus when theres a guilty they know is true?

You continued to avoid the wagon even after that point to wait for a claim that was blatantly never going to arrive. If we spent a week on a massclaim failing to get a claim out of singer, what made you think we were going to get one at the end of day?

This first sentence is a lie. It was less than 24 fucking hours into the start of the day. What part of that is "continuing to avoid the wagon even after after that point to wait for a claim that was blatantly never going to arrive"? And I wasn't

just

waiting for a claim:

*twiddling thumbs*

want to hammer singer but honoring requests to wait.

specific references:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4242195
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4243022
Plus all the actual conversation that was going on. Didn't even say anything about still waiting for a claim.

And then, I didn't get to hammer because scum self hammered. Scum wanted the day to end and self-hammered to cut off conversation. Yet somehow its also scum motivation for me to NOT hammer singer to let conversation happen? does not compute...

As for the claim.. what fucking ever. I was clearly ready to lynch singer D1 despite her not claiming, and I would have hammered her D2 claim or no. At the START OF THE DAY (not the end of the day, idk where you're getting that from) with a guilty and a pile of votes, its just ingrained procedure to ask for a claim. You're putting way too much focus on that one mention in D2 of asking for claim, when clearly the much bigger reason I didn't immediately vote singer was to make sure there wasn't shenanigans going on with the guilty result.

[Rhinox]

On another note, I'm sick of this. I'm leaving my vote and prob won't reply to the next wall of text.

Thats fine whatever its already clear from your last post your on full blown confirmation bias mode, so thanks for sparing me the effort of refuting more crap.

[Rhinox]

gah this is stupid. Flameaxe is dumb and doesn't know what he's doing and the rest of you are just being sheep. No one has given a single reason for why I'm scum that makes any sense at all.

-don't like my claim: idungiveafuk.gif... there's literally no reason whatsoever for me to claim that as scum, the only thing that makes sense is its my actual role.

-voting my neighbor: what is this bullshit?

-pushing to lynch the wrong scum D1: what is this bullshit?

-questioning a guilty (that everyone else was questioning) and not hammering 24hrs into the day and some other made up bullshit about singer not claiming that never actually happened.

Is this really the sort of bullshit that passes for "scumhunting" these days? If so I might as well just sit here and prod dodge until I'm released from my obligation to participate in whatever manner that occurs. I may have sounded like a naive infant way back during the time of the first new age mafia game but at least people cared and didn't cry "OMG WALLPOST TL;DR" if someone dared to post more than a few sentences back then.


Oh and

unvote vote tierce

because despite the gunsmith result and the fact that this is probably a pretty unpopular vote, her D1 actions surrounding both singer and nham make it pretty obvious to me she's scum.

[Rhinox]

@hoopla: Well its the strongest read I have right now and seeing as pretty much no one is going to listen to me at all for the rest of the time I'm alive, I wanted that to be clear in the event I end up getting lynched.

I hadn't really considered bv310 scum, I was more thinking about it being a false negative, and I think there are enough possible reasons other than investigation immunity that makes it not really that much of a low percentage play. And I'm kinda having trouble separating the obvious targets from those I just don't like for reasons that are probably alignment independant.

[Rhinox]

You mentioned scum commuter, I also thought of an unrecruited traitor, roleblocker on bv, rolestopper on tierce,

busdriver or redirector

wait this is a normal isn't it so I guess the last 2 are out.

[Rhinox]

Although his last 2 posts are +++ scumpoints. Posting d1-analysis and then a vote on a competing wagon with a little momentum.

Well fuck you because I've been suspecting rhinos since day 1

Do you really think that consistency is going to save you after I flip town?

bv got a result on Tierce - so that rules out everything you mentioned there except unrecruited Traitor.

I didn't actually realize there was a difference between a no gun result and no result. So fine I guess I concede that maybe its not that likely.

unvote

- The claim is pretty much a safe-claim for scum that gets him out of the vanilla pool since the only way to disprove it is making him dead.

but I already had the neighbor claim why would I need to one-up that with something else additional?

- The umoms vote is pretty much a terrible piece of posting and put him in a bad light early on. Then the whole "hammer umoms!" deal because umoms 'failed a reaction test' (hint: umoms reaction was pretty much 100% town).

I still think umoms was scummy, but hoopla is pretty town. The whole "hammer umoms!" deal was tierce's quote by the way, but I guess it doesn't matter if your facts are straight as long as you ram my lynch through

- The half-claim and then voting Glork deal was bad. Not because Glork was his neighbor, but because what the fuck do you expect to happen in a massclaim when you don't fully claim? Votes will be applied. Terrible retaliatory vote there.

I don't think the half-claim was bad, but what I should have probably done was not say anything at all. For you to say its bad, you're assuming its a fake claim. You don't even bother realizing that it makes sense why I would not want to claim that part of my role seeing that its, you know, real. And I still don't get why half-claiming is bad but refusing to claim at all is no big deal

- D1 he'd rather lynch Singer over Nham. D2, when a guilty is in play, he'd rather not lynch Singer and instead question the guilty.

this is such a misrep and I've already been through it with flameaxe

- Distracts himself from posting real shit to get into a fight over whether fake V/LAs are ethical or not. Not even touching that with a 20 foot pole other than this is time wasted posting non-content.

Thanks Tierce

- Jumps on the lazy scooby wagon, showing no real effort to give any fucks about who is lynched today (If Rhinox is scum, scooby is pretty much guaranteed town).

well pretty much all I have to go on today is sorting through the idiots trying to lynch more for crap reasons today and scooby is the one who has been doing it with the least substantiation and just pushing his lines without actually taking anything thats happened into consideration. And his nham vote fits as late on the wagon bussing partner.

Rhinox's claim: How do you prove it? Have Mafia shoot him. But Mafia aren't going to shoot someone they can't kill. So he can't prove it. Which leads to the whole "This claim is really really odd and I don't like it at all."

"The claim is odd because its unprovable therefore it must be scum"

really?

I can understand the theory there, but he was willing to vote her on Day 1. And then "LOL U GAMBITZ COP" doesn't make sense in the context of him alone.

Right cuz its not like there isn't a whole game full of players giving context. I'm obviously playing this game in a vacuum.

The moment nham flipped scum I figured I was wrong about singer even though I thought she was scummy, because of being the counterwagon. Glork can confirm that thats pretty much what I said about it in our QT N1. Then D2 starts and there's the guilty and like half the town questioning it. Its not like I was all "no I don't buy it its probably a gambit" like you're saying, I just said I was waiting for confirmation that no shenanigans were going on since so many ppl were questioning it. As soon as psyche confirmed he wasn't messing around I was ready to vote like I said in thread but my vote would have been hammer and it was only 24hrs into the day and there was still discussion going on and a few people had asked for no hammer until they had time to give some input.

I really don't see at all how that equates to me not wanting to lynch singer, let alone what would possess me as scum to think that not wanting lynching singer with a guilty (that I'd have no reason to question as scum) in play would even be remotely smart play.

[Rhinox]

I'd actually rather lynch redff than scooby at this point. Scooby's wrong but I'm starting to think he actually thinks he's right. redff hasn't said why he finds me scummy, he's just sheeping bad cases, letting those pushing the bad cases catch all the backlash after I flip town.

vote: redff

Will hammer scooby of course just feel better about a redff lynch now.

[Rhinox]

It can't be any more obvious you guys

Well hell when you put it like that I may just hammer myself

[Rhinox]

Even if there's no SK, a vig (even 1-shot) means I could've be nked by means other than mafia and thats aparently how OGML wanted it. I didn't write the role.

Even after I flip you still won't know with any more certainty whether there's an SK or not until/unless extra kills start to show up. I don't really see how the information of my town flip is going to change anything for anyone. It'd still be retarded to lynch anyone for being an SK unless you know for sure there's an SK, and my death won't give you that information.

[Rhinox]

unvote vote scooby

note: this is L-1

[Rhinox]

Lies...

[Rhinox]

I suppose at this point I'm probably getting lynched in some point in the game regardless so it may as well be today. Some of you will see soon enough just how stupid you're being and the rest of you will be forced to do something other than sheep the pathetic garbage that passes for a case these days.

[Rhinox]

Well I just don't get lynched very often and I don't like letting it happen regardless of the circumstancesm, but its pretty clear my lynch is pretty much inevitable in this game, and there isn't a whole lot I can do to be productive when the only thing to go on is whether we should lynch me or someone else and everything I post is meant with "lol look how obvscum".

I mean its pretty clear to me which faction wants a mafia-nk-immune player out of the game and there's not a lot I can do when people are actually buying into the whole "claim doesn't make sense" nonsense when it doesn't even make sense for me to make such a claim if I'm scum, and other people are just blatently making stuff up regarding my interactions with nham and singer. And some of you are just being stupid.

[Rhinox]

For all the joking "lol I confirm my vote on Agar :shades: :yolo:" stuff, he's still doing his damnedest to create rather tenuous cases to call back to and kill RVS like nhammen did. JD's #40 brings up another good point about this post:

so... you're saying I'm scum for trying to end the RVS because known scum nham tried to end the RVS? You might as well be saying its because we both said "the".

and JD didn't have a point because he didn't actually comprehend what I was saying and neither do you aparently but it doesn't really matter.

Yes, because so many reasons had been given on page four.
umoms' 94 sums up how I feel about Rhinox at this point.

for fucks sake this is why I can't play in there current meta.

I had a reason. It might not have been a particularly strong reason but I wanted umoms to address it so I could read him. It was page fucking 4. I was just trying to play the game the way I know how to play it. What umoms did was basically stick both middle fingers in the towns face going "fuck you guys enjoy your wagon I'm not going to give you guys a damn thing to get a read on me trololo".

I wanted an answer as to why he was sitting around complaining about nothing happening instead of trying to make something happen. I make accusations and question people, I read responses. I don't know how to play the game any other way. umoms wasn't giving any responses, so I asked for one. what in the actual fuck.

Ladies and gentlemen, the most overused term in all of MS history: OMGUS.
OMGUS does not include votes that actually have a reason behind them. The only people who think that are bad players and scum who are ignoring it.

umoms didn't have a reason to vote me other than I was voting him and asked him to address my point, which he never did, he avoided by omgus voting me.

If I voted you right now without address any of your post and just said your case is shit, that'd be called omgus, would it not?

And your unnecessary extra rhetoric makes you sound like a pompous ass, but thanks for the MS history lesson

This is not a claim, this is a "here's a part-claim, but there's more to come if you're good boys and girls and don't lynch me, teehee~"

At this point, that fact that Rhinox withheld any information about his role with the inevitable intention of using this unclaimed "extra power" to dodge a lynch if it occurs makes me want to vote him already, even if he at some point later in this readthrough claims this extra power.

You're just making up interpretations. You're going to believe whatever made up shit you want to believe regardless of what I say but its pretty rediculous that no one sees why I wouldn't want to claim my ability. My lynch wasn't even in the cards at that point and I certainly wouldn't expect a L-1 "by the way my extra ability is bulletproof" claim to change anyones mind at that point. I don't know what makes you think that was my intention other than it sounds good in your fantasy world.

- "Mafia-NK bulletproof" is a terrible role and an incredibly scummy claim because it is devised to make the town go look for a second scumteam (or a Serial Killer, or what-the-fuck-ever else you can think of) and drop attention from the claimant

Well thats my role so you can take it up with OGML if its such a terrible role.

- There is no reason whatsoever for a townie to be safe from anything but other townies

I don't really know what you're saying here. Bulletproof townies exist, I've even been one before. Shit it was even pretty much the exact same as my role here. here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p1253126

I was nk-immune to commandoes (one scum faction) but not predators (the 3rd party faction).

- "I can be

lynched, or

killed or vigged

by anyone but Mafia" - this makes absolutely no sense: bulletproofs don't magically gain lynch invulnerability the moment a single scum steps on the wagon, if they did it would make LyLo with this role virtually impossible to win for scum

what the... really? I mean I guess I can see its worded awkwardly, but it should be pretty clear that I meant it the way I corrected it above. Nobody with a braincell and a half would actually think I was claiming to be lynchproof if mafia were on the wagon.

This is the garbage I have to deal with and people wonder why I get so frustrated with this site.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox. I feel kind of bad. The only reason I'm voting for you is because your ability is bizarre in a game full of conventional roles and the only evidence we have of a third-party killing role is a one-shot vig. Will you forgive me?

</3 FOREVER

As long as I get to bitch and moan in postgame about how bad my lynch is I'm sure I'll (probably) forget all about it by the next game I /in.

[Rhinox]

Thats ok you canhave your chance to show me what works tomorrow.

There's no 'y' in my username by the way, scoobi.

[Rhinox]

unvote vote flameaxe

[Rhinox]

fyi i'm v/la until tomorrow

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, from your conversations with Glork, do you think he is town or scum and why?

We don't really talk a lot in our neighborhood, but I think town. I think the way he thought about the first singer wagon and suspecting sim from it, and then modifying his view of sim after singer flipped scum is a pretty clear town thought process.

vote: redff

[Rhinox]

I'm limited access due to having no computer access at my workplace this week

[Rhinox]

Umm i was prodded so

I dont really think msh is scum at all. I'm happy where my vote is.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, would you ever consider going for any kind of strategy of intentional no killing as SK?

I might no kill once if it seemed like a good situation for it but not perpetually, no.

[Rhinox]

I thought I was already clear in thread why I didn't think MSH's slot was scum. After going to look for the link to where I explained why I didn't think the slot was scum and either I can't find it or didn't actually say it where/how I thought I did. This link is basically the reason though, it was farther back in the thread. The scooby led reasons for voting sim/msh were based on sim's evolving read on nham D1 and I didn't think it made sense for scum to go from pushing one scum to pushing another like sim did. Its like scooby was saying he was scum just for the not lynching nham part, but forgetting he was trying to lynch singer instead who was also scum.

So that was the reason. I was wrong and I pretty much completely suck this game, and I'm too burnt out with mafia in general to do much better right now. You guys can lynch me if you want, or I can replace out if it'd be better for the game but I've been trying not to do that.

[Rhinox]

you're an idiot scoobi. I wasn't making excuses. Glork asked me why I didn't think MSH was scum. Answering a question is not making excuses. And just because I'm burnt out doesn't mean I'm not invested or will just stop playing/caring entirely.

[Rhinox]

(yes he is)

CES why are you so sure I'm town? Everyone else wants me lynched or is pretty meh about me. What in your eyes makes me "doubleplustown"?

[Rhinox]

It makes sense, I always thought there was something off about that singer comment. At the time I assumed it had something to do with her unclaimed role and forgot about it after she flipped. Makes me feel better about being the target of scoobi's relentless attacking knowing it was definitely coming from scum.

vote: scoobi

[Rhinox]

vote: redff

Nope because I've tried to lynch rhinox all game and nobody wants to so im trying something else.

You're both scum doesn't matter who dies first.

Its because I'm town.

And Tierce is probably town too (unless she's scum with quag). If she was scum and wanted to attack the gunsmiths today, scum would have better chances going after quag knowing that glork was out there somewhere with a case to lynch quag. That is, unless quag is also scum with tierce.

[Rhinox]

umm... hi

guess I kinda forgot about this game

[Rhinox]

unvote vote quag

to (hopefully) get a lynch in today before deadline.

I don't see any redff/nham interactions that make me think they can't be scum together. Is it because red popcorned to nham? because I don't really count that as something scum would never do.

[Rhinox]

vote: redff

[Rhinox]

I still don't see why the popcorn thing is in redff's favor. He was clearly bussing nham, and the popcorn is consistent with bussing. He picked nham (and me) because we were "the worst votes on the umoms wagon".

But redff was also on the umoms wagons and claimed to have reasons. see redff iso #1 through #7. Then it became no longer cool to be on the umoms wagon and redff pulled a 180 starting with iso #8. Iama was questioning redff about it up through red iso #18 at least. Then in iso #19 red popcorned to nham. IMO it was all part of the damage control to get iama off his back and look town after nham flipped.

Then the day dragged on and the pressure eased off of red so he thought he could try not bussing by voting me in iso #22.

Other points such as agar first started the whole "rhinox and nham need to die" that redff only started sheeping after it became the cool thing to do, but redff also says agar was a scum read and regretted not popcorning to him instead of nham, and he also voted agar at the start of both day 2, and day 3 when it was pretty clear agar's role was confirmed. It all shows redff is not putting a lot of critical thought into his votes/reads.

If another scum, deciding between glork, KOC, tierce. Tierce may not make sense with redffscum, but could be something like a mafia doctor with 3 goon flips and a vig in the game. Earlier I thought tierce was the scummiest but pretty much got shot down. Glork hasn't been very glork-like most of the game, but I have no idea if he's scum. bv/KOC I also have no idea read-wise. He's almost certainly a gunsmith per glorks recent argument. He could be a mafia gunsmith though.

I really don't see any scenario where I would vote for CES. Jdodge was almost certainly town and that doesn't just go away with a replacement.

[Rhinox]

umm I guess deadline is today. Still not voting CES, and if that leaves glork and KOC...

unvote, vote KOC

[Rhinox]

I just want to know, did any of the scum know I was a traitor?

I played like shit, not proud of this game at all. Just in general, I can't play as scum. I don't know what to do, and I don't know how to get better at it, I don't know how I'm supposed to interact with the town as scum, or how to interact with scum partners, and it didn't help being scum but not being able to converse with the scum team at all. I wasn't inactive due to apathy, I was inactive because I literally couldn't type anything without being so transparently scum apparently. I just didn't know what to say. Pretty much consider me retired due to just not being able to play this game anymore.

[Rhinox]

Huzzah!

I strongly suspected you might be a Traitor, Rhinox. It explained the lack of power of our scum team (I was just a nightkill-immune gf, so that only hurt our side re: investigative roles) and also explained your weird weird claim.

I just read that in the scum QT. Good job figuring it out. I tried to throw out some obscure hints early in the game in case there was a recruitment mechanic and scum knew a traitor existed. (the one I can remember was me saying Capiche to Jdodge, it was supposed to let him know that I knew he was the godfather >.>)

I missed last night that tierce was an sk. Figures my only scum read in the game was actually on scum. I really just don't know how to fake scumhunt at all do I? Can't believe none of us thought about an SK not having a gun.

[Rhinox]

I was thinking about the bulletproof to mafia claim, and I just realized exactly what type of role that would go very well with. A Traitor. It prevents the Mafia from accidentally killing off their own team.

I actually was BP to mafia anyways so instead of preventing you guys from killing me it was preventing you guys from wasting a kill. Turns out after the first day or 2 there was no way in hell I'd have ever been nked anyways but... it just seemed like a very logical claim to make I just wish I'd have executed it better.